According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
initiative.

"A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored orders
not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
. . .
In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team’s response.

“No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,” the
person said. “It was chaos.”

The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
by two officials familiar with their debriefing.

After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had arrived ready
to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.

One of the members — equipped with an earpiece and small microphone —
quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to go into
the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
breach the doors.

They ignored the directive.

As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet striking him
in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the Border
Patrol agents.

link to full article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html

There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement response
in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and training.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
<peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:

>According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>initiative.
>
>"A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored orders
>not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
> . . .
>In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team’s response.
>
>“No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,” the
>person said. “It was chaos.”
>
>The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>
>After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had arrived ready
>to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>
>One of the members — equipped with an earpiece and small microphone —
>quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to go into
>the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>breach the doors.
>
>They ignored the directive.
>
>As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet striking him
>in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the Border
>Patrol agents.
>
>link to full article:
>
>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>
>There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement response
>in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and training.

And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
not.

At least he's not blaming it on the pro-choice movement, as some have.
Or first-person shooter games, a favorite evasion of the problem.

And the Massive Lawsuit is already visible on the horizon.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> link to full article:
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>
>

Incidentally, with the Uvalde incident
the well-known phrase "gun culture" has come home, sort of, after
59 years. In November 1963 within four days after
JFK's assassination the phrase was first used, by Dan Rather,
in radio talks about Texas. Rather was at CBS station KRLD Dallas
and on the day of the assassination had been working on an
interview of John Nance Garner recorded in Uvalde. Garner, who had
been FDR's vice president, was from Uvalde and the
interview was associated with his 95th birthday, which was
on the 22nd.

Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>>who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>>initiative.
>>
>>"A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored orders
>>not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>>girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>>two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
>> . . .
>>In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>>enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>>were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>>unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team?s response.
>>
>>?No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,? the
>>person said. ?It was chaos.?
>>
>>The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>>by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>>
>>After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had arrived ready
>>to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>>
>>One of the members ? equipped with an earpiece and small microphone ?
>>quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to go into
>>the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>>breach the doors.
>>
>>They ignored the directive.
>>
>>As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>>person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet striking him
>>in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the Border
>>Patrol agents.
>>
>>link to full article:
>>
>>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>
>>There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement response
>>in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and training.
>
> And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
> not.

I think it's better stated that the guy who was supposed to be in charge
didn't realize it. Which, since he was the head of the school district's
police force and everyone else was in his jurisdiction, meant nobody
was in charge.
I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the district my
son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they rely
on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to provide
security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On 6/11/2022 10:53 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>> who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>> initiative.
>>
>> "A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored orders
>> not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>> girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>> two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
>> . . .
>> In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>> enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>> were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>> unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team’s response.
>>
>> “No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,” the
>> person said. “It was chaos.”
>>
>> The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>> by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>>
>> After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had arrived ready
>> to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>>
>> One of the members — equipped with an earpiece and small microphone —
>> quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to go into
>> the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>> breach the doors.
>>
>> They ignored the directive.
>>
>> As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>> person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet striking him
>> in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the Border
>> Patrol agents.
>>
>> link to full article:
>>
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>
>> There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement response
>> in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and training.
>
> And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
> not.
>
> At least he's not blaming it on the pro-choice movement, as some have.
> Or first-person shooter games, a favorite evasion of the problem.
>
> And the Massive Lawsuit is already visible on the horizon.

The Massive Lawsuit was on the horizon before the shooter was dead.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/11/2022 12:55 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>>> who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>>> initiative.
>>>
>>> "A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored orders
>>> not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>>> girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>>> two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
>>> . . .
>>> In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>>> enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>>> were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>>> unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team?s response.
>>>
>>> ?No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,? the
>>> person said. ?It was chaos.?
>>>
>>> The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>>> by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>>>
>>> After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had arrived ready
>>> to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>>>
>>> One of the members ? equipped with an earpiece and small microphone ?
>>> quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to go into
>>> the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>>> breach the doors.
>>>
>>> They ignored the directive.
>>>
>>> As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>>> person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet striking him
>>> in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the Border
>>> Patrol agents.
>>>
>>> link to full article:
>>>
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>>
>>> There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement response
>>> in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and training.
>>
>> And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
>> not.
>
> I think it's better stated that the guy who was supposed to be in charge
> didn't realize it. Which, since he was the head of the school district's
> police force and everyone else was in his jurisdiction, meant nobody
> was in charge.
> I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
> officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the district my
> son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they rely
> on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to provide
> security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>
Texas. :D

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 6/11/2022 12:55 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>>>> who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>>>> initiative.
>>>>
>>>> "A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored orders
>>>> not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>>>> girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>>>> two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
>>>> . . .
>>>> In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>>>> enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>>>> were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>>>> unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team?s response.
>>>>
>>>> ?No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,? the
>>>> person said. ?It was chaos.?
>>>>
>>>> The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>>>> by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>>>>
>>>> After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had arrived ready
>>>> to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>>>>
>>>> One of the members ? equipped with an earpiece and small microphone ?
>>>> quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to go into
>>>> the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>>>> breach the doors.
>>>>
>>>> They ignored the directive.
>>>>
>>>> As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>>>> person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet striking him
>>>> in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the Border
>>>> Patrol agents.
>>>>
>>>> link to full article:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>>>
>>>> There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement response
>>>> in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and training.
>>>
>>> And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
>>> not.
>>
>> I think it's better stated that the guy who was supposed to be in charge
>> didn't realize it. Which, since he was the head of the school district's
>> police force and everyone else was in his jurisdiction, meant nobody
>> was in charge.
>> I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>> officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the district my
>> son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they rely
>> on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to provide
>> security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>>
> Texas. :D

What's the usual solution for a small town with low population density and
no real crime problems? It's more than doubled in size since we moved in,
but we're still only at around 8000 population and a density of 500/sq mi.
Fire-rescue currently costs about $3.5 million/year (over half the city
budget). A police department would likely cost a lot more. That money would
have to be extracted from the than 3000 households...figure at least
$1500 per household per year. With sales taxes pretty much maxed out (and
only two retailers in town) that means doubling property taxes.
One thing that living in a small town has taught me is that money spent by
the government really is extracted from individuals...literally in some
cases. When they incorporated the neighborhood that our house is in the city
upgraded the neighborhood roads to the point they could get their fire trucks
in and out. This was before our time, but the lien they put on each property
is still in the records...something like $700/house with the lien being
released once the bill was paid.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On 6/11/2022 7:31 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 6/11/2022 12:55 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>>>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>>>>> who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>>>>> initiative.
>>>>>
>>>>> "A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored orders
>>>>> not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>>>>> girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>>>>> two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
>>>>> . . .
>>>>> In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>>>>> enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>>>>> were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>>>>> unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team?s response.
>>>>>
>>>>> ?No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,? the
>>>>> person said. ?It was chaos.?
>>>>>
>>>>> The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>>>>> by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>>>>>
>>>>> After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had arrived ready
>>>>> to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the members ? equipped with an earpiece and small microphone ?
>>>>> quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to go into
>>>>> the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>>>>> breach the doors.
>>>>>
>>>>> They ignored the directive.
>>>>>
>>>>> As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>>>>> person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet striking him
>>>>> in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the Border
>>>>> Patrol agents.
>>>>>
>>>>> link to full article:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>>>>
>>>>> There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement response
>>>>> in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and training.
>>>>
>>>> And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
>>>> not.
>>>
>>> I think it's better stated that the guy who was supposed to be in charge
>>> didn't realize it. Which, since he was the head of the school district's
>>> police force and everyone else was in his jurisdiction, meant nobody
>>> was in charge.
>>> I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>>> officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the district my
>>> son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they rely
>>> on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to provide
>>> security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>>>
>> Texas. :D
>
> What's the usual solution for a small town with low population density and
> no real crime problems? It's more than doubled in size since we moved in,
> but we're still only at around 8000 population and a density of 500/sq mi.
> Fire-rescue currently costs about $3.5 million/year (over half the city
> budget). A police department would likely cost a lot more. That money would
> have to be extracted from the than 3000 households...figure at least
> $1500 per household per year. With sales taxes pretty much maxed out (and
> only two retailers in town) that means doubling property taxes.
> One thing that living in a small town has taught me is that money spent by
> the government really is extracted from individuals...literally in some
> cases. When they incorporated the neighborhood that our house is in the city
> upgraded the neighborhood roads to the point they could get their fire trucks
> in and out. This was before our time, but the lien they put on each property
> is still in the records...something like $700/house with the lien being
> released once the bill was paid.
>
The usual way of handling that is let the county sheriff's office be the
town's police force as part of their handling all the rest of the county
that doesn't have a dedicated force. In most states the sheriffs are
senior to the town/city police forces anyways.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 6/11/2022 8:51 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 6/11/2022 7:31 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 6/11/2022 12:55 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>>>>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>>>>>> who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>>>>>> initiative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored
>>>>>> orders
>>>>>> not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>>>>>> girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>>>>>> two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
>>>>>>                                              .
>>>>>> .           .
>>>>>> In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>>>>>> enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>>>>>> were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>>>>>> unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team?s response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ?No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,?
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> person said. ?It was chaos.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>>>>>> by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had
>>>>>> arrived ready
>>>>>> to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of the members ? equipped with an earpiece and small microphone ?
>>>>>> quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to
>>>>>> go into
>>>>>> the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>>>>>> breach the doors.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They ignored the directive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>>>>>> person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet
>>>>>> striking him
>>>>>> in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the
>>>>>> Border
>>>>>> Patrol agents.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> link to full article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement
>>>>>> response
>>>>>> in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and
>>>>>> training.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
>>>>> not.
>>>>
>>>> I think it's better stated that the guy who was supposed to be in
>>>> charge
>>>> didn't realize it. Which, since he was the head of the school
>>>> district's
>>>> police force and everyone else was in his jurisdiction, meant nobody
>>>> was in charge.
>>>> I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>>>> officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the
>>>> district my
>>>> son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they
>>>> rely
>>>> on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to
>>>> provide
>>>> security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>>>>
>>> Texas.  :D
>>
>> What's the usual solution for a small town with low population density
>> and
>> no real crime problems? It's more than doubled in size since we moved in,
>> but we're still only at around 8000 population and a density of 500/sq
>> mi.
>> Fire-rescue currently costs about $3.5 million/year (over half the city
>> budget). A police department would likely cost a lot more. That money
>> would
>> have to be extracted from the than 3000 households...figure at least
>> $1500 per household per year. With sales taxes pretty much maxed out (and
>> only two retailers in town) that means doubling property taxes.
>> One thing that living in a small town has taught me is that money
>> spent by
>> the government really is extracted from individuals...literally in some
>> cases. When they incorporated the neighborhood that our house is in
>> the city
>> upgraded the neighborhood roads to the point they could get their fire
>> trucks
>> in and out. This was before our time, but the lien they put on each
>> property
>> is still in the records...something like $700/house with the lien being
>> released once the bill was paid.
>>
> The usual way of handling that is let the county sheriff's office be the
> town's police force as part of their handling all the rest of the county
> that doesn't have a dedicated force.  In most states the sheriffs are
> senior to the town/city police forces anyways.
>
A few more thoughts. Why does a school district of _grade schools_ need
a police force in the first place? And if the area can't support a
police force for the whole town, how is it paying for one for just the
school(s)? And how are the laws in Texas written so that a school
district police force somehow is more senior than the local city police
force, the county sheriff, the Texas Rangers and a Federal Law
Enforcement Agency?

Where I am if a city police force (or multi-city force, we have several
neighboring cities in the county who merged their individual forces into
a joint police force some years ago) calls for the county sheriff's
office for help on a _traffic stop_, the deputy who responds takes
command of the scene. If its the state police that responds, _they_
take command from the sheriff's office. Automatically.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 19:55:31 -0000 (UTC), rkshullat@rosettacondot.com
wrote:

>I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the district my
>son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they rely
>on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to provide
>security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.

I dunno - in my municipality if the cops refused to attending a
shooting incident at a local high school, the city council would be
looking for new cops in near record time.....

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 6/11/2022 8:51 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>> On 6/11/2022 7:31 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>> On 6/11/2022 12:55 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>>>>>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>>>>>>> who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>>>>>>> initiative.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored
>>>>>>> orders
>>>>>>> not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>>>>>>> girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>>>>>>> two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
>>>>>>>                                              .
>>>>>>> .           .
>>>>>>> In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>>>>>>> enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>>>>>>> were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>>>>>>> unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team?s response.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,?
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> person said. ?It was chaos.?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>>>>>>> by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had
>>>>>>> arrived ready
>>>>>>> to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of the members ? equipped with an earpiece and small microphone ?
>>>>>>> quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to
>>>>>>> go into
>>>>>>> the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>>>>>>> breach the doors.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They ignored the directive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>>>>>>> person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet
>>>>>>> striking him
>>>>>>> in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the
>>>>>>> Border
>>>>>>> Patrol agents.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> link to full article:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement
>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>> in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and
>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
>>>>>> not.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think it's better stated that the guy who was supposed to be in
>>>>> charge
>>>>> didn't realize it. Which, since he was the head of the school
>>>>> district's
>>>>> police force and everyone else was in his jurisdiction, meant nobody
>>>>> was in charge.
>>>>> I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>>>>> officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the
>>>>> district my
>>>>> son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they
>>>>> rely
>>>>> on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to
>>>>> provide
>>>>> security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>>>>>
>>>> Texas.  :D
>>>
>>> What's the usual solution for a small town with low population density
>>> and
>>> no real crime problems? It's more than doubled in size since we moved in,
>>> but we're still only at around 8000 population and a density of 500/sq
>>> mi.
>>> Fire-rescue currently costs about $3.5 million/year (over half the city
>>> budget). A police department would likely cost a lot more. That money
>>> would
>>> have to be extracted from the than 3000 households...figure at least
>>> $1500 per household per year. With sales taxes pretty much maxed out (and
>>> only two retailers in town) that means doubling property taxes.
>>> One thing that living in a small town has taught me is that money
>>> spent by
>>> the government really is extracted from individuals...literally in some
>>> cases. When they incorporated the neighborhood that our house is in
>>> the city
>>> upgraded the neighborhood roads to the point they could get their fire
>>> trucks
>>> in and out. This was before our time, but the lien they put on each
>>> property
>>> is still in the records...something like $700/house with the lien being
>>> released once the bill was paid.
>>>
>> The usual way of handling that is let the county sheriff's office be the
>> town's police force as part of their handling all the rest of the county
>> that doesn't have a dedicated force.  In most states the sheriffs are
>> senior to the town/city police forces anyways.
>>
> A few more thoughts. Why does a school district of _grade schools_ need
> a police force in the first place? And if the area can't support a
> police force for the whole town, how is it paying for one for just the
> school(s)? And how are the laws in Texas written so that a school
> district police force somehow is more senior than the local city police
> force, the county sheriff, the Texas Rangers and a Federal Law
> Enforcement Agency?

Jurisdiction and responsibilities. If there's a city or school police force
they should understand the environment and situation better than a random
responder from somewhere else. The county sheriff's office isn't funded or
staffed to be the primary law enforcement for a city of any size. The Texas
Department of Public Safety (the Rangers are a small division of that) is
more a state bureau of investigation than a state police force. The closest
thing to that would be the Highway Patrol in the DPS, but they've got roughly
1 trooper per 100 sq miles (and about 1 Ranger per 1500 sq miles).
Likewise the county sheriffs...they have the general responsibility of
law enforcement in their counties but they also operate the county jail,
provide court security, serve warrants, etc. If they show up at a school
it might be the first time they've ever been there, unless they happen to
have kids attending. They also might not have had the training that school
district officers, or city officers assigned to a school, have had (or are
supposed to have had).
School districts are also complicated in Texas...they have only tangential
relationship to cities. It's not uncommon for them to have the same name as
the largest city in the district (or sometimes the county they mostly serve)
but not necessarily...the one we're in is named after a local resident who
was a strong proponent of education and covers a bunch of small towns and
unincorporated areas. There's also no official relationship between cities
and districts. Our town is only 8000 people but you can be in one of four
different school districts depending on exactly where in town you live.
Districts also vary wildly in size...our district has about 4000 students,
the neighboring district closer to 22,000 (and both have a single high
school). Dallas has over 150,000.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 19:55:31 -0000 (UTC), rkshullat@rosettacondot.com
> wrote:
>
>>I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>>officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the district my
>>son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they rely
>>on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to provide
>>security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>
> I dunno - in my municipality if the cops refused to attending a
> shooting incident at a local high school, the city council would be
> looking for new cops in near record time.....

Not so much a matter of "attending"...I gather pretty much everyone they
could get hold of showed up. It appears that they were all looking for the
school district chief to take lead and, for whatever reason, he didn't.
They apparently prevented at least one city officer from going in on his own.
Someone (apparently the Border Patrol) finally decided on the "forgiveness
instead of permission" plan and went in.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On 11 Jun 2022, Charles Packer wrote
(in article <zn5pK.52720$IgSc.51552@fx45.iad>):

> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > link to full article:
> >
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>
> Incidentally, with the Uvalde incident
> the well-known phrase "gun culture" has come home, sort of, after
> 59 years. In November 1963 within four days after
> JFK's assassination the phrase was first used, by Dan Rather,
> in radio talks about Texas. Rather was at CBS station KRLD Dallas
> and on the day of the assassination had been working on an
> interview of John Nance Garner recorded in Uvalde. Garner, who had
> been FDR's vice president, was from Uvalde and the
> interview was associated with his 95th birthday, which was
> on the 22nd.

Ah, yes. One of FDR’s VPs. He was sufficiently ignored by the powers that
be in Washington that he left and went home and it was _months_ before anyone
important noticed that he’d gone. The source of my fav quote about being
VP, which was bowdlerized to ’spit’ from the original ‘piss’.

FDR continued to ignore VPs, including Truman.

On 6/12/2022 6:01 AM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 6/11/2022 8:51 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>> On 6/11/2022 7:31 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 6/11/2022 12:55 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>>>>>>>> who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>>>>>>>> initiative.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored
>>>>>>>> orders
>>>>>>>> not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>>>>>>>> girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>>>>>>>> two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
>>>>>>>>                                              .
>>>>>>>> .           .
>>>>>>>> In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>>>>>>>> enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>>>>>>>> were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>>>>>>>> unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team?s response.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ?No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,?
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> person said. ?It was chaos.?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>>>>>>>> by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had
>>>>>>>> arrived ready
>>>>>>>> to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One of the members ? equipped with an earpiece and small microphone ?
>>>>>>>> quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to
>>>>>>>> go into
>>>>>>>> the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>>>>>>>> breach the doors.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They ignored the directive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>>>>>>>> person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet
>>>>>>>> striking him
>>>>>>>> in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the
>>>>>>>> Border
>>>>>>>> Patrol agents.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> link to full article:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement
>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>> in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and
>>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it's better stated that the guy who was supposed to be in
>>>>>> charge
>>>>>> didn't realize it. Which, since he was the head of the school
>>>>>> district's
>>>>>> police force and everyone else was in his jurisdiction, meant nobody
>>>>>> was in charge.
>>>>>> I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>>>>>> officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the
>>>>>> district my
>>>>>> son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they
>>>>>> rely
>>>>>> on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to
>>>>>> provide
>>>>>> security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Texas.  :D
>>>>
>>>> What's the usual solution for a small town with low population density
>>>> and
>>>> no real crime problems? It's more than doubled in size since we moved in,
>>>> but we're still only at around 8000 population and a density of 500/sq
>>>> mi.
>>>> Fire-rescue currently costs about $3.5 million/year (over half the city
>>>> budget). A police department would likely cost a lot more. That money
>>>> would
>>>> have to be extracted from the than 3000 households...figure at least
>>>> $1500 per household per year. With sales taxes pretty much maxed out (and
>>>> only two retailers in town) that means doubling property taxes.
>>>> One thing that living in a small town has taught me is that money
>>>> spent by
>>>> the government really is extracted from individuals...literally in some
>>>> cases. When they incorporated the neighborhood that our house is in
>>>> the city
>>>> upgraded the neighborhood roads to the point they could get their fire
>>>> trucks
>>>> in and out. This was before our time, but the lien they put on each
>>>> property
>>>> is still in the records...something like $700/house with the lien being
>>>> released once the bill was paid.
>>>>
>>> The usual way of handling that is let the county sheriff's office be the
>>> town's police force as part of their handling all the rest of the county
>>> that doesn't have a dedicated force.  In most states the sheriffs are
>>> senior to the town/city police forces anyways.
>>>
>> A few more thoughts. Why does a school district of _grade schools_ need
>> a police force in the first place? And if the area can't support a
>> police force for the whole town, how is it paying for one for just the
>> school(s)? And how are the laws in Texas written so that a school
>> district police force somehow is more senior than the local city police
>> force, the county sheriff, the Texas Rangers and a Federal Law
>> Enforcement Agency?
>
> Jurisdiction and responsibilities. If there's a city or school police force
> they should understand the environment and situation better than a random
> responder from somewhere else. The county sheriff's office isn't funded or
> staffed to be the primary law enforcement for a city of any size. The Texas
> Department of Public Safety (the Rangers are a small division of that) is
> more a state bureau of investigation than a state police force. The closest
> thing to that would be the Highway Patrol in the DPS, but they've got roughly
> 1 trooper per 100 sq miles (and about 1 Ranger per 1500 sq miles).
> Likewise the county sheriffs...they have the general responsibility of
> law enforcement in their counties but they also operate the county jail,
> provide court security, serve warrants, etc. If they show up at a school
> it might be the first time they've ever been there, unless they happen to
> have kids attending. They also might not have had the training that school
> district officers, or city officers assigned to a school, have had (or are
> supposed to have had).

In the latest Texas incident it appears the local officers didn't have
_any_ training for this kind of situation while a unit of the Border
Patrol who's whole purpose is to deal with this kind of situation had to
wait for the locals to get their thumbs out of their posteriors. Just
because a higher agency takes charge doesn't mean they don't get briefed
by the relieved personnel on the situation and any special conditions.
And in general each step "up" in that kind of chain is to a larger
agency with a bigger budget to support the specialized training for that
kind of situation. Otherwise why would they be called in?

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 6/12/2022 6:01 AM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>> On 6/11/2022 8:51 PM, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
>>>> On 6/11/2022 7:31 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 6/11/2022 12:55 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 15:53:48 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> According to an article in the _New York Times_, the officers
>>>>>>>>> who entered the classrooms and killed the gunman did so on their own
>>>>>>>>> initiative.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "A tactical team led by Border Patrol officers ultimately ignored
>>>>>>>>> orders
>>>>>>>>> not to breach the classroom, interviews revealed, after a 10-year-old
>>>>>>>>> girl inside the classroom warned 911 dispatchers that one of the
>>>>>>>>> two teachers in the room was in urgent need of medical attention."
>>>>>>>>>                                              .
>>>>>>>>> .           .
>>>>>>>>> In the hallway outside the classrooms, a throng of heavily armed law
>>>>>>>>> enforcement officers anxiously awaited instructions. But frustrations
>>>>>>>>> were growing, particularly among members of a Border Patrol tactical
>>>>>>>>> unit, according to the person who was briefed on the team?s response.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ?No one entity or individual seemed to have control of the scene,?
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> person said. ?It was chaos.?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The sense of frustration among tactical team members was corroborated
>>>>>>>>> by two officials familiar with their debriefing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After more than an hour, the ad hoc group of officers who had
>>>>>>>>> arrived ready
>>>>>>>>> to attack the gunman was growing impatient, and decided to move in.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One of the members ? equipped with an earpiece and small microphone ?
>>>>>>>>> quietly announced over the radio that the group was preparing to
>>>>>>>>> go into
>>>>>>>>> the classrooms. At that point a voice responded, telling them not to
>>>>>>>>> breach the doors.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They ignored the directive.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As the agents entered, the gunman appeared to be ready for them, the
>>>>>>>>> person said. He fired. They fired back, with at least one bullet
>>>>>>>>> striking him
>>>>>>>>> in the head. A bullet fragment also grazed the head of one of the
>>>>>>>>> Border
>>>>>>>>> Patrol agents.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> link to full article:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/03/us/uvalde-police-response.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are two ongoing investigations into the law enforcement
>>>>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>> in Uvalde, which was inconsistent with standard doctrine and
>>>>>>>>> training.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And the guy /thought/ to have been in charge is now saying that he was
>>>>>>>> not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think it's better stated that the guy who was supposed to be in
>>>>>>> charge
>>>>>>> didn't realize it. Which, since he was the head of the school
>>>>>>> district's
>>>>>>> police force and everyone else was in his jurisdiction, meant nobody
>>>>>>> was in charge.
>>>>>>> I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>>>>>>> officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the
>>>>>>> district my
>>>>>>> son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they
>>>>>>> rely
>>>>>>> on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to
>>>>>>> provide
>>>>>>> security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Texas.  :D
>>>>>
>>>>> What's the usual solution for a small town with low population density
>>>>> and
>>>>> no real crime problems? It's more than doubled in size since we moved in,
>>>>> but we're still only at around 8000 population and a density of 500/sq
>>>>> mi.
>>>>> Fire-rescue currently costs about $3.5 million/year (over half the city
>>>>> budget). A police department would likely cost a lot more. That money
>>>>> would
>>>>> have to be extracted from the than 3000 households...figure at least
>>>>> $1500 per household per year. With sales taxes pretty much maxed out (and
>>>>> only two retailers in town) that means doubling property taxes.
>>>>> One thing that living in a small town has taught me is that money
>>>>> spent by
>>>>> the government really is extracted from individuals...literally in some
>>>>> cases. When they incorporated the neighborhood that our house is in
>>>>> the city
>>>>> upgraded the neighborhood roads to the point they could get their fire
>>>>> trucks
>>>>> in and out. This was before our time, but the lien they put on each
>>>>> property
>>>>> is still in the records...something like $700/house with the lien being
>>>>> released once the bill was paid.
>>>>>
>>>> The usual way of handling that is let the county sheriff's office be the
>>>> town's police force as part of their handling all the rest of the county
>>>> that doesn't have a dedicated force.  In most states the sheriffs are
>>>> senior to the town/city police forces anyways.
>>>>
>>> A few more thoughts. Why does a school district of _grade schools_ need
>>> a police force in the first place? And if the area can't support a
>>> police force for the whole town, how is it paying for one for just the
>>> school(s)? And how are the laws in Texas written so that a school
>>> district police force somehow is more senior than the local city police
>>> force, the county sheriff, the Texas Rangers and a Federal Law
>>> Enforcement Agency?
>>
>> Jurisdiction and responsibilities. If there's a city or school police force
>> they should understand the environment and situation better than a random
>> responder from somewhere else. The county sheriff's office isn't funded or
>> staffed to be the primary law enforcement for a city of any size. The Texas
>> Department of Public Safety (the Rangers are a small division of that) is
>> more a state bureau of investigation than a state police force. The closest
>> thing to that would be the Highway Patrol in the DPS, but they've got roughly
>> 1 trooper per 100 sq miles (and about 1 Ranger per 1500 sq miles).
>> Likewise the county sheriffs...they have the general responsibility of
>> law enforcement in their counties but they also operate the county jail,
>> provide court security, serve warrants, etc. If they show up at a school
>> it might be the first time they've ever been there, unless they happen to
>> have kids attending. They also might not have had the training that school
>> district officers, or city officers assigned to a school, have had (or are
>> supposed to have had).
>
> In the latest Texas incident it appears the local officers didn't have
> _any_ training for this kind of situation while a unit of the Border
> Patrol who's whole purpose is to deal with this kind of situation had to
> wait for the locals to get their thumbs out of their posteriors. Just
> because a higher agency takes charge doesn't mean they don't get briefed
> by the relieved personnel on the situation and any special conditions.
> And in general each step "up" in that kind of chain is to a larger
> agency with a bigger budget to support the specialized training for that
> kind of situation. Otherwise why would they be called in?

On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 13:08:07 -0000 (UTC), rkshullat@rosettacondot.com
wrote:

>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 19:55:31 -0000 (UTC), rkshullat@rosettacondot.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>>>officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the district my
>>>son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they rely
>>>on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to provide
>>>security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>>
>> I dunno - in my municipality if the cops refused to attending a
>> shooting incident at a local high school, the city council would be
>> looking for new cops in near record time.....
>
>Not so much a matter of "attending"...I gather pretty much everyone they
>could get hold of showed up. It appears that they were all looking for the
>school district chief to take lead and, for whatever reason, he didn't.
>They apparently prevented at least one city officer from going in on his own.
>Someone (apparently the Border Patrol) finally decided on the "forgiveness
>instead of permission" plan and went in.

Perhaps this is regional language but in my area when police 'attend'
an incident they are expected to do a LOT more than merely stand at
the curb.

(Of course I >DO< have a photo of 6 concerned looking parents - one of
which was my brother - standing next to a police officer who was
apparently doing 'crowd control' next to the main steps leading to the
school. Some kid apparently went off his meds and brought a large
knife to school and was making threats...but that's the only picture
I've seen of a local police office 'attending' - the other cops
'attending' were inside disarming the kid and calling for an ambulance
to take him to the hospital which has a psych unit)

On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:04:44 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>That still doesn't explain to me why grade schools "need" their own
>independent police force rather than the individual schools being
>covered by the LEO handling their location.
>
That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
the police station and is in a school district made up of two
municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
elementary schools

It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
years it's a bad year.

On 6/12/2022 10:50 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:04:44 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> That still doesn't explain to me why grade schools "need" their own
>> independent police force rather than the individual schools being
>> covered by the LEO handling their location.
>>
> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
> elementary schools
>
> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
> years it's a bad year.

Personally I think its part of "the Texas Culture" where it is right and
proper for men to carry guns, women to carry guns and the sheep carry
guns so everyone else is scared. Having an overabundance of overlapping
LEOs is just part of the mindset and an excuse for more guns. And I say
that as someone who was given his rifle at 16 by his national level
competition sharpshooter grandfather who had modified it for me.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> On 6/12/2022 10:50 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:04:44 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> That still doesn't explain to me why grade schools "need" their own
>>> independent police force rather than the individual schools being
>>> covered by the LEO handling their location.
>>>
>> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
>> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
>> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
>> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
>> elementary schools
>>
>> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
>> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
>> years it's a bad year.
>
> Personally I think its part of "the Texas Culture" where it is right and
> proper for men to carry guns, women to carry guns and the sheep carry
> guns so everyone else is scared. Having an overabundance of overlapping
> LEOs is just part of the mindset and an excuse for more guns. And I say
> that as someone who was given his rifle at 16 by his national level
> competition sharpshooter grandfather who had modified it for me.

I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas city
above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home rule...make
their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state consitution or
general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter and pass
their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own courts, jails,
etc.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On 6/12/2022 2:03 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 6/12/2022 10:50 AM, The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:04:44 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> That still doesn't explain to me why grade schools "need" their own
>>>> independent police force rather than the individual schools being
>>>> covered by the LEO handling their location.
>>>>
>>> That was my point as well - in the "kid with a knife" situation I
>>> described the particular school was located at most 6-8 blocks from
>>> the police station and is in a school district made up of two
>>> municipalities total pop about 145k with 6 high schools and 25
>>> elementary schools
>>>
>>> It's a suburb of a city of 2 1/2 million so not huge but not all that
>>> small either. If they have to call the cops more than once every 2-3
>>> years it's a bad year.
>>
>> Personally I think its part of "the Texas Culture" where it is right and
>> proper for men to carry guns, women to carry guns and the sheep carry
>> guns so everyone else is scared. Having an overabundance of overlapping
>> LEOs is just part of the mindset and an excuse for more guns. And I say
>> that as someone who was given his rifle at 16 by his national level
>> competition sharpshooter grandfather who had modified it for me.
>
> I think it has more to do with the love of local control. Any Texas city
> above 5000 population can adopt a city charter and adopt home rule...make
> their own laws as long as they don't conflict with the state consitution or
> general law. Even school districts could, in theory, adopt a charter and pass
> their own laws. Cities, even small cities, can have their own courts, jails,
> etc.
>
I can't even imagine the nightmare of multiple, competing courts.
That's not just begging for a disaster, that's actively going out and
courting multiple disasters.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 10:40:57 -0700, The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca>
wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 13:08:07 -0000 (UTC), rkshullat@rosettacondot.com
>wrote:
>
>>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 19:55:31 -0000 (UTC), rkshullat@rosettacondot.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'm surprised they HAVE a district police force, even if it is only six
>>>>officers. UCISD has about the same number of students as the district my
>>>>son graduated from and other than a coordinator at each school they rely
>>>>on (and presumbably pay) a couple of the local cities' forces to provide
>>>>security. Our town has the same arrangement with the county sheriff.
>>>
>>> I dunno - in my municipality if the cops refused to attending a
>>> shooting incident at a local high school, the city council would be
>>> looking for new cops in near record time.....
>>
>>Not so much a matter of "attending"...I gather pretty much everyone they
>>could get hold of showed up. It appears that they were all looking for the
>>school district chief to take lead and, for whatever reason, he didn't.
>>They apparently prevented at least one city officer from going in on his own.
>>Someone (apparently the Border Patrol) finally decided on the "forgiveness
>>instead of permission" plan and went in.
>
>Perhaps this is regional language but in my area when police 'attend'
>an incident they are expected to do a LOT more than merely stand at
>the curb.
>
>(Of course I >DO< have a photo of 6 concerned looking parents - one of
>which was my brother - standing next to a police officer who was
>apparently doing 'crowd control' next to the main steps leading to the
>school. Some kid apparently went off his meds and brought a large
>knife to school and was making threats...but that's the only picture
>I've seen of a local police office 'attending' - the other cops
>'attending' were inside disarming the kid and calling for an ambulance
>to take him to the hospital which has a psych unit)

The first thing members of any military or paramilitary organization
are supposed to do is obey orders. Nobody was giving any. So finally
someone got fed up and "displayed initiative".

On Sun, 12 Jun 2022 09:28:10 -0400, Wolffan wrote:

>
> FDR continued to ignore VPs, including Truman.

Which is consistent with the Constitution...

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 12:50:30 PM UTC-6, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

> Personally I think its part of "the Texas Culture" where it is right and
> proper for men to carry guns, women to carry guns and the sheep carry
> guns so everyone else is scared.

Given that cow-tipping is (was?) legal in Texas, I'm surprised they'd
let the sheep carry guns.

John Savard

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:

> The first thing members of any military or paramilitary organization
> are supposed to do is obey orders. Nobody was giving any. So finally
> someone got fed up and "displayed initiative".

The _first_ thing a military organization is supposed to do is win the
damned war! And if the ranking officer on the scene fails to give
proper orders to that end, that lack of initiative can be a court-martial
offence.

I mean, if you aren't hearing any orders, and there is no one present
who outranks you for whose orders you should wait... there are, after
all, *standing orders* to be obeyed.

So, while your statement does indeed truthfully explain what happened,
it does not, of course, excuse it.

John Savard

On Mon, 13 Jun 2022 00:50:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 7:22:06 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The first thing members of any military or paramilitary organization
>> are supposed to do is obey orders. Nobody was giving any. So finally
>> someone got fed up and "displayed initiative".
>
>The _first_ thing a military organization is supposed to do is win the
>damned war! And if the ranking officer on the scene fails to give
>proper orders to that end, that lack of initiative can be a court-martial
>offence.

You have clearly never served if you think that any yahoo is allowed
to start blazing away.

>I mean, if you aren't hearing any orders, and there is no one present
>who outranks you for whose orders you should wait... there are, after
>all, *standing orders* to be obeyed.

So show us the "standing orders" for this situation.

>So, while your statement does indeed truthfully explain what happened,
>it does not, of course, excuse it.

Nobody is attempting to "excuse it", but you, as usual when talking
about anything other than antique computers, have no clue what the
actual problem was.