On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:43:18 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 00:50:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >> The first thing members of any military or paramilitary organization
> >> are supposed to do is obey orders. Nobody was giving any. So finally
> >> someone got fed up and "displayed initiative".
> >
> >The _first_ thing a military organization is supposed to do is win the
> >damned war! And if the ranking officer on the scene fails to give
> >proper orders to that end, that lack of initiative can be a court-martial
> >offence.
> You have clearly never served if you think that any yahoo is allowed
> to start blazing away.
> >I mean, if you aren't hearing any orders, and there is no one present
> >who outranks you for whose orders you should wait... there are, after
> >all, *standing orders* to be obeyed.
> So show us the "standing orders" for this situation.

Texas standard active shooter training emphasizes immediately
confronting the shooter. The police in Uvalde had taken this training
two months earlier.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/time-number-enemy-police-uvalde-ignore-training/story?id=85020134

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/06/1103252713/texas-school-police-get-standardized-active-shooter-training-i-didnt-work-in-uva

pt

On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 16:18:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 6/12/2022 10:50 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:04:44 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That still doesn't explain to me why grade schools "need" their own
>>>>> independent police force rather than the individual schools being
>>>>> covered by the LEO handling their location.
>>>>>
>>>> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
>>>> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
>>>> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
>>>> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
>>>> elementary schools
>>>>
>>>> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
>>>> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
>>>> years it's a bad year.
>>>
>>> Personally I think its part of "the Texas Culture" where it is right and
>>> proper for men to carry guns, women to carry guns and the sheep carry
>>> guns so everyone else is scared. Having an overabundance of overlapping
>>> LEOs is just part of the mindset and an excuse for more guns. And I say
>>> that as someone who was given his rifle at 16 by his national level
>>> competition sharpshooter grandfather who had modified it for me.
>>
>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas city
>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home rule...make
>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state consitution or
>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter and pass
>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own courts, jails,
>> etc.
>>
>I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>courting multiple disasters.

I don't know about Texas, but Seattle's Municipal Court system is
basically limited to some misdemeanors and some civil cases. The State
courts (I think) take on the more serious cases. And then, of course,
there are the Federal courts as well.

But I am surprised that small cities would do this, as it must surely
cost them money to build jails and courtrooms, which to me implies
/new taxes/ compared to before they did this. Or do they just finance
it by fleecing any stranger who has the misfortune to drive through?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 2022-06-13 07:55, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:43:18 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 00:50:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> The first thing members of any military or paramilitary organization
>>>> are supposed to do is obey orders. Nobody was giving any. So finally
>>>> someone got fed up and "displayed initiative".
>>>
>>> The _first_ thing a military organization is supposed to do is win the
>>> damned war! And if the ranking officer on the scene fails to give
>>> proper orders to that end, that lack of initiative can be a court-martial
>>> offence.
>> You have clearly never served if you think that any yahoo is allowed
>> to start blazing away.
>>> I mean, if you aren't hearing any orders, and there is no one present
>>> who outranks you for whose orders you should wait... there are, after
>>> all, *standing orders* to be obeyed.
>> So show us the "standing orders" for this situation.
>
> Texas standard active shooter training emphasizes immediately
> confronting the shooter. The police in Uvalde had taken this training
> two months earlier.
>
> https://abcnews.go.com/US/time-number-enemy-police-uvalde-ignore-training/story?id=85020134
>
> https://www.npr.org/2022/06/06/1103252713/texas-school-police-get-standardized-active-shooter-training-i-didnt-work-in-uva
>
> pt
>

Game set and match.

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 16:18:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6/12/2022 10:50 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:04:44 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That still doesn't explain to me why grade schools "need" their own
>>>>>> independent police force rather than the individual schools being
>>>>>> covered by the LEO handling their location.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
>>>>> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
>>>>> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
>>>>> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
>>>>> elementary schools
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
>>>>> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
>>>>> years it's a bad year.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I think its part of "the Texas Culture" where it is right and
>>>> proper for men to carry guns, women to carry guns and the sheep carry
>>>> guns so everyone else is scared. Having an overabundance of overlapping
>>>> LEOs is just part of the mindset and an excuse for more guns. And I say
>>>> that as someone who was given his rifle at 16 by his national level
>>>> competition sharpshooter grandfather who had modified it for me.
>>>
>>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas city
>>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home rule...make
>>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state consitution or
>>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter and pass
>>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own courts, jails,
>>> etc.
>>>
>>I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>>That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>>courting multiple disasters.
>
> I don't know about Texas, but Seattle's Municipal Court system is
> basically limited to some misdemeanors and some civil cases. The State
> courts (I think) take on the more serious cases. And then, of course,
> there are the Federal courts as well.
>
> But I am surprised that small cities would do this, as it must surely
> cost them money to build jails and courtrooms, which to me implies
> /new taxes/ compared to before they did this. Or do they just finance
> it by fleecing any stranger who has the misfortune to drive through?

"Municipal court" can be a conference room at the city hall. For smaller
cities the offenses tend to be administrative and punishable by fines
(shooting fireworks inside city limits is a big one over the next few weeks).
City jails (generally in larger cities) tend to be short-term (overnight or
a few days) while they decide whether to release someone or transfer them
elsewhere (to a county jail or outside of the area on an outstanding warrant).
The town I'm in has an occasional munipical court, I think primarily to hear
people who protest fines, but no jail (or police).

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On 13 Jun 2022, Charles Packer wrote
(in article <gNBpK.157965$70j.135003@fx16.iad>):

> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:28:10 -0400, Wolffan wrote:
>
> >
> > FDR continued to ignore VPs, including Truman.
>
> Which is consistent with the Constitution...

Yeah. But not very prudent. If the prez drops dead, it’d be nice to be able
to get hold of the VP fairly quickly, and it’d be nicer if the VP had some
clues as to what was going on. Garner was in Texas for months before anyone
noticed he was gone, and for most of the time he spent in Washington before
going back to Texas he spent most of his time in various bars. If FDR had
died then, there would have been problems finding Garner. Truman didn’t
know about a lot of things which he was responsible for as soon as he became
prez, not least the atomic bomb.

There’s a _reason_ why having, for example, Danny Quayle as VP was such a
bad idea. (Other bad VPs are available.)

On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:

>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas city
>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home rule...make
>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state consitution or
>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter and pass
>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own courts, jails,
>> etc.
>>
> I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts. That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and courting multiple disasters.

With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?

I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.

I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
appropriate.

--
Michael F. Stemper
There's no "me" in "team". There's no "us" in "team", either.

Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote in
news:0001HW.2857C06C0390853770000F20038F@news.supernews.com:

> (Other bad VPs are available.)
>
The current one comes to mind.

--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

On 6/13/2022 9:17 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 16:18:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6/12/2022 10:50 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:04:44 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That still doesn't explain to me why grade schools "need" their own
>>>>>> independent police force rather than the individual schools being
>>>>>> covered by the LEO handling their location.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
>>>>> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
>>>>> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
>>>>> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
>>>>> elementary schools
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
>>>>> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
>>>>> years it's a bad year.
>>>>
>>>> Personally I think its part of "the Texas Culture" where it is right and
>>>> proper for men to carry guns, women to carry guns and the sheep carry
>>>> guns so everyone else is scared. Having an overabundance of overlapping
>>>> LEOs is just part of the mindset and an excuse for more guns. And I say
>>>> that as someone who was given his rifle at 16 by his national level
>>>> competition sharpshooter grandfather who had modified it for me.
>>>
>>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas city
>>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home rule...make
>>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state consitution or
>>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter and pass
>>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own courts, jails,
>>> etc.
>>>
>> I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>> That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>> courting multiple disasters.
>
> I don't know about Texas, but Seattle's Municipal Court system is
> basically limited to some misdemeanors and some civil cases. The State
> courts (I think) take on the more serious cases. And then, of course,
> there are the Federal courts as well.
>
> But I am surprised that small cities would do this, as it must surely
> cost them money to build jails and courtrooms, which to me implies
> /new taxes/ compared to before they did this. Or do they just finance
> it by fleecing any stranger who has the misfortune to drive through?

California all the courts are state courts with judges and courtrooms in
each of the counties. Felony, Misdemeanor, Traffic, Civil, it all goes
to the state court system. Counties have their own jails run by the
Sheriff's Office.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/13/2022 12:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>
>>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas city
>>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
>>> rule...make
>>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
>>> consitution or
>>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
>>> and pass
>>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own courts,
>>> jails,
>>> etc.
>>>
>> I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>> That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>> courting multiple disasters.
>
> With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
> wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
>
> I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
> could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
>
> I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
> might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
> appropriate.
>
You want to bring _science fiction_ into a political discussion?!
That's ... far too fitting. :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/13/2022 11:58 AM, Wolffan wrote:
> On 13 Jun 2022, Charles Packer wrote
> (in article <gNBpK.157965$70j.135003@fx16.iad>):
>
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:28:10 -0400, Wolffan wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> FDR continued to ignore VPs, including Truman.
>>
>> Which is consistent with the Constitution...
>
> Yeah. But not very prudent. If the prez drops dead, it’d be nice to be able
> to get hold of the VP fairly quickly, and it’d be nicer if the VP had some
> clues as to what was going on. Garner was in Texas for months before anyone
> noticed he was gone, and for most of the time he spent in Washington before
> going back to Texas he spent most of his time in various bars. If FDR had
> died then, there would have been problems finding Garner. Truman didn’t
> know about a lot of things which he was responsible for as soon as he became
> prez, not least the atomic bomb.
>
> There’s a _reason_ why having, for example, Danny Quayle as VP was such a
> bad idea. (Other bad VPs are available.)
>
Well, the expectation that the President would or should respond same
day to something is a recent development.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/13/2022 2:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>
>>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas city
>>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
>>> rule...make
>>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
>>> consitution or
>>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
>>> and pass
>>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own courts,
>>> jails,
>>> etc.
>>>
>> I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>> That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>> courting multiple disasters.
>
> With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
> wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
>
> I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
> could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
>
> I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
> might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
> appropriate.
>

The tourist had been enjoying her company, along with her friends, and
attempted to make the first move by kissing the girl, which by loonie
mores was unacceptable as the female is fully in control. The boys with
her took objection and were going to space him but decided they needed a
trial to do it properly. They encountered Mannie whom had acted as judge
before and asked him to preside. All of them had to pony up a fee. The
tourist (or the boys) could have objected to Mannie as the judge and
they would have had to find another.

The jury was volunteers offered payment, one of who was thrown out
without his payment for falling asleep.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 18:43:43 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> link to full article:
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>
>>
>
>Incidentally, with the Uvalde incident
>the well-known phrase "gun culture" has come home, sort of, after
>59 years. In November 1963 within four days after
>JFK's assassination the phrase was first used, by Dan Rather,
>in radio talks about Texas. Rather was at CBS station KRLD Dallas
>and on the day of the assassination had been working on an
>interview of John Nance Garner recorded in Uvalde. Garner, who had
>been FDR's vice president, was from Uvalde and the
>interview was associated with his 95th birthday, which was
>on the 22nd.

That's amazing.

For me 22/11/1963 was amazing as schools were let out early that day
and I well remember my teacher crying in the halls outside our
classroom. Which was rather odd as we were in Canada and had NEVER to
my knowledge been dismissed early for anybody's death much less a
foreign dignitary (we were NOT dismissed early 2 years later for
Churchill's funeral though a television was brought in so we could see
the feed - I mostly remember the white horses pulling the artillery
carriage. The things you remember from 2nd and 4th grades!)

On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 16:18:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas city
>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home rule...make
>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state consitution or
>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter and pass
>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own courts, jails,
>> etc.
>>
>I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>courting multiple disasters.

I find that incredible as well - in Canada there are provincial police
forces in Ontario + Quebec but elsewhere it's RCMP (Royal Canadian
Mounted Police which no longer use horses except for ceremonial
occasions) most places with a few municipal police services in towns
of 200,000+. Where in makes sense to do so 2 or more municipalities
will be served by the same RCMP detachment. (The RCMP operate under
funding contracts made with the various municipalities typically 15-20
years in length)

Thus in Vancouver the city has their own service while most of the
burbs are RCMP though one burb of 550000 is currently switching to
their own. You have transit cops who mostly patrol the subway but are
on call to buses as well but that's about it.

About the only time you see them in the classic red serge is for
ceremonial events like the swearing in of a new municipal council ever
4 years though even in red serge they have their full powers - I know
one guy who was flabbergasted to get a ticket for speeding in a school
zone by a red serge officier who was on his way to an event.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 09:17:12 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 16:18:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
><dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6/12/2022 10:50 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:04:44 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> That still doesn't explain to me why grade schools "need" their own
>>>>>> independent police force rather than the individual schools being
>>>>>> covered by the LEO handling their location.
>>>>>>
>>>>> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
>>>>> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
>>>>> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
>>>>> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
>>>>> elementary schools
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
>>>>> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
>>>>> years it's a bad year.
>>>>
The town of 2 1/2 million I mentioned was Vancouver so likely more in
common with Seattle than Texas.

In Seattle are these various courts all in one building or separate
buildings for separate courts? Here they're mostly in one building
except for the family courts which are mostly about divorces + custody
or the occasional family related criminal matter.

Canadian jails are usually NOT part of police or courtroom buildings
except for initial arrest (police) and a few holding areas (criminal
courts) with accuseds being transported back and forth between court +
jail most of the time.

>I don't know about Texas, but Seattle's Municipal Court system is
>basically limited to some misdemeanors and some civil cases. The State
>courts (I think) take on the more serious cases. And then, of course,
>there are the Federal courts as well.
>
>But I am surprised that small cities would do this, as it must surely
>cost them money to build jails and courtrooms, which to me implies
>/new taxes/ compared to before they did this. Or do they just finance
>it by fleecing any stranger who has the misfortune to drive through?

On your last point there have been several recent cases involving
police seizures:
https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/bc-administrative-forfeiture-system-ripe-for-abuse-say-critics

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 14:58:52 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
wrote:

>Yeah. But not very prudent. If the prez drops dead, it’d be nice to be able
>to get hold of the VP fairly quickly, and it’d be nicer if the VP had some
>clues as to what was going on. Garner was in Texas for months before anyone
>noticed he was gone, and for most of the time he spent in Washington before
>going back to Texas he spent most of his time in various bars. If FDR had
>died then, there would have been problems finding Garner. Truman didn’t
>know about a lot of things which he was responsible for as soon as he became
>prez, not least the atomic bomb.
>
>There’s a _reason_ why having, for example, Danny Quayle as VP was such a
>bad idea. (Other bad VPs are available.)

These days the OIC of the presidential and vice-presidential security
details have each other on speed dial for exactly that reason. Nobody
wants a new Alexander Haig saying he's in charge.

Truman was a special case - America was at war and Truman had to (a)
handle the surrender of Germany, (b) learn about and make the decision
to send the A-bomb to Okinawa and give the order to use them, (c) go
meet Churchill (who midway through was replaced by Attlee) and Stalin
all within his first 3 months in office.

In FDR's world, Truman's main virtue is that he wasn't Wallace. As it
was FDR probably gave as much away to Stalin as Wallace would have.

Given how things COULD have gone I think he did a pretty good job in
1945 particularly given his almost total lack of training.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 07:55:04 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:43:18 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 00:50:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>> >
>> >> The first thing members of any military or paramilitary organization
>> >> are supposed to do is obey orders. Nobody was giving any. So finally
>> >> someone got fed up and "displayed initiative".
>> >
>> >The _first_ thing a military organization is supposed to do is win the
>> >damned war! And if the ranking officer on the scene fails to give
>> >proper orders to that end, that lack of initiative can be a court-martial
>> >offence.
>> You have clearly never served if you think that any yahoo is allowed
>> to start blazing away.
>> >I mean, if you aren't hearing any orders, and there is no one present
>> >who outranks you for whose orders you should wait... there are, after
>> >all, *standing orders* to be obeyed.
>> So show us the "standing orders" for this situation.
>
>Texas standard active shooter training emphasizes immediately
>confronting the shooter. The police in Uvalde had taken this training
>two months earlier.
>
>https://abcnews.go.com/US/time-number-enemy-police-uvalde-ignore-training/story?id=85020134
>
>https://www.npr.org/2022/06/06/1103252713/texas-school-police-get-standardized-active-shooter-training-i-didnt-work-in-uva

Training and orders are two different things.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 17:07:36 -0700, The Horny Goat wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 14:58:52 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>
>>Yeah. But not very prudent. If the prez drops dead, it’d be nice to be
>>able to get hold of the VP fairly quickly, and it’d be nicer if the VP
>>had some clues as to what was going on. Garner was in Texas for months
>>before anyone noticed he was gone, and for most of the time he spent in
>>Washington before going back to Texas he spent most of his time in
>>various bars. If FDR had died then, there would have been problems
>>finding Garner. Truman didn’t know about a lot of things which he was
>>responsible for as soon as he became prez, not least the atomic bomb.
>>
>>There’s a _reason_ why having, for example, Danny Quayle as VP was such
>>a bad idea. (Other bad VPs are available.)
>
> These days the OIC of the presidential and vice-presidential security
> details have each other on speed dial for exactly that reason. Nobody
> wants a new Alexander Haig saying he's in charge.
>
>

There's no reason the Constitution can't be amended to
restructure the branches to make a VP entirely within the executive
branch and create another official to preside over the Senate.
Into the bargain, it would make for cleaner separation of powers.

On 14/06/2022 01:07, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 14:58:52 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yeah. But not very prudent. If the prez drops dead, it’d be nice to be able
>> to get hold of the VP fairly quickly, and it’d be nicer if the VP had some
>> clues as to what was going on. Garner was in Texas for months before anyone
>> noticed he was gone, and for most of the time he spent in Washington before
>> going back to Texas he spent most of his time in various bars. If FDR had
>> died then, there would have been problems finding Garner. Truman didn’t
>> know about a lot of things which he was responsible for as soon as he became
>> prez, not least the atomic bomb.
>>
>> There’s a _reason_ why having, for example, Danny Quayle as VP was such a
>> bad idea. (Other bad VPs are available.)
>
> These days the OIC of the presidential and vice-presidential security
> details have each other on speed dial for exactly that reason. Nobody
> wants a new Alexander Haig saying he's in charge.
>
> Truman was a special case - America was at war and Truman had to (a)
> handle the surrender of Germany, (b) learn about and make the decision
> to send the A-bomb to Okinawa and give the order to use them, (c) go
> meet Churchill (who midway through was replaced by Attlee) and Stalin
> all within his first 3 months in office.

The bomb was to be sent to Tinian in the Marianas, not Okinawa, where
the battle to take the island was still raging. I would need to check
details, but in April 1945 I don't think it was 100% ready to be
shipped. The first test of a bomb in New Mexico was still some months
away (July). It is true that Truman had to take on the decision about
whether to use it, without previous knowledge of the project, when he
succeeded Roosevelt.

--
Mike Dworetsky

>
> In FDR's world, Truman's main virtue is that he wasn't Wallace. As it
> was FDR probably gave as much away to Stalin as Wallace would have.
>
> Given how things COULD have gone I think he did a pretty good job in
> 1945 particularly given his almost total lack of training.

J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 07:55:04 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:43:18 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 00:50:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> The first thing members of any military or paramilitary organization
>>> >> are supposed to do is obey orders. Nobody was giving any. So finally
>>> >> someone got fed up and "displayed initiative".
>>> >
>>> >The _first_ thing a military organization is supposed to do is win the
>>> >damned war! And if the ranking officer on the scene fails to give
>>> >proper orders to that end, that lack of initiative can be a court-martial
>>> >offence.
>>> You have clearly never served if you think that any yahoo is allowed
>>> to start blazing away.
>>> >I mean, if you aren't hearing any orders, and there is no one present
>>> >who outranks you for whose orders you should wait... there are, after
>>> >all, *standing orders* to be obeyed.
>>> So show us the "standing orders" for this situation.
>>
>>Texas standard active shooter training emphasizes immediately
>>confronting the shooter. The police in Uvalde had taken this training
>>two months earlier.
>>
>>https://abcnews.go.com/US/time-number-enemy-police-uvalde-ignore-training/story?id=85020134
>>
>>https://www.npr.org/2022/06/06/1103252713/texas-school-police-get-standardized-active-shooter-training-i-didnt-work-in-uva
>
> Training and orders are two different things.

As are having had training and actually being trained.
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On 14 Jun 2022, Michael Dworetsky wrote
(in article<g9adneMSjfTUoTX_nZ2dnUU7-dvNnZ2d@supernews.com>):

> On 14/06/2022 01:07, The Horny Goat wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 14:58:52 -0400, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah. But not very prudent. If the prez drops dead, it’d be nice to be
> > > able
> > > to get hold of the VP fairly quickly, and it’d be nicer if the VP had
> > > some
> > > clues as to what was going on. Garner was in Texas for months before anyone
> > > noticed he was gone, and for most of the time he spent in Washington before
> > > going back to Texas he spent most of his time in various bars. If FDR had
> > > died then, there would have been problems finding Garner. Truman didn’t
> > > know about a lot of things which he was responsible for as soon as he
> > > became
> > > prez, not least the atomic bomb.
> > >
> > > There’s a _reason_ why having, for example, Danny Quayle as VP was such a
> > > bad idea. (Other bad VPs are available.)
> >
> > These days the OIC of the presidential and vice-presidential security
> > details have each other on speed dial for exactly that reason. Nobody
> > wants a new Alexander Haig saying he's in charge.
> >
> > Truman was a special case - America was at war and Truman had to (a)
> > handle the surrender of Germany, (b) learn about and make the decision
> > to send the A-bomb to Okinawa and give the order to use them, (c) go
> > meet Churchill (who midway through was replaced by Attlee) and Stalin
> > all within his first 3 months in office.
>
> The bomb was to be sent to Tinian in the Marianas, not Okinawa, where
> the battle to take the island was still raging. I would need to check
> details, but in April 1945 I don't think it was 100% ready to be
> shipped. The first test of a bomb in New Mexico was still some months
> away (July). It is true that Truman had to take on the decision about
> whether to use it, without previous knowledge of the project, when he
> succeeded Roosevelt.

The nuke that went to Hiroshima was shipped as soon as it was ready; it was a
uranium gun-type bomb, and they _knew_ that it would work. They weren’t
sure about the plutonium implosion-type bombs; they tested one on 16 July
1945, it worked, they shipped the second (and last!) plutonium bomb they had.
The US didn’t have any more nukes after that, and wouldn’t have any until
the end of August/start of September. Basically they bluffed the hell out of
Japan. Though XXI Bomber Command would probably have just burned down a few
more Japanese cities while more nukes were being built, and Tiger Force was
heading for Okinawa and Iwo Jima, so that the RAF, the acknowledged experts
in city demolition until the 509th Composite Group pioneered the One Second
Slum Clearance System on 6 and 9 August, 1945, would be around to help XXI
Bomber Command burn Japan to the ground, city by city. It should always be
remembered that the nuke raids were not, repeat not, the most destructive air
raids in history; Operation Meetinghouse, the Great Fire Raid on Tokyo, was
#1, and by a long way; Operation Gommorah, to Hamberg, and Operation
Millennium, to Cologne, were among the raids which were worse than the nuke
strikes. Meetinghouse had been planned using data from Gommorah and
Millennium and more, to deliberately burn Tokyo down. When it worked, XXI
Bomber Command abandoned American-style daylight ‘precision’ raids (it is
to laugh! The USAAF often missed targets by _miles_! In one spectacular case,
the USAAF managed to kill the most senior American officer to be killed in
WW2, a Lt General, because they hit _American_ positions instead of _German_
positions! The possibility exists that B-17s are not the best choice for
close air support!) and went with RAF-style night ‘area’ raids, because
_that worked_. At Tokyo and Hamberg and other German and Japanese cities
there were ‘firetempests’, massive fires fed by winds of 150 knots,
Category 5 hurricane winds. Hiroshima and Nagasaki merely had
‘firestorms’, with winds of 100-110 knots (Category 2-3 winds). I’ve
been in a few hurricanes; a Cat 2, even a Cat 3, that’s a souped-up
thunderstorm. A Cat 5 is fucking terrifying. A Cat 5 feeding city-wide fires
is something I don’t want to be anywhere near. Meetinghouse burned 24
square miles of Tokyo to ash, damaged another 20+ square miles, killed
hundreds of thousands (estimates range from 100,000 to 400,000, no-body’s
sure, temperatures in the firetempest were hot enough to melt lead and steel
and to burn bricks, there simply wasn’t anything left of mere human bodies
in the area where the firetempest raged). And then XXI Bomber Command came
back and burned out most of what was left. Bombers going into the firetempest
area moved fast, with enhanced ground speed thanks to the 150-knot tailwind;
coming out, they moved slowly, thanks to the 150-knot headwind. Japanese
night fighter crews reported that Tokyo was ‘as bright as sunrise’.
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/hellfire-earth-operation-
meetinghouse

And, oh, yeah, the raid commander for Meetinghouse was a General Powers...
who was the basis for Jack D. Ripper in Dr. Strangelove, just as Curtis
LeMay, commanding 20th Army Air Force and XXI Bomber Command, was the basis
for Buck Turgidson. There were some scary people in senior positions in the
USAAF in 1945.

Meetinghouse, and the fire raids which followed it, are not well known in the
West. They are very well known in Japan.

What made Hiroshima and Nagasaki special wasn’t the casualty count or the
destruction, it was that one plane with one bomb each did it, instead of
hundreds of planes like Meetinghouse and Gommorah and Millennium.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
>On 6/13/2022 9:17 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 16:18:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>

>> I don't know about Texas, but Seattle's Municipal Court system is
>> basically limited to some misdemeanors and some civil cases. The State
>> courts (I think) take on the more serious cases. And then, of course,
>> there are the Federal courts as well.
>>
>> But I am surprised that small cities would do this, as it must surely
>> cost them money to build jails and courtrooms, which to me implies
>> /new taxes/ compared to before they did this. Or do they just finance
>> it by fleecing any stranger who has the misfortune to drive through?
>
>California all the courts are state courts with judges and courtrooms in
>each of the counties. Felony, Misdemeanor, Traffic, Civil, it all goes
>to the state court system. Counties have their own jails run by the
>Sheriff's Office.

That has only been the case since 1998.

https://www.courts.ca.gov/superiorcourts.htm

There are also federal (US District) courts in california.

On 6/14/2022 7:04 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> writes:
>> On 6/13/2022 9:17 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 16:18:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>
>>> I don't know about Texas, but Seattle's Municipal Court system is
>>> basically limited to some misdemeanors and some civil cases. The State
>>> courts (I think) take on the more serious cases. And then, of course,
>>> there are the Federal courts as well.
>>>
>>> But I am surprised that small cities would do this, as it must surely
>>> cost them money to build jails and courtrooms, which to me implies
>>> /new taxes/ compared to before they did this. Or do they just finance
>>> it by fleecing any stranger who has the misfortune to drive through?
>>
>> California all the courts are state courts with judges and courtrooms in
>> each of the counties. Felony, Misdemeanor, Traffic, Civil, it all goes
>> to the state court system. Counties have their own jails run by the
>> Sheriff's Office.
>
> That has only been the case since 1998.
>
> https://www.courts.ca.gov/superiorcourts.htm
>
> There are also federal (US District) courts in california.

Wasn't trying to imply there are no Federal courts, just no lower courts.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 2022-06-13 19:18, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 07:55:04 -0700 (PDT), "pete...@gmail.com"
> <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 10:43:18 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 00:50:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The first thing members of any military or paramilitary organization
>>>>> are supposed to do is obey orders. Nobody was giving any. So finally
>>>>> someone got fed up and "displayed initiative".
>>>>
>>>> The _first_ thing a military organization is supposed to do is win the
>>>> damned war! And if the ranking officer on the scene fails to give
>>>> proper orders to that end, that lack of initiative can be a court-martial
>>>> offence.
>>> You have clearly never served if you think that any yahoo is allowed
>>> to start blazing away.
>>>> I mean, if you aren't hearing any orders, and there is no one present
>>>> who outranks you for whose orders you should wait... there are, after
>>>> all, *standing orders* to be obeyed.
>>> So show us the "standing orders" for this situation.
>>
>> Texas standard active shooter training emphasizes immediately
>> confronting the shooter. The police in Uvalde had taken this training
>> two months earlier.
>>
>> https://abcnews.go.com/US/time-number-enemy-police-uvalde-ignore-training/story?id=85020134
>>
>> https://www.npr.org/2022/06/06/1103252713/texas-school-police-get-standardized-active-shooter-training-i-didnt-work-in-uva
>
> Training and orders are two different things.

Split another hair.

Do you really think they train for something that is NOT in the standard
operating procedures?

On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 06:40:10 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 17:07:36 -0700, The Horny Goat wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 14:58:52 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Yeah. But not very prudent. If the prez drops dead, it?d be nice to be
>>>able to get hold of the VP fairly quickly, and it?d be nicer if the VP
>>>had some clues as to what was going on. Garner was in Texas for months
>>>before anyone noticed he was gone, and for most of the time he spent in
>>>Washington before going back to Texas he spent most of his time in
>>>various bars. If FDR had died then, there would have been problems
>>>finding Garner. Truman didn?t know about a lot of things which he was
>>>responsible for as soon as he became prez, not least the atomic bomb.
>>>
>>>There?s a _reason_ why having, for example, Danny Quayle as VP was such
>>>a bad idea. (Other bad VPs are available.)
>>
>> These days the OIC of the presidential and vice-presidential security
>> details have each other on speed dial for exactly that reason. Nobody
>> wants a new Alexander Haig saying he's in charge.
>>
>>
>
>There's no reason the Constitution can't be amended to
>restructure the branches to make a VP entirely within the executive
>branch and create another official to preside over the Senate.
>Into the bargain, it would make for cleaner separation of powers.

"No reason"? I'm pretty sure a bunch of politicians all over the
country refusing to agree to it is a "reason".

On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 06:40:10 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
wrote:

>
>There's no reason the Constitution can't be amended to
>restructure the branches to make a VP entirely within the executive
>branch and create another official to preside over the Senate.
>Into the bargain, it would make for cleaner separation of powers.

In Canada the Speaker is elected by the members of Parliament though
usually it's pre-determined by the party leaders and usually but not
always is a member of the ruling party.

While this sounds prejudicial it almost never is since the Speaker
knows any accusations of favoritism would quickly become an election
issue.