Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> wrote in
news:7bf74091-931e-40bd-90e9-ed9462d504a8n@googlegroups.com:

> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 5:47:51 PM UTC, Ninapenda
> Jibini wrote:
>> pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in
>> news:rf3inh9r1sblsgkt1...@4ax.com:
>> > Ninapenda Jibini <taus...@gmail.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022
>> > 07:35:08 GMT typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
>> >>pyotr filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote in
>> >>news:bgognhlpiimv6fb02...@4ax.com:
>> >>
>> >>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
>> >>> 07:53:49 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
>> >>> following:
>> >>>>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 8:28:53 AM UTC-7, pyotr
>> >>>>filipivich wrote:
>> >>>>> David Brown <davidn...@gmail.com> on Fri, 18 Nov 2022
>> >>>>> 07:02:21 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
>> >>>>> following:
>> >>>>> >
>> >>>>> >I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a
>> >>>>> >spacecraft ditching in the water. In theory,
>> >>>>> Again, "needs of the plot" but we're assuming the space
>> >>>>> ship can survive reentry.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thought experiment: skipping over the entire "how did it
>> >>>>> get here?" (Alien Space Bats.) would the Lunar Return
>> >>>>> Module have floated? Could it maintain "water tight
>> >>>>> integrity" under pressures it was not designed to handle?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Same would go for "Space Suits".
>> >>>>> > if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would keep
>> >>>>> > water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be
>> >>>>> > a few hundred meters at least. That also means that
>> >>>>> > spacesuits should also work underwater, though that
>> >>>>> > could be more complicated. The big differences would be
>> >>>>> > in thermoregulation, which could actually be better in
>> >>>>> > water.
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>
>> >>>>I checked on a few thing, it is reported that space
>> >>>>capsules can typically float.
>> >>>
>> >>> Space capsules are designed to float.
>> >>
>> >>Unless they fill up with water . . .
>> >
>> > "Details, details ..."
>> >
>> > I recall reading recently that they've recovered Liberty
>> > Bell 7
>> > off the sea bed. There are suspicions that a static discharge
>> > from the helicopter fired the explosive bolts prematurely.
>> > "there was some leakage." I.E., With the hatch off, the
>> > capsule began taking on water, lost buoyancy, and the rest is
>> > in the report. B-)
>> >
>> The movie _The Right Stuff_ was really unfair to Grissom.
>> Christ Kraft, in his autobiography, said that there was never
>> any thought that Grissom was responsible, and ponited out that
>> if there had been, he would have been removed from the flight
>> schedule (which he never was). And literally nobody knows more
>> about it than him. (There were a number of inaccuracies in that
>> movie that were done for . . . dramatic purposes.)
>> --
>> Terry Austin
>>
>> Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider
>> than Lynn:
>> https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
>>
>>
>> "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
>> -- David Bilek
>>
>> Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
> https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/sinking-liberty-bell
> -7-gus-grissoms-near-fatal-mission supports what you said about
> Grissom, but also confirms my memory that the line in the film
> was faithful to the line taken in the book - so the blame lies
> not with a director but with a writer/reporter. Does this then
> count as an early example of fake news? :-)
>
It counts as "Tom Wolfe understood that books, like movies, are far
more about entertainment value than historical accuracy." And
conspiracy theories always sell copy.

As I said, Chris Kraft is the most authoritative source on the
subject, since he's the one who made the final decision.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote in
news:uadinh1qf23j0h0vb3ldk58047hpuorksi@4ax.com:

> Andrew McDowell <mcdowell_ag@sky.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022
> 10:06:20 -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the
> following:
>>
>>> >>> Space capsules are designed to float.
>>> >>
>>> >>Unless they fill up with water . . .
>>> >
>>> > "Details, details ..."
>>> >
>>> > I recall reading recently that they've recovered Liberty
>>> > Bell 7
>>> > off the sea bed. There are suspicions that a static
>>> > discharge from the helicopter fired the explosive bolts
>>> > prematurely. "there was some leakage." I.E., With the hatch
>>> > off, the capsule began taking on water, lost buoyancy, and
>>> > the rest is in the report. B-)
>>> >
>>> The movie _The Right Stuff_ was really unfair to Grissom.
>>> Christ Kraft, in his autobiography, said that there was never
>>> any thought that Grissom was responsible, and ponited out that
>>> if there had been, he would have been removed from the flight
>>> schedule (which he never was). And literally nobody knows more
>>> about it than him. (There were a number of inaccuracies in
>>> that movie that were done for . . . dramatic purposes.)
>
>>https://airandspace.si.edu/stories/editorial/sinking-liberty-bell
>>-7-gus-grissoms-near-fatal-mission supports what you said about
>>Grissom, but also confirms my memory that the line in the film
>>was faithful to the line taken in the book - so the blame lies
>>not with a director but with a writer/reporter. Does this then
>>count as an early example of fake news? :-)
>
> It is an example of the power of Theater to shape people's
> perceptions. Good example, I recall reading an interview with
> Carl Bernstein, talking about the movie "All the President's
> Men" in which Dustin Hoffman played him, and Robert Redford
> played his partner. Talking about the impact the movie had, how
> people would take the movie as the Real History, he was asked
> what color was Woodward hair. He said "light brown".
> Unfortunately for him, Robert Redford's hair is light brown, his
> partner's hair was brown.
> So even an "eye witness to history" can be influenced by
> presentation in a drama.

Human memory is remarkably flexible. The neurological research
suggests that the act of recalling a memory physically rewrites it
in the brain, and things can shift a bit every time. Some of the
research into false confessions is, shall we say, disturbing.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:20:11 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022 07:25:12
> -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> >On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:02:24 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
> >> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> >> I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching
> >> in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would
> >> keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few
> >> hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also
> >> work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big
> >> differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be
> >> better in water.
> >
> >The physics may be completely different between spaceships and submarines,
> >but it is possible that the sociology might be the same: crew confined for many
> >months in a small metal box, their only protection against a deadly environment
> >outside, and with the equipment inside that box a lethal hazard in itself. I have
> >just started "The Silent Deep" about the UK's cold war submarine experience.
> >It starts with a reflection that volunteering for submarine duty is pretty much
> >volunteering for unhealthy working conditions - lack of exposure to sun, and
> >little opportunity for exercise. It reminds me of an off the cuff remark some-
> >where in the Vorkosigan saga in which Miles was intrigued to see an officer
> >with who looked like a workaholic bureaucrat - because the physical
> >deconditioning of the office worker who never ventured outdoors could also
> >be acquired by active service on a warship - at a time when there were many
> >more aspiring warriors than spaceships for them to command.
> In short, those who sail in submarines, or space ships, are at
> some level a wee tad "insane". But that sort of insanity is a
> survival skill in the environment they work in.

"I must confess that my imagination, in spite even of spurring, refuses
to see any sort of submarine doing anything but suffocate its crew and
founder at sea. It must involve physical inconvenience of the most
demoralizing sort simply to be in one for any length of time. A
first-rate man who has been breathing carbonic acid and oil vapour under
a pressure of four atmospheres becomes presently a second-rate man."

H. G. Wells, _Anticipations of the Reaction of Mechanical and Scientific
Progress Upon Human Life and Thought_ (1901) at
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/19229/pg19229.txt

In article <robertaw-66F17B.21544217112022@news.individual.net>,
Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?

I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
Wentworth.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 4:11:17 PM UTC-6, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:20:11 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022 07:25:12
> > -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> > >On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:02:24 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> > >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> > >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> > >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> > >> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> > >> I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching
> > >> in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would
> > >> keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few
> > >> hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also
> > >> work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big
> > >> differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be
> > >> better in water.
> > >
> > >The physics may be completely different between spaceships and submarines,
> > >but it is possible that the sociology might be the same: crew confined for many
> > >months in a small metal box, their only protection against a deadly environment
> > >outside, and with the equipment inside that box a lethal hazard in itself. I have
> > >just started "The Silent Deep" about the UK's cold war submarine experience.
> > >It starts with a reflection that volunteering for submarine duty is pretty much
> > >volunteering for unhealthy working conditions - lack of exposure to sun, and
> > >little opportunity for exercise. It reminds me of an off the cuff remark some-
> > >where in the Vorkosigan saga in which Miles was intrigued to see an officer
> > >with who looked like a workaholic bureaucrat - because the physical
> > >deconditioning of the office worker who never ventured outdoors could also
> > >be acquired by active service on a warship - at a time when there were many
> > >more aspiring warriors than spaceships for them to command.
> > In short, those who sail in submarines, or space ships, are at
> > some level a wee tad "insane". But that sort of insanity is a
> > survival skill in the environment they work in.
> "I must confess that my imagination, in spite even of spurring, refuses
> to see any sort of submarine doing anything but suffocate its crew and
> founder at sea. It must involve physical inconvenience of the most
> demoralizing sort simply to be in one for any length of time. A
> first-rate man who has been breathing carbonic acid and oil vapour under
> a pressure of four atmospheres becomes presently a second-rate man."
>
> H. G. Wells, _Anticipations of the Reaction of Mechanical and Scientific
> Progress Upon Human Life and Thought_ (1901) at
> http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/19229/pg19229.txt

The USS Holland, widely considered to be the first successful submarine,
was built slightly before 1900, and successive refinements of its design
resulted in the vessels that had a major role in World War One just
fifteen years later.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 4:11:17 PM UTC-6, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:20:11 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022 07:25:12
> > -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> > >On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:02:24 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> > >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> > >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> > >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> > >> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> > >> I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching
> > >> in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would
> > >> keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few
> > >> hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also
> > >> work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big
> > >> differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be
> > >> better in water.
> > >
> > >The physics may be completely different between spaceships and submarines,
> > >but it is possible that the sociology might be the same: crew confined for many
> > >months in a small metal box, their only protection against a deadly environment
> > >outside, and with the equipment inside that box a lethal hazard in itself. I have
> > >just started "The Silent Deep" about the UK's cold war submarine experience.
> > >It starts with a reflection that volunteering for submarine duty is pretty much
> > >volunteering for unhealthy working conditions - lack of exposure to sun, and
> > >little opportunity for exercise. It reminds me of an off the cuff remark some-
> > >where in the Vorkosigan saga in which Miles was intrigued to see an officer
> > >with who looked like a workaholic bureaucrat - because the physical
> > >deconditioning of the office worker who never ventured outdoors could also
> > >be acquired by active service on a warship - at a time when there were many
> > >more aspiring warriors than spaceships for them to command.
> > In short, those who sail in submarines, or space ships, are at
> > some level a wee tad "insane". But that sort of insanity is a
> > survival skill in the environment they work in.
> "I must confess that my imagination, in spite even of spurring, refuses
> to see any sort of submarine doing anything but suffocate its crew and
> founder at sea. It must involve physical inconvenience of the most
> demoralizing sort simply to be in one for any length of time. A
> first-rate man who has been breathing carbonic acid and oil vapour under
> a pressure of four atmospheres becomes presently a second-rate man."
>
> H. G. Wells, _Anticipations of the Reaction of Mechanical and Scientific
> Progress Upon Human Life and Thought_ (1901) at
> http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/19229/pg19229.txt

Did H. G. Wells say anything about how a breathable cabin atmosphere
was maintained in the spacecraft in _The First Men in the Moon_?

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 10:46:10 AM UTC-7, peterwezeman@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 4:11:17 PM UTC-6, Ahasuerus wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:20:11 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > > Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022 07:25:12
> > > -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> > > >On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:02:24 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
> > > >> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > > >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> > > >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> > > >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> > > >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> > > >> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> > > >> I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching
> > > >> in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would
> > > >> keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few
> > > >> hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also
> > > >> work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big
> > > >> differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be
> > > >> better in water.
> > > >
> > > >The physics may be completely different between spaceships and submarines,
> > > >but it is possible that the sociology might be the same: crew confined for many
> > > >months in a small metal box, their only protection against a deadly environment
> > > >outside, and with the equipment inside that box a lethal hazard in itself. I have
> > > >just started "The Silent Deep" about the UK's cold war submarine experience.
> > > >It starts with a reflection that volunteering for submarine duty is pretty much
> > > >volunteering for unhealthy working conditions - lack of exposure to sun, and
> > > >little opportunity for exercise. It reminds me of an off the cuff remark some-
> > > >where in the Vorkosigan saga in which Miles was intrigued to see an officer
> > > >with who looked like a workaholic bureaucrat - because the physical
> > > >deconditioning of the office worker who never ventured outdoors could also
> > > >be acquired by active service on a warship - at a time when there were many
> > > >more aspiring warriors than spaceships for them to command.
> > > In short, those who sail in submarines, or space ships, are at
> > > some level a wee tad "insane". But that sort of insanity is a
> > > survival skill in the environment they work in.
> > "I must confess that my imagination, in spite even of spurring, refuses
> > to see any sort of submarine doing anything but suffocate its crew and
> > founder at sea. It must involve physical inconvenience of the most
> > demoralizing sort simply to be in one for any length of time. A
> > first-rate man who has been breathing carbonic acid and oil vapour under
> > a pressure of four atmospheres becomes presently a second-rate man."
> >
> > H. G. Wells, _Anticipations of the Reaction of Mechanical and Scientific
> > Progress Upon Human Life and Thought_ (1901) at
> > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/19229/pg19229.txt
> Did H. G. Wells say anything about how a breathable cabin atmosphere
> was maintained in the spacecraft in _The First Men in the Moon_?
>
> Peter Wezeman
> anti-social Darwinist
It wasn't dealt with specifically, but he gave what is still a reasonably functional design. The most realistic feature regarding life support is that the accommodations are a matter of survival rather than any level of comfort. (Verne's From The Earth To The Moon/ Around the Moon were also credible in that regard.) Another thing easily overlooked is that Cavor's capsule is effectively omnidirectional, with no forward or "up" orientation. As a further consequence, it's really not configured to do anything in an atmosphere except rise or drop. It's of further note that the design was faithfully adapted in the Schneer/ Harryhausen film. The only later cinematic craft to follow many/ most of its parameters was of all things the TIE fighter, which I've meant to give a defense of for some time.

On Sat, 19 Nov 2022 09:20:07 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<phamp@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I recall reading recently that they've recovered Liberty Bell 7
>off the sea bed. There are suspicions that a static discharge from the
>helicopter fired the explosive bolts prematurely. "there was some
>leakage." I.E., With the hatch off, the capsule began taking on
>water, lost buoyancy, and the rest is in the report. B-)

Hadn't heard that - thaks for sharing the news.

Too bad Grissom couldn't have been there...

On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 1:01:10 PM UTC-6, David Brown wrote:
> On Sunday, November 20, 2022 at 10:46:10 AM UTC-7, peterw...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 4:11:17 PM UTC-6, Ahasuerus wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 19, 2022 at 12:20:11 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > > > Andrew McDowell <mcdow...@sky.com> on Sat, 19 Nov 2022 07:25:12
> > > > -0800 (PST) typed in rec.arts.sf.written the following:
> > > > >On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:02:24 PM UTC, David Brown wrote:
> > > > >> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 10:54:48 PM UTC-7, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > > > >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> > > > >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> > > > >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> > > > >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> > > > >> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> > > > >> I commented, the more realistic scenario would be a spacecraft ditching
> > > > >> in the water. In theory, if it was intact enough to hold in air, it would
> > > > >> keep water out down to crush depth, which I believe would be a few
> > > > >> hundred meters at least. That also means that spacesuits should also
> > > > >> work underwater, though that could be more complicated. The big
> > > > >> differences would be in thermoregulation, which could actually be
> > > > >> better in water.
> > > > >
> > > > >The physics may be completely different between spaceships and submarines,
> > > > >but it is possible that the sociology might be the same: crew confined for many
> > > > >months in a small metal box, their only protection against a deadly environment
> > > > >outside, and with the equipment inside that box a lethal hazard in itself. I have
> > > > >just started "The Silent Deep" about the UK's cold war submarine experience.
> > > > >It starts with a reflection that volunteering for submarine duty is pretty much
> > > > >volunteering for unhealthy working conditions - lack of exposure to sun, and
> > > > >little opportunity for exercise. It reminds me of an off the cuff remark some-
> > > > >where in the Vorkosigan saga in which Miles was intrigued to see an officer
> > > > >with who looked like a workaholic bureaucrat - because the physical
> > > > >deconditioning of the office worker who never ventured outdoors could also
> > > > >be acquired by active service on a warship - at a time when there were many
> > > > >more aspiring warriors than spaceships for them to command.
> > > > In short, those who sail in submarines, or space ships, are at
> > > > some level a wee tad "insane". But that sort of insanity is a
> > > > survival skill in the environment they work in.
> > > "I must confess that my imagination, in spite even of spurring, refuses
> > > to see any sort of submarine doing anything but suffocate its crew and
> > > founder at sea. It must involve physical inconvenience of the most
> > > demoralizing sort simply to be in one for any length of time. A
> > > first-rate man who has been breathing carbonic acid and oil vapour under
> > > a pressure of four atmospheres becomes presently a second-rate man."
> > >
> > > H. G. Wells, _Anticipations of the Reaction of Mechanical and Scientific
> > > Progress Upon Human Life and Thought_ (1901) at
> > > http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/19229/pg19229.txt
> > Did H. G. Wells say anything about how a breathable cabin atmosphere
> > was maintained in the spacecraft in _The First Men in the Moon_?
> >
> > Peter Wezeman
> > anti-social Darwinist
> It wasn't dealt with specifically, but he gave what is still a reasonably functional design. The most realistic feature regarding life support is that the accommodations are a matter of survival rather than any level of comfort. (Verne's From The Earth To The Moon/ Around the Moon were also credible in that regard.) Another thing easily overlooked is that Cavor's capsule is effectively omnidirectional, with no forward or "up" orientation. As a further consequence, it's really not configured to do anything in an atmosphere except rise or drop. It's of further note that the design was faithfully adapted in the Schneer/ Harryhausen film. The only later cinematic craft to follow many/ most of its parameters was of all things the TIE fighter, which I've meant to give a defense of for some time.

As the occupants breath out, carbon dioxide tends to build up in the cabin atmosphere. The conventional
way to deal with this is absorb it from the air with one of several chemicals; the Apollo spacecraft used
lithium hydroxide. It is also possible to freeze the carbon dioxide out of the air. Consumed oxygen can be
replaced from compressed oxygen, liquid oxygen, or chemically generated oxygen. Wells' mention of
carbonic acid implies he was aware of the problem of carbon dioxide buildup.. Did Cavor say anything
about it?

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

In article <robertaw-58C3F8.21472219112022@news.individual.net>,
Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

> In article <robertaw-66F17B.21544217112022@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>
> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>
> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
> Wentworth.

And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
titles. Can anybody come up with more?

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

In article <robertaw-186D16.21551120112022@news.individual.net>,
Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>In article <robertaw-58C3F8.21472219112022@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <robertaw-66F17B.21544217112022@news.individual.net>,
>> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>>
>> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
>> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
>> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
>> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>>
>> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
>> Wentworth.
>
>And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
>_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
>titles. Can anybody come up with more?
>

How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
right now.

Also, how about the ship from "Surface Tension"?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> schrieb:

> I recall reading recently that they've recovered Liberty Bell 7
> off the sea bed. There are suspicions that a static discharge from the
> helicopter fired the explosive bolts prematurely. "there was some
> leakage." I.E., With the hatch off, the capsule began taking on
> water, lost buoyancy, and the rest is in the report. B-)

It was exhibited in Germany a few years back, in Bonn, in a space
exhibition. I saw it then.

Those capsules were really tiny. What was that quote in "The Right
Stuff", you don't ride a Mercury capsule, you wear it?

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 1:19:43 AM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <robertaw-186D16...@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8...@news.individual.net>,
> > Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B...@news.individual.net>,
> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >>
> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
> >> Wentworth.
> >
> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
> >
> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
> right now.
>
> Also, how about the ship from "Surface Tension"?
> --
> columbiaclosings.com
> What's not in Columbia anymore..

Space Viking by H. Beam Piper had the space ships hide at the bottom of oceans.

Greg

On 21/11/2022 00.19, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <robertaw-186D16.21551120112022@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:

>> And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
>> _Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
>> titles. Can anybody come up with more?
>
> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
> right now.

In _Triplanetary_, when Costigan and Marsden are on Nevia, they escape
briefly in a life-boat and spend some time in an underwater struggle
against some gigantic sea creature.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Always use apostrophe's and "quotation marks" properly.

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 12:54:48 AM UTC-5, Robert Woodward wrote:
> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>
> --
> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> ã-----------------------------------------------------
> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com

Well, the _Futurama_, episode, "The Deep South" has them taking the Planet Express ship underwater, with the exchange:
Fry: How many atmosphere can this ship withstand?
Farnsworth: Well, it's a spaceship, so I'd say anywhere between zero and one.

--
-Harold Hill

In article <b05b652c-1386-4c12-b3cf-66bbe46ee249n@googlegroups.com>,
Harold Hill <kyle.pellarkosbar@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 12:54:48 AM UTC-5, Robert Woodward wrote:
>> A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
>> What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
>> think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
>> remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>>
>> --
>> "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
>> Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
>> ã-----------------------------------------------------
>> Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
>
>Well, the _Futurama_, episode, "The Deep South" has them taking the
>Planet Express ship underwater, with the exchange:
>Fry: How many atmosphere can this ship withstand?
>Farnsworth: Well, it's a spaceship, so I'd say anywhere between zero and one.
>

Good News Everyone! It's a suppository!
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 1:50:56 PM UTC-5, Harold Hill wrote:
> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 12:54:48 AM UTC-5, Robert Woodward wrote:
> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >
> > --
> > "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
> > Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
> > ã-----------------------------------------------------
> > Robert Woodward robe...@drizzle.com
> Well, the _Futurama_, episode, "The Deep South" has them taking the Planet Express ship underwater, with the exchange:
> Fry: How many atmosphere can this ship withstand?
> Farnsworth: Well, it's a spaceship, so I'd say anywhere between zero and one.

Futurama had a remarkably educated bunch of writers. Three Doctorates (2 in math), 7 Masters, and 50 years of Harvard attendance.
https://cs.appstate.edu/~sjg/futurama/degrees.html

One episode's development resulted in a peer-reviewed, published paper on symmetric group theory:
https://danaernst.com/talk-the-futurama-theorem-and-some-refinements/

pt

In <b1f7d14b-ffd6-43a2-a696-218891822c03n@googlegroups.com> "pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:

[snip]

>Futurama had a remarkably educated bunch of writers. Three Doctorates (2 in=
> math), 7 Masters, and 50 years of Harvard attendance.
>https://cs.appstate.edu/~sjg/futurama/degrees.html

Brings to mind, it does, the late William F. Buckley Jrs.'
comment about people listed in the Boston telephone book
as opposed to the Harvard alumni group...

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

In article <ju0jjqFfkn1U1@mid.individual.net>,
ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:

> In article <robertaw-186D16.21551120112022@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8.21472219112022@news.individual.net>,
> > Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B.21544217112022@news.individual.net>,
> >> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >>
> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
> >> Wentworth.
> >
> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
> >
>
> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
> right now.
>

The problem with a spaceship underwater is the shallow crushing depth
(about 30 feet, I suspect).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
�-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> schrieb:
> In article <ju0jjqFfkn1U1@mid.individual.net>,
> ted@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>
>> In article <robertaw-186D16.21551120112022@news.individual.net>,
>> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8.21472219112022@news.individual.net>,
>> > Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B.21544217112022@news.individual.net>,
>> >> Robert Woodward <robertaw@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
>> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
>> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
>> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>> >>
>> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
>> >> Wentworth.
>> >
>> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
>> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
>> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
>> >
>>
>> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
>> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
>> right now.
>>
>
> The problem with a spaceship underwater is the shallow crushing depth
> (about 30 feet, I suspect).

It is much easier to build something that will hold pressure
from the inside than pressure from the outside. Pressure from
the inside will just put the structure under tensile strength.
Pressure from the outside will lead to compressive stress and,
most importantly, a danger of buckling. Failing to ventilate
storage tanks when emptying them has led to large structural
failues.

There is usually no need to design a spaceship against buckling,
so I would expect it to fail at a rather low pressure difference.

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 12:19:43 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <robertaw-186D16...@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8...@news.individual.net>,
> > Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B...@news.individual.net>,
> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >>
> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
> >> Wentworth.
> >
> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
> >
> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
> right now.
>
From the footnotes in Edward E. Smith's novel _Galactic Patrol_:

In the "big teardrops"—cruisers and battleships—the driving force is
always directed upward, along the geometrical axis of the ship, and
the artificial gravity is always downward along that same line. Thus,
throughout any possible maneuvering, free or inert, "down" and "up"
have the same significance as within any Earthly structure.

These vessels are ordinarily landed only in special docks, but in
emergencies can be landed almost anywhere, sharp stern down,
as their immense weight drives them deep enough into even the
hardest ground to keep them upright. They sink in water, but are
readily maneuverable, even under water.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 2:38:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> schrieb:
> > In article <ju0jjq...@mid.individual.net>,
> > t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
> >
> >> In article <robertaw-186D16...@news.individual.net>,
> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8...@news.individual.net>,
> >> > Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B...@news.individual.net>,
> >> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> >> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> >> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> >> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >> >>
> >> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
> >> >> Wentworth.
> >> >
> >> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
> >> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
> >> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
> >> >
> >>
> >> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
> >> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
> >> right now.
> >>
> >
> > The problem with a spaceship underwater is the shallow crushing depth
> > (about 30 feet, I suspect).
> It is much easier to build something that will hold pressure
> from the inside than pressure from the outside. Pressure from
> the inside will just put the structure under tensile strength.
> Pressure from the outside will lead to compressive stress and,
> most importantly, a danger of buckling. Failing to ventilate
> storage tanks when emptying them has led to large structural
> failues.
>
> There is usually no need to design a spaceship against buckling,
> so I would expect it to fail at a rather low pressure difference.

Some rockets rely on internal pressurization for their structural
integrity, and *will* buckle under merely their own weight if its
removed.

SFW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imkdz63agHY

pt

"pete...@gmail.com" <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tuesday, November 22, 2022 at 2:38:15 AM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
>> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> schrieb:
>> > In article <ju0jjq...@mid.individual.net>,
>> > t...@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>) wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article <robertaw-186D16...@news.individual.net>,
>> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8...@news.individual.net>,
>> >> > Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B...@news.individual.net>,
>> >> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
>> >> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
>> >> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
>> >> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
>> >> >> Wentworth.
>> >> >
>> >> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
>> >> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
>> >> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
>> >> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
>> >> right now.
>> >>
>> >
>> > The problem with a spaceship underwater is the shallow crushing depth
>> > (about 30 feet, I suspect).
>> It is much easier to build something that will hold pressure
>> from the inside than pressure from the outside. Pressure from
>> the inside will just put the structure under tensile strength.
>> Pressure from the outside will lead to compressive stress and,
>> most importantly, a danger of buckling. Failing to ventilate
>> storage tanks when emptying them has led to large structural
>> failues.
>>
>> There is usually no need to design a spaceship against buckling,
>> so I would expect it to fail at a rather low pressure difference.
>
>Some rockets rely on internal pressurization for their structural
>integrity, and *will* buckle under merely their own weight if its
>removed.
>
>SFW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imkdz63agHY

The mythbusters episode with the railroad tank car filled
with steam and suddenly cooled was very educational.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpWeU2fvFGs

On Monday, November 21, 2022 at 12:19:43 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <robertaw-186D16...@news.individual.net>,
> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >In article <robertaw-58C3F8...@news.individual.net>,
> > Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <robertaw-66F17B...@news.individual.net>,
> >> Robert Woodward <robe...@drizzle.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > A recent thread mentions this happening in John Ringo's _Vorpal Blade_.
> >> > What other titles have submarines in space? The only title that I can
> >> > think of offhand is Harry Harrison's _The Daleth Effect_, but I vaguely
> >> > remember that there are more. What other titles can people think of?
> >>
> >> I remembered another one; _The Course of Empire_ by Eric Flint and K. D.
> >> Wentworth.
> >
> >And today, a third; _Gilpin's Space_ by Reginald Bretnor. Together with
> >_Vorpal Blade_ and _The Gateway Special_ by Jerry Oltion, that makes 5
> >titles. Can anybody come up with more?
> >
> How about if a spaceship can operate under water? That probably gets
> a few more titles at least -- though I am straining to think of some
> right now.
>
From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
of that organization. As in most science fiction stories from that period
some of the planetary science is obsolete, and later editions included
a brief preface by Asimov describing the present state of knowledge and
the evidence for this. The series has some features in common with
_The Caves of Steel_, such as positronic robots and an Earth-Sirius
rivalry, but also significant differences, such as the fact that Earth
science is generally more advanced than that of the spacers.

In _Lucky Starr and the Oceans of Venus_ that planet is completely covered
in water, with no continents or islands (shouldn't the book then be called
_Lucky Starr and the Ocean of Venus_?) Humans live in domed cities on
the ocean floor with no conventional spaceports. Commerce is via orbital
space stations. Special shuttles depart from airlocks in the cities, ascend
as submarines to the surface, penetrate the mat of floating seaweed, climb
through the atmosphere, and accelerate to orbit.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

In <09ebeba6-252f-47d2-8595-1e00624a20d6n@googlegroups.com> "peterwezeman@hotmail.com" <peterwezeman@hotmail.com> writes:

[snip]

>From 1952-1958 Isaac Asimov wrote a series of YA novels featuring the
>adventures of David "Lucky Starr", ace trouble shooter for the Council
>of Science that governs the Solarian system and the youngest member
>of that organization.

I thought those novels were by Paul French...

--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
dannyb@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]