In message <u2ja64$2vt5i$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:39:00 on Sat, 29 Apr
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>
>>>>>  And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>>
>>>>>  I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>> had  to say that to)".
>>>>
>>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>>>
>>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
>>> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
>>> paper ticket to complete journey.
>>
>> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>
>What you need is an intelligent contactless device, something with GPS that
>knows where it is and a radio Internet link to contact the TFL database. It
>might also be useful for other things…

GPS reception at City Thameslink might not be brilliant, Just sayin'.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u2ja64$2vt5i$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:39:00 on Sat, 29 Apr
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>>
>>>>>>  And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>>>
>>>>>>  I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>>> had  to say that to)".
>>>>>
>>>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>>>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>>>>
>>>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
>>>> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
>>>> paper ticket to complete journey.
>>>
>>> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>>> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>>
>> What you need is an intelligent contactless device, something with GPS that
>> knows where it is and a radio Internet link to contact the TFL database. It
>> might also be useful for other things…
>
> GPS reception at City Thameslink might not be brilliant, Just sayin'.

https://www.gps-repeaters.com/

First – let’s define a GPS Repeater System: A repeater is a device that
relays GPS signals to any indoor location that isn’t normally reachable.

There is an outdoor antenna to pick up the GPS satellite signals from your
rooftop, and a coaxial cable that carries the signal inside the building to
a small, mains-powered, repeater unit.

The repeater unit re-radiates the GPS signal inside the building.

In message <u2mh74$3mhg5$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:57:24 on Sun, 30 Apr
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 29 Apr 2023 at 5:39:00 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 29.04.23 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>>>> had to say that to)".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>>>>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
>>>>> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
>>>>> paper ticket to complete journey.
>>>>
>>>> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>>>> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>>>
>>> What you need is an intelligent contactless device, something with GPS that
>>> knows where it is and a radio Internet link to contact the TFL database. It
>>> might also be useful for other things…
>>
>> It wonder if you could use it to receive alerts sent by the authorities in
>> emergencies? That would be handy ;).
>>
>> (Sorry!)
>
>Perhaps you could get it to display timetable information?

In this extract from a documentary, <https://youtu.be/SAC4a0ZKxpA>
filmed around Easter 1993, one of the applications I had in mind for the
connected-device was to be able to receive live-departure information so
you'd know whether it was safe to drive to the station.

It would be six years before that was secretly trialled (on GNER). By
which time proprietary packet radio had not made it beyond niche
applications (aircraft dispatchers[1] and mobile ATMs for events like
pop concerts being two) thus consumers had to wait until after the
Millennium for mobile data to converge with their phones, in the guise
of <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service>

Airline timetable information had of course been available on Prestel
since the miid-80's. Travel agents being one of the main users of that
system.

[1] Although the lady here is still using a clipboard and walkie-talkie.
https://youtu.be/G1AKfShgIfU?t=274
--
Roland Perry

On 1/5/23 16:20, Tweed wrote:

> https://www.gps-repeaters.com/
>
> First – let’s define a GPS Repeater System: A repeater is a device that
> relays GPS signals to any indoor location that isn’t normally reachable.
>
> There is an outdoor antenna to pick up the GPS satellite signals from your
> rooftop, and a coaxial cable that carries the signal inside the building to
> a small, mains-powered, repeater unit.
>
> The repeater unit re-radiates the GPS signal inside the building.

There is one in my office (and another in our 'lab') so that equipment
with GPS receivers can be tested indoors.

When our lab moved to a new building it took a couple of months and use
of a spectrum analyser to get the repeater to work properly. (Found to
be receiving it's own signal. Antenna locations had to be finessed).

Some phones get some what amusing (depending on your point of view)
location errors when they see gps satellites via the repeater and
satellites through the window.
We were also getting errors with testing devices outside where the
signal from the repeater would escape the building. Depending on the
test they were doing we would have to disconnect the power to the indoor
repeater.

The delay the coax feed line and repeater electronics adds messes up the
maths, it doesn't take a lot.

GPS repeaters contain black magic.

A modern 'device' can locate itself quite accurately with out GPS using
a combination of mobile phone , WiFi and bluetooth signals. No
satellites needed, just enough radio transmitters with known locations.

On 30/04/2023 20:57, Tweed wrote:
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 29 Apr 2023 at 5:39:00 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 29.04.23 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>>>> had to say that to)".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>>>>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
>>>>> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
>>>>> paper ticket to complete journey.
>>>>
>>>> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>>>> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>>>>
>>>> Robin
>>>>
>>>
>>> What you need is an intelligent contactless device, something with GPS that
>>> knows where it is and a radio Internet link to contact the TFL database. It
>>> might also be useful for other things…
>>
>> It wonder if you could use it to receive alerts sent by the authorities in
>> emergencies? That would be handy ;).
>>
>> (Sorry!)
>>
>
> Perhaps you could get it to display timetable information?
>

This is all getting very silly! No one is going to come up with
something that useful.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <u2nlo5$1sgr$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:20:53 on Mon, 1 May
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u2ja64$2vt5i$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:39:00 on Sat, 29 Apr
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>>>> had  to say that to)".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>>>>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
>>>>> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
>>>>> paper ticket to complete journey.
>>>>
>>>> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>>>> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>>>
>>> What you need is an intelligent contactless device, something with GPS that
>>> knows where it is and a radio Internet link to contact the TFL database. It
>>> might also be useful for other things…
>>
>> GPS reception at City Thameslink might not be brilliant, Just sayin'.
>
>https://www.gps-repeaters.com/
>
>First – let’s define a GPS Repeater System: A repeater is a device that
>relays GPS signals to any indoor location that isn’t normally reachable.
>
>There is an outdoor antenna to pick up the GPS satellite signals from your
>rooftop, and a coaxial cable that carries the signal inside the building to
>a small, mains-powered, repeater unit.
>
>The repeater unit re-radiates the GPS signal inside the building.

The video there would seem to have a number of false premises. Why are
call-centre operatives "blind" to the location of their assets, simply
because the call-centre has no GPS coverage. This appears to be
repeating the journalistic misconception that the satellites broadcast
the positions of enrolled users to the general public, whereas they are
just beacons.

Meanwhile, any first responders who are in a GPS not-spot building will
have their position available by other means, such as their wifi SSID
being a different kind of beacon, and the moment they step outdoors,
their device will start using GPS (if it's vital that the call centre
immediately knows their position to the nearest couple of feet even
before their vehicle has left the premises).

I've got a tracker on the desk beside me (one of the couple of dozen
gadgets which has turned me into a battery-recharging-slave) and my
phone app reports it knows its position from wifi, to within about 20ft.
(In other words, it shows my address, not next door or across the
street).

My other phone (which has the execrable "What Three Words" installed)
has its position, also on my desk, within the correct one of their
squares, so must be getting sufficient in-building GPS (because my wifi
hotspot is at least two squares away the other end of the house).

Meanwhile, where Google Location Services once reported I'd been on a
day trip to London via KGX, LST and SSD:

<http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Stansted-Ipswich%20Teleporter.jpg>

Which might go some way to explaining why Greater Anglia abandoned [or
did they even start it, having announced it] their pilot programme to
charge people not on issued tickets, but by reverse engineering where
they imagined they'd been that day. And what's the price of a day-return
on their teleporter, anyway?
--
Roland Perry

In message <u2noc9$26n8$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:05:45 on Mon, 1 May
2023, Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> remarked:
>On 1/5/23 16:20, Tweed wrote:
>
>> https://www.gps-repeaters.com/
>> First – let’s define a GPS Repeater System: A repeater is a
>>device that
>> relays GPS signals to any indoor location that isn’t normally reachable.
>> There is an outdoor antenna to pick up the GPS satellite signals
>>from your
>> rooftop, and a coaxial cable that carries the signal inside the building to
>> a small, mains-powered, repeater unit.
>> The repeater unit re-radiates the GPS signal inside the building.
>
>There is one in my office (and another in our 'lab') so that equipment
>with GPS receivers can be tested indoors.
>
>When our lab moved to a new building it took a couple of months and use
>of a spectrum analyser to get the repeater to work properly. (Found to
>be receiving it's own signal. Antenna locations had to be finessed).
>
>Some phones get some what amusing (depending on your point of view)
>location errors when they see gps satellites via the repeater and
>satellites through the window.

Yes, they would (see below).

>We were also getting errors with testing devices outside where the
>signal from the repeater would escape the building. Depending on the
>test they were doing we would have to disconnect the power to the
>indoor repeater.
>
>The delay the coax feed line and repeater electronics adds messes up
>the maths, it doesn't take a lot.

If all satellite signals are delayed exactly the same amount, it should
be OK, because the GPS receiver is computing its position from the
relative delay between satellites.

>GPS repeaters contain black magic.
>
>A modern 'device' can locate itself quite accurately with out GPS using
>a combination of mobile phone , WiFi and bluetooth signals. No
>satellites needed, just enough radio transmitters with known locations.

And then some bright spark will put a wifi hotspot on a fire engine[1],
and drive it around confusing everyone. Several years ago someone here
reported what it did to people attending the Chelsea Flower Show.

[1] Or more realistically a mobile command post.
--
Roland Perry

In message <kq5q4idj0pbd9dqsfmbkoa8636u0nl8bbn@4ax.com>, at 14:12:11 on
Sat, 29 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 07:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <u29isb$11ldd$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:04 on Tue, 25 Apr
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>> On 19/04/2023 12:18, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are
>>>>>significantly
>>>>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>>>> off using PayG.
>>>>
>>>> I'm afraid that is simply not true for those travelling in from outside
>>>> London. When I travel to several different stations within in London
>>>> starting in Bedfordshire, if I have time I compare the "super-off-peak
>>>> day-return to London Thameslink" fare plus the Oyster cap, with the
>>>> off-peak Travelcard fare. They are only occasionally the same,
>>>> sometimes the Travelcard is cheaper then the rail + Oyster cap, sometimes
>>>> dearer (depending on my starting station and what day of the week it is)
>>>> and the difference can be as much as a pound. I've rechecked this after
>>>> all the recent fare increases, and the conclusion hasn't changed.
>>>
>>>I think you must be in the tiny, tiny minority capable and willing to do
>>>such calculations.
>>>
>>>> If they abolish the Travelcard many of us will have to pay more. Not a
>>>> huge amount more, but a bit.
>>>>
>>>> Of course TfL gets no votes from us, nor from all the foreign tourists
>>>> who will feel the pain, so they feel free to put up the prices.
>>>>That's life, I guess.
>>>
>>>Yes. TfL needs more money, and it would like most of the extra funding to
>>>come from non-Londoners using London's subsidised public transport.
>>
>>Subsidised by taxpayers, not all of whom live in London.
>
>TfL broke even on operating costs before the pandemic, so there was no
>government subsidy.

Only for the infrastructure costs, which are substantial. Remind me,
what was the final bill for Crossrail? And even then TfL only balanced
the books by doing a sale and leaseback of the Lizard rolling stock.

>Lockdowns prevented that, but as numbers return, TfL is becoming less
>reliant on government subsidy that's likely to finish next year.

What I'd like to see finish is this endless tinkering with Travelcards,
delays introducing capping and railcards in the CCC back office, and so
on.
--
Roland Perry

On 01.05.23 07:58, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u2iops$2t81u$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:20 on Sat, 29 Apr
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 29.04.23 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward
>>>>>> TfL
>>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators
>>>>>> downstairs at
>>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>
>>>>>  And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>>
>>>>>  I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>> had  to say that to)".
>>>>
>>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City
>>>> Thameslink, London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either
>>>> direction.
>
>>>  But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day
>>> on  contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to
>>> a  paper ticket to complete journey.
>>
>> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>
> If you've been traveling around London on the tube all day, and now need
> to get a train home, topologically City Thameslink is one of the worst
> places to have to arrange to travel through.

Correct. The sensible places to travel through (if you're heading to
Brighton) are London Bridge or Victoria. In both cases, you'll be
passing through two sets of gate lines, one LU and one NR, at which the
transition from Oyster to NR paper tickets is dealt with seamlessly. In
neither case would on-platform oyster validators play any role. For a
certain set of locations, Blackfriars might be useful which, again,
involves passing through two sets of gate lines.

> From a fares point of view, it's unlikely to be optimal for switching
> between TfL-contactless and a final-leg National Rail paper ticket.

For south of London on NR, the "London Terminals" includes Victoria,
London Brdige, Blackfriars and City Thameslink. For TfL they are all in
zone 1. It therefore makes absolutely no difference from a fares point
of view.

Robin

On 01/05/2023 07:00, Roland Perry wrote:
> GPS reception at City Thameslink might not be brilliant, Just sayin'.

But there is good WiFi there, unlike a lot of other Thameslink stations, that should give your device some rough positional information shouldn't it?

And come to think if it, now that door-opening is said to be controlled by GPS (at least that's the excuse they use when the doors unexpectedly won't open for a couple of minutes at say St.Pancras) don't they have GPS repeaters installed at all underground or semi-underground ones? If so is that a signal that a public GPS gizmo could use?

--
Clive Page

On 01/05/2023 08:42, Bob wrote:
> Correct. The sensible places to travel through (if you're heading to Brighton) are London Bridge or Victoria. In both cases, you'll be passing through two sets of gate lines, one LU and one NR, at which the transition from Oyster to NR paper tickets is dealt with seamlessly. In neither case would on-platform oyster validators play any role. For a certain set of locations, Blackfriars might be useful which, again, involves passing through two sets of gate lines.

Well I have changed from paper ticket to Oyster at Blackfriars to get a train on the Sevenoaks line (and complained about the absence of Oyster validators there, to no avail). "No demand, I keep telling people that". If you get off a southbound Thameslink and use the northern platform interchange you do indeed go through two gatelines, but if you use the southern stairs to go down and up, there are no gatelines at all. Later in the day there is a cross-platform interchange between the terminating trains from Sevenoaks (etc) and northbound Thameslink, again no gatelines, nor Oyster validators. The situation is, frankly, a mess.

--
Clive Page

In message <kbc13dFjmbkU2@mid.individual.net>, at 09:48:44 on Tue, 2 May
2023, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> remarked:
>On 01/05/2023 07:00, Roland Perry wrote:

>> GPS reception at City Thameslink might not be brilliant, Just sayin'.
>
>But there is good WiFi there, unlike a lot of other Thameslink
>stations, that should give your device some rough positional
>information shouldn't it?

My device, yes; but the question is whether there's some organisation
prepared to listen to that, to do things like train ticketing.

>And come to think if it, now that door-opening is said to be controlled
>by GPS (at least that's the excuse they use when the doors unexpectedly
>won't open for a couple of minutes at say St.Pancras) don't they have
>GPS repeaters installed at all underground or semi-underground ones? If
>so is that a signal that a public GPS gizmo could use?

When I'm there next, I'll check. (Have the app, will travel). The doors
thing is much more "what station is the train at" than "how far along
the platform are we", or even "which platform are we at". It's not
necessarily the most appropriate sledgehammer to crack that nut.
--
Roland Perry