On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:26:41 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>FWIW, a computer that can run Windows 7 can very likely run Windows
>10. Windows 11 is another story--it's got very specific hardware
>requirements, which I suspect are intended to churn the market.
>Note--don't get Windows 11 if you can avoid it--I think Microsoft
>tried to reverse the adage that odd numbered versions of Windows are
>good--their _own_ stuff has trouble running reliably on it.

Actually with Microsoft it's not so much odd numbers but every second
version and as you know they've skipped a few numbers along the way.

This isn't unique to Windows - it was also true of MS-DOS before that
and one of my great memories was shocking my son (who is now a
robotics engineer for a major Amazon subcontractor and building them a
new warehouse with all the robotics gear for order fulfillment
locally) with reciting all the versions of Windows going back to the
beginning and saying things like "this one sucked, that one was pretty
good in its day" going back to MS-DOS v 2.1 (which given he's now 30
is about when he was born)

On 4/18/2022 8:39 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:32:29 -0400, J. Clarke
> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:08:21 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:15:36 -0400, J. Clarke
>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 09:08:34 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:32:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>> Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <gs5j5hpeuj6uldn57kkfj7266ud8ditquq@4ax.com>,
>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:10:40 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>>>> Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <snippo>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've got a trackball already. (I don't have room on my tray for
>>>>>>>> a mousepad.) But my right thumb is the one that's *supposed* to
>>>>>>>> depress the left button, and the muscle that would make that
>>>>>>>> happen was the second casualty of my ALS. (The first was my
>>>>>>>> legs.) A secondary thumb muscle still works to depress the
>>>>>>>> button, if I put the thumb exactly on the correct quarter of a
>>>>>>>> square inch of the one-by-two-inches left button, which means I
>>>>>>>> have to look at the trackball to find it. I then have to reach
>>>>>>>> over with my left hand to move the ball *exactly* across the line
>>>>>>>> I want to copy. This task grows less worth the effort as time
>>>>>>>> passes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just did a test in Agent:
>>>>>>> -- move the mouse cursor over the link
>>>>>>> -- press the popup menu button
>>>>>>> -- select "Launch" by pressing the highlighted letter "L"
>>>>>>> ... and the link comes right up!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I have anything like Agent on my several-years-old Win7 box,
>>>>>> nobody has ever told me about it. Nor does my trackball (also
>>>>>> built by Logitech) have a popup menu button: just left, right,
>>>>>> and the ball.
>>>>>
>>>>> Agent is a newsreader (which also does email). Since you post here,
>>>>> you must have "something like it".
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it works the same way, of course, remains to be seen. But, if
>>>>> you are using a trackball to select the link, it must be able to
>>>>> respond to the trackball, including a right-click popping up the
>>>>> context-sensitive menu.
>>>>
>>>> Dorothy uses trn on *nix (I forget which flavor), not something
>>>> designed for a GUI.
>>>
>>> 1. There are such things as character-based UIs that respond to
>>> rodents. I still have the MIX library for building such things around
>>> somewhere. I said nothing about "graphical", although Agent's UI is,
>>> indeed a GUI.
>>
>> That's nice. If you want to rewrite trn to incorporate a context menu
>> go right ahead. It's open source after all.
>
> You are missing the point:
>
> since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
> whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.
>
> The map is not the terrain! Reality wins!

I think I can name some politicians that disagree with you on that. :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:37:40 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:08:54 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <37756da4-78a9-4c08-a4c6-786b5478c36en@googlegroups.com>,
>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:16:48 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>
>>I don't *want* to run Win10. I have heard horrible things about
>>it (though not so horrible as about Win8).
>
>What specifically have you heard? I had Win 8 on my work machine and
>hated it but for me at least the Win 10 move has gone extremely well
>on both work and home machines. Obviously your hardware has to be able
>to handle it but my 10 year old i7 laptop which is far less capable
>than this machine handled it A-OK.
>
>>>Myself, I am hanging on to my previous computer, as I sometimes want
>>>to run some programs I haven't attempted to install on my current system;
>>>that old system was originally bought for $200 used at a local store that
>>>specializes in computers purchased from businesses that replaced them,
>>>and it runs Windows 10. And this is in Canada, where computer stuff usually
>>>costs about 50% more than in the U.S. if one neglects the difference in the
>>>value of the dollar.
>
>This machine is effectively a mid-size file server as I do a lot of
>downloads. My wife's machine is used mostly for e-mail, web browsing
>and Facebook so much less. Both have no trouble with 10.
>
>I don't plan on considering Win 11 until after their first service
>pack. "If it ain't broke..."

There isn't going to be a "service pack". There have been at least
two major updates though, neither of which fixed the issues I'm
seeing.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:39:11 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:32:29 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:08:21 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:15:36 -0400, J. Clarke
>>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 09:08:34 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:32:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>>Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In article <gs5j5hpeuj6uldn57kkfj7266ud8ditquq@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:10:40 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>>>>Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><snippo>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I've got a trackball already. (I don't have room on my tray for
>>>>>>>>a mousepad.) But my right thumb is the one that's *supposed* to
>>>>>>>>depress the left button, and the muscle that would make that
>>>>>>>>happen was the second casualty of my ALS. (The first was my
>>>>>>>>legs.) A secondary thumb muscle still works to depress the
>>>>>>>>button, if I put the thumb exactly on the correct quarter of a
>>>>>>>>square inch of the one-by-two-inches left button, which means I
>>>>>>>>have to look at the trackball to find it. I then have to reach
>>>>>>>>over with my left hand to move the ball *exactly* across the line
>>>>>>>>I want to copy. This task grows less worth the effort as time
>>>>>>>>passes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I just did a test in Agent:
>>>>>>>-- move the mouse cursor over the link
>>>>>>>-- press the popup menu button
>>>>>>>-- select "Launch" by pressing the highlighted letter "L"
>>>>>>>... and the link comes right up!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If I have anything like Agent on my several-years-old Win7 box,
>>>>>>nobody has ever told me about it. Nor does my trackball (also
>>>>>>built by Logitech) have a popup menu button: just left, right,
>>>>>>and the ball.
>>>>>
>>>>>Agent is a newsreader (which also does email). Since you post here,
>>>>>you must have "something like it".
>>>>>
>>>>>Whether it works the same way, of course, remains to be seen. But, if
>>>>>you are using a trackball to select the link, it must be able to
>>>>>respond to the trackball, including a right-click popping up the
>>>>>context-sensitive menu.
>>>>
>>>>Dorothy uses trn on *nix (I forget which flavor), not something
>>>>designed for a GUI.
>>>
>>>1. There are such things as character-based UIs that respond to
>>>rodents. I still have the MIX library for building such things around
>>>somewhere. I said nothing about "graphical", although Agent's UI is,
>>>indeed a GUI.
>>
>>That's nice. If you want to rewrite trn to incorporate a context menu
>>go right ahead. It's open source after all.
>
>You are missing the point:
>
>since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
>whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.
>
>The map is not the terrain! Reality wins!

She isn't using just one system. She's using a Windows system for
some purposes and a BSD system for others. For USENET she's using
BSD, not Windows.

Do try to pay attention.

And I don't recall Dorothy saying anything about launching a link with
a trackball. That was you demonstrating Agent, which she does not
have.

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:15:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:39:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
>> whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.
>
>On top of that, Windows 7 is _not_ a flavor of Unix, at least not
>the last time I looked.

No, the BSD that runs on the system she uses to access USENT is a
flavor of Unix.

Some people _do_ have more than one computer you know.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
>On 4/18/2022 8:39 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:32:29 -0400, J. Clarke

>>>> 1. There are such things as character-based UIs that respond to
>>>> rodents. I still have the MIX library for building such things around
>>>> somewhere. I said nothing about "graphical", although Agent's UI is,
>>>> indeed a GUI.
>>>
>>> That's nice. If you want to rewrite trn to incorporate a context menu
>>> go right ahead. It's open source after all.
>>
>> You are missing the point:
>>
>> since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
>> whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.
>>
>> The map is not the terrain! Reality wins!

Actually, she's using the trackball on a Windows machine. She logs
in to the remote BSD usenet machine from her windows machine with
ssh/putty (or possibly telnet). IIRC, the remote BSD system belongs to someone else.

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:39:11 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>>since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
>>whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.
>>
>>The map is not the terrain! Reality wins!
>
>She isn't using just one system. She's using a Windows system for
>some purposes and a BSD system for others. For USENET she's using
>BSD, not Windows.
>
>Do try to pay attention.

I'm pretty sure that the
the BSD system she uses for reading and responding to USENET posts
is a remote system, managed by someone else, that she logs into from
her windows system over the internet (e.g. with putty).

In article <bdf267aa-d6fd-4c9f-a6ff-755a6c9eb71cn@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:29:49 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> But you don't need it if all you need it for can be done with Meg's
>> laptop.
>
>That's sort of true. But maybe it is inconvenient for Meg to come to
>lend Dorothy her laptop, and so she can only ask for this favor
>occasionally.

As I just told Quaddie in private email, Meg lives in the same
house as us. She and her husband and teen-aged son live upstairs
and we live in the basement in-laws' unit. And she doesn't use
her laptop at work (which would be a bad idea; she works for a
lawyer). So all she has to do is to hand it over on her way to
work.
jj
>Also, if Dorothy wants to browse sites on the Internet, Windows 7
>no longer recieves security updates from Microsoft, unlike Windows
>10, so it really isn't safe to do so with her existing computer.
>
>That's basically why I felt it was worth mentioning that computers
>that can run Windows 10 ought to be available inexpensively.

"Inexpensive," like "efficient," depends on your frame of
reference It would be nice, once we get out of this hole we're
in, to have a laptop that I could put on my lap and type on when
making face-to-face doctors' (or other kinds of) visits. As
happens with ALS, my speech is getting unintelligible; yet another
reason Hal habitually answers the landline and tells the scammers
in a loud voice what he thinks of them.

But it was incredibly kind of you to think of me. Misthlith and
Stillfot send their loudest purrs.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <92cr5hhcl7fudgm1f36afdtr2m5vdjg3or@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:26:41 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>FWIW, a computer that can run Windows 7 can very likely run Windows
>>10. Windows 11 is another story--it's got very specific hardware
>>requirements, which I suspect are intended to churn the market.
>>Note--don't get Windows 11 if you can avoid it--I think Microsoft
>>tried to reverse the adage that odd numbered versions of Windows are
>>good--their _own_ stuff has trouble running reliably on it.
>
>Actually with Microsoft it's not so much odd numbers but every second
>version and as you know they've skipped a few numbers along the way.
>
>This isn't unique to Windows - it was also true of MS-DOS before that
>and one of my great memories was shocking my son (who is now a
>robotics engineer for a major Amazon subcontractor and building them a
>new warehouse with all the robotics gear for order fulfillment
>locally) with reciting all the versions of Windows going back to the
>beginning and saying things like "this one sucked, that one was pretty
>good in its day" going back to MS-DOS v 2.1 (which given he's now 30
>is about when he was born)

I remember some of the early Winsystems too; we have an elderly
tower that hasn't been booted in a while; I had to ask Hal what
it runs. "Windows 3.1 and DOS." So we've been there.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <urar5ht6rpoldf6ammuoch4tagoe8icru9@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 22:18:23 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>>Perhaps a new keyboard, one which occupies less space, would help.
>>>
>>>Then again, small keyboards tend to "lose" the numeric keypad.
>>
>>Which I use to navigate the LotRO landscape. Back in the early
>>2000s, Asheron's Call used the numkey pad for the same purpose,
>>and I had a laptop that lacked one. Hal managed to find me one
>>that plugged into the side of the laptop.
>
>I have a USB numeric keypad which is about 5" x 7" that I got in a
>computer shop in Hong Kong some 10 years ago but don't use.

Sounds like mine, which I may still have kicking around
somewhere.

>I prefer
>the wide keyboards with keypad on right which I buy the cheapest I can
>get and buy 2 at a time as I've toasted several (usually 1 or 2 a
>year) with coffee spills.
>
>>>If you (or, more likely, Hal) are persistent enough (ie, ignore about
>>>four rows of ads, mostly for wireless full-size keyboards), Amazon
>>>"small keyboard" in Computers has a selection. Including wired
>>>keyboards, which I suspect is what you would want.

You are correct. Hal doesn't trust wireless, and therefore
neither do I.
>
>My wife passed about 6 weeks ago and I am still trying to figure out
>what to do with her computer.

I am so sorry to read this. Six weeks, you must still be
reeling.

My daughter wants it moved from where it
>was as milady died at home and 6 weeks later that room (which contains
>our TV, her computer and the dog's bed) still looks about the same as
>that horrible night so she won't go in there (she was the one who
>discovered her unconscious and called 911).

No wonder she doesn't want to go in.

I will probably move it in
>here eventually as use it for a file server as I have 3 external USB
>hard drives.
>
>Am trying to avoid spending money right now as our 20+ year old
>furnace is going to need replacement soon. We're not strapped but will
>be soon if we don't seriously tie down expenses - (funeral, flowers,
>post-funeral reception, furnace, federal taxes which happens to be
>around now)

/e pats Goat's back, feels Goat's hoof on her own

>Not a great time for us but we're managing - Easter was VERY tough
>since of course the whole theme of Easter is resurrection which is the
>one gift I'd love to be able to give her but can't. A lot of the
>Easter music will bring tears to the grieving so I knew I had to just
>get through it.

I hope time will help.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <05808b88-9804-47eb-9b53-dde31cee1f74n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:39:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
>> whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.
>
>On top of that, Windows 7 is _not_ a flavor of Unix, at least not
>the last time I looked.

No, it isn't; I read USENET on versions 11 BSD.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <t3kgld$ulo$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 4/18/2022 8:39 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:32:29 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:08:21 -0700, Paul S Person
>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:15:36 -0400, J. Clarke
>>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 09:08:34 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:32:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>>> Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <gs5j5hpeuj6uldn57kkfj7266ud8ditquq@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:10:40 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>>>>> Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <snippo>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've got a trackball already. (I don't have room on my tray for
>>>>>>>>> a mousepad.) But my right thumb is the one that's *supposed* to
>>>>>>>>> depress the left button, and the muscle that would make that
>>>>>>>>> happen was the second casualty of my ALS. (The first was my
>>>>>>>>> legs.) A secondary thumb muscle still works to depress the
>>>>>>>>> button, if I put the thumb exactly on the correct quarter of a
>>>>>>>>> square inch of the one-by-two-inches left button, which means I
>>>>>>>>> have to look at the trackball to find it. I then have to reach
>>>>>>>>> over with my left hand to move the ball *exactly* across the line
>>>>>>>>> I want to copy. This task grows less worth the effort as time
>>>>>>>>> passes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I just did a test in Agent:
>>>>>>>> -- move the mouse cursor over the link
>>>>>>>> -- press the popup menu button
>>>>>>>> -- select "Launch" by pressing the highlighted letter "L"
>>>>>>>> ... and the link comes right up!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I have anything like Agent on my several-years-old Win7 box,
>>>>>>> nobody has ever told me about it. Nor does my trackball (also
>>>>>>> built by Logitech) have a popup menu button: just left, right,
>>>>>>> and the ball.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Agent is a newsreader (which also does email). Since you post here,
>>>>>> you must have "something like it".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether it works the same way, of course, remains to be seen. But, if
>>>>>> you are using a trackball to select the link, it must be able to
>>>>>> respond to the trackball, including a right-click popping up the
>>>>>> context-sensitive menu.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dorothy uses trn on *nix (I forget which flavor), not something
>>>>> designed for a GUI.
>>>>
>>>> 1. There are such things as character-based UIs that respond to
>>>> rodents. I still have the MIX library for building such things around
>>>> somewhere. I said nothing about "graphical", although Agent's UI is,
>>>> indeed a GUI.
>>>
>>> That's nice. If you want to rewrite trn to incorporate a context menu
>>> go right ahead. It's open source after all.
>>
>> You are missing the point:
>>
>> since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
>> whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.

Point. I use the trackball (when it deigns to acknowledge my
thumb) to click on the PuTTY icon that connects me to kithrup.
After that I'm using version 11 BSD UNIX to run mail and trn.
>>

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <Tom7K.599030$mF2.537501@fx11.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
>>On 4/18/2022 8:39 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:32:29 -0400, J. Clarke
>
>>>>> 1. There are such things as character-based UIs that respond to
>>>>> rodents. I still have the MIX library for building such things around
>>>>> somewhere. I said nothing about "graphical", although Agent's UI is,
>>>>> indeed a GUI.
>>>>
>>>> That's nice. If you want to rewrite trn to incorporate a context menu
>>>> go right ahead. It's open source after all.
>>>
>>> You are missing the point:
>>>
>>> since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
>>> whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.
>>>
>>> The map is not the terrain! Reality wins!
>
>Actually, she's using the trackball on a Windows machine. She logs
>in to the remote BSD usenet machine from her windows machine with
>ssh/putty (or possibly telnet). IIRC, the remote BSD system belongs to
>someone else.

You are correct, it's PuTTY,

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:41:53 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <05808b88-9804-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:39:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:

> >> since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
> >> whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.

> >On top of that, Windows 7 is _not_ a flavor of Unix, at least not
> >the last time I looked.

> No, it isn't; I read USENET on versions 11 BSD.

And if you're using a Windows telnet client to connect to BSD on
a remote system, clearly you won't be able to use a mouse (or
trackball) to click on things in the telnet window (except to
copy and paste text within Windows)... BSD only expects text
dialogue through its telnet ports.

Now, of course you could run fvwm or Gnome or KDE on BSD,
and use an X Window client on Windows to point and click on
things on a remote BSD computer. Not necessarily the one
you're using now, if it belongs to your ISP that doesn't offer
such a service, though. But if Hal had a Linux box lying around,
and there was a conventional Internet connection entering
your household, then you could use Windows 7 forever, and
browse the Internet safely on Linux remotely.

Of course, though, the window into Gnome would open up
a point and click world with its own set of rules, different from
those of Windows 7 (or 10, or 3.1) and that might be annoying
especially if one really is not interested in getting terribly
computer-savvy.

John Savard

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:53 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> Point. I use the trackball (when it deigns to acknowledge my
> thumb) to click on the PuTTY icon that connects me to kithrup.
> After that I'm using version 11 BSD UNIX to run mail and trn.

Many years ago, the local public library ran a free Internet
service to which I connected using PuTTY. I remember that I
could browse the web in text mode using Lynx, and there was
a USENET client there as well.

These days, most Internet providers no longer provide USENET
for liability reasons.

John Savard

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:11:27 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> These days, most Internet providers no longer provide USENET
> for liability reasons.

And that's why I use that abomination, Google Groups.

Or at least some people seem to think it's an abomination.
But it lets me see all the funny letters that sometimes appear
in posts!

John Savard

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:09:17 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:

> Now, of course you could run fvwm or Gnome or KDE on BSD,
> and use an X Window client on Windows to point and click on
> things on a remote BSD computer.

Of course that might seem like gobbeldygook, but Hal will
know exactly what this means.

John Savard

In article <8909a758-d960-4a36-86ae-c153e0b1c075n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:41:53 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <05808b88-9804-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:39:17 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>
>> >> since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
>> >> whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.
>
>> >On top of that, Windows 7 is _not_ a flavor of Unix, at least not
>> >the last time I looked.
>
>> No, it isn't; I read USENET on versions 11 BSD.
>
>And if you're using a Windows telnet client to connect to BSD on
>a remote system, clearly you won't be able to use a mouse (or
>trackball) to click on things in the telnet window (except to
>copy and paste text within Windows)... BSD only expects text
>dialogue through its telnet ports.
>
>Now, of course you could run fvwm or Gnome or KDE on BSD,
>and use an X Window client on Windows to point and click on
>things on a remote BSD computer. Not necessarily the one
>you're using now, if it belongs to your ISP that doesn't offer
>such a service, though. But if Hal had a Linux box lying around,
>and there was a conventional Internet connection entering
>your household, then you could use Windows 7 forever, and
>browse the Internet safely on Linux remotely.
>
>Of course, though, the window into Gnome would open up
>a point and click world with its own set of rules, different from
>those of Windows 7 (or 10, or 3.1) and that might be annoying
>especially if one really is not interested in getting terribly
>computer-savvy.

Right.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

In article <a695b565-0264-4296-987f-2833294fb683n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:09:17 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>
>> Now, of course you could run fvwm or Gnome or KDE on BSD,
>> and use an X Window client on Windows to point and click on
>> things on a remote BSD computer.
>
>Of course that might seem like gobbeldygook, but Hal will
>know exactly what this means.

Right again; he said, "they're all graphic shells."

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:16:53 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <a695b565-0264-4296...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:09:17 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
> >
> >> Now, of course you could run fvwm or Gnome or KDE on BSD,
> >> and use an X Window client on Windows to point and click on
> >> things on a remote BSD computer.
> >
> >Of course that might seem like gobbeldygook, but Hal will
> >know exactly what this means.

> Right again; he said, "they're all graphic shells."

So typing "fvwm" on Linux... is a lot like typing "win" on DOS.

The big difference is that the X Window System was designed from
the ground up - because Unix started life as a mainframe operating
system - to let you do something like what Remote Desktop does in
Windows, from something called an X Terminal.

That's why you can use a software X Terminal on Windows 7 to
basically use a Linux computer remotely in graphical mode, the same
way PuTTY lets you use it remotely in text mode.

John Savard

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:16:19 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 7:11:27 PM UTC-6, Quadibloc wrote:
>
> > These days, most Internet providers no longer provide USENET
> > for liability reasons.
> And that's why I use that abomination, Google Groups.
>
> Or at least some people seem to think it's an abomination.
> But it lets me see all the funny letters that sometimes appear
> in posts!

I use GG so I can play hooky and check Usenet from work. My
employer has a *very* locked down firewall, and there's no way I
could get NNTP through it.

pt

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:00:59 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>In article <bdf267aa-d6fd-4c9f-a6ff-755a6c9eb71cn@googlegroups.com>,
>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 9:29:49 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
>>
>>> But you don't need it if all you need it for can be done with Meg's
>>> laptop.
>>
>>That's sort of true. But maybe it is inconvenient for Meg to come to
>>lend Dorothy her laptop, and so she can only ask for this favor
>>occasionally.
>
>As I just told Quaddie in private email, Meg lives in the same
>house as us. She and her husband and teen-aged son live upstairs
>and we live in the basement in-laws' unit. And she doesn't use
>her laptop at work (which would be a bad idea; she works for a
>lawyer). So all she has to do is to hand it over on her way to
>work.
>jj
>>Also, if Dorothy wants to browse sites on the Internet, Windows 7
>>no longer recieves security updates from Microsoft, unlike Windows
>>10, so it really isn't safe to do so with her existing computer.
>>
>>That's basically why I felt it was worth mentioning that computers
>>that can run Windows 10 ought to be available inexpensively.
>
>"Inexpensive," like "efficient," depends on your frame of
>reference It would be nice, once we get out of this hole we're
>in, to have a laptop that I could put on my lap and type on when
>making face-to-face doctors' (or other kinds of) visits. As
>happens with ALS, my speech is getting unintelligible; yet another
>reason Hal habitually answers the landline and tells the scammers
>in a loud voice what he thinks of them.

I'm not sure, since I don't use my Fire HD 6 for note-taking, but a
tablet might work. Particularly if it has software designed for people
with medical problems.

>But it was incredibly kind of you to think of me. Misthlith and
>Stillfot send their loudest purrs.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

n Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:37:40 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 01:08:54 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <37756da4-78a9-4c08-a4c6-786b5478c36en@googlegroups.com>,
>>Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>On Wednesday, April 13, 2022 at 9:16:48 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>
>>I don't *want* to run Win10. I have heard horrible things about
>>it (though not so horrible as about Win8).
>
>What specifically have you heard? I had Win 8 on my work machine and
>hated it but for me at least the Win 10 move has gone extremely well
>on both work and home machines. Obviously your hardware has to be able
>to handle it but my 10 year old i7 laptop which is far less capable
>than this machine handled it A-OK.
>
>>>Myself, I am hanging on to my previous computer, as I sometimes want
>>>to run some programs I haven't attempted to install on my current system;
>>>that old system was originally bought for $200 used at a local store that
>>>specializes in computers purchased from businesses that replaced them,
>>>and it runs Windows 10. And this is in Canada, where computer stuff usually
>>>costs about 50% more than in the U.S. if one neglects the difference in the
>>>value of the dollar.
>
>This machine is effectively a mid-size file server as I do a lot of
>downloads. My wife's machine is used mostly for e-mail, web browsing
>and Facebook so much less. Both have no trouble with 10.
>
>I don't plan on considering Win 11 until after their first service
>pack. "If it ain't broke..."

I didn't migrate my desktop from Win8.1 to Win10 until I bought the
Notebook, which came with Win10, and I had a look at it.

I don't plan on migrating to Win11 until I need to replace a computer.
I hope this will be a few years down the road, so that the Big Update
when I rev it up will produce a useable OS, the major problems having
been eliminated by then.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 11:42:25 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 21:26:41 -0400, J. Clarke
><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>FWIW, a computer that can run Windows 7 can very likely run Windows
>>10. Windows 11 is another story--it's got very specific hardware
>>requirements, which I suspect are intended to churn the market.
>>Note--don't get Windows 11 if you can avoid it--I think Microsoft
>>tried to reverse the adage that odd numbered versions of Windows are
>>good--their _own_ stuff has trouble running reliably on it.
>
>Actually with Microsoft it's not so much odd numbers but every second
>version and as you know they've skipped a few numbers along the way.

They skipped "9", it is said, because they didn't want software
writtne for Win98 (and, IIRC, at least one other in that series) just
reading the "9" and not realizing it wasn't running on the OS
intended.

>This isn't unique to Windows - it was also true of MS-DOS before that
>and one of my great memories was shocking my son (who is now a
>robotics engineer for a major Amazon subcontractor and building them a
>new warehouse with all the robotics gear for order fulfillment
>locally) with reciting all the versions of Windows going back to the
>beginning and saying things like "this one sucked, that one was pretty
>good in its day" going back to MS-DOS v 2.1 (which given he's now 30
>is about when he was born)
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 16:39:38 -0400, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:39:11 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 16:32:29 -0400, J. Clarke
>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:08:21 -0700, Paul S Person
>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 17:15:36 -0400, J. Clarke
>>>><jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 09:08:34 -0700, Paul S Person
>>>>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 21:32:36 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>>>Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article <gs5j5hpeuj6uldn57kkfj7266ud8ditquq@4ax.com>,
>>>>>>>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:10:40 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>>>>>>>>Heydt) wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><snippo>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I've got a trackball already. (I don't have room on my tray for
>>>>>>>>>a mousepad.) But my right thumb is the one that's *supposed* to
>>>>>>>>>depress the left button, and the muscle that would make that
>>>>>>>>>happen was the second casualty of my ALS. (The first was my
>>>>>>>>>legs.) A secondary thumb muscle still works to depress the
>>>>>>>>>button, if I put the thumb exactly on the correct quarter of a
>>>>>>>>>square inch of the one-by-two-inches left button, which means I
>>>>>>>>>have to look at the trackball to find it. I then have to reach
>>>>>>>>>over with my left hand to move the ball *exactly* across the line
>>>>>>>>>I want to copy. This task grows less worth the effort as time
>>>>>>>>>passes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I just did a test in Agent:
>>>>>>>>-- move the mouse cursor over the link
>>>>>>>>-- press the popup menu button
>>>>>>>>-- select "Launch" by pressing the highlighted letter "L"
>>>>>>>>... and the link comes right up!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If I have anything like Agent on my several-years-old Win7 box,
>>>>>>>nobody has ever told me about it. Nor does my trackball (also
>>>>>>>built by Logitech) have a popup menu button: just left, right,
>>>>>>>and the ball.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Agent is a newsreader (which also does email). Since you post here,
>>>>>>you must have "something like it".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Whether it works the same way, of course, remains to be seen. But, if
>>>>>>you are using a trackball to select the link, it must be able to
>>>>>>respond to the trackball, including a right-click popping up the
>>>>>>context-sensitive menu.
>>>>>
>>>>>Dorothy uses trn on *nix (I forget which flavor), not something
>>>>>designed for a GUI.
>>>>
>>>>1. There are such things as character-based UIs that respond to
>>>>rodents. I still have the MIX library for building such things around
>>>>somewhere. I said nothing about "graphical", although Agent's UI is,
>>>>indeed a GUI.
>>>
>>>That's nice. If you want to rewrite trn to incorporate a context menu
>>>go right ahead. It's open source after all.
>>
>>You are missing the point:
>>
>>since she is /using/ the trackball to launch a link in a usenet post,
>>whatever she is /using/ clearly supports rodents.
>>
>>The map is not the terrain! Reality wins!
>
>She isn't using just one system. She's using a Windows system for
>some purposes and a BSD system for others. For USENET she's using
>BSD, not Windows.
>
>Do try to pay attention.

I have been this morning, it has been very informative.

I don't recall having read about this setup before, but I could be
wrong.

>And I don't recall Dorothy saying anything about launching a link with
>a trackball. That was you demonstrating Agent, which she does not
>have.

You may be right. She could simply be highlighting it to copy it to a
browser. This might make the pop-up menu key irrelevant, depending on
what the Windows terminal software does.

But accessing Linux stuff from a Windows terminal program makes the
characteristics of the Linux stuff ... irrevelant. It is the terminal
program that then determines how the rodent is used. Or Windows
itself, of course, could be handling the highlighting if
copy-and-paste is being done.

And the use of a trackball was quite clear.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."