On 6/14/2022 1:20 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 06:40:10 GMT, Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> There's no reason the Constitution can't be amended to
>> restructure the branches to make a VP entirely within the executive
>> branch and create another official to preside over the Senate.
>> Into the bargain, it would make for cleaner separation of powers.
>
> In Canada the Speaker is elected by the members of Parliament though
> usually it's pre-determined by the party leaders and usually but not
> always is a member of the ruling party.
>
> While this sounds prejudicial it almost never is since the Speaker
> knows any accusations of favoritism would quickly become an election
> issue.

There is a very big reason why the US Constitution can't be amended to
do that. Neither political party WANTS that.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 14/06/22 10:31, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> On 6/13/2022 2:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>
>>>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas
>>>> city
>>>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
>>>> rule...make
>>>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
>>>> consitution or
>>>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
>>>> and pass
>>>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own
>>>> courts, jails,
>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>> I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>>> That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>>> courting multiple disasters.
>>
>> With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
>> wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
>>
>> I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
>> could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
>>
>> I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
>> might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
>> appropriate.
>>
>
> The tourist had been enjoying her company, along with her friends, and
> attempted to make the first move by kissing the girl, which by loonie
> mores was unacceptable as the female is fully in control. The boys with
> her took objection and were going to space him but decided they needed a
> trial to do it properly. They encountered Mannie whom had acted as judge
> before and asked him to preside. All of them had to pony up a fee. The
> tourist (or the boys) could have objected to Mannie as the judge and
> they would have had to find another.
>
> The jury was volunteers offered payment, one of who was thrown out
> without his payment for falling asleep.

Was that about a court in Texas or an excerpt from the book?

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 10:32:07 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
> On 14/06/22 10:31, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> > On 6/13/2022 2:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >> On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> >>> On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> >>
> >>>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas
> >>>> city
> >>>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
> >>>> rule...make
> >>>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
> >>>> consitution or
> >>>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
> >>>> and pass
> >>>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own
> >>>> courts, jails,
> >>>> etc.
> >>>>
> >>> I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
> >>> That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
> >>> courting multiple disasters.
> >>
> >> With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
> >> wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
> >>
> >> I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
> >> could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
> >>
> >> I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
> >> might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
> >> appropriate.
> >>
> >
> > The tourist had been enjoying her company, along with her friends, and
> > attempted to make the first move by kissing the girl, which by loonie
> > mores was unacceptable as the female is fully in control. The boys with
> > her took objection and were going to space him but decided they needed a
> > trial to do it properly. They encountered Mannie whom had acted as judge
> > before and asked him to preside. All of them had to pony up a fee. The
> > tourist (or the boys) could have objected to Mannie as the judge and
> > they would have had to find another.
> >
> > The jury was volunteers offered payment, one of who was thrown out
> > without his payment for falling asleep.
> Was that about a court in Texas or an excerpt from the book?

It's from _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_; spacing someone is not really practical
in present-day Texas. Launch costs would be in the millions of dollars for something
that size and launches are scheduled months in advance.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On 15 Jun 2022, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote
(in article<9923ed12-cce1-48c9-b526-ea0fad2d5ae6n@googlegroups.com>):

> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 10:32:07 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
> > On 14/06/22 10:31, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> > > On 6/13/2022 2:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> > > > On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > > > > On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas
> > > > > > city
> > > > > > above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
> > > > > > rule...make
> > > > > > their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
> > > > > > consitution or
> > > > > > general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
> > > > > > and pass
> > > > > > their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own
> > > > > > courts, jails,
> > > > > > etc.
> > > > > I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
> > > > > That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
> > > > > courting multiple disasters.
> > > >
> > > > With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
> > > > wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
> > > >
> > > > I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
> > > > could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
> > > >
> > > > I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
> > > > might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
> > > > appropriate.
> > >
> > > The tourist had been enjoying her company, along with her friends, and
> > > attempted to make the first move by kissing the girl, which by loonie
> > > mores was unacceptable as the female is fully in control. The boys with
> > > her took objection and were going to space him but decided they needed a
> > > trial to do it properly. They encountered Mannie whom had acted as judge
> > > before and asked him to preside. All of them had to pony up a fee. The
> > > tourist (or the boys) could have objected to Mannie as the judge and
> > > they would have had to find another.
> > >
> > > The jury was volunteers offered payment, one of who was thrown out
> > > without his payment for falling asleep.
> > Was that about a court in Texas or an excerpt from the book?
>
> It's from _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_; spacing someone is not really
> practical
> in present-day Texas. Launch costs would be in the millions of dollars for
> something
> that size and launches are scheduled months in advance.

it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.
>
>
> Peter Wezeman
> anti-social Darwinist

On 6/15/2022 3:43 AM, Wolffan wrote:
> On 15 Jun 2022, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote
> (in article<9923ed12-cce1-48c9-b526-ea0fad2d5ae6n@googlegroups.com>):
>
>> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 10:32:07 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
>>> On 14/06/22 10:31, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>>>> On 6/13/2022 2:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>> On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas
>>>>>>> city
>>>>>>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
>>>>>>> rule...make
>>>>>>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
>>>>>>> consitution or
>>>>>>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
>>>>>>> and pass
>>>>>>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own
>>>>>>> courts, jails,
>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>> I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>>>>>> That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>>>>>> courting multiple disasters.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
>>>>> wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
>>>>>
>>>>> I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
>>>>> could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
>>>>> might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> The tourist had been enjoying her company, along with her friends, and
>>>> attempted to make the first move by kissing the girl, which by loonie
>>>> mores was unacceptable as the female is fully in control. The boys with
>>>> her took objection and were going to space him but decided they needed a
>>>> trial to do it properly. They encountered Mannie whom had acted as judge
>>>> before and asked him to preside. All of them had to pony up a fee. The
>>>> tourist (or the boys) could have objected to Mannie as the judge and
>>>> they would have had to find another.
>>>>
>>>> The jury was volunteers offered payment, one of who was thrown out
>>>> without his payment for falling asleep.
>>> Was that about a court in Texas or an excerpt from the book?
>>
>> It's from _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_; spacing someone is not really
>> practical
>> in present-day Texas. Launch costs would be in the millions of dollars for
>> something
>> that size and launches are scheduled months in advance.
>
> it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.

Just wait till he goes to Mexico again, then finish the Wall. :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 16:59:28 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 09:17:12 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 16:18:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>><dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 6/12/2022 10:50 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:04:44 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That still doesn't explain to me why grade schools "need" their own
>>>>>>> independent police force rather than the individual schools being
>>>>>>> covered by the LEO handling their location.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
>>>>>> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
>>>>>> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
>>>>>> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
>>>>>> elementary schools
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
>>>>>> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
>>>>>> years it's a bad year.
>>>>>
>The town of 2 1/2 million I mentioned was Vancouver so likely more in
>common with Seattle than Texas.
>
>In Seattle are these various courts all in one building or separate
>buildings for separate courts? Here they're mostly in one building
>except for the family courts which are mostly about divorces + custody
>or the occasional family related criminal matter.

It's ... complicated.

I've served on two six-person juries and been summoned as a potential
juror four times.

The municpal court was, to the best of my recollection, separate from
the other two.

The other two, I think, occupied different floors (and had different
setups) of the same building -- at least, in downtown Seattle. There
was, at least for the State, another building to the south (IIRC) of
Seattle. It may or may not have had Federal as well. These were
apparently placed next to jails; there were two to avoid overcrowding.

I was fortunate in that I was always summoned to the downtown area, as
I live in North Seattle. Both buildings pulled their juries from the
entire County (State/Federal; Municipal, presumably, only pulled from
Seattle) so I could have had a severe transportation problem had I
been summoned to the southern location. (I don't have a car; public
transit works but, let's face it, traveling that far by bus takes
quite a while.)

>Canadian jails are usually NOT part of police or courtroom buildings
>except for initial arrest (police) and a few holding areas (criminal
>courts) with accuseds being transported back and forth between court +
>jail most of the time.

Same here, I think.

>>I don't know about Texas, but Seattle's Municipal Court system is
>>basically limited to some misdemeanors and some civil cases. The State
>>courts (I think) take on the more serious cases. And then, of course,
>>there are the Federal courts as well.
>>
>>But I am surprised that small cities would do this, as it must surely
>>cost them money to build jails and courtrooms, which to me implies
>>/new taxes/ compared to before they did this. Or do they just finance
>>it by fleecing any stranger who has the misfortune to drive through?
>
>On your last point there have been several recent cases involving
>police seizures:
>https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/bc-administrative-forfeiture-system-ripe-for-abuse-say-critics

I was thinking of incidents in (where else?) Texas that were so
blatantly wrong that their Legislature actually amended their Civil
Forfeiture laws to prevent them.

This was, by now, perhaps a decade ago.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 14:58:52 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
wrote:

>On 13 Jun 2022, Charles Packer wrote
>(in article <gNBpK.157965$70j.135003@fx16.iad>):
>
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:28:10 -0400, Wolffan wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > FDR continued to ignore VPs, including Truman.
>>
>> Which is consistent with the Constitution...
>
>Yeah. But not very prudent. If the prez drops dead, it’d be nice to be able
>to get hold of the VP fairly quickly, and it’d be nicer if the VP had some
>clues as to what was going on. Garner was in Texas for months before anyone
>noticed he was gone, and for most of the time he spent in Washington before
>going back to Texas he spent most of his time in various bars. If FDR had
>died then, there would have been problems finding Garner. Truman didn’t
>know about a lot of things which he was responsible for as soon as he became
>prez, not least the atomic bomb.
>
>There’s a _reason_ why having, for example, Danny Quayle as VP was such a
>bad idea. (Other bad VPs are available.)

But ... but ... but

-- any other choice would have caused the ticket to invert, and Bush
was tired of being VP

It was probably /very hard/ to find someone more ignorable than Bush.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On 15 Jun 2022, Dimensional Traveler wrote
(in article <t8cdnn$fss$1@dont-email.me>):

> On 6/15/2022 3:43 AM, Wolffan wrote:
> > On 15 Jun 2022, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote
> > (in article<9923ed12-cce1-48c9-b526-ea0fad2d5ae6n@googlegroups.com>):
> >
> > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 10:32:07 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
> > > > On 14/06/22 10:31, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> > > > > On 6/13/2022 2:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> > > > > > On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > > > > > > On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas
> > > > > > > > city
> > > > > > > > above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
> > > > > > > > rule...make
> > > > > > > > their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
> > > > > > > > consitution or
> > > > > > > > general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
> > > > > > > > and pass
> > > > > > > > their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own
> > > > > > > > courts, jails,
> > > > > > > > etc.
> > > > > > > I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
> > > > > > > That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
> > > > > > > courting multiple disasters.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
> > > > > > wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
> > > > > > could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
> > > > > > might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
> > > > > > appropriate.
> > > > >
> > > > > The tourist had been enjoying her company, along with her friends, and
> > > > > attempted to make the first move by kissing the girl, which by loonie
> > > > > mores was unacceptable as the female is fully in control. The boys with
> > > > > her took objection and were going to space him but decided they needed a
> > > > > trial to do it properly. They encountered Mannie whom had acted as judge
> > > > > before and asked him to preside. All of them had to pony up a fee. The
> > > > > tourist (or the boys) could have objected to Mannie as the judge and
> > > > > they would have had to find another.
> > > > >
> > > > > The jury was volunteers offered payment, one of who was thrown out
> > > > > without his payment for falling asleep.
> > > > Was that about a court in Texas or an excerpt from the book?
> > >
> > > It's from _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_; spacing someone is not really
> > > practical
> > > in present-day Texas. Launch costs would be in the millions of dollars for
> > > something
> > > that size and launches are scheduled months in advance.
> >
> > it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.
>
> Just wait till he goes to Mexico again, then finish the Wall. :P

The Mexicans would object. And rightly so.

On 6/15/2022 2:05 PM, Wolffan wrote:
> On 15 Jun 2022, Dimensional Traveler wrote
> (in article <t8cdnn$fss$1@dont-email.me>):
>
>> On 6/15/2022 3:43 AM, Wolffan wrote:
>>> On 15 Jun 2022, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote
>>> (in article<9923ed12-cce1-48c9-b526-ea0fad2d5ae6n@googlegroups.com>):
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 10:32:07 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
>>>>> On 14/06/22 10:31, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/13/2022 2:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas
>>>>>>>>> city
>>>>>>>>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
>>>>>>>>> rule...make
>>>>>>>>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
>>>>>>>>> consitution or
>>>>>>>>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
>>>>>>>>> and pass
>>>>>>>>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own
>>>>>>>>> courts, jails,
>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>> I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>>>>>>>> That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>>>>>>>> courting multiple disasters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
>>>>>>> wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
>>>>>>> could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
>>>>>>> might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
>>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The tourist had been enjoying her company, along with her friends, and
>>>>>> attempted to make the first move by kissing the girl, which by loonie
>>>>>> mores was unacceptable as the female is fully in control. The boys with
>>>>>> her took objection and were going to space him but decided they needed a
>>>>>> trial to do it properly. They encountered Mannie whom had acted as judge
>>>>>> before and asked him to preside. All of them had to pony up a fee. The
>>>>>> tourist (or the boys) could have objected to Mannie as the judge and
>>>>>> they would have had to find another.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The jury was volunteers offered payment, one of who was thrown out
>>>>>> without his payment for falling asleep.
>>>>> Was that about a court in Texas or an excerpt from the book?
>>>>
>>>> It's from _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_; spacing someone is not really
>>>> practical
>>>> in present-day Texas. Launch costs would be in the millions of dollars for
>>>> something
>>>> that size and launches are scheduled months in advance.
>>>
>>> it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.
>>
>> Just wait till he goes to Mexico again, then finish the Wall. :P
>
> The Mexicans would object. And rightly so.
>
Like Cruz would care, he wants the Wall finished.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 17:07:00 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>> While this sounds prejudicial it almost never is since the Speaker
>> knows any accusations of favoritism would quickly become an election
>> issue.
>
>There is a very big reason why the US Constitution can't be amended to
>do that. Neither political party WANTS that.
>
Well let's face it on the matter of constsitutional issues affecting
operations in the US Congress that matters more than most points of
constittuional law.

(I nearly said 'that trumps the actual wording of the Constitution'
someone would surely squawk about the "reference that wasn't a
reference" towards the Donald)

On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 03:53:43 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>> it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.
>
>Just wait till he goes to Mexico again, then finish the Wall. :P
>
So are you proposing the complete the wall before or after Cruz
returns from Mexico? Heh heh heh

On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:11:03 -0700, Paul S Person
<psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 16:59:28 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>>>>>> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
>>>>>>> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
>>>>>>> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
>>>>>>> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
>>>>>>> elementary schools
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
>>>>>>> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
>>>>>>> years it's a bad year.
>>>>>>
>>The town of 2 1/2 million I mentioned was Vancouver so likely more in
>>common with Seattle than Texas.
>>
>>In Seattle are these various courts all in one building or separate
>>buildings for separate courts? Here they're mostly in one building
>>except for the family courts which are mostly about divorces + custody
>>or the occasional family related criminal matter.
>
>It's ... complicated.

Courts tend to be that way :)

I'm not sure how jury selection is done in BC - I've been called 4
times, 2 cases were "plea-d" before coming to trial before I had to
appear, another time was for a civil trial - settled 'on the steps of
the courthouse' and only on the 4th did I actually have to appear
which I did but was excused on a defence challenge.

A 5th time I was excused as it was about 3 weeks after the death of a
close family member who had died and I was currently doing my job, HER
job and my father's job (who was grieving and spending more time out
of store than in and not really working when he was there anyhow) and
got a postponement - not an excusal - on compassionate grounds.

I'm pretty sure in Canada they using the registered voter's list
though the downtown courthouse was in a different federal electoral
district from where I live. (Not surprising since a Canadian electoral
district has about 125k voters and Vancouver has 2.5 million people)

When I was recused on the defence challenge, the judge called my name
told me I was excused and I double checked with the court sheriff to
verify I was really free to go (since leaving the courtroom when
you're not supposed to can REALLY spoil your day!) I wished him a good
day and exited.

>I've served on two six-person juries and been summoned as a potential
>juror four times.
>
>The municpal court was, to the best of my recollection, separate from
>the other two.
>
>The other two, I think, occupied different floors (and had different
>setups) of the same building -- at least, in downtown Seattle. There
>was, at least for the State, another building to the south (IIRC) of
>Seattle. It may or may not have had Federal as well. These were
>apparently placed next to jails; there were two to avoid overcrowding.
>
>I was fortunate in that I was always summoned to the downtown area, as
>I live in North Seattle. Both buildings pulled their juries from the
>entire County (State/Federal; Municipal, presumably, only pulled from
>Seattle) so I could have had a severe transportation problem had I
>been summoned to the southern location. (I don't have a car; public
>transit works but, let's face it, traveling that far by bus takes
>quite a while.)
>
>>Canadian jails are usually NOT part of police or courtroom buildings
>>except for initial arrest (police) and a few holding areas (criminal
>>courts) with accuseds being transported back and forth between court +
>>jail most of the time.
>
>Same here, I think.
>
>>>I don't know about Texas, but Seattle's Municipal Court system is
>>>basically limited to some misdemeanors and some civil cases. The State
>>>courts (I think) take on the more serious cases. And then, of course,
>>>there are the Federal courts as well.

The state + Federal courts - are they in Olympia or Seattle? (For
those unfamiliar with the geography Olympia is the state capital and
about an hour's drive away but only 1/20 the size of Seattle)

>>>But I am surprised that small cities would do this, as it must surely
>>>cost them money to build jails and courtrooms, which to me implies
>>>/new taxes/ compared to before they did this. Or do they just finance
>>>it by fleecing any stranger who has the misfortune to drive through?
>>
>>On your last point there have been several recent cases involving
>>police seizures:
>>https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/bc-administrative-forfeiture-system-ripe-for-abuse-say-critics
>
>I was thinking of incidents in (where else?) Texas that were so
>blatantly wrong that their Legislature actually amended their Civil
>Forfeiture laws to prevent them.
>
>This was, by now, perhaps a decade ago.

Whereas the newspaper link I posted was within the past week and was
from one of their regular columnists. The whole point was that while
the forfeiture system has an appeal process, if you're poor you have
virtually no chance to appeal a forfeiture order meaning police are
effectively judge jury + executioner for civil forfeiture matters.

On 6/15/2022 4:50 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:11:03 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 16:59:28 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
>>>>>>>> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
>>>>>>>> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
>>>>>>>> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
>>>>>>>> elementary schools
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
>>>>>>>> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
>>>>>>>> years it's a bad year.
>>>>>>>
>>> The town of 2 1/2 million I mentioned was Vancouver so likely more in
>>> common with Seattle than Texas.
>>>
>>> In Seattle are these various courts all in one building or separate
>>> buildings for separate courts? Here they're mostly in one building
>>> except for the family courts which are mostly about divorces + custody
>>> or the occasional family related criminal matter.
>>
>> It's ... complicated.
>
> Courts tend to be that way :)
>
> I'm not sure how jury selection is done in BC - I've been called 4
> times, 2 cases were "plea-d" before coming to trial before I had to
> appear, another time was for a civil trial - settled 'on the steps of
> the courthouse' and only on the 4th did I actually have to appear
> which I did but was excused on a defence challenge.
>
> A 5th time I was excused as it was about 3 weeks after the death of a
> close family member who had died and I was currently doing my job, HER
> job and my father's job (who was grieving and spending more time out
> of store than in and not really working when he was there anyhow) and
> got a postponement - not an excusal - on compassionate grounds.
>
> I'm pretty sure in Canada they using the registered voter's list
> though the downtown courthouse was in a different federal electoral
> district from where I live. (Not surprising since a Canadian electoral
> district has about 125k voters and Vancouver has 2.5 million people)
>
> When I was recused on the defence challenge, the judge called my name
> told me I was excused and I double checked with the court sheriff to
> verify I was really free to go (since leaving the courtroom when
> you're not supposed to can REALLY spoil your day!) I wished him a good
> day and exited.
>
>> I've served on two six-person juries and been summoned as a potential
>> juror four times.
>>
>> The municpal court was, to the best of my recollection, separate from
>> the other two.
>>
>> The other two, I think, occupied different floors (and had different
>> setups) of the same building -- at least, in downtown Seattle. There
>> was, at least for the State, another building to the south (IIRC) of
>> Seattle. It may or may not have had Federal as well. These were
>> apparently placed next to jails; there were two to avoid overcrowding.
>>
>> I was fortunate in that I was always summoned to the downtown area, as
>> I live in North Seattle. Both buildings pulled their juries from the
>> entire County (State/Federal; Municipal, presumably, only pulled from
>> Seattle) so I could have had a severe transportation problem had I
>> been summoned to the southern location. (I don't have a car; public
>> transit works but, let's face it, traveling that far by bus takes
>> quite a while.)
>>
>>> Canadian jails are usually NOT part of police or courtroom buildings
>>> except for initial arrest (police) and a few holding areas (criminal
>>> courts) with accuseds being transported back and forth between court +
>>> jail most of the time.
>>
>> Same here, I think.
>>
>>>> I don't know about Texas, but Seattle's Municipal Court system is
>>>> basically limited to some misdemeanors and some civil cases. The State
>>>> courts (I think) take on the more serious cases. And then, of course,
>>>> there are the Federal courts as well.
>
> The state + Federal courts - are they in Olympia or Seattle? (For
> those unfamiliar with the geography Olympia is the state capital and
> about an hour's drive away but only 1/20 the size of Seattle)
>
>>>> But I am surprised that small cities would do this, as it must surely
>>>> cost them money to build jails and courtrooms, which to me implies
>>>> /new taxes/ compared to before they did this. Or do they just finance
>>>> it by fleecing any stranger who has the misfortune to drive through?
>>>
>>> On your last point there have been several recent cases involving
>>> police seizures:
>>> https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/bc-administrative-forfeiture-system-ripe-for-abuse-say-critics
>>
>> I was thinking of incidents in (where else?) Texas that were so
>> blatantly wrong that their Legislature actually amended their Civil
>> Forfeiture laws to prevent them.
>>
>> This was, by now, perhaps a decade ago.
>
> Whereas the newspaper link I posted was within the past week and was
> from one of their regular columnists. The whole point was that while
> the forfeiture system has an appeal process, if you're poor you have
> virtually no chance to appeal a forfeiture order meaning police are
> effectively judge jury + executioner for civil forfeiture matters.

https://reason.com/2022/05/19/michigan-couple-says-town-seized-their-building-and-offered-to-return-it-if-they-bought-two-cars-for-police/

The city of Highland, MI seized a 13,000 sq ft building for no reason
and offered to return it to the owners if they bought the police
department two cars (for $70,000) and stopped legally growing marijuana
in it.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/15/2022 4:39 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 03:53:43 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>> it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.
>>
>> Just wait till he goes to Mexico again, then finish the Wall. :P
>>
> So are you proposing the complete the wall before or after Cruz
> returns from Mexico? Heh heh heh

Before, of course.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/15/2022 4:38 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 17:07:00 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>> While this sounds prejudicial it almost never is since the Speaker
>>> knows any accusations of favoritism would quickly become an election
>>> issue.
>>
>> There is a very big reason why the US Constitution can't be amended to
>> do that. Neither political party WANTS that.
>>
> Well let's face it on the matter of constsitutional issues affecting
> operations in the US Congress that matters more than most points of
> constittuional law.
>
> (I nearly said 'that trumps the actual wording of the Constitution'
> someone would surely squawk about the "reference that wasn't a
> reference" towards the Donald)

Actually the Constitution says damn near nothing about how Congress is
supposed to operate, saying that it is up to Congress to determine that.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 7:27:34 PM UTC-6, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 6/15/2022 4:50 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:

> https://reason.com/2022/05/19/michigan-couple-says-town-seized-their-building-and-offered-to-return-it-if-they-bought-two-cars-for-police/

> The city of Highland, MI seized a 13,000 sq ft building for no reason
> and offered to return it to the owners if they bought the police
> department two cars (for $70,000) and stopped legally growing marijuana
> in it.

How anyone can possibly grow marijuana legally within the borders
of the United States is something of a puzzle to me.

Of course, it is true that there are some states where growing
marijuana is legal under State law, and the Federal government has
faced some obstructions to enforcing Federal law in this matter in
those states, but that's a different thing than "legally".

John Savard

In article <lerkah5uvc1lmfipksvetcgathtj9kfprr@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:11:03 -0700, Paul S Person
> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
> >I've served on two six-person juries and been summoned as a potential
> >juror four times.
> >
> >The municpal court was, to the best of my recollection, separate from
> >the other two.
> >

I believe that the various courts (municipal, superior, and Federal) are
in separate buildings in Seattle

> >The other two, I think, occupied different floors (and had different
> >setups) of the same building -- at least, in downtown Seattle. There
> >was, at least for the State, another building to the south (IIRC) of
> >Seattle. It may or may not have had Federal as well. These were
> >apparently placed next to jails; there were two to avoid overcrowding.
> >
> >I was fortunate in that I was always summoned to the downtown area, as
> >I live in North Seattle. Both buildings pulled their juries from the
> >entire County (State/Federal; Municipal, presumably, only pulled from
> >Seattle) so I could have had a severe transportation problem had I
> >been summoned to the southern location. (I don't have a car; public
> >transit works but, let's face it, traveling that far by bus takes
> >quite a while.)
> >
(snip)
>
> The state + Federal courts - are they in Olympia or Seattle? (For
> those unfamiliar with the geography Olympia is the state capital and
> about an hour's drive away but only 1/20 the size of Seattle)
>

While there is variations between the states, in general, there are
state appeals courts overseeing the rest of the state court system
(county and municipal). There is a superior court in each county* that
deal with violations of state laws. Most (if not all cities) have
municipal courts (with a limited jurisdiction). The Federal courts are
in whatever cities Congress finds appropriate (I believe that there is
at least 1 federal district court in each state).

*A few states don't have counties (Louisiana has parishes which I
believe are counties of a different name).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On 6/15/2022 10:13 PM, Robert Woodward wrote:
>
> *A few states don't have counties (Louisiana has parishes which I
> believe are counties of a different name).
>
Basically. Louisiana is a bit weird in that their legal code is based
on French Napoleonic Law rather than the rest of the country's which is
more English Common Law as I recall.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 16:50:40 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:11:03 -0700, Paul S Person
><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:

<snippo>

>The state + Federal courts - are they in Olympia or Seattle? (For
>those unfamiliar with the geography Olympia is the state capital and
>about an hour's drive away but only 1/20 the size of Seattle)

These were in Seattle.

I suspect that the State courts are organized by counties, but the
less populace Counties may be grouped together. The Federal Courts
would probably be based on Federal Court Districts, so some of the
State court locations might not have Federal courts as well.

There may also be some local history and tradition involved.

King County has a lot of people in it, so having both State and
Federal courts is not suprising. Putting them in the same building
probably makes sense, given land values in and near Seattle. And
Seattle (and suburbs) is where a lot of the people are, so it makes
sense as a location.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 22:13:44 -0700, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>In article <lerkah5uvc1lmfipksvetcgathtj9kfprr@4ax.com>,
> The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:11:03 -0700, Paul S Person
>> <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >I've served on two six-person juries and been summoned as a potential
>> >juror four times.
>> >
>> >The municpal court was, to the best of my recollection, separate from
>> >the other two.
>> >
>
>I believe that the various courts (municipal, superior, and Federal) are
>in separate buildings in Seattle

And you may be right but, if so, between the last time I was called
before the 2001 Nisqually quake and the last time I was called at all
(after Nisqually), these changes occurred:

1) the juror room was moved from a higher floor to the ground floor
2) we did /not/ see a brief film on our duties as jurors
3) the juror room was entirely chairs; on the higher floor, we had
tables and jigsaw puzzles to keep up occupied

The voter information form distinguished between the two, and my
conclusion was that both were in the same building.

The earthquake may be relevant because it damaged the building and
might have produced the changes. Or not.

<snippo>

>While there is variations between the states, in general, there are
>state appeals courts overseeing the rest of the state court system
>(county and municipal). There is a superior court in each county* that
>deal with violations of state laws. Most (if not all cities) have
>municipal courts (with a limited jurisdiction). The Federal courts are
>in whatever cities Congress finds appropriate (I believe that there is
>at least 1 federal district court in each state).

Good summary.

Jurors have little or no contact with appeals courts, of course.

>*A few states don't have counties (Louisiana has parishes which I
>believe are counties of a different name).

Louisiana's parishes are an echo, as it were, of their being a French
possession before the Louisiana Purchase. Their legal may or may not
still have some aspects of the Napoleonic Code for the same reason.

Presumably, originally, back in France, these actually /were/
parishes, in the religious sense. But not today, not in Louisiana.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 03:53:43 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 6/15/2022 3:43 AM, Wolffan wrote:

<snippo>

>> it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.
>
>Just wait till he goes to Mexico again, then finish the Wall. :P

Just put him on the "no-fly" list.

What, you think he'd wade back across the Rio Grande?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 16:50:40 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:11:03 -0700, Paul S Person
>><psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>
><snippo>
>
>>The state + Federal courts - are they in Olympia or Seattle? (For
>>those unfamiliar with the geography Olympia is the state capital and
>>about an hour's drive away but only 1/20 the size of Seattle)
>
>These were in Seattle.
>
>I suspect that the State courts are organized by counties, but the
>less populace Counties may be grouped together.

Each county has its own. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_court_system

>

On 6/16/2022 9:38 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jun 2022 03:53:43 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 6/15/2022 3:43 AM, Wolffan wrote:
>
> <snippo>
>
>>> it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.
>>
>> Just wait till he goes to Mexico again, then finish the Wall. :P
>
> Just put him on the "no-fly" list.
>
Does the "No-Fly" list apply to chartered private flights?

> What, you think he'd wade back across the Rio Grande?

Karma, she be a b.... :D

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 15 Jun 2022, Dimensional Traveler wrote
(in article <t8dml9$odb$1@dont-email.me>):

> On 6/15/2022 2:05 PM, Wolffan wrote:
> > On 15 Jun 2022, Dimensional Traveler wrote
> > (in article <t8cdnn$fss$1@dont-email.me>):
> >
> > > On 6/15/2022 3:43 AM, Wolffan wrote:
> > > > On 15 Jun 2022, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote
> > > > (in article<9923ed12-cce1-48c9-b526-ea0fad2d5ae6n@googlegroups.com>):
> > > >
> > > > > On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 10:32:07 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
> > > > > > On 14/06/22 10:31, Jay E. Morris wrote:
> > > > > > > On 6/13/2022 2:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas
> > > > > > > > > > city
> > > > > > > > > > above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
> > > > > > > > > > rule...make
> > > > > > > > > > their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
> > > > > > > > > > consitution or
> > > > > > > > > > general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
> > > > > > > > > > and pass
> > > > > > > > > > their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own
> > > > > > > > > > courts, jails,
> > > > > > > > > > etc.
> > > > > > > > > I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
> > > > > > > > > That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
> > > > > > > > > courting multiple disasters.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
> > > > > > > > wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
> > > > > > > > could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
> > > > > > > > might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
> > > > > > > > appropriate.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The tourist had been enjoying her company, along with her friends, and
> > > > > > > attempted to make the first move by kissing the girl, which by loonie
> > > > > > > mores was unacceptable as the female is fully in control. The boys with
> > > > > > > her took objection and were going to space him but decided they needed
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > trial to do it properly. They encountered Mannie whom had acted as
> > > > > > > judge
> > > > > > > before and asked him to preside. All of them had to pony up a fee. The
> > > > > > > tourist (or the boys) could have objected to Mannie as the judge and
> > > > > > > they would have had to find another.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The jury was volunteers offered payment, one of who was thrown out
> > > > > > > without his payment for falling asleep.
> > > > > > Was that about a court in Texas or an excerpt from the book?
> > > > >
> > > > > It's from _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_; spacing someone is not really
> > > > > practical
> > > > > in present-day Texas. Launch costs would be in the millions of dollars
> > > > > for
> > > > > something
> > > > > that size and launches are scheduled months in advance.
> > > >
> > > > it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.
> > >
> > > Just wait till he goes to Mexico again, then finish the Wall. :P
> >
> > The Mexicans would object. And rightly so.
> Like Cruz would care, he wants the Wall finished.

Cruz would care if he’s on the other side. The Mexicans would care because
they have enough rubbish of their own, they don’t need yanqui bullshit
artists.

On 6/16/2022 6:17 PM, Wolffan wrote:
> On 15 Jun 2022, Dimensional Traveler wrote
> (in article <t8dml9$odb$1@dont-email.me>):
>
>> On 6/15/2022 2:05 PM, Wolffan wrote:
>>> On 15 Jun 2022, Dimensional Traveler wrote
>>> (in article <t8cdnn$fss$1@dont-email.me>):
>>>
>>>> On 6/15/2022 3:43 AM, Wolffan wrote:
>>>>> On 15 Jun 2022, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote
>>>>> (in article<9923ed12-cce1-48c9-b526-ea0fad2d5ae6n@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 10:32:07 PM UTC-5, Titus G wrote:
>>>>>>> On 14/06/22 10:31, Jay E. Morris wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 6/13/2022 2:52 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/06/2022 18.18, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rksh...@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas
>>>>>>>>>>> city
>>>>>>>>>>> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home
>>>>>>>>>>> rule...make
>>>>>>>>>>> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state
>>>>>>>>>>> consitution or
>>>>>>>>>>> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter
>>>>>>>>>>> and pass
>>>>>>>>>>> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own
>>>>>>>>>>> courts, jails,
>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>> I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
>>>>>>>>>> That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
>>>>>>>>>> courting multiple disasters.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With the "free market trials" in _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_,
>>>>>>>>> wasn't there the possibility of multiple competing courts?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I seem to recall that the tourist who'd been harassing a local gal
>>>>>>>>> could have bought a trial by a different "judge", if he'd desired.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am not saying anything about how good or bad the Loony system
>>>>>>>>> might have been. I just bringing up some written SF that seems
>>>>>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The tourist had been enjoying her company, along with her friends, and
>>>>>>>> attempted to make the first move by kissing the girl, which by loonie
>>>>>>>> mores was unacceptable as the female is fully in control. The boys with
>>>>>>>> her took objection and were going to space him but decided they needed
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> trial to do it properly. They encountered Mannie whom had acted as
>>>>>>>> judge
>>>>>>>> before and asked him to preside. All of them had to pony up a fee. The
>>>>>>>> tourist (or the boys) could have objected to Mannie as the judge and
>>>>>>>> they would have had to find another.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The jury was volunteers offered payment, one of who was thrown out
>>>>>>>> without his payment for falling asleep.
>>>>>>> Was that about a court in Texas or an excerpt from the book?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's from _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_; spacing someone is not really
>>>>>> practical
>>>>>> in present-day Texas. Launch costs would be in the millions of dollars
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> something
>>>>>> that size and launches are scheduled months in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> it’d be worth it to get rid of, say, Ted Cruz.
>>>>
>>>> Just wait till he goes to Mexico again, then finish the Wall. :P
>>>
>>> The Mexicans would object. And rightly so.
>> Like Cruz would care, he wants the Wall finished.
>
> Cruz would care if he’s on the other side. The Mexicans would care because
> they have enough rubbish of their own, they don’t need yanqui bullshit
> artists.
>
And if a recent administration gave a bowel movement about what Mexico
wanted or needed it wouldn't have started building The Wall in the first
place, let alone tried to make them _pay_ for it. :P

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.