On 30 Sep 2022, Scott Lurndal wrote
(in article <nHDZK.110059$tRy7.46283@fx36.iad>):

> "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"<peterwezeman@hotmail.com> writes:
> > On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 7:06:25 AM UTC-5, Wolffan wrote:
>
> > > president that the US has had to date. Given the competition, that=E2=80=
> > =99s quite=20
> > > a feat. Seriously, Wilson made Churchill look like a standard-bearer for=
> > =20
> > > racial equality, something quite difficult to achieve.
> >
> > Did Robert Heinlein ever express any opinion, favorable or unfavorable,
> > about Woodrow Wilson? Lazarus Long, one of the protagonists of his
> > _Future History_ series, was born in 1912 and his original given name
> > was Woodrow Wilson Smith, named after the then president elect. Long's
> > mother Maureen was consistently shown as a decent and liberal person.
>
> Growing up in early 20th century Kansas City Misery would have inculcated
> racism into RAH at an early age. It's not clear how much of that remained
> into his later years.

I suspect that naval service knocked a lot of that out of him. Enough that he
made the hero of Starship Trooper a native Tagalog speaker, and had the hero
of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress arrested. Quote:

“Stu admitted later that range of color in Davis family was what got judge
angry enough to be foolish even beyond native talent for nonsense.”

Excerpt From: Robert A. Heinlein. “The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress.” Apple
Books.

And the varous officers in Space Cadet, including the exceedingly black one
and the Japanese one, also come to mind. Hell, he went out of his way to note
that some cadets wore turbans, and, from the description, at least one was a
Sikh.

Other examples available.

Sixth Column was John Cambell’s fault.

On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 8:47:57 AM UTC-6, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <a0e70cdf-f159-4289...@googlegroups.com>,
> Jack Bohn <jack....@gmail.com> wrote:

> >Has anyone ever pinpointed the optimum time to kill Hitler?

> Turns out nailing him in his bunker in 1945 is surprisingly doable.
> The trick is to make it look like suicide.

That's not optimum, because it fails to fulfill the goal: prevent the
Holocaust and World War II.
In World War I, he came close to death, and survived only because someone
saved his life, so preventing that from happening is certainly one attractive
opportunity.

Here's an item about that, and other instances:
https://militaryhistorynow.com/2017/05/11/lucky-bastard-seven-times-hitler-narrowly-escaped-death/

John Savard

On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 9:12:23 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Growing up in early 20th century Kansas City Misery would have inculcated
> racism into RAH at an early age. It's not clear how much of that remained
> into his later years.

Well, we do have evidence that Heinlein had non-white protagonists cleverly
concealed in some of his works, such as A Farmer in the Sky; that would
seem to indicate an opposition to racism.
One can be opposed to political correctness without being an evil racist.

John Savard

On 30/09/2022 13.47, Default User wrote:
> James Nicoll wrote:
>
>> Destinies, April-June 1979 (Destinies, # 3) edited by Jim Baen
>>
>> Another tour of an issue of Destinies, a short-lived but fondly
>> remembered Disco Era SF magazine.
>
> Here's an old thread about Van Gogh in Space:
>
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/cDvjsmFO0EY/m/FiQOQB-2CScJ>

Thanks for posting that. A few giggles, and a few faces
that aren't here any more.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7

In article <191f6eb7-efff-4dd1-9e4e-40f12a90e3c0n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 9:12:23 AM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> Growing up in early 20th century Kansas City Misery would have inculcated
>> racism into RAH at an early age. It's not clear how much of that remained
>> into his later years.
>
>Well, we do have evidence that Heinlein had non-white protagonists cleverly
>concealed in some of his works, such as A Farmer in the Sky; that would
>seem to indicate an opposition to racism.
>One can be opposed to political correctness without being an evil racist.

(Hal Heydt)
_Starship Troopers_. If you read carefully, the protagonist is a
Filipino. I have long taken this as a critique, by Heinlein, of
the pre-WW2 practice of the US Navy using Filipino members solely
as stewards and in favor of using people to do whatever their
talents and inclination suit them for.

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 15:31:08 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
wrote:

>On 30 Sep 2022, Scott Lurndal wrote
>(in article <nHDZK.110059$tRy7.46283@fx36.iad>):
>
>> "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"<peterwezeman@hotmail.com> writes:
>> > On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 7:06:25 AM UTC-5, Wolffan wrote:
>>
>> > > president that the US has had to date. Given the competition, that=E2=80=
>> > =99s quite=20
>> > > a feat. Seriously, Wilson made Churchill look like a standard-bearer for=
>> > =20
>> > > racial equality, something quite difficult to achieve.
>> >
>> > Did Robert Heinlein ever express any opinion, favorable or unfavorable,
>> > about Woodrow Wilson? Lazarus Long, one of the protagonists of his
>> > _Future History_ series, was born in 1912 and his original given name
>> > was Woodrow Wilson Smith, named after the then president elect. Long's
>> > mother Maureen was consistently shown as a decent and liberal person.
>>
>> Growing up in early 20th century Kansas City Misery would have inculcated
>> racism into RAH at an early age. It's not clear how much of that remained
>> into his later years.
>
>I suspect that naval service knocked a lot of that out of him. Enough that he
>made the hero of Starship Trooper a native Tagalog speaker, and had the hero
>of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress arrested. Quote:

The the Armed Forces of the USA were segregated by race (well,
white/nonwhite anyway) until 1948, 3 years after WWII, that's not very
likely.

But, clearly, given your examples, /something/ did. Or it just didn't
take in the first place.

>“Stu admitted later that range of color in Davis family was what got judge
>angry enough to be foolish even beyond native talent for nonsense.”
>
>Excerpt From: Robert A. Heinlein. “The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress.” Apple
>Books.
>
>And the varous officers in Space Cadet, including the exceedingly black one
>and the Japanese one, also come to mind. Hell, he went out of his way to note
>that some cadets wore turbans, and, from the description, at least one was a
>Sikh.
>
>Other examples available.
>
>Sixth Column was John Cambell’s fault.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 10/1/2022 9:27 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 15:31:08 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 30 Sep 2022, Scott Lurndal wrote
>> (in article <nHDZK.110059$tRy7.46283@fx36.iad>):
>>
>>> "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"<peterwezeman@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>> On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 7:06:25 AM UTC-5, Wolffan wrote:
>>>
>>>>> president that the US has had to date. Given the competition, that=E2=80=
>>>> =99s quite=20
>>>>> a feat. Seriously, Wilson made Churchill look like a standard-bearer for=
>>>> =20
>>>>> racial equality, something quite difficult to achieve.
>>>>
>>>> Did Robert Heinlein ever express any opinion, favorable or unfavorable,
>>>> about Woodrow Wilson? Lazarus Long, one of the protagonists of his
>>>> _Future History_ series, was born in 1912 and his original given name
>>>> was Woodrow Wilson Smith, named after the then president elect. Long's
>>>> mother Maureen was consistently shown as a decent and liberal person.
>>>
>>> Growing up in early 20th century Kansas City Misery would have inculcated
>>> racism into RAH at an early age. It's not clear how much of that remained
>>> into his later years.
>>
>> I suspect that naval service knocked a lot of that out of him. Enough that he
>> made the hero of Starship Trooper a native Tagalog speaker, and had the hero
>> of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress arrested. Quote:
>
> The the Armed Forces of the USA were segregated by race (well,
> white/nonwhite anyway) until 1948, 3 years after WWII, that's not very
> likely.
>
> But, clearly, given your examples, /something/ did. Or it just didn't
> take in the first place.
>
In the US Navy the segregation took the form of only allowing blacks to
be cooks and such. Or are you unaware that one of the first American
"Heroes" in WW2 was a black cook on board a ship at Pearl Harbor who
took over an unmanned machine gun and shot down a Japanese aircraft?

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <th9qvk$1chnq$1@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 10/1/2022 9:27 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 15:31:08 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 30 Sep 2022, Scott Lurndal wrote
>>> (in article <nHDZK.110059$tRy7.46283@fx36.iad>):
>>>
>>>> "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"<peterwezeman@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 7:06:25 AM UTC-5, Wolffan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> president that the US has had to date. Given the
>competition, that=E2=80=
>>>>> =99s quite=20
>>>>>> a feat. Seriously, Wilson made Churchill look like a
>standard-bearer for=
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> racial equality, something quite difficult to achieve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did Robert Heinlein ever express any opinion, favorable or
>unfavorable,
>>>>> about Woodrow Wilson? Lazarus Long, one of the protagonists of his
>>>>> _Future History_ series, was born in 1912 and his original
>given name
>>>>> was Woodrow Wilson Smith, named after the then president
>elect. Long's
>>>>> mother Maureen was consistently shown as a decent and
>liberal person.
>>>>
>>>> Growing up in early 20th century Kansas City Misery would
>have inculcated
>>>> racism into RAH at an early age. It's not clear how much of
>that remained
>>>> into his later years.
>>>
>>> I suspect that naval service knocked a lot of that out of him.
>Enough that he
>>> made the hero of Starship Trooper a native Tagalog speaker,
>and had the hero
>>> of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress arrested. Quote:
>>
>> The the Armed Forces of the USA were segregated by race (well,
>> white/nonwhite anyway) until 1948, 3 years after WWII, that's not very
>> likely.
>>
>> But, clearly, given your examples, /something/ did. Or it just didn't
>> take in the first place.
>>
>In the US Navy the segregation took the form of only allowing blacks to
>be cooks and such. Or are you unaware that one of the first American
>"Heroes" in WW2 was a black cook on board a ship at Pearl Harbor who
>took over an unmanned machine gun and shot down a Japanese aircraft?

Doris "Dorrie" Miller, who died a couple of years later when
the escort carrier Liscome Bay was sunk. He was portrayed by
Elven Havard in Tora! Tora! Tora!

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

On Saturday, October 1, 2022 at 10:47:53 AM UTC-6, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> Or are you unaware that one of the first American
> "Heroes" in WW2 was a black cook on board a ship at Pearl Harbor who
> took over an unmanned machine gun and shot down a Japanese aircraft?

Why the quote marks?

John Savard

On 10/1/2022 10:20 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <th9qvk$1chnq$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> On 10/1/2022 9:27 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 15:31:08 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 30 Sep 2022, Scott Lurndal wrote
>>>> (in article <nHDZK.110059$tRy7.46283@fx36.iad>):
>>>>
>>>>> "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"<peterwezeman@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 7:06:25 AM UTC-5, Wolffan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> president that the US has had to date. Given the
>> competition, that=E2=80=
>>>>>> =99s quite=20
>>>>>>> a feat. Seriously, Wilson made Churchill look like a
>> standard-bearer for=
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>> racial equality, something quite difficult to achieve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did Robert Heinlein ever express any opinion, favorable or
>> unfavorable,
>>>>>> about Woodrow Wilson? Lazarus Long, one of the protagonists of his
>>>>>> _Future History_ series, was born in 1912 and his original
>> given name
>>>>>> was Woodrow Wilson Smith, named after the then president
>> elect. Long's
>>>>>> mother Maureen was consistently shown as a decent and
>> liberal person.
>>>>>
>>>>> Growing up in early 20th century Kansas City Misery would
>> have inculcated
>>>>> racism into RAH at an early age. It's not clear how much of
>> that remained
>>>>> into his later years.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect that naval service knocked a lot of that out of him.
>> Enough that he
>>>> made the hero of Starship Trooper a native Tagalog speaker,
>> and had the hero
>>>> of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress arrested. Quote:
>>>
>>> The the Armed Forces of the USA were segregated by race (well,
>>> white/nonwhite anyway) until 1948, 3 years after WWII, that's not very
>>> likely.
>>>
>>> But, clearly, given your examples, /something/ did. Or it just didn't
>>> take in the first place.
>>>
>> In the US Navy the segregation took the form of only allowing blacks to
>> be cooks and such. Or are you unaware that one of the first American
>> "Heroes" in WW2 was a black cook on board a ship at Pearl Harbor who
>> took over an unmanned machine gun and shot down a Japanese aircraft?
>
> Doris "Dorrie" Miller, who died a couple of years later when
> the escort carrier Liscome Bay was sunk. He was portrayed by
> Elven Havard in Tora! Tora! Tora!
>
Thank you.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 01 Oct 2022, James Nicoll wrote
(in article <th9ss7$pl6$1@reader2.panix.com>):

> In article<th9qvk$1chnq$1@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
> > On 10/1/2022 9:27 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> > > On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 15:31:08 -0400, Wolffan<akwolffan@zoho.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 30 Sep 2022, Scott Lurndal wrote
> > > > (in article <nHDZK.110059$tRy7.46283@fx36.iad>):
> > > >
> > > > > "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"<peterwezeman@hotmail.com> writes:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 7:06:25 AM UTC-5, Wolffan wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > president that the US has had to date. Given the
> > competition, that=E2=80=
> > > > > > =99s quite=20
> > > > > > > a feat. Seriously, Wilson made Churchill look like a
> > standard-bearer for=
> > > > > > =20
> > > > > > > racial equality, something quite difficult to achieve.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did Robert Heinlein ever express any opinion, favorable or
> > unfavorable,
> > > > > > about Woodrow Wilson? Lazarus Long, one of the protagonists of his
> > > > > > _Future History_ series, was born in 1912 and his original
> > given name
> > > > > > was Woodrow Wilson Smith, named after the then president
> > elect. Long's
> > > > > > mother Maureen was consistently shown as a decent and
> > liberal person.
> > > > >
> > > > > Growing up in early 20th century Kansas City Misery would
> > have inculcated
> > > > > racism into RAH at an early age. It's not clear how much of
> > that remained
> > > > > into his later years.
> > > >
> > > > I suspect that naval service knocked a lot of that out of him.
> > Enough that he
> > > > made the hero of Starship Trooper a native Tagalog speaker,
> > and had the hero
> > > > of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress arrested. Quote:
> > >
> > > The the Armed Forces of the USA were segregated by race (well,
> > > white/nonwhite anyway) until 1948, 3 years after WWII, that's not very
> > > likely.
> > >
> > > But, clearly, given your examples, /something/ did. Or it just didn't
> > > take in the first place.
> > In the US Navy the segregation took the form of only allowing blacks to
> > be cooks and such. Or are you unaware that one of the first American
> > "Heroes" in WW2 was a black cook on board a ship at Pearl Harbor who
> > took over an unmanned machine gun and shot down a Japanese aircraft?
>
> Doris "Dorrie" Miller, who died a couple of years later when
> the escort carrier Liscome Bay was sunk. He was portrayed by
> Elven Havard in Tora! Tora! Tora!

Doris Miller was a Cook 3rd Class. His battle station was in the 5”
magazine, passing ammunition to white sailors. He manned an anti-aircraft
gun, an obsolete water-cooled 0.50 calibre, and shot down at least one,
probably two, and possibly three Japanese aircraft. The Kido Butai only lost
29 aircraft that day. He got between 3 and 10% of the total Japanese aircraft
losses. He should have got the Medal of Honor. He was black, and so got the
Navy Cross.

The USN named a frigate for him. A Gerry Ford carrier is slated to be named
for him.

Cuba Gooding Jr. played him in the exceedingly idiotic movie Pearl Harbor.
There’s a scene in the very good movie Midway (the 2019 one, not the 1970s
one, which was almost as bad as Pearl Harbor) showing him getting decorated.
Tora Tora Tora, a far better movie than Pearl Harbor, also showed him in
action. I recommend watching Tora Tora Tora and Midway (2019). I recommend
finding all copies of Pearl Harbor and burning them.

Note that within months the water-cooled 0.50s were gone from most of the US
Pacific Fleet, replaced by 20mm guns. The completely useless 1.1 inch
‘Chicago Piano’ guns were replaced by 40mm guns, but that took longer.
The Japanese, not having had the lesson that the USN had at Pearl, retained
their 25mm guns to the end of the war; a significant part of the reason why
Yamato could not kill significant numbers of American aircraft when Operation
Ten-Go was swarmed by 400+ aircraft in 1945. ObSF, kinda: Yamato getting
hammered is part of the first episode of Space Battleship Yamato, a.k.a Star
Blazers.

On Sat, 1 Oct 2022 09:47:48 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/1/2022 9:27 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 15:31:08 -0400, Wolffan <akwolffan@zoho.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 30 Sep 2022, Scott Lurndal wrote
>>> (in article <nHDZK.110059$tRy7.46283@fx36.iad>):
>>>
>>>> "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"<peterwezeman@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Friday, September 30, 2022 at 7:06:25 AM UTC-5, Wolffan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> president that the US has had to date. Given the competition, that=E2=80=
>>>>> =99s quite=20
>>>>>> a feat. Seriously, Wilson made Churchill look like a standard-bearer for=
>>>>> =20
>>>>>> racial equality, something quite difficult to achieve.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did Robert Heinlein ever express any opinion, favorable or unfavorable,
>>>>> about Woodrow Wilson? Lazarus Long, one of the protagonists of his
>>>>> _Future History_ series, was born in 1912 and his original given name
>>>>> was Woodrow Wilson Smith, named after the then president elect. Long's
>>>>> mother Maureen was consistently shown as a decent and liberal person.
>>>>
>>>> Growing up in early 20th century Kansas City Misery would have inculcated
>>>> racism into RAH at an early age. It's not clear how much of that remained
>>>> into his later years.
>>>
>>> I suspect that naval service knocked a lot of that out of him. Enough that he
>>> made the hero of Starship Trooper a native Tagalog speaker, and had the hero
>>> of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress arrested. Quote:
>>
>> The the Armed Forces of the USA were segregated by race (well,
>> white/nonwhite anyway) until 1948, 3 years after WWII, that's not very
>> likely.
>>
>> But, clearly, given your examples, /something/ did. Or it just didn't
>> take in the first place.
>>
>In the US Navy the segregation took the form of only allowing blacks to
>be cooks and such. Or are you unaware that one of the first American
>"Heroes" in WW2 was a black cook on board a ship at Pearl Harbor who
>took over an unmanned machine gun and shot down a Japanese aircraft?

No.

Although I may have been before /Tora! Tora! Tora!/ appalled the kids,
in class assembled, at it's initial screening on the base I was
stationed at in 1971/72.

Then again, I was reading through something eventually called the
"Ballentine Illustrated History of the Violent Century" (expanding
from the original WW2 to include WW1 and the suffragettes) and, since
Pearl Harbor would clearly be a title to get people hooked on the
series, I may have read it there before the film reached us.

There was also a history by DePuis, which I no longer have, that may
have mentioned it. Acts of heroism in war tend to be remembered no
matter who does them.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 18:08:39 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>>> World War II was made inevitable by the treaty that ended WWI.
>>> Removing Baby Hitler might put a sane Fuehrer into office.
>>>
>>> I'd have to read up on Wilson before forming an opinion.
>>>
>> Without Wilson, the Treaty of Versailles would be different,
>> perhaps even better.
>
>Uh, no. Wilson was the primary advocate of a more equitable peace. The
>punishment provisions towards Germany would have been even worse without
>Wilson.

I think 1945 proved that a tougher peace would have also led to a more
peaceful world since in 1918 there was no Soviet Union (at least with
anywhere near the power of 1945).

Of course two of the big losers in the Versailles peace were Italy and
Japan and in a sense the German naval buildup (bear in mind what
Versailles said about U-boatts) and even more so the Japanese naval
buildup was Washington's insistence Britain renounce its naval treaty
with Japan. Both Italy and Japan were revanchist after WW1 in the
sense they felt they had earned the spoils of war and been denied at
Versailles while Britain and France got all the 'goodies'. Not my view
but Mussolini among others made that point extremely strongly.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 22:13:02 -0700, Robert Woodward
<robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>Removing Adolf Hitler (doesn't have to be Baby Hitler, he could be
>killed in WWI or be a Spanish Influenza fatality) might not help the
>post-WWI situation in Germany. There were a lot of crazies and several
>nationalist or even nativist parties in Germany. After all, Himmler,
>Goebbels, Rohm and others are still around.

It could even be Hitler never recovering from his blindness.

Remember where Hitler was and what he was doing on 11 Nov 1918.

None of Himmler Goebbels and Rohm understood modern media nor were
half the orator Hitler was.

On Fri, 30 Sep 2022 21:59:42 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>_Starship Troopers_. If you read carefully, the protagonist is a
>Filipino. I have long taken this as a critique, by Heinlein, of
>the pre-WW2 practice of the US Navy using Filipino members solely
>as stewards and in favor of using people to do whatever their
>talents and inclination suit them for.

And this ISN'T just rhetoric - on 7 Dec 1941 Manila was the 6th
biggest city owned by Uncle Sam. The Phillipines population was twice
that of California in 1941.

The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 18:08:39 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
><dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>>> World War II was made inevitable by the treaty that ended WWI.
>>>> Removing Baby Hitler might put a sane Fuehrer into office.
>>>>
>>>> I'd have to read up on Wilson before forming an opinion.
>>>>
>>> Without Wilson, the Treaty of Versailles would be different,
>>> perhaps even better.
>>
>>Uh, no. Wilson was the primary advocate of a more equitable peace. The
>>punishment provisions towards Germany would have been even worse without
>>Wilson.
>
>I think 1945 proved that a tougher peace would have also led to a more
>peaceful world since in 1918 there was no Soviet Union (at least with
>anywhere near the power of 1945).

Bolshevik Russia did exist, of course, in 1918. And Russian Imperialism
started several hundred years prior (viz. The fable of the Potemkin Village).

Wilson had been preparing a Peace Plan prior to the German
surrender, and he had a "determination to prevent the utter
destruction of Germany"[1].

By October 20, 1918, Germany acknowledged a readiness to
accept Wilson's surrender terms. Capitulation occurred November 8.

However, there was considerable discord amongst the allies
even before the peace conference started. English and French
elections in 1918 won with vindictiveness as campain slogans,
and at the same time Republicans took control of the senate,
and partisanship ensured that they didn't support Wilson's
terms.

[1] A New History of the United States. William Miller. (c)1958 p. 345

In article <hun%K.317746$9Yp5.179819@fx12.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> writes:
>>On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 18:08:39 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>><dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> World War II was made inevitable by the treaty that ended WWI.
>>>>> Removing Baby Hitler might put a sane Fuehrer into office.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd have to read up on Wilson before forming an opinion.
>>>>>
>>>> Without Wilson, the Treaty of Versailles would be different,
>>>> perhaps even better.
>>>
>>>Uh, no. Wilson was the primary advocate of a more equitable peace. The
>>>punishment provisions towards Germany would have been even worse without
>>>Wilson.
>>
>>I think 1945 proved that a tougher peace would have also led to a more
>>peaceful world since in 1918 there was no Soviet Union (at least with
>>anywhere near the power of 1945).
>
>Bolshevik Russia did exist, of course, in 1918. And Russian Imperialism
>started several hundred years prior (viz. The fable of the Potemkin Village).
>
>Wilson had been preparing a Peace Plan prior to the German
>surrender, and he had a "determination to prevent the utter
>destruction of Germany"[1].
>
>By October 20, 1918, Germany acknowledged a readiness to
>accept Wilson's surrender terms. Capitulation occurred November 8.
>
>However, there was considerable discord amongst the allies
>even before the peace conference started. English and French
>elections in 1918 won with vindictiveness as campain slogans,
>and at the same time Republicans took control of the senate,
>and partisanship ensured that they didn't support Wilson's
>terms.
>
>[1] A New History of the United States. William Miller. (c)1958 p. 345

If Wilson had been either simply an idealist or a caucus
politician, he might have succeeded. His attempt to run the
two in double harness was the cause of his undoing. The
spacious philanthropy which he exhaled upon Europe stopped
quite sharply at the coasts of his own country. There he
was in every main decision a party politician, calculating
and brazen. A tithe of the fine principles and generous
sentiments he lavished upon Europe, applied during 1918 to
his Republican opponents in the United States, would have
made him in truth the leader of a nation. His sense of
proportion operated in separate water-tight compartments.
The differences in Europe between France and Germany seemed
trivial, petty, easy to be adjusted by a little good sense
and charity. But the differences between Democrat and
Republican in the United States! Here were really grave
quarrels. He could not understand why the French should not
be more forgiving to their beaten enemy; nor why the American
Republicans should not expect cold comfort from a Democratic
Administration. His gaze was fixed with equal earnestness
upon the destiny of mankind and the fortunes of his party
candidates. Peace and goodwill among all nations abroad,
but no truck with the Republican Party at home. That was
his ticket and that was his ruin, and the ruin of much else
as well. It is difficult for a man to do great things if
he tries to combine a lambent charity embracing the whole
world with the sharper forms of populist party strife.

-- The World Crisis: The Aftermath
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Michael F. Stemper wrote:

>On 30/09/2022 13.47, Default User wrote:

>>Here's an old thread about Van Gogh in Space:

>Thanks for posting that. A few giggles, and a few faces
>that aren't here any more.

There were a bunch of posts from him in general timeframe, so I picked
one with lots of response because that's more fun.

Brian

On 10/5/2022 2:46 PM, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 18:08:39 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>>>> World War II was made inevitable by the treaty that ended WWI.
>>>> Removing Baby Hitler might put a sane Fuehrer into office.
>>>>
>>>> I'd have to read up on Wilson before forming an opinion.
>>>>
>>> Without Wilson, the Treaty of Versailles would be different,
>>> perhaps even better.
>>
>> Uh, no. Wilson was the primary advocate of a more equitable peace. The
>> punishment provisions towards Germany would have been even worse without
>> Wilson.
>
> I think 1945 proved that a tougher peace would have also led to a more
> peaceful world since in 1918 there was no Soviet Union (at least with
> anywhere near the power of 1945).
>
> Of course two of the big losers in the Versailles peace were Italy and
> Japan and in a sense the German naval buildup (bear in mind what
> Versailles said about U-boatts) and even more so the Japanese naval
> buildup was Washington's insistence Britain renounce its naval treaty
> with Japan. Both Italy and Japan were revanchist after WW1 in the
> sense they felt they had earned the spoils of war and been denied at
> Versailles while Britain and France got all the 'goodies'. Not my view
> but Mussolini among others made that point extremely strongly.

The post WW2 peace treaties were not anywhere near as punitive as
Versailles and they were stronger because the losers got thoroughly
stomped into the ground leaving no doubt they had LOST rather than
feeling "You know, we should have kept fighting." The victors didn't
leave the old governments in power while telling them "give us all your
money and valuables", they installed new governments that were not as
militaristic and then supported them. (Well, the Western Allies did....)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

In article <3rurjh575r35gh44j985dtv9o62c39ugo0@4ax.com>,
The Horny Goat <lcraver@home.ca> wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 22:13:02 -0700, Robert Woodward
> <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>
> >Removing Adolf Hitler (doesn't have to be Baby Hitler, he could be
> >killed in WWI or be a Spanish Influenza fatality) might not help the
> >post-WWI situation in Germany. There were a lot of crazies and several
> >nationalist or even nativist parties in Germany. After all, Himmler,
> >Goebbels, Rohm and others are still around.
>
> It could even be Hitler never recovering from his blindness.
>
> Remember where Hitler was and what he was doing on 11 Nov 1918.
>
> None of Himmler Goebbels and Rohm understood modern media nor were
> half the orator Hitler was.

Are you certain that Goebbels didn't understand modern media? That is
not my impression of his propaganda work.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 5:02:54 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:

> If Wilson had been either simply an idealist or a caucus
> politician, he might have succeeded. His attempt to run the
> two in double harness was the cause of his undoing.

> Peace and goodwill among all nations abroad,
> but no truck with the Republican Party at home. That was
> his ticket and that was his ruin, and the ruin of much else
> as well. It is difficult for a man to do great things if
> he tries to combine a lambent charity embracing the whole
> world with the sharper forms of populist party strife.

That certainly sounds like it makes sense, but I don't know
enough about the Presidency of Woodrow Wilson to have an
opinion on its applicability to him one way or the other.

I read something from Quora about how he was a terrible
dictator as he pushed the United States into a war which had
as its only purpose preserving the wicked capitalist system;
_that_ I found ludicrous.

But I'm not aware of when Woodrow Wilson's undoing happened.

I mean, the World War I peace treaty that he wanted *was* the one
that got signed.

Ah, but perhaps it's because the Republican Herbert Hoover succeeded
him. It's true Hoover failed to make proper efforts to mitigate or end
the Great Depression, which led to Roosevelt unseating him, but I don't
think that a Democratic President in 1929 could have *prevented* the
Great Depression. Let alone World War II - a phrase like "the ruin of much
else" makes me think the author is thinking in such terms.

I mean, there was even the Dawes Plan...

John Savard

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 6:17:09 PM UTC-6, Dimensional Traveler wrote:

> The post WW2 peace treaties were not anywhere near as punitive as
> Versailles

And that, of course, was primarily a direct consequence of the Cold War.

Had Japan and West Germany not been needed...

John Savard

In article <14d0cf03-3b09-4bb1-9c02-b353041f67d3n@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 5:02:54 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
>
> > If Wilson had been either simply an idealist or a caucus
> > politician, he might have succeeded. His attempt to run the
> > two in double harness was the cause of his undoing.
>
> > Peace and goodwill among all nations abroad,
> > but no truck with the Republican Party at home. That was
> > his ticket and that was his ruin, and the ruin of much else
> > as well. It is difficult for a man to do great things if
> > he tries to combine a lambent charity embracing the whole
> > world with the sharper forms of populist party strife.
>
> That certainly sounds like it makes sense, but I don't know
> enough about the Presidency of Woodrow Wilson to have an
> opinion on its applicability to him one way or the other.
>
> I read something from Quora about how he was a terrible
> dictator as he pushed the United States into a war which had
> as its only purpose preserving the wicked capitalist system;
> _that_ I found ludicrous.
>
> But I'm not aware of when Woodrow Wilson's undoing happened.
>
> I mean, the World War I peace treaty that he wanted *was* the one
> that got signed.
>
> Ah, but perhaps it's because the Republican Herbert Hoover succeeded
> him.

Ahem, Warren Harding elected in 1920. Followed by his VP Calvin Coolidge
when Harding died of a heart attack; Coolidge elected in his own right
in 1924. Hoover elected in 1928 just in time for the bill for several
decades of idiocy* to come due.

* IMHO of course, though I could bore everybody with a 1000 word essay
which I am too lazy to write.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 5:49:01 PM UTC-4, The Horny Goat wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2022 22:13:02 -0700, Robert Woodward
> <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>
> >Removing Adolf Hitler (doesn't have to be Baby Hitler, he could be
> >killed in WWI or be a Spanish Influenza fatality) might not help the
> >post-WWI situation in Germany. There were a lot of crazies and several
> >nationalist or even nativist parties in Germany. After all, Himmler,
> >Goebbels, Rohm and others are still around.
> It could even be Hitler never recovering from his blindness.
>
> Remember where Hitler was and what he was doing on 11 Nov 1918.
>
> None of Himmler Goebbels and Rohm understood modern media nor were
> half the orator Hitler was.

If you aren't going to kill him, have the gas damage his lungs so he
can't make those infamous speeches. Kill him a the Putsch or even
in battle and he subs in as a martyr for surviving (by butterfly) pro-
authoritarian (might be called neither fascist nor Nazi) leader Horst
Wessel....????

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310

On Thursday, October 6, 2022 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-6, Robert Woodward wrote:
> In article <14d0cf03-3b09-4bb1...@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

> > Ah, but perhaps it's because the Republican Herbert Hoover succeeded
> > him.

> Ahem, Warren Harding elected in 1920. Followed by his VP Calvin Coolidge
> when Harding died of a heart attack; Coolidge elected in his own right
> in 1924. Hoover elected in 1928 just in time for the bill for several
> decades of idiocy* to come due.

Ah. Well, I _think_ I've heard that the stock market crash of 1929 had its
roots in the excesses of the "Roaring 20s". The stock market was rising,
and that led to a lot of people making very speculative purchases, and then
other persons purchased stock at even higher prices, thinking that the rise
caused by speculation meant an increase in real value.

That much I knew. What I was *not* aware of is that, unlike not only the 2008
crash, but one or two that preceded it, was that the causes included legislation
that unwisely removed regulations intended to prevent crashes - because they
were hindering some people's ability to accumulate wealth. So I had not known
that the U.S. Government (and presumably the Republican Party) were to blame
for the Great Depression.

John Savard