On 22/05/2022 11:41 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 22/05/2022 9:56 am, John_H wrote:
>> Noddy wrote:
>
>>>> Yep, thought I was reading the history of the 2000, 2.5 PI and 2500C.
>>>> The 2500S doesn't belong in that group, which is probably why it went
>>>> under my radar.  The former were STI / Leyland Motors models, the
>>>> 2500S was British Leyland   The bit you've quoted is certainly wrong
>>>> and merely demonstrates that if you google hard enough you can prove,
>>>> or disprove, anything
>>>
>>> Right. So I've seen that comment echoed in a couple of places now, but
>>> according to you they're all wrong and you're right.
>>
>> What comment was that?
>
> The "comment" that said that the 2500pi was replaced by the carburetted
> 2500S. I've shown a link to a cite that mentioned that here, but I've
> seen it mentioned in a number of places now.
>
>>>> Last PI was sold here in 1974 whereas the 2500S was released in  1977
>>>> which hardly makes it a replacement for the 2.5 PI.
>>>
>>> Perhaps not in this country, but clearly in other parts of the world and
>>> there may have been external forces that determined that.
>>
>> I might be wrong about the release date as the model didn't interest
>> me in the slightest since it was a British Leyland model which
>> separated it from the pre-existing Triumph range.
>
> Fair enough.
>
>>>> PIs were in production for 7 years so it must've taken an awful long
>>>> time to work out they were troublesome and expensive to produce.
>>>
>>> That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest either. Jaguar made the XJ
>>> series for many years, and for it's entire life it was an unreliable
>>> heap of shit. The fact that they kept making it anyway tells you a lot
>>> about the attitude of the British, and their unwillingness to accept
>>> that they were wrong.
>>
>>  From 1969 until 1975 Jaguar were a division of BLMC who turned a lot
>> of cars to shit before they went bust in 1975 and were nationalised by
>> the British government.  After which Jaguar was sold to Ford who
>> probably made them even shittier. They actually made some great cars
>> back when they were an independent company.
>
> They did *some* things right in my opinion. Their suspension and brake
> systems were great, and they had the sense to never play around with
> automatic transmissions instead leaving that task for those who had
> experience and knowledge.
>
>>>> Only '74 model I had any experience with was a TR6 that was
>>>> dramatically
>>>> detuned compared to previous models, which supported the story it was
>>>> an emission issue.
>>
>>> As I said, given the troublesome nature of the Lucas system in a street
>>> car capacity, I'm convinced that the "emissions" story was nothing but a
>>> face saving exit strategy for Triumph. Not unless you're of the belief
>>> that they were better at tuning carburetors than they were fuel
>>> injection systems :)
>>
>> Most mechanics were and plenty of 'em weren't very good at tuning
>> carbies either... fortunately most carbs of the era only had idling
>> adjustments.  Formula 1 mechanics are obviously a smarter lot....
>> http://www.lucasinjection.com/1973_lucas_ad2.jpg
>
> I don't imagine most F1 mechanics got the gig because they were idiots.
> That said, there is a world of difference between tuning an engine for
> flat out competition use and regular everyday street driving.
>
> The Lucas system worked exceptionally well on race engines that spent
> most of their time above 6000rpm, but on a basic everyday street driver
> it was apparently less than stellar.
>
>> Regarding emissions. In response to Californian emission standards
>> already in effect STI marketed a TR250 model in the US in 1968, which
>> was a carburetted version of the TR5. It was around 30% down on power.
>> The TR6 that followed underwent modifications to the throttle bodies
>> and was successfully marketed in the US.  Subsequent regulations in
>> the US and elsewhere would've certainly resulted in non compliance as
>> it didn't have the same degree of mixture control as compliant
>> carburetted cars of that era.  Nor did it have any compensation for
>> altitude or atmospheric conditions as do modern EFI systems which are
>> far, far more complicated.
>>
>> In fact it was a well proven system having been originally designed
>> for the Rolls-Royce Merlln around the end of WW2 (AFAIK none fell out
>> of the sky as a consequence).  Other than being a radical departure
>> from carburetors it was a relatively simple, performance orientated,
>> system used on numerous competition engines.  It was still in
>> production in the 1980s until EFI caught up with it.
>
> I'm aware of it's success in competition roles, and if the truth be told
> it would be unjust to declare it as anything other than astonishingly
> successful on the race track. But as I've mentioned before just because
> something has an illustrious career in a competition role doesn't
> automatically mean that it will translate well onto the street.
>
> Triumph apparently learned that lesson well, and the fact that no one
> else seemed interesting in trying for themselves seems to confirm that.
>
>
>>>> Last model sold as a Triumph was a rebadged Honda shortly before BL
>>>> dropped the name which now belongs to BMW AFAIK.  Jaguar and Rover
>>>> went to Tata (India), MG went to China and a number of others went to
>>>> God.
>>
>>> Was it based on a Honda Integra by any chance? Can't say I'm familiar
>>> with the Honda based Triumph, but I know Rover did a variant of the late
>>> 80's Integra that was sold here in Australia with the only appreciable
>>> difference being that the Rover "Integra" was a 4 door body that was
>>> unique to them. I'm not sure if it was made by Honda as a "rebadge" or
>>> if Rover made it themselves, but apart from having two extra doors it
>>> was a Honda Integra for all intents and purposes.
>>
>> No idea, having no interest in anything British post 1975.
>
> Fair enough. The car I'm talking about was this:
>
>> https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/rover/rover-416i-vitesse/
>

That's not the Rover rebadged Honda, that's a Rover with Honda bits.