On 18/10/22 10:13, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 17, 2022 at 5:03:25 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
snip
>> In the 60s I used to play with mercury. Finger lickin good!
>
> One of the lost wonders of childhood.
>
> Poke your finger in, and it pushes back unnaturally and sucks the heat
> out of you. Pull it back out and your fingerprint remains on the surface.
>
> Pour a little into your palm, and it is far heavier than any liquid has a right
> to be (13.6x as dense as water). Again, it sucks the heat out your hand,
> and seems to be almost sentient in its efforts to escape your fingers and
> fall down.
>
> This is safe, if done in a fume closet, and you wash your hands afterwards.

At school in physics class we would heat the thermometers with gas burners.
Nowadays I get my mercury from fish. I'm pretty sure Dimwire and
Fourbricks drink it straight from the bottle.

On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 15:52:50 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>><peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>>>exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>>>take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>>>where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>>>that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>>>power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>>>could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>>>fluctuation.
>>
>>And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>
>That is not an accurate characterization:
>
>https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>
>
> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
> in a mercury thermometer."

But was that the understanding 14 years ago when the incident happened
(while our new furnace was being installed)?

>Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>with the advent of LED lighting.

Indeed.

The last time I tried to find CFLs to purchase I found a box of 8 LEDs
for a /very/ reasonable price. Like CFLs, the main advantage to me is
that I can use them in hard-to-reach places and not have to replace
them for a long time. Whether they actually save money is harder to
determine -- made harder by both comparing themselves to incandescent
bulbs, making it unclear how much LEDs are claimed to save compared to
CFLs.

And, since they apparently go into the trash rather than having to be
specially recycled, my slowly-accumulating collection of CFLs (and
2-ft tubes and earlier small fluorescent items replaced by CFLs) will
eventually contain the Last One, and then I can dispose properly of
them all. Something requiring a trip to the transfer station, the last
time I checked.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>>>> fluctuation.
>>>
>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>>
>> That is not an accurate characterization:
>>
>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>>
>>
>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
>> in a mercury thermometer."
>>
>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>> with the advent of LED lighting.
>
>Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
>LEDs....

Indeed.

Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
comes along.

What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 12:28:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> >On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
> >>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> >>> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
> >>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
> >>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
> >>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
> >>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
> >>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
> >>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
> >>>> fluctuation.
> >>>
> >>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
> >>
> >> That is not an accurate characterization:
> >>
> >> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
> >>
> >>
> >> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
> >> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
> >> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
> >> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
> >> in a mercury thermometer."
> >>
> >> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
> >> with the advent of LED lighting.
> >
> >Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
> >LEDs....
> Indeed.
>
> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
> comes along.
>
> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.

Better made, longer lasting LEDs.
Dubai bulbs: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/

Pt

On 10/18/2022 9:28 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>
>> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>>>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>>>>> fluctuation.
>>>>
>>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>>>
>>> That is not an accurate characterization:
>>>
>>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>>>
>>>
>>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
>>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
>>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
>>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
>>> in a mercury thermometer."
>>>
>>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>>> with the advent of LED lighting.
>>
>> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
>> LEDs....
>
> Indeed.
>
> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
> comes along.
>
> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.

Which is not the same question as "What will be available to replace
LEDs?" ;) (I can imagine people in 2070 talking about the multiple
generations of new light bulbs that have come out and asking why they
are still using LEDs simply because they haven't burned out yet.)

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On 10/18/2022 11:37 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 12:28:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
>>>>> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>>>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>>>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>>>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>>>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>>>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>>>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>>>>>> fluctuation.
>>>>>
>>>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>>>>
>>>> That is not an accurate characterization:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
>>>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
>>>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
>>>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
>>>> in a mercury thermometer."
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>>>> with the advent of LED lighting.
>>>
>>> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
>>> LEDs....
>> Indeed.
>>
>> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
>> comes along.
>>
>> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
>
> Better made, longer lasting LEDs.
> Dubai bulbs: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/
>
> Pt

I buy these 70 bulb and 90 bulb LED floodlights for my warehouse. I
have bought sixteen of them so far. No failures of a single LED bulb in
over five years from the first one I bought.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DFQ84CM/

Picture of several floodlights that I have replaced.
https://www.winsim.com/ceiling_of_warehouse_2.jpg

Lynn

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 8:06:24 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 10/18/2022 11:37 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 12:28:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> >> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
> >>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> >>>>> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
> >>>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
> >>>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
> >>>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
> >>>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
> >>>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
> >>>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
> >>>>>> fluctuation.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
> >>>>
> >>>> That is not an accurate characterization:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
> >>>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
> >>>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
> >>>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
> >>>> in a mercury thermometer."
> >>>>
> >>>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
> >>>> with the advent of LED lighting.
> >>>
> >>> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
> >>> LEDs....
> >> Indeed.
> >>
> >> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
> >> comes along.
> >>
> >> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
> >
> > Better made, longer lasting LEDs.
> > Dubai bulbs: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/
> >
> > Pt
> I buy these 70 bulb and 90 bulb LED floodlights for my warehouse. I
> have bought sixteen of them so far. No failures of a single LED bulb in
> over five years from the first one I bought.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DFQ84CM/
>
> Picture of several floodlights that I have replaced.
> https://www.winsim.com/ceiling_of_warehouse_2.jpg
>
> Lynn
What is a failure? This seems to be multiple LED units in a single package. Are all of the units still working? I have used consumer grade LED lights for some time - the usually last a a long time, but I have had to replace some.

On 10/18/2022 2:43 PM, Andrew McDowell wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 8:06:24 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/18/2022 11:37 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 12:28:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>>>>>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>>>>>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>>>>>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>>>>>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>>>>>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>>>>>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>>>>>>>> fluctuation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is not an accurate characterization:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
>>>>>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
>>>>>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
>>>>>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
>>>>>> in a mercury thermometer."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>>>>>> with the advent of LED lighting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
>>>>> LEDs....
>>>> Indeed.
>>>>
>>>> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
>>>> comes along.
>>>>
>>>> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
>>>
>>> Better made, longer lasting LEDs.
>>> Dubai bulbs: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/
>>>
>>> Pt
>> I buy these 70 bulb and 90 bulb LED floodlights for my warehouse. I
>> have bought sixteen of them so far. No failures of a single LED bulb in
>> over five years from the first one I bought.
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DFQ84CM/
>>
>> Picture of several floodlights that I have replaced.
>> https://www.winsim.com/ceiling_of_warehouse_2.jpg
>>
>> Lynn
> What is a failure? This seems to be multiple LED units in a single package. Are all of the units still working? I have used consumer grade LED lights for some time - the usually last a a long time, but I have had to replace some.

All of the units are working. Each unit (floodlight) consists of 70 to
90+ LED bulbs. None of the LED bulbs has failed to date that I have seen.

Lynn

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 2:56:55 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 10/18/2022 9:28 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
> > On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
> > <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
> >>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> >>>> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
> >>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
> >>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
> >>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
> >>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
> >>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
> >>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
> >>>>> fluctuation.
> >>>>
> >>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
> >>>
> >>> That is not an accurate characterization:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
> >>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
> >>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
> >>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
> >>> in a mercury thermometer."
> >>>
> >>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
> >>> with the advent of LED lighting.
> >>
> >> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
> >> LEDs....
> >
> > Indeed.
> >
> > Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
> > comes along.
> >
> > What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
> Which is not the same question as "What will be available to replace
> LEDs?" ;) (I can imagine people in 2070 talking about the multiple
> generations of new light bulbs that have come out and asking why they
> are still using LEDs simply because they haven't burned out yet.)

Well, what are the desirable properties?

* High efficiency in turning electrical energy into visible light.
I see constantly that 'LEDs use 85% less energy than incandescents', but the number
the actually seems to matter is lumens/watt: 10 for incandescents, and 37-120 for
LEDs.

* LEDs need DC to run efficiently, and turning AC to DC leads to additional losses:
full wave rectifiers lose almost 20% of input energy. Efficient running on AC might be
desirable.

* Color truth. Incandescents emit black body radiation, and show true colors for
their temperature. LEDs have a much choppier spectrum, and colors may be incorrect.

I'm sure others can think of more.

pt

On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 2:56:55 PM UTC-4, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > On 10/18/2022 9:28 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

> > > What will replace LEDs, I wonder.

> > Which is not the same question as "What will be available to replace
> > LEDs?" ;) (I can imagine people in 2070 talking about the multiple
> > generations of new light bulbs that have come out and asking why they
> > are still using LEDs simply because they haven't burned out yet.)

> Well, what are the desirable properties?
>
> * High efficiency in turning electrical energy into visible light.
> I see constantly that 'LEDs use 85% less energy than incandescents', but the number
> the actually seems to matter is lumens/watt: 10 for incandescents, and 37-120 for
> LEDs.
>
> * LEDs need DC to run efficiently, and turning AC to DC leads to additional losses:
> full wave rectifiers lose almost 20% of input energy. Efficient running on AC might be
> desirable.
>
> * Color truth. Incandescents emit black body radiation, and show true colors for
> their temperature. LEDs have a much choppier spectrum, and colors may be incorrect.
>
> I'm sure others can think of more.

Your reply, and the previous one to which you replied, are well-thought-out.

In my opinion, despite the rapid rate of progress in electronics, I suspect that current
LED bulbs come sufficiently close to the very limits of attaining these properties set by
physics that we may not *live* to see LEDs replaced.

However, for *outdoor* lighting, there _is_ a desirable property that LEDs lack. One that
a predecessor technology, low-pressure sodium lights, posessed. That is, the property
of emitting monospectral light so that it could easily be filtered out by astronomical
observers.

Given that it's possible to make *lasers* out of LEDs - DVD and Compact Disk players
illustrate this - I suspect that this is not an insuperable problem to address. The wavelength
of bright yellow light would be a good choice, because there were complaints about the
appearance of the color of things under low-pressure sodium lights. And if people still aren't
satisfied, light of two or even three spectral lines could be used to give a closer resemblance
to normal lighting.

John Savard

Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Well, what are the desirable properties?
>>
>> * High efficiency in turning electrical energy into visible light.
>> I see constantly that 'LEDs use 85% less energy than incandescents', but the number
>> the actually seems to matter is lumens/watt: 10 for incandescents, and 37-120 for
>> LEDs.
>>
>> * LEDs need DC to run efficiently, and turning AC to DC leads to additional losses:
>> full wave rectifiers lose almost 20% of input energy. Efficient running on AC might be
>> desirable.
>>
>> * Color truth. Incandescents emit black body radiation, and show true colors for
>> their temperature. LEDs have a much choppier spectrum, and colors may be incorrect.
>>
>> I'm sure others can think of more.
>
>Your reply, and the previous one to which you replied, are well-thought-out.
<snip>
>However, for *outdoor* lighting, there _is_ a desirable property that LEDs lack. One that
>a predecessor technology, low-pressure sodium lights, posessed. That is, the property
>of emitting monospectral light so that it could easily be filtered out by astronomical
>observers.

I don't think this is as big a consideration for LED lights as it was for
mercury vapor. LED lighting is very directional, unlike MV or SV; in
San Jose (which for decades had SV lighting for the nearby Lick Observatory)
the city has completely switched to 5k color temp LED street lighting; without
interfering with observations (and significantly less overspill into the homes
along the street) at the Lick Observatory.

Now, billboards on the other hand...

https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/25/south-bay-astronomers-fear-proposed-airport-billboards-would-threaten-night-viewing/

On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 22:07:56 UTC+1, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
> >On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >> Well, what are the desirable properties?
> >>
> >> * High efficiency in turning electrical energy into visible light.
> >> I see constantly that 'LEDs use 85% less energy than incandescents', but the number
> >> the actually seems to matter is lumens/watt: 10 for incandescents, and 37-120 for
> >> LEDs.
> >>
> >> * LEDs need DC to run efficiently, and turning AC to DC leads to additional losses:
> >> full wave rectifiers lose almost 20% of input energy. Efficient running on AC might be
> >> desirable.
> >>
> >> * Color truth. Incandescents emit black body radiation, and show true colors for
> >> their temperature. LEDs have a much choppier spectrum, and colors may be incorrect.
> >>
> >> I'm sure others can think of more.
> >
> >Your reply, and the previous one to which you replied, are well-thought-out.
> <snip>
> >However, for *outdoor* lighting, there _is_ a desirable property that LEDs lack. One that
> >a predecessor technology, low-pressure sodium lights, posessed. That is, the property
> >of emitting monospectral light so that it could easily be filtered out by astronomical
> >observers.
> I don't think this is as big a consideration for LED lights as it was for
> mercury vapor. LED lighting is very directional, unlike MV or SV; in
> San Jose (which for decades had SV lighting for the nearby Lick Observatory)
> the city has completely switched to 5k color temp LED street lighting; without
> interfering with observations (and significantly less overspill into the homes
> along the street) at the Lick Observatory.
>
> Now, billboards on the other hand...
>
> https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/25/south-bay-astronomers-fear-proposed-airport-billboards-would-threaten-night-viewing/

You do need to stop that before we get to -
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Jupiter>

Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 8:06:24 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 10/18/2022 11:37 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 12:28:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> >> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> >>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>> >>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
>> >>>>> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>> >>>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>> >>>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>> >>>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>> >>>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>> >>>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>> >>>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>> >>>>>> fluctuation.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> That is not an accurate characterization:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
>> >>>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
>> >>>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
>> >>>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
>> >>>> in a mercury thermometer."
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>> >>>> with the advent of LED lighting.
>> >>>
>> >>> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
>> >>> LEDs....
>> >> Indeed.
>> >>
>> >> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
>> >> comes along.
>> >>
>> >> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
>> >
>> > Better made, longer lasting LEDs.
>> > Dubai bulbs: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/
>> >
>> > Pt
>> I buy these 70 bulb and 90 bulb LED floodlights for my warehouse. I
>> have bought sixteen of them so far. No failures of a single LED bulb in
>> over five years from the first one I bought.
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DFQ84CM/
>>
>> Picture of several floodlights that I have replaced.
>> https://www.winsim.com/ceiling_of_warehouse_2.jpg
>>
>> Lynn
> What is a failure? This seems to be multiple LED units in a single package. Are all of the units still working? I have used consumer grade LED lights for some time - the usually last a a long time, but I have had to replace some.

The floods Lynn linked to are $137 each. One would hope that comes with at
least a slight increase in quality.
My experience with LED bulbs has been similar to my experience with other
consumer electronics...if they don't die in the first few weeks they'll
usually last for years. The batch of 12 cheap candelabra LEDs that I bought
in August had one DOA and two failures (one dead, one strobing) in the first
two days...none since.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

On Fri, 14 Oct 2022 16:34:05 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>The uranium in the Japanese breeder reactor was 18% enriched. Good
>stuff. Oops.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokaimura_nuclear_accidents#1999_accident
>
Meaning that while it's not 'the last 10 minutes of Doctor
Strangelove" it's still serious business.

On Sat, 15 Oct 2022 03:53:01 GMT, djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

>>W, Pu and U all have densities in the 19-20 range. Lead is only 11. I once
>>picked up a piece of depleted Uranium about the size of a small juice can.
>>[Yes, there was safely equipment involved.] it was far, far heavier than I
>>expected. It's sometimes used in applications like counterweights for
>>airplane flaps, or in sailboat keels.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Ever watch someone (or do it yourself) pick up a bottle of
>Mercury? Same thing. Feels like it's nailed in place.
>
>At least for liquids, ones expectation--and thus the "set" for
>muscles--is that they have a specific gravity of about one. If
>something in a bottle is markedly different, it feels much
>farther off what you expect than it actually is.

The specific gravity of Mercury is roughly 13-14 meaning a little
denser than lead (which is about 12) though far less than Au, the
platinum group metals, W, Pu and U which are all around the 18-22
range. One of the really obscure ones (Osmium - which is one of the
few toxic metals to humans from skin contact as opposed to ingestion)
is about 22-23 and is the densest element. I don't know of any denser
alloys but can't rule it out.

On 10/18/2022 6:21 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
> Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 8:06:24 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 10/18/2022 11:37 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 12:28:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>>>>>>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>>>>>>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>>>>>>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>>>>>>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>>>>>>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>>>>>>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>>>>>>>>> fluctuation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is not an accurate characterization:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
>>>>>>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
>>>>>>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
>>>>>>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
>>>>>>> in a mercury thermometer."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>>>>>>> with the advent of LED lighting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
>>>>>> LEDs....
>>>>> Indeed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
>>>>> comes along.
>>>>>
>>>>> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
>>>>
>>>> Better made, longer lasting LEDs.
>>>> Dubai bulbs: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/
>>>>
>>>> Pt
>>> I buy these 70 bulb and 90 bulb LED floodlights for my warehouse. I
>>> have bought sixteen of them so far. No failures of a single LED bulb in
>>> over five years from the first one I bought.
>>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DFQ84CM/
>>>
>>> Picture of several floodlights that I have replaced.
>>> https://www.winsim.com/ceiling_of_warehouse_2.jpg
>>>
>>> Lynn
>> What is a failure? This seems to be multiple LED units in a single package. Are all of the units still working? I have used consumer grade LED lights for some time - the usually last a a long time, but I have had to replace some.
>
> The floods Lynn linked to are $137 each. One would hope that comes with at
> least a slight increase in quality.
> My experience with LED bulbs has been similar to my experience with other
> consumer electronics...if they don't die in the first few weeks they'll
> usually last for years. The batch of 12 cheap candelabra LEDs that I bought
> in August had one DOA and two failures (one dead, one strobing) in the first
> two days...none since.
>
> Robert

The biggest thing that those floodlight LEDs of mine is that they have a
huge finned heat sink so the power supply does not get hot.

I have about 60 or 70 LED light bulbs in my office building. I use the
16 watt (100 watt equivalent) GE bulbs. I have had about 6 or 7 of them
fail this year alone, mostly can lights. All of them show heat distress
in the base with the plastic cracked and discolored.

Lynn

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/18/2022 6:21 PM, rkshullat@rosettacondot.com wrote:
>> Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 8:06:24 PM UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>> On 10/18/2022 11:37 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 12:28:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>>>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>>>>> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>>>>>>>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>>>>>>>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>>>>>>>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>>>>>>>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>>>>>>>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>>>>>>>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>>>>>>>>>> fluctuation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is not an accurate characterization:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
>>>>>>>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
>>>>>>>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
>>>>>>>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
>>>>>>>> in a mercury thermometer."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>>>>>>>> with the advent of LED lighting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
>>>>>>> LEDs....
>>>>>> Indeed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
>>>>>> comes along.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
>>>>>
>>>>> Better made, longer lasting LEDs.
>>>>> Dubai bulbs: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/
>>>>>
>>>>> Pt
>>>> I buy these 70 bulb and 90 bulb LED floodlights for my warehouse. I
>>>> have bought sixteen of them so far. No failures of a single LED bulb in
>>>> over five years from the first one I bought.
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DFQ84CM/
>>>>
>>>> Picture of several floodlights that I have replaced.
>>>> https://www.winsim.com/ceiling_of_warehouse_2.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>> What is a failure? This seems to be multiple LED units in a single package. Are all of the units still working? I have used consumer grade LED lights for some time - the usually last a a long time, but I have had to replace some.
>>
>> The floods Lynn linked to are $137 each. One would hope that comes with at
>> least a slight increase in quality.
>> My experience with LED bulbs has been similar to my experience with other
>> consumer electronics...if they don't die in the first few weeks they'll
>> usually last for years. The batch of 12 cheap candelabra LEDs that I bought
>> in August had one DOA and two failures (one dead, one strobing) in the first
>> two days...none since.
>>
>> Robert
>
> The biggest thing that those floodlight LEDs of mine is that they have a
> huge finned heat sink so the power supply does not get hot.
>
> I have about 60 or 70 LED light bulbs in my office building. I use the
> 16 watt (100 watt equivalent) GE bulbs. I have had about 6 or 7 of them
> fail this year alone, mostly can lights. All of them show heat distress
> in the base with the plastic cracked and discolored.

Some of the LEDs I've seen had a "not for use in recessed lighting" label
on them for just that reason.
I had the electrician that was doing a complete rewire of my dad's house
(1970 aluminum wiring) replace all of the cans with canless LEDs.
I have plenty of spares and they're held in place by spring clips so
easily replaced, although none of them have failed so far.

Robert
--
Robert K. Shull Email: rkshull at rosettacon dot com

Robert Carnegie <rja.carnegie@excite.com> writes:
>On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 22:07:56 UTC+1, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>> >On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >> Well, what are the desirable properties?
>> >>
>> >> * High efficiency in turning electrical energy into visible light.
>> >> I see constantly that 'LEDs use 85% less energy than incandescents', but the number
>> >> the actually seems to matter is lumens/watt: 10 for incandescents, and 37-120 for
>> >> LEDs.
>> >>
>> >> * LEDs need DC to run efficiently, and turning AC to DC leads to additional losses:
>> >> full wave rectifiers lose almost 20% of input energy. Efficient running on AC might be
>> >> desirable.
>> >>
>> >> * Color truth. Incandescents emit black body radiation, and show true colors for
>> >> their temperature. LEDs have a much choppier spectrum, and colors may be incorrect.
>> >>
>> >> I'm sure others can think of more.
>> >
>> >Your reply, and the previous one to which you replied, are well-thought-out.
>> <snip>
>> >However, for *outdoor* lighting, there _is_ a desirable property that LEDs lack. One that
>> >a predecessor technology, low-pressure sodium lights, posessed. That is, the property
>> >of emitting monospectral light so that it could easily be filtered out by astronomical
>> >observers.
>> I don't think this is as big a consideration for LED lights as it was for
>> mercury vapor. LED lighting is very directional, unlike MV or SV; in
>> San Jose (which for decades had SV lighting for the nearby Lick Observatory)
>> the city has completely switched to 5k color temp LED street lighting; without
>> interfering with observations (and significantly less overspill into the homes
>> along the street) at the Lick Observatory.
>>
>> Now, billboards on the other hand...
>>
>> https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/25/south-bay-astronomers-fear-proposed-airport-billboards-would-threaten-night-viewing/
>
>You do need to stop that before we get to -
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Jupiter>

Recent proposal for satellite advertising:

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/10/1026365725/spacex-billboard-ads-satellite-orbit-livestream-space-tiny-gec-cubesat
https://techcrunch.com/2022/10/05/space-billboards-could-cost-65m-and-still-turn-a-profit/
https://www.businessinsider.com/billboards-in-space-are-fast-approaching-a-new-study-says-2022-10

On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:43:12 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
> >On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 22:07:56 UTC+1, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
> >> >On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Well, what are the desirable properties?
> >> >>
> >> >> * High efficiency in turning electrical energy into visible light.
> >> >> I see constantly that 'LEDs use 85% less energy than incandescents', but the number
> >> >> the actually seems to matter is lumens/watt: 10 for incandescents, and 37-120 for
> >> >> LEDs.
> >> >>
> >> >> * LEDs need DC to run efficiently, and turning AC to DC leads to additional losses:
> >> >> full wave rectifiers lose almost 20% of input energy. Efficient running on AC might be
> >> >> desirable.
> >> >>
> >> >> * Color truth. Incandescents emit black body radiation, and show true colors for
> >> >> their temperature. LEDs have a much choppier spectrum, and colors may be incorrect.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm sure others can think of more.
> >> >
> >> >Your reply, and the previous one to which you replied, are well-thought-out.
> >> <snip>
> >> >However, for *outdoor* lighting, there _is_ a desirable property that LEDs lack. One that
> >> >a predecessor technology, low-pressure sodium lights, posessed. That is, the property
> >> >of emitting monospectral light so that it could easily be filtered out by astronomical
> >> >observers.
> >> I don't think this is as big a consideration for LED lights as it was for
> >> mercury vapor. LED lighting is very directional, unlike MV or SV; in
> >> San Jose (which for decades had SV lighting for the nearby Lick Observatory)
> >> the city has completely switched to 5k color temp LED street lighting; without
> >> interfering with observations (and significantly less overspill into the homes
> >> along the street) at the Lick Observatory.
> >>
> >> Now, billboards on the other hand...
> >>
> >> https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/25/south-bay-astronomers-fear-proposed-airport-billboards-would-threaten-night-viewing/
> >
> >You do need to stop that before we get to -
> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Jupiter>
> Recent proposal for satellite advertising:
>
> https://www.npr.org/2021/08/10/1026365725/spacex-billboard-ads-satellite-orbit-livestream-space-tiny-gec-cubesat
> https://techcrunch.com/2022/10/05/space-billboards-could-cost-65m-and-still-turn-a-profit/
> https://www.businessinsider.com/billboards-in-space-are-fast-approaching-a-new-study-says-2022-10

TLDNR: Ads projected on a screen on a tiny cubesat, and video sent to the ground. Not visible
from the ground, and not without a great deal of effort.

Reminds me of the 'Cuecat'. Marketeers with their heads so far up their asses they think
people will go to a lot of effort to view *more* advertising.

pt

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:43:12 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Robert Carnegie <rja.ca...@excite.com> writes:
>> >On Tuesday, 18 October 2022 at 22:07:56 UTC+1, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>> >> >On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 1:59:08 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >> Well, what are the desirable properties?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> * High efficiency in turning electrical energy into visible light.
>> >> >> I see constantly that 'LEDs use 85% less energy than incandescents', but the number
>> >> >> the actually seems to matter is lumens/watt: 10 for incandescents, and 37-120 for
>> >> >> LEDs.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> * LEDs need DC to run efficiently, and turning AC to DC leads to additional losses:
>> >> >> full wave rectifiers lose almost 20% of input energy. Efficient running on AC might be
>> >> >> desirable.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> * Color truth. Incandescents emit black body radiation, and show true colors for
>> >> >> their temperature. LEDs have a much choppier spectrum, and colors may be incorrect.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'm sure others can think of more.
>> >> >
>> >> >Your reply, and the previous one to which you replied, are well-thought-out.
>> >> <snip>
>> >> >However, for *outdoor* lighting, there _is_ a desirable property that LEDs lack. One that
>> >> >a predecessor technology, low-pressure sodium lights, posessed. That is, the property
>> >> >of emitting monospectral light so that it could easily be filtered out by astronomical
>> >> >observers.
>> >> I don't think this is as big a consideration for LED lights as it was for
>> >> mercury vapor. LED lighting is very directional, unlike MV or SV; in
>> >> San Jose (which for decades had SV lighting for the nearby Lick Observatory)
>> >> the city has completely switched to 5k color temp LED street lighting; without
>> >> interfering with observations (and significantly less overspill into the homes
>> >> along the street) at the Lick Observatory.
>> >>
>> >> Now, billboards on the other hand...
>> >>
>> >> https://www.mercurynews.com/2022/01/25/south-bay-astronomers-fear-proposed-airport-billboards-would-threaten-night-viewing/
>> >
>> >You do need to stop that before we get to -
>> ><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buy_Jupiter>
>> Recent proposal for satellite advertising:
>>
>> https://www.npr.org/2021/08/10/1026365725/spacex-billboard-ads-satellite-orbit-livestream-space-tiny-gec-cubesat
>> https://techcrunch.com/2022/10/05/space-billboards-could-cost-65m-and-still-turn-a-profit/
>> https://www.businessinsider.com/billboards-in-space-are-fast-approaching-a-new-study-says-2022-10
>
>TLDNR: Ads projected on a screen on a tiny cubesat, and video sent to the ground. Not visible
>from the ground, and not without a great deal of effort.
>
>Reminds me of the 'Cuecat'. Marketeers with their heads so far up their asses they think
>people will go to a lot of effort to view *more* advertising.
>
>pt

Just wait until D.D. Harriman contracts with 7-Up[*] to cover the
moon with carbon dust in a 7-Up logo :-)

The second link proposes a satellite constellation that would be
visible to the bare eye.

[*] Memory says RAH didn't explicitly name the company...

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:43:12 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>Reminds me of the 'Cuecat'. Marketeers with their heads so far up their asses they think
>people will go to a lot of effort to view *more* advertising.

I have one of those in a box somewhere. Made a nice bar-code reader on linux,
and using the keyboard port meant no special driver required.

On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 14:06:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 10/18/2022 11:37 AM, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 18, 2022 at 12:28:48 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>>> <dtr...@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
>>>>>> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>>>>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>>>>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>>>>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>>>>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>>>>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>>>>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>>>>>>> fluctuation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is not an accurate characterization:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
>>>>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
>>>>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
>>>>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
>>>>> in a mercury thermometer."
>>>>>
>>>>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>>>>> with the advent of LED lighting.
>>>>
>>>> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
>>>> LEDs....
>>> Indeed.
>>>
>>> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
>>> comes along.
>>>
>>> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
>>
>> Better made, longer lasting LEDs.
>> Dubai bulbs: https://hackaday.com/2021/01/17/leds-from-dubai-the-royal-lights-you-cant-buy/
>>
>> Pt
>
>I buy these 70 bulb and 90 bulb LED floodlights for my warehouse. I
>have bought sixteen of them so far. No failures of a single LED bulb in
>over five years from the first one I bought.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DFQ84CM/

IIR the propaganda correctly, five years is as nothing compared to how
long they should last.

The problem, of course, is that nobody has used one long enough to
find out.

Never mind verified if the cost savings are real. Do those include a
reduction for the loss of incandescent bulbs' heat which must be made
up by the heating system which then costs more to use? Didn't think
so.

>Picture of several floodlights that I have replaced.
> https://www.winsim.com/ceiling_of_warehouse_2.jpg

Hard to reach, no doubt, and so a perfect application for fluorescent
tubes or the said-to-be-longer-lasting-and-may-well-be LEDs.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Tue, 18 Oct 2022 11:56:53 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 10/18/2022 9:28 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 12:08:25 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
>> <dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/17/2022 8:52 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
>>>>> On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 07:28:52 -0700 (PDT), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>>>>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the present time there are very strict standards regarding human
>>>>>> exposure to mercury vapor, to the extent that we are supposed to
>>>>>> take old fluorescent tubes and mercury switches to special sites
>>>>>> where the mercury can be recovered and recycled. It does seem
>>>>>> that they were much more casual about mercury exposure at the
>>>>>> power plant you describe, where hundreds of pounds of mercury
>>>>>> could be vented into a work space because of a temperature
>>>>>> fluctuation.
>>>>>
>>>>> And if you break a CFL, you basically have a HAZMAT site to deal with.
>>>>
>>>> That is not an accurate characterization:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.epa.gov/mercury/cleaning-broken-cfl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Don't be alarmed; the steps outlined below are only
>>>> precautions that reflect best practices for cleaning up a
>>>> broken CFL. Keep in mind that CFLs contain a very small
>>>> amount of mercury -- less than 1/100th of the amount
>>>> in a mercury thermometer."
>>>>
>>>> Fortunately, it's mainly a problem that we've put behind us
>>>> with the advent of LED lighting.
>>>
>>> Or will be behind us when we've physically _replaced_ all the CFLs with
>>> LEDs....
>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>> Long-lasting tech can be problematic when new longer-lasting tech
>> comes along.
>>
>> What will replace LEDs, I wonder.
>
>Which is not the same question as "What will be available to replace
>LEDs?" ;) (I can imagine people in 2070 talking about the multiple
>generations of new light bulbs that have come out and asking why they
>are still using LEDs simply because they haven't burned out yet.)

Yes, they do go rather against the sacred business concept of "planned
obselescence".

But by 2070 the people asking that question are likely to find that
the Latest and Greatest lighting solution is all they can find at
their local store.

Perhaps they will sell LEDs on-line by year of manufacture. With some
years being preferred.

Stranger things have happened.

--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

In article <ChU3L.115586$tRy7.103510@fx36.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>Just wait until D.D. Harriman contracts with 7-Up[*] to cover the
>moon with carbon dust in a 7-Up logo :-)
>
>The second link proposes a satellite constellation that would be
>visible to the bare eye.
>
>[*] Memory says RAH didn't explicitly name the company...

(Hal Heydt)
Memory suggests that he was probably thinking of Coca Cola.

djheydt@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) writes:
>In article <ChU3L.115586$tRy7.103510@fx36.iad>,
>Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>Just wait until D.D. Harriman contracts with 7-Up[*] to cover the
>>moon with carbon dust in a 7-Up logo :-)
>>
>>The second link proposes a satellite constellation that would be
>>visible to the bare eye.
>>
>>[*] Memory says RAH didn't explicitly name the company...
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>Memory suggests that he was probably thinking of Coca Cola.

IIRC, he shopped the idea to multiple softdrink companies.