On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 10:18:59 PM UTC-5, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
> > >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
> > >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
> > >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
> > >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
> > >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
> > >and for that matter, so could classical music.
> > (Hal Heydt)
> > If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
> > classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
> > considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
> > music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
> > announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
> > named John Williams--and also from video games.
> >
> > Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
> > Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
> >
> > They've also been known to play Sousa.
> I read a piece claiming John Williams and others are not just the best film music
> composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
> whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
> has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This emotionality
> is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries continue to
> support the creation of new music that people find emotionally engaging, whereas
> "pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
>
> YMMV of course. I always enjoy Bernard Herrmann's score for
> _The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad_.
>

Williams was influemced by Erich Korngold.

--
Kevin R

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:12:10 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 9:52:26 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> If Quaddie thinks Phillip Glass, Arvo Pärt, Steve Reich, and Vaughn Williams
>> are rehashing Wagner and Beethoven, we've just discovered yet another
>> area of knowledge in which he's deeply ignorant, but utterly confident
>> of his knowledge.
>
>No, I don't think that; while I have much praise for the music of film composer
>John Williams, he is the sort of musician I would put in that category. But
>"rehashing" is too strong a word; it is simply that he is composing music in
>their genre without moving on into unexplored territory.
>
>Of course there is still some classical music going on. Alan Hovanhess,
>Einojuhani Rautavaara... just to name a couple. But it's not a major part of the
>culture any longer.

Judging from the wide variety of artists and approaches I encountered
when moving my classical LP collection to CD, I would say that
classical music is a very major part of modern culture.

It just isn't being written any more. That is why it is /classical/.

You surely don't think that, say, Beethoven thought of his work as
/classical/ rather than /contemporary/?

And if you don't like Beethoven, try the above with "JS Bach".
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 11:34:33 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:12:10 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 9:52:26 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> If Quaddie thinks Phillip Glass, Arvo Pärt, Steve Reich, and Vaughn Williams
> >> are rehashing Wagner and Beethoven, we've just discovered yet another
> >> area of knowledge in which he's deeply ignorant, but utterly confident
> >> of his knowledge.
> >
> >No, I don't think that; while I have much praise for the music of film composer
> >John Williams, he is the sort of musician I would put in that category. But
> >"rehashing" is too strong a word; it is simply that he is composing music in
> >their genre without moving on into unexplored territory.
> >
> >Of course there is still some classical music going on. Alan Hovanhess,
> >Einojuhani Rautavaara... just to name a couple. But it's not a major part of the
> >culture any longer.
> Judging from the wide variety of artists and approaches I encountered
> when moving my classical LP collection to CD, I would say that
> classical music is a very major part of modern culture.
>
> It just isn't being written any more. That is why it is /classical/.
>
> You surely don't think that, say, Beethoven thought of his work as
> /classical/ rather than /contemporary/?
>
> And if you don't like Beethoven, try the above with "JS Bach".
> --
> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
> development was the disintegration, under Christian
> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
> of family right."

My piano teacher was into music history. She explained that the different symphonic eras were:
Baroque (J.S. Bach, Mozart)
Classical (Beethoven was at the end of this era)
Romantic (Chopin? I think)
Contemporary (Copland, Stravinsky).

If you listen to music from each era, you can tell they each have a distinctive style. The ones that are fuzzy
are the composers that were the ones transitioning between eras (Mozart (Baroque -> Classical) and
Beethoven (Classical -> Romantic)).

I'm not sure if the current movie soundtracks are Contemporary or more retro-romantic / retro-classical.

I like John Williams as well, but he does re-use a lot. For yucks, listen to "Empire Strikes Back" (Vader's theme),
and the sound track for "Dracula" (w/Frank Langella) (Dracula's theme).

My favorite composer these days is Michael Giacchino, the second is Hans Zimmer (although he can be inconsistent).
Others include Alan Silvestri, Henry Jackman, and Jerry Goldsmith...

- Tim

Tim McCaffrey <timcaffrey@aol.com> writes:
>On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 11:34:33 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:12:10 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc=20
>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:=20

>> You surely don't think that, say, Beethoven thought of his work as=20
>> /classical/ rather than /contemporary/?=20
>>=20
>> And if you don't like Beethoven, try the above with "JS Bach".
>> --=20

>
>I like John Williams as well, but he does re-use a lot. For yucks, listen =
>to "Empire Strikes Back" (Vader's theme),
>and the sound track for "Dracula" (w/Frank Langella) (Dracula's theme).
>
>My favorite composer these days is Michael Giacchino, the second is Hans Zi=
>mmer (although he can be inconsistent).
>Others include Alan Silvestri, Henry Jackman, and Jerry Goldsmith...

I've been enjoying the works of the composer Roine Stolt lately.

On 16/11/2022 13.28, Tim McCaffrey wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 11:34:33 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:12:10 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>>> Of course there is still some classical music going on. Alan Hovanhess,
>>> Einojuhani Rautavaara... just to name a couple. But it's not a major part of the
>>> culture any longer.
>> Judging from the wide variety of artists and approaches I encountered
>> when moving my classical LP collection to CD, I would say that
>> classical music is a very major part of modern culture.
>>
>> It just isn't being written any more. That is why it is /classical/.
>>
>> You surely don't think that, say, Beethoven thought of his work as
>> /classical/ rather than /contemporary/?
>>
>> And if you don't like Beethoven, try the above with "JS Bach".

> My piano teacher was into music history. She explained that the different symphonic eras were:
> Baroque (J.S. Bach, Mozart)

Mozart? He was contemporary with Beethoven. You listen to his last
few symphonies, and you can tell he was reaching out for a new form,
a form that Beethoven finally realized -- Romantic.

Handel was basically the end of the Baroque period.

> Classical (Beethoven was at the end of this era)

Yeah, he started the Romantic era with the Eroica and put the last
nails into the coffin of Classical with the Choral.

> Romantic (Chopin? I think)

The Romantic era ran basically to the end of the nineteenth century,
which is fifty years after his death. Try names like Brahams, Wagner,
or Tchaikovsky.

> Contemporary (Copland, Stravinsky).

"Contemporary" or "Modern" are somewhat less than satisfying
names, since as Paul noted above, Beethoven's music was modern and
contemporary when he wrote it, by definition.

"Twentieth Century" might do as a name for now, but musicologists
will need to come up with a lasting label at some point. Of course,
defining common ground between Gershwin, Shostakovitch, and
Hindemith will be kind of tricky.

--
Michael F. Stemper
A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 3:05:09 PM UTC-5, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 16/11/2022 13.28, Tim McCaffrey wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 11:34:33 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:12:10 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> >> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> >>> Of course there is still some classical music going on. Alan Hovanhess,
> >>> Einojuhani Rautavaara... just to name a couple. But it's not a major part of the
> >>> culture any longer.
> >> Judging from the wide variety of artists and approaches I encountered
> >> when moving my classical LP collection to CD, I would say that
> >> classical music is a very major part of modern culture.
> >>
> >> It just isn't being written any more. That is why it is /classical/.
> >>
> >> You surely don't think that, say, Beethoven thought of his work as
> >> /classical/ rather than /contemporary/?
> >>
> >> And if you don't like Beethoven, try the above with "JS Bach".
> > My piano teacher was into music history. She explained that the different symphonic eras were:
> > Baroque (J.S. Bach, Mozart)
> Mozart? He was contemporary with Beethoven. You listen to his last
> few symphonies, and you can tell he was reaching out for a new form,
> a form that Beethoven finally realized -- Romantic.
>
> Handel was basically the end of the Baroque period.
> > Classical (Beethoven was at the end of this era)
> Yeah, he started the Romantic era with the Eroica and put the last
> nails into the coffin of Classical with the Choral.
>
> > Romantic (Chopin? I think)
>
> The Romantic era ran basically to the end of the nineteenth century,
> which is fifty years after his death. Try names like Brahams, Wagner,
> or Tchaikovsky.
>
> > Contemporary (Copland, Stravinsky).
>
> "Contemporary" or "Modern" are somewhat less than satisfying
> names, since as Paul noted above, Beethoven's music was modern and
> contemporary when he wrote it, by definition.
>
> "Twentieth Century" might do as a name for now, but musicologists
> will need to come up with a lasting label at some point. Of course,
> defining common ground between Gershwin, Shostakovitch, and
> Hindemith will be kind of tricky.

I think that 20th century "classical" music is so diverse that there is no
one name for it. There is impressionism, with Debussy, Ravel, Delius
and early Vaughan Williams, among others (though Debussy strongly
rejected the label).

Then there is Neoclassicism, exemplified by Stravinsky and Respighi.

Schonberg seems to have gone through several styles. When people
called his music too radical, he was often able to come up with an
example of Brahms doing much the same thing.

Prokofiev, Hindemith, Shostakovitch. All have elements of neoclassicism
in their work, but also much more. I can't think of a good label for
any of them.

William Hyde

On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 14:04:54 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
<michael.stemper@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 16/11/2022 13.28, Tim McCaffrey wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 11:34:33 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:12:10 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>>> Of course there is still some classical music going on. Alan Hovanhess,
>>>> Einojuhani Rautavaara... just to name a couple. But it's not a major part of the
>>>> culture any longer.
>>> Judging from the wide variety of artists and approaches I encountered
>>> when moving my classical LP collection to CD, I would say that
>>> classical music is a very major part of modern culture.
>>>
>>> It just isn't being written any more. That is why it is /classical/.
>>>
>>> You surely don't think that, say, Beethoven thought of his work as
>>> /classical/ rather than /contemporary/?
>>>
>>> And if you don't like Beethoven, try the above with "JS Bach".
>
>> My piano teacher was into music history. She explained that the different symphonic eras were:
>> Baroque (J.S. Bach, Mozart)
>
>Mozart? He was contemporary with Beethoven. You listen to his last
>few symphonies, and you can tell he was reaching out for a new form,
>a form that Beethoven finally realized -- Romantic.
>
>Handel was basically the end of the Baroque period.
>
>> Classical (Beethoven was at the end of this era)
>
>Yeah, he started the Romantic era with the Eroica and put the last
>nails into the coffin of Classical with the Choral.
>
>> Romantic (Chopin? I think)
>
>The Romantic era ran basically to the end of the nineteenth century,
>which is fifty years after his death. Try names like Brahams, Wagner,
>or Tchaikovsky.
>
>> Contemporary (Copland, Stravinsky).
>
>"Contemporary" or "Modern" are somewhat less than satisfying
>names, since as Paul noted above, Beethoven's music was modern and
>contemporary when he wrote it, by definition.

A problem not limited to music: Toynbee, at one point, defined the
/end/ of the Modern Era to be the start of WW1. So everything from
that onward is post-modern.

Except, of course, that "modern" just means "what we are doing right
now". It's a moving target.

(To be fair, Toynbee was referring to a philosophical attitude that
claimed that everything was getting better and better and that we had
left the old dark days behind us -- which the start of WW1 definitely
showed to be wrong.)

>"Twentieth Century" might do as a name for now, but musicologists
>will need to come up with a lasting label at some point. Of course,
>defining common ground between Gershwin, Shostakovitch, and
>Hindemith will be kind of tricky.

It is, however, at least precise, since we are in the 21st Century
now.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 11:28:23 -0800 (PST), Tim McCaffrey
<timcaffrey@aol.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 11:34:33 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:12:10 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>
>> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 9:52:26 PM UTC-6, pete...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> If Quaddie thinks Phillip Glass, Arvo Pärt, Steve Reich, and Vaughn Williams
>> >> are rehashing Wagner and Beethoven, we've just discovered yet another
>> >> area of knowledge in which he's deeply ignorant, but utterly confident
>> >> of his knowledge.
>> >
>> >No, I don't think that; while I have much praise for the music of film composer
>> >John Williams, he is the sort of musician I would put in that category. But
>> >"rehashing" is too strong a word; it is simply that he is composing music in
>> >their genre without moving on into unexplored territory.
>> >
>> >Of course there is still some classical music going on. Alan Hovanhess,
>> >Einojuhani Rautavaara... just to name a couple. But it's not a major part of the
>> >culture any longer.
>> Judging from the wide variety of artists and approaches I encountered
>> when moving my classical LP collection to CD, I would say that
>> classical music is a very major part of modern culture.
>>
>> It just isn't being written any more. That is why it is /classical/.
>>
>> You surely don't think that, say, Beethoven thought of his work as
>> /classical/ rather than /contemporary/?
>>
>> And if you don't like Beethoven, try the above with "JS Bach".
>> --
>> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
>> development was the disintegration, under Christian
>> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
>> of family right."
>
>My piano teacher was into music history. She explained that the different symphonic eras were:
>Baroque (J.S. Bach, Mozart)
>Classical (Beethoven was at the end of this era)
>Romantic (Chopin? I think)
>Contemporary (Copland, Stravinsky).
>
>If you listen to music from each era, you can tell they each have a distinctive style. The ones that are fuzzy
>are the composers that were the ones transitioning between eras (Mozart (Baroque -> Classical) and
>Beethoven (Classical -> Romantic)).

As it happens, I prefer Baroque and before (monody, polyphony,
madrigals, that sort of thing). I do have /9 Symphonien/, as Beethoven
is too good to ignore.

>I'm not sure if the current movie soundtracks are Contemporary or more retro-romantic / retro-classical.

I don't know about "contemporary", but /some/ soundtracks -- and not
just the ones with a lot of great songs on them, like Morodor's
/Metropolis/ or /The Warriors/ -- work very well as separate
compositions. /Octopussy/, for example.

In face, I bought and enjoyed the sountrack to /F.I.S.T./ before I saw
the film -- and found the film to be disappointing. But not the
soundtrack album.

>I like John Williams as well, but he does re-use a lot. For yucks, listen to "Empire Strikes Back" (Vader's theme),
>and the sound track for "Dracula" (w/Frank Langella) (Dracula's theme).

The James Bond theme and the opening theme of /Midnight Cowboy/ have
similarities as well. Similarities to the basso continuo concept in
much older music.

Interesting, Handel re-used some of his pieces also. This is not
something new.

>My favorite composer these days is Michael Giacchino, the second is Hans Zimmer (although he can be inconsistent).
>Others include Alan Silvestri, Henry Jackman, and Jerry Goldsmith...

I recognize the names, and would add Bernard Herrmann and Ennio
Morricone.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On 16/11/2022 14.44, William Hyde wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 3:05:09 PM UTC-5, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 16/11/2022 13.28, Tim McCaffrey wrote:

>>> Contemporary (Copland, Stravinsky).
>>
>> "Contemporary" or "Modern" are somewhat less than satisfying
>> names, since as Paul noted above, Beethoven's music was modern and
>> contemporary when he wrote it, by definition.
>>
>> "Twentieth Century" might do as a name for now, but musicologists
>> will need to come up with a lasting label at some point. Of course,
>> defining common ground between Gershwin, Shostakovitch, and
>> Hindemith will be kind of tricky.
>
> I think that 20th century "classical" music is so diverse that there is no
> one name for it.

That's my opinion as well, but I'm far from being a musicologist.

> There is impressionism, with Debussy, Ravel, Delius
> and early Vaughan Williams, among others (though Debussy strongly
> rejected the label).

Which is funny, since when I encounter the term, the exemplar that comes
to my mind is Debussy.

> Then there is Neoclassicism, exemplified by Stravinsky and Respighi.
>
> Schonberg seems to have gone through several styles. When people
> called his music too radical, he was often able to come up with an
> example of Brahms doing much the same thing.
>
> Prokofiev, Hindemith, Shostakovitch. All have elements of neoclassicism

Such as Prokofiev's First Symphony? (SCNR)

--
Michael F. Stemper
This post contains greater than 95% post-consumer bytes by weight.

In article <5a905c67-c4a3-418f-9f47-4c040751d6c4n@googlegroups.com>,
peterwezeman@hotmail.com <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
>> >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
>> >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
>> >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
>> >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
>> >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
>> >and for that matter, so could classical music.
>> (Hal Heydt)
>> If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
>> classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
>> considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
>> music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
>> announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
>> named John Williams--and also from video games.
>>
>> Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
>> Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
>>
>> They've also been known to play Sousa.
>
>I read a piece claiming John Williams and others are not just the best
>film music
>composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
>whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
>has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This emotionality
>is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries
>continue to
>support the creation of new music that people find emotionally engaging, whereas
>"pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
>
>YMMV of course. I always enjoy Bernard Herrmann's score for
>_The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad_.

(Hal Heydt)
There appear to be either quite a number of composers, or people
who work with them, that like to assemble suites of music from
movies. This has been done with a bunch of John Willimas
scores...and they show up in the "Classical" repertoire. Just
this evening, KDFC played the flight music from ET, for instance.

If you go farther back, the same was done with the incidental
music for stage productions. The suite for Carmen shows up
regularly. (And, indeed, on the CD "10" by the ensemble 10Thing,
led by Tine Thing Helseth, you can listen to Carmen suite
re-orchestrated for brass ensemble.)

In article <3b3512d3-8c6b-480b-a2af-24b8cce7f12cn@googlegroups.com>,
Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote:
>On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 3:18:59 AM UTC, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> > In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
>> > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> > >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
>> > >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
>> > >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
>> > >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
>> > >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
>> > >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
>> > >and for that matter, so could classical music.
>> > (Hal Heydt)
>> > If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
>> > classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
>> > considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
>> > music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
>> > announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
>> > named John Williams--and also from video games.
>> >
>> > Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
>> > Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
>> >
>> > They've also been known to play Sousa.
>> I read a piece claiming John Williams and others are not just the best
>film music
>> composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
>> whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
>> has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This
>emotionality
>> is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries
>continue to
>> support the creation of new music that people find emotionally
>engaging, whereas
>> "pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
>>
>> YMMV of course. I always enjoy Bernard Herrmann's score for
>> _The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad_.
>>
>> Peter Wezeman
>> anti-social Darwinist
>I listen to a BBC Radio 3 program called "The Early Music Show" which is
>as you would expect - but also runs competitions for modern composers
>writing in the style of early music, and for period instruments. Alas,
>Sunday's program featured the winning compositions (admittedly by
>competitors still learning to be composers) and I wasn't impressed by
>the pieces, or by the high-flown language about what the composer was
>trying to achieve. I suspect that one reason why I like early music is
>that it was written for patrons who (unlike Radio 3 judges) did not have
>particularly refined tastes.

(Hal Heydt)
There is a modern composer, William Bolcom, who is writing
ragtime. Quite good ragtime, actually.

Then there was Dorothy's take on Bach's Brandenburg Concertos.
There are six of them and they were sent to the Margrave of
Banderburg as a sort of job application. Bach never heard back.
Dorothy's theory was that he showed them to his concert master
who said, "These are absoultely marvelous, but they're beyond the
skill of anyone I've got." at which point the Margrave put them
away in a drawer and forgot about them. The rest is, of course,
history.

In article <4rq4nhdbqja0230qg6ct658m0nurvl2iag@4ax.com>,
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>So "pure" that nobody can stand to listen to it, no doubt. Although
>the elitists, of course, pretend to like it.

(Hal Heydt)
William S. Gilbert had some words--with music by Sir Arthur
Sullivan--about that phenomenon. Though he was criticizing
poetry fads.

Side note... I find it odd (even though I do it myself), that it
is customary to note Sullivan's knighthood, but not Gilbert's.

In article <rLM36A.17qo@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <djheydt@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <4rq4nhdbqja0230qg6ct658m0nurvl2iag@4ax.com>,
>Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
>>So "pure" that nobody can stand to listen to it, no doubt. Although
>>the elitists, of course, pretend to like it.
>
>(Hal Heydt)
>William S. Gilbert had some words--with music by Sir Arthur
>Sullivan--about that phenomenon. Though he was criticizing
>poetry fads.
>
>Side note... I find it odd (even though I do it myself), that it
>is customary to note Sullivan's knighthood, but not Gilbert's.
>

And of course Gilbert O'Sullivan has never (yet) been knighted.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 4:36:04 PM UTC-5, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 16/11/2022 14.44, William Hyde wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 3:05:09 PM UTC-5, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> >> On 16/11/2022 13.28, Tim McCaffrey wrote:
>
> >>> Contemporary (Copland, Stravinsky).
> >>
> >> "Contemporary" or "Modern" are somewhat less than satisfying
> >> names, since as Paul noted above, Beethoven's music was modern and
> >> contemporary when he wrote it, by definition.
> >>
> >> "Twentieth Century" might do as a name for now, but musicologists
> >> will need to come up with a lasting label at some point. Of course,
> >> defining common ground between Gershwin, Shostakovitch, and
> >> Hindemith will be kind of tricky.
> >
> > I think that 20th century "classical" music is so diverse that there is no
> > one name for it.
> That's my opinion as well, but I'm far from being a musicologist.
> > There is impressionism, with Debussy, Ravel, Delius
> > and early Vaughan Williams, among others (though Debussy strongly
> > rejected the label).
> Which is funny, since when I encounter the term, the exemplar that comes
> to my mind is Debussy.
> > Then there is Neoclassicism, exemplified by Stravinsky and Respighi.
> >
> > Schonberg seems to have gone through several styles. When people
> > called his music too radical, he was often able to come up with an
> > example of Brahms doing much the same thing.
> >
> > Prokofiev, Hindemith, Shostakovitch. All have elements of neoclassicism
> Such as Prokofiev's First Symphony? (SCNR)

Oddly enough, some people claim that his "classical" symphony was not
in fact neoclassical, but a predecessor to neoclassicism proper. Makes
my head hurt to think about it.

I think some of his later works (fifth symphony?) would qualify as
neoclassical.

At this point I want to put in a plug for his second piano concerto. To start
with such a spiky, ungainly, them and turn it into a thing of beauty... I've no
idea what its proper label is.

This is one of many works that caught me by surprise. I listened to in many
times, though it was OK, then one day suddenly noticed that it was not
simply good, but brilliant. Slow learner, I guess.

William Hyde

On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 11:26:13 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 19:18:57 -0800 (PST), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >> >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
> >> >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
> >> >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
> >> >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
> >> >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
> >> >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
> >> >and for that matter, so could classical music.
> >> (Hal Heydt)
> >> If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
> >> classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
> >> considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
> >> music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
> >> announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
> >> named John Williams--and also from video games.
> >>
> >> Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
> >> Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
> >>
> >> They've also been known to play Sousa.
> >
> >I read a piece claiming John Williams and others are not just the best film music
> >composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
> >whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
> >has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This emotionality
> >is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries continue to
> >support the creation of new music that people find emotionally engaging, whereas
> >"pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
> So "pure" that nobody can stand to listen to it, no doubt. Although
> the elitists, of course, pretend to like it.

But that is always the claim made by musical conservatives. And, fifty years
later it is often shown to be wrong.

In the case of Schonberg, it didn't take that long. "Verklarte Nacht" was condemned
as unmusical, then later in his career cited as evidence that he could write good
listenable music instead of this new stuff.

Richard Reti wrote his "New ideas in chess" in part to defend innovators in music,
art, and literature from conservative critics. He pointed out that the new
ideas in chess got the same criticism, but in chess there is a more rapid
way of establishing whether new ideas are justified - by winning games
with them.

That said the most "unmusical' pieces I listen to with any regularity are
Messaien's quartet, Prokoviev's second symphony and some
Stockhausen. I used to enjoy Webern, but haven't listened to any
of his work for decades. The older I get the more conservative
my taste seems to become.

I have listened to a fair amount of Xenakis, but that's more an exercise
in intellect than music. I have no emotional response to his work.

The oldest piece in my collection was written circa 600, but the vast bulk
of my listening is in the period from Bach to Shostakovitch.

SF brought me to two pieces I might not have discovered for a long time.
A Silverberg story to Pergolisi's "Stabat Mater", and Paul Cook's
"Duende Meadow" to Bax's "Tintagel".

William Hyde

On Saturday, 19 November 2022 at 20:37:33 UTC, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <4rq4nhdbqja0230qg...@4ax.com>,
> Paul S Person <pspe...@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
> >So "pure" that nobody can stand to listen to it, no doubt. Although
> >the elitists, of course, pretend to like it.
> (Hal Heydt)
> William S. Gilbert had some words--with music by Sir Arthur
> Sullivan--about that phenomenon. Though he was criticizing
> poetry fads.
>
> Side note... I find it odd (even though I do it myself), that it
> is customary to note Sullivan's knighthood, but not Gilbert's.

I think it's partly, maybe mostly, because Gilbert is usually
titled by initials, "W.S.", and not by forenames. "Sir" goes with
a forename. Also, it was much later. Wikipedia says:
"Gilbert was knighted on 15 July 1907 in recognition of his
contributions to drama. Sullivan had been knighted for his
contributions to music almost a quarter of a century earlier,
in 1883. Gilbert was, however, the first British writer ever to
receive a knighthood for his plays alone – earlier dramatist
knights, such as Sir William Davenant and Sir John Vanbrugh,
were knighted for political and other services." Sir Arthur
Sullivan died in 1900, being in poor health.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:08:09 -0800 (PST), William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 11:26:13 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 19:18:57 -0800 (PST), "peterwezeman@hotmail.com"
>> <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >> In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >> >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
>> >> >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
>> >> >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
>> >> >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
>> >> >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
>> >> >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
>> >> >and for that matter, so could classical music.
>> >> (Hal Heydt)
>> >> If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
>> >> classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
>> >> considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
>> >> music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
>> >> announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
>> >> named John Williams--and also from video games.
>> >>
>> >> Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
>> >> Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
>> >>
>> >> They've also been known to play Sousa.
>> >
>> >I read a piece claiming John Williams and others are not just the best film music
>> >composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
>> >whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
>> >has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This emotionality
>> >is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries continue to
>> >support the creation of new music that people find emotionally engaging, whereas
>> >"pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
>> So "pure" that nobody can stand to listen to it, no doubt. Although
>> the elitists, of course, pretend to like it.
>
>But that is always the claim made by musical conservatives. And, fifty years
>later it is often shown to be wrong.

That may be, but it still remains that 90% of everything is crap.

>In the case of Schonberg, it didn't take that long. "Verklarte Nacht" was condemned
>as unmusical, then later in his career cited as evidence that he could write good
>listenable music instead of this new stuff.
>
>Richard Reti wrote his "New ideas in chess" in part to defend innovators in music,
>art, and literature from conservative critics. He pointed out that the new
>ideas in chess got the same criticism, but in chess there is a more rapid
>way of establishing whether new ideas are justified - by winning games
>with them.

When my brother was in the hospital a few years back, he watched
movies on TV to pass the time. He noted that a lot of them were films
he remembered from the 70s or 80s. I told him they were "the New
Classics".

They were, IOW, now-classic films we had seen in a theater when we
were younger, as opposed to classic films we had never seen in a
theater (having been born too late to do so) but had seen on
late-night TV.

>That said the most "unmusical' pieces I listen to with any regularity are
>Messaien's quartet, Prokoviev's second symphony and some
>Stockhausen. I used to enjoy Webern, but haven't listened to any
>of his work for decades. The older I get the more conservative
>my taste seems to become.
>
>I have listened to a fair amount of Xenakis, but that's more an exercise
>in intellect than music. I have no emotional response to his work.

I bought his /Oresteia/ from MHS, but it didn't make the cut to be
included in my current mp3 file collection.

It's in a box, one of six, containing LPs that either didn't make the
cut or did but were replaced by a CD. That's /nine linear feet/ of
LPs, BTW. I'm waiting for enough time to investigate what to do with
them.

>The oldest piece in my collection was written circa 600, but the vast bulk
>of my listening is in the period from Bach to Shostakovitch.

I might or might not have something that old, presuming it is a part
of a liturgy or similar context. I have a lot of "variations" on
various songs; the variations are Medieval, but the songs may be
older.

>SF brought me to two pieces I might not have discovered for a long time.
>A Silverberg story to Pergolisi's "Stabat Mater", and Paul Cook's
>"Duende Meadow" to Bax's "Tintagel".
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 1:21:07 AM UTC-6, Kevrob wrote:
> On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 10:18:59 PM UTC-5, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > > In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > > >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
> > > >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
> > > >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
> > > >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
> > > >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
> > > >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
> > > >and for that matter, so could classical music.
> > > (Hal Heydt)
> > > If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
> > > classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
> > > considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
> > > music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
> > > announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
> > > named John Williams--and also from video games.
> > >
> > > Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
> > > Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
> > >
> > > They've also been known to play Sousa.
> > I read a piece claiming John Williams and others are not just the best film music
> > composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
> > whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
> > has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This emotionality
> > is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries continue to
> > support the creation of new music that people find emotionally engaging, whereas
> > "pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
> >
> > YMMV of course. I always enjoy Bernard Herrmann's score for
> > _The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad_.
> >
> Williams was influemced by Erich Korngold.
>
> --
> Kevin R

And Gustav Holst. The influence of Holst's 'The Planets' is there to be heard in Williams' Star Wars work.

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:33:03 AM UTC-6, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 14:04:54 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
> <michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On 16/11/2022 13.28, Tim McCaffrey wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 11:34:33 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:12:10 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
> >>> <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>>> Of course there is still some classical music going on. Alan Hovanhess,
> >>>> Einojuhani Rautavaara... just to name a couple. But it's not a major part of the
> >>>> culture any longer.
> >>> Judging from the wide variety of artists and approaches I encountered
> >>> when moving my classical LP collection to CD, I would say that
> >>> classical music is a very major part of modern culture.
> >>>
> >>> It just isn't being written any more. That is why it is /classical/.
> >>>
> >>> You surely don't think that, say, Beethoven thought of his work as
> >>> /classical/ rather than /contemporary/?
> >>>
> >>> And if you don't like Beethoven, try the above with "JS Bach".
> >
> >> My piano teacher was into music history. She explained that the different symphonic eras were:
> >> Baroque (J.S. Bach, Mozart)
> >
> >Mozart? He was contemporary with Beethoven. You listen to his last
> >few symphonies, and you can tell he was reaching out for a new form,
> >a form that Beethoven finally realized -- Romantic.
> >
> >Handel was basically the end of the Baroque period.
> >
> >> Classical (Beethoven was at the end of this era)
> >
> >Yeah, he started the Romantic era with the Eroica and put the last
> >nails into the coffin of Classical with the Choral.
> >
> >> Romantic (Chopin? I think)
> >
> >The Romantic era ran basically to the end of the nineteenth century,
> >which is fifty years after his death. Try names like Brahams, Wagner,
> >or Tchaikovsky.
> >
> >> Contemporary (Copland, Stravinsky).
> >
> >"Contemporary" or "Modern" are somewhat less than satisfying
> >names, since as Paul noted above, Beethoven's music was modern and
> >contemporary when he wrote it, by definition.
> A problem not limited to music: Toynbee, at one point, defined the
> /end/ of the Modern Era to be the start of WW1. So everything from
> that onward is post-modern.

Oswald Spengler pinned the beginning of the 'modern' era, in his own schema, to the Napoleonic Wars, he believed that Napoleon was to Western Christendom roughly what Alexander of Macedon was to Greco-Roman Civilization. He also believed that this juncture went beyond politics to affect all the arts, including (especially) music.

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 12:51:01 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 1:21:07 AM UTC-6, Kevrob wrote:
> > On Sunday, November 13, 2022 at 10:18:59 PM UTC-5, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > > > In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > > Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > > > >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
> > > > >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
> > > > >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
> > > > >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
> > > > >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
> > > > >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
> > > > >and for that matter, so could classical music.
> > > > (Hal Heydt)
> > > > If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
> > > > classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
> > > > considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
> > > > music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
> > > > announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
> > > > named John Williams--and also from video games.
> > > >
> > > > Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
> > > > Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
> > > >
> > > > They've also been known to play Sousa.

I read a piece claiming John Williams et al are not just the best film music
composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This emotionality
is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries continue to
support the creation of new music that people find emotionally engaging, whereas
"pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
> > >

> > >
> > Williams was influenced by Erich Korngold.
> >
> > --
> > Kevin R
> And Gustav Holst. The influence of Holst's 'The Planets' is there to be heard in Williams' Star Wars work.

Does anyone agree or disagree with the statement above that classical music has an
"emotionality" that later forms of music either lack or have to a lesser degree? Does anyone
think that "the symphonic form" is or is not a useful term to distinguish classical music
from later forms?

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 12:07:36 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:08:09 -0800 (PST), William Hyde
> <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 11:26:13 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 19:18:57 -0800 (PST), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> >> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> >> In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >> >> >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
> >> >> >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
> >> >> >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
> >> >> >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
> >> >> >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
> >> >> >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
> >> >> >and for that matter, so could classical music.
> >> >> (Hal Heydt)
> >> >> If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
> >> >> classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
> >> >> considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
> >> >> music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
> >> >> announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
> >> >> named John Williams--and also from video games.
> >> >>
> >> >> Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
> >> >> Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
> >> >>
> >> >> They've also been known to play Sousa.
> >> >
> >> >I read a piece claiming John Williams and others are not just the best film music
> >> >composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
> >> >whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
> >> >has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This emotionality
> >> >is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries continue to
> >> >support the creation of new music that people find emotionally engaging, whereas
> >> >"pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
> >> So "pure" that nobody can stand to listen to it, no doubt. Although
> >> the elitists, of course, pretend to like it.
> >
> >But that is always the claim made by musical conservatives. And, fifty years
> >later it is often shown to be wrong.
> That may be, but it still remains that 90% of everything is crap.

Most "classical" music has been filtered through decades of time, if
not centuries, so some stinker written in 1750 is now known
only to scholars. Anything modern, of any style, has yet to go
through this process.

> >In the case of Schonberg, it didn't take that long. "Verklarte Nacht" was condemned
> >as unmusical, then later in his career cited as evidence that he could write good
> >listenable music instead of this new stuff.
> >
> >Richard Reti wrote his "New ideas in chess" in part to defend innovators in music,
> >art, and literature from conservative critics. He pointed out that the new
> >ideas in chess got the same criticism, but in chess there is a more rapid
> >way of establishing whether new ideas are justified - by winning games
> >with them.
> When my brother was in the hospital a few years back, he watched
> movies on TV to pass the time. He noted that a lot of them were films
> he remembered from the 70s or 80s. I told him they were "the New
> Classics".
>
> They were, IOW, now-classic films we had seen in a theater when we
> were younger, as opposed to classic films we had never seen in a
> theater (having been born too late to do so) but had seen on
> late-night TV.
> >That said the most "unmusical' pieces I listen to with any regularity are
> >Messaien's quartet, Prokoviev's second symphony and some
> >Stockhausen. I used to enjoy Webern, but haven't listened to any
> >of his work for decades. The older I get the more conservative
> >my taste seems to become.
> >
> >I have listened to a fair amount of Xenakis, but that's more an exercise
> >in intellect than music. I have no emotional response to his work.

> I bought his /Oresteia/ from MHS, but it didn't make the cut to be
> included in my current mp3 file collection.

Long ago I listened many times to his statistically-inspired pieces,
"metastasis" and "pithoprakta". I have an album of his more
experimental pieces, which makes the former seem like
Hayden.

>
> It's in a box, one of six, containing LPs that either didn't make the
> cut or did but were replaced by a CD. That's /nine linear feet/ of
> LPs, BTW. I'm waiting for enough time to investigate what to do with
> them.

Impressive. I've four feet, five at the most. Eventually, I assume, they'll
be in some sort of jumble sale. As I recorded most of my music,
many have been played only once or twice.

> >The oldest piece in my collection was written circa 600, but the vast bulk
> >of my listening is in the period from Bach to Shostakovitch.
> I might or might not have something that old, presuming it is a part
> of a liturgy or similar context. I have a lot of "variations" on
> various songs; the variations are Medieval, but the songs may be
> older.

I have two short pieces, one probably by Henry VIII, another, on far less
firm ground, said to be by Richard II. All of this, including the above,
is on LP so not currently accessible to me.

William Hyde

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:48:31 PM UTC-5, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:

> > And Gustav Holst. The influence of Holst's 'The Planets' is there to be heard in Williams' Star Wars work.
> Does anyone agree or disagree with the statement above that classical music has an
> "emotionality" that later forms of music either lack or have to a lesser degree?

Verklarte Nacht, again, is a very emotional piece, which is obvious from the first few
bars. Messiaen's "Quartet for the end of time" is also a piece that pulls at my emotions, even
though I do not share the composer's eschatology. At a concert in honour of the latter, four
pieces by his students were played. Two had no noticeable effect on me, except to make
me check my watch. The other two, though, had content.

And let's not forget that Dave Brubeck studied with Darius Milhaud.

That said, I never got much emotional content from Webern, and none from Xenakis. It took a while
for me to find it in Stockhausen (few of whose works I have heard more than once).

Iain Banks seemed to imply that the "Hydrogen Sonata" was intended to be as unlistenable as
it was unplayable.

Does anyone
> think that "the symphonic form" is or is not a useful term to distinguish classical music
> from later forms?

"Sonata form" is a term that is relatively useful, but well known symphonies
vary from a few minutes (early Mozart, Boyce) to an hour and a half (Mahler's third),
and, while they mostly have four movements, can have anywhere from two to eight,
the term doesn't mean much to me.

Though "la Mer" and "Das Lied von der Erde" could easily be called symphonies,
both composers declined to name them so.

And of course most "classical" music isn't symphonic at all.

This post written while listening to Finzi's "Cello Concerto". Romantic? Neo-Classical?
I've no idea. Finzi's influences included Holst, Vaughn Williams, and apples.

William Hyde

On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 14:20:06 -0800 (PST), William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 12:07:36 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:08:09 -0800 (PST), William Hyde
>> <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 11:26:13 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 19:18:57 -0800 (PST), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
>> >> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> >> >> In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> >> >> >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
>> >> >> >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
>> >> >> >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
>> >> >> >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
>> >> >> >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
>> >> >> >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
>> >> >> >and for that matter, so could classical music.
>> >> >> (Hal Heydt)
>> >> >> If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
>> >> >> classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
>> >> >> considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
>> >> >> music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
>> >> >> announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
>> >> >> named John Williams--and also from video games.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
>> >> >> Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> They've also been known to play Sousa.
>> >> >
>> >> >I read a piece claiming John Williams and others are not just the best film music
>> >> >composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
>> >> >whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
>> >> >has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This emotionality
>> >> >is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries continue to
>> >> >support the creation of new music that people find emotionally engaging, whereas
>> >> >"pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
>> >> So "pure" that nobody can stand to listen to it, no doubt. Although
>> >> the elitists, of course, pretend to like it.
>> >
>> >But that is always the claim made by musical conservatives. And, fifty years
>> >later it is often shown to be wrong.
>> That may be, but it still remains that 90% of everything is crap.
>
>Most "classical" music has been filtered through decades of time, if
>not centuries, so some stinker written in 1750 is now known
>only to scholars. Anything modern, of any style, has yet to go
>through this process.
>
>
>> >In the case of Schonberg, it didn't take that long. "Verklarte Nacht" was condemned
>> >as unmusical, then later in his career cited as evidence that he could write good
>> >listenable music instead of this new stuff.
>> >
>> >Richard Reti wrote his "New ideas in chess" in part to defend innovators in music,
>> >art, and literature from conservative critics. He pointed out that the new
>> >ideas in chess got the same criticism, but in chess there is a more rapid
>> >way of establishing whether new ideas are justified - by winning games
>> >with them.
>> When my brother was in the hospital a few years back, he watched
>> movies on TV to pass the time. He noted that a lot of them were films
>> he remembered from the 70s or 80s. I told him they were "the New
>> Classics".
>>
>> They were, IOW, now-classic films we had seen in a theater when we
>> were younger, as opposed to classic films we had never seen in a
>> theater (having been born too late to do so) but had seen on
>> late-night TV.
>> >That said the most "unmusical' pieces I listen to with any regularity are
>> >Messaien's quartet, Prokoviev's second symphony and some
>> >Stockhausen. I used to enjoy Webern, but haven't listened to any
>> >of his work for decades. The older I get the more conservative
>> >my taste seems to become.
>> >
>> >I have listened to a fair amount of Xenakis, but that's more an exercise
>> >in intellect than music. I have no emotional response to his work.
>
>> I bought his /Oresteia/ from MHS, but it didn't make the cut to be
>> included in my current mp3 file collection.
>
>Long ago I listened many times to his statistically-inspired pieces,
>"metastasis" and "pithoprakta". I have an album of his more
>experimental pieces, which makes the former seem like
>Hayden.
>
>
>>
>> It's in a box, one of six, containing LPs that either didn't make the
>> cut or did but were replaced by a CD. That's /nine linear feet/ of
>> LPs, BTW. I'm waiting for enough time to investigate what to do with
>> them.
>
>Impressive. I've four feet, five at the most. Eventually, I assume, they'll
>be in some sort of jumble sale. As I recorded most of my music,
>many have been played only once or twice.

I was working myself up to start calling used-LP stores to see if any
would just come over and take them away (at no cost to me, and no
payment from them), but then the pandemic hit and things shut down for
a bit.

I've taken LPs to used-LP stores. They pick-and-choose, leaving me
with a bunch of Certified Losers. That is what I am trying to avoid.
Along with having to pay someone to move the boxes to (presumably) a
truck and take them somewhere. (1.5 linear feet of LPs is ... quite
heavy.)

I ripped the CDs and used an alternative to the Windows digitization
system to get some /good/ digitizations of the LPs I couldn't replace
(and which are not in those boxes, but upstairs with the souvenirs and
inherited LPs -- life can be /very/ complicated).

>> >The oldest piece in my collection was written circa 600, but the vast bulk
>> >of my listening is in the period from Bach to Shostakovitch.
>> I might or might not have something that old, presuming it is a part
>> of a liturgy or similar context. I have a lot of "variations" on
>> various songs; the variations are Medieval, but the songs may be
>> older.
>
>I have two short pieces, one probably by Henry VIII, another, on far less
>firm ground, said to be by Richard II. All of this, including the above,
>is on LP so not currently accessible to me.

Flanders & Swann suggested Henry VIII wrote "Greensleeves", but they
were probably joking.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 14:47:45 -0800 (PST), William Hyde
<wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 2:48:31 PM UTC-5, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> > And Gustav Holst. The influence of Holst's 'The Planets' is there to be heard in Williams' Star Wars work.
>> Does anyone agree or disagree with the statement above that classical music has an
>> "emotionality" that later forms of music either lack or have to a lesser degree?
>
>Verklarte Nacht, again, is a very emotional piece, which is obvious from the first few
>bars. Messiaen's "Quartet for the end of time" is also a piece that pulls at my emotions, even
>though I do not share the composer's eschatology. At a concert in honour of the latter, four
>pieces by his students were played. Two had no noticeable effect on me, except to make
>me check my watch. The other two, though, had content.
>
>And let's not forget that Dave Brubeck studied with Darius Milhaud.
>
>That said, I never got much emotional content from Webern, and none from Xenakis. It took a while
>for me to find it in Stockhausen (few of whose works I have heard more than once).
>
>Iain Banks seemed to imply that the "Hydrogen Sonata" was intended to be as unlistenable as
>it was unplayable.
>
> Does anyone
>> think that "the symphonic form" is or is not a useful term to distinguish classical music
>> from later forms?
>
> "Sonata form" is a term that is relatively useful, but well known symphonies
>vary from a few minutes (early Mozart, Boyce) to an hour and a half (Mahler's third),
>and, while they mostly have four movements, can have anywhere from two to eight,
>the term doesn't mean much to me.
>
>Though "la Mer" and "Das Lied von der Erde" could easily be called symphonies,
>both composers declined to name them so.
>
>And of course most "classical" music isn't symphonic at all.
>
>This post written while listening to Finzi's "Cello Concerto". Romantic? Neo-Classical?
>I've no idea. Finzi's influences included Holst, Vaughn Williams, and apples.

Are you counting the earlier sinfonias as symphonies? My impression is
that they are generally not considered the same thing.

Like everything else, of course, musicology just gets more and more
hard to talk about as the conversation continues.
--
"In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
development was the disintegration, under Christian
influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
of family right."

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 5:06:47 PM UTC, Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 14:20:06 -0800 (PST), William Hyde
> <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 12:07:36 PM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 14:08:09 -0800 (PST), William Hyde
> >> <wthyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Monday, November 14, 2022 at 11:26:13 AM UTC-5, Paul S Person wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 13 Nov 2022 19:18:57 -0800 (PST), "peterw...@hotmail.com"
> >> >> <peterw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Saturday, November 5, 2022 at 3:38:24 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> >> >> In article <0294beac-be41-47eb...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> >> >> Quadibloc <jsa...@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >> >> >> >If *classical music* can die, surely the idea that science fiction can
> >> >> >> >also die is not an outrageous one. While science fiction is not dead in
> >> >> >> >the sense of being absolutely nonexistent, I would say that it was dying
> >> >> >> >in the period of the New Wave, and today it indeed is dead, living on
> >> >> >> >in movies, in mil-sf, and in various other dying embers.
> >> >> >> >Not being a biological entity, though, science fiction could be reborn,
> >> >> >> >and for that matter, so could classical music.
> >> >> >> (Hal Heydt)
> >> >> >> If the local classical station--KDFC--is anything to go by,
> >> >> >> classical music is gathering in styles that didn't used to be
> >> >> >> considered classical, such as Ragtime. They also play chunks of
> >> >> >> music from films--plenty of John Williams, who they have to
> >> >> >> announce carefully as there is an Australian classical guitarist
> >> >> >> named John Williams--and also from video games.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Not sure if you'd fit it in or not, but this morning they played
> >> >> >> Gershwin's "An American in Paris".
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> They've also been known to play Sousa.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I read a piece claiming John Williams and others are not just the best film music
> >> >> >composers but the best contemporary composers. "Modern" composers, for
> >> >> >whatever reasons, do not use what the author called the symphonic form, which
> >> >> >has great and possibly unique emotional resonance for people. This emotionality
> >> >> >is needed for film, stage, and television scores, so those industries continue to
> >> >> >support the creation of new music that people find emotionally engaging, whereas
> >> >> >"pure" composers have moved on to new forms.
> >> >> So "pure" that nobody can stand to listen to it, no doubt. Although
> >> >> the elitists, of course, pretend to like it.
> >> >
> >> >But that is always the claim made by musical conservatives. And, fifty years
> >> >later it is often shown to be wrong.
> >> That may be, but it still remains that 90% of everything is crap.
> >
> >Most "classical" music has been filtered through decades of time, if
> >not centuries, so some stinker written in 1750 is now known
> >only to scholars. Anything modern, of any style, has yet to go
> >through this process.
> >
> >
> >> >In the case of Schonberg, it didn't take that long. "Verklarte Nacht" was condemned
> >> >as unmusical, then later in his career cited as evidence that he could write good
> >> >listenable music instead of this new stuff.
> >> >
> >> >Richard Reti wrote his "New ideas in chess" in part to defend innovators in music,
> >> >art, and literature from conservative critics. He pointed out that the new
> >> >ideas in chess got the same criticism, but in chess there is a more rapid
> >> >way of establishing whether new ideas are justified - by winning games
> >> >with them.
> >> When my brother was in the hospital a few years back, he watched
> >> movies on TV to pass the time. He noted that a lot of them were films
> >> he remembered from the 70s or 80s. I told him they were "the New
> >> Classics".
> >>
> >> They were, IOW, now-classic films we had seen in a theater when we
> >> were younger, as opposed to classic films we had never seen in a
> >> theater (having been born too late to do so) but had seen on
> >> late-night TV.
> >> >That said the most "unmusical' pieces I listen to with any regularity are
> >> >Messaien's quartet, Prokoviev's second symphony and some
> >> >Stockhausen. I used to enjoy Webern, but haven't listened to any
> >> >of his work for decades. The older I get the more conservative
> >> >my taste seems to become.
> >> >
> >> >I have listened to a fair amount of Xenakis, but that's more an exercise
> >> >in intellect than music. I have no emotional response to his work.
> >
> >> I bought his /Oresteia/ from MHS, but it didn't make the cut to be
> >> included in my current mp3 file collection.
> >
> >Long ago I listened many times to his statistically-inspired pieces,
> >"metastasis" and "pithoprakta". I have an album of his more
> >experimental pieces, which makes the former seem like
> >Hayden.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> It's in a box, one of six, containing LPs that either didn't make the
> >> cut or did but were replaced by a CD. That's /nine linear feet/ of
> >> LPs, BTW. I'm waiting for enough time to investigate what to do with
> >> them.
> >
> >Impressive. I've four feet, five at the most. Eventually, I assume, they'll
> >be in some sort of jumble sale. As I recorded most of my music,
> >many have been played only once or twice.
> I was working myself up to start calling used-LP stores to see if any
> would just come over and take them away (at no cost to me, and no
> payment from them), but then the pandemic hit and things shut down for
> a bit.
>
> I've taken LPs to used-LP stores. They pick-and-choose, leaving me
> with a bunch of Certified Losers. That is what I am trying to avoid.
> Along with having to pay someone to move the boxes to (presumably) a
> truck and take them somewhere. (1.5 linear feet of LPs is ... quite
> heavy.)
>
> I ripped the CDs and used an alternative to the Windows digitization
> system to get some /good/ digitizations of the LPs I couldn't replace
> (and which are not in those boxes, but upstairs with the souvenirs and
> inherited LPs -- life can be /very/ complicated).
> >> >The oldest piece in my collection was written circa 600, but the vast bulk
> >> >of my listening is in the period from Bach to Shostakovitch.
> >> I might or might not have something that old, presuming it is a part
> >> of a liturgy or similar context. I have a lot of "variations" on
> >> various songs; the variations are Medieval, but the songs may be
> >> older.
> >
> >I have two short pieces, one probably by Henry VIII, another, on far less
> >firm ground, said to be by Richard II. All of this, including the above,
> >is on LP so not currently accessible to me.
> Flanders & Swann suggested Henry VIII wrote "Greensleeves", but they
> were probably joking.
> --
> "In this connexion, unquestionably the most significant
> development was the disintegration, under Christian
> influence, of classical conceptions of the family and
> of family right."
They probably were, but I'll just point out that the legend that Henry VIII wrote Greensleves (although unlikely) originated well before Flanders and Swann, and there are other pieces which Henry VIII probably did write.