On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:53:00 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <u20d7i$381v5$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:34:26 on Sat, 22 Apr
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u20an5$37l8u$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:33 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 22.04.23 11:01, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>contactless card all the time, or can one associate
>>>>>>>>>>>>multiple cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a
>>>>>>>>>>>single Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big
>>>>>>>>>>>problem.  I think this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>>>>
>>>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now
>>>>> be Reading!
>>>>
>>>> In due course, it will be Old Oak Common.
>>>
>>> Which city is that in? (If we add that to the question, which was my
>>> original intention).
>>
>>You need to clarify what you meant by 'two cities' — I thought you were
>>simply reminding people that the origin and destination were in two
>>different cities (contrary to what most Americans would assume).
>
>It was meant to be the change point was a choice between two different
>cities.
>
>>The question itself had no stipulations about where the change point
>>could be.
>
>Which is why it's being clarified.

There's something wrong with a pub quiz question that needs multiple clarifications even to a sobre, knowledgeable
audience.

>
>>And OOC and Liverpool St are in any case not in the same city.
>
>LST just scraps inside City of London.

It is indeed in EC2, in the City of London. As the City is so small, any address inside it is, by definition, close to
the boundary.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u20db4$382gh$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:20 on Sat, 22 Apr
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u207q2$378hj$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:54 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>> contactless card all the time, or can one associate multiple
>>>>>>>>>>> cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single
>>>>>>>>>> Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think
>>>>>>>>>> this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>
>>> Just outside the City of Westminster, unfortunately.
>>>
>>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>>>> Reading!
>>>
>>> Did Reading get its city status?
>>
>> Apparently not.
>>
>> So you're now saying that the interchange station must be in a *third*
>> city? How does that relate to, "Two cities of course"?
>
> Two cities to change trains in.

Obviously your insistence that the change *must* be in a city means that
Ely has to be the mandatory answer, and Norwich is the consequence.

In message <24j74i9uqv331mm0ajtql5aakodtvlfcs0@4ax.com>, at 13:07:38 on
Sat, 22 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:53:00 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <u20d7i$381v5$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:34:26 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u20an5$37l8u$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:33 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 22.04.23 11:01, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21
>>>>>>>>Apr 2023,
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>contactless card all the time, or can one associate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>multiple cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a
>>>>>>>>>>>>single Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big
>>>>>>>>>>>>problem.  I think this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now
>>>>>> be Reading!
>>>>>
>>>>> In due course, it will be Old Oak Common.
>>>>
>>>> Which city is that in? (If we add that to the question, which was my
>>>> original intention).
>>>
>>>You need to clarify what you meant by 'two cities' — I thought you were
>>>simply reminding people that the origin and destination were in two
>>>different cities (contrary to what most Americans would assume).
>>
>>It was meant to be the change point was a choice between two different
>>cities.
>>
>>>The question itself had no stipulations about where the change point
>>>could be.
>>
>>Which is why it's being clarified.
>
>There's something wrong with a pub quiz question that needs multiple
>clarifications even to a sobre, knowledgeable
>audience.

What was wrong is that I drafted it in a hurry, which was a mistake
given that it was to be expected you'd find something to quibble about
and then beat it to death.

>>>And OOC and Liverpool St are in any case not in the same city.
>>
>>LST just scrapes inside City of London.
>
>It is indeed in EC2, in the City of London. As the City is so small,
>any address inside it is, by definition, close to the boundary.

Only one donut of properties (such as LST) are actually just-inside the
boundary.
--
Roland Perry

In message <nsi74ihlsjntl2f80q8aka76m7bjuu905n@4ax.com>, at 12:59:35 on
Sat, 22 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:54:07 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <u20db4$382gh$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:20 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u207q2$378hj$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:54 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>contactless card all the time, or can one associate multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has the
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single
>>>>>>>>>>> Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think
>>>>>>>>>>> this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>>
>>>> Just outside the City of Westminster, unfortunately.
>>>>
>>>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>>>>> Reading!
>>>>
>>>> Did Reading get its city status?
>>>
>>>Apparently not.
>>>
>>>So you're now saying that the interchange station must be in a *third*
>>>city? How does that relate to, "Two cities of course"?
>>
>>Two cities to change trains in.
>
>Your original question:
>
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>
>> Two cities of course.
>
>How do you change trains once in two cities?

I presume you are being deliberately obtuse.

The answer to the question is either of two cities.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u20sm0$3aga7$5@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:08 on Sat, 22 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u20db4$382gh$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:20 on Sat, 22 Apr
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u207q2$378hj$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:54 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> contactless card all the time, or can one associate multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>> cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has the
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single
>>>>>>>>>>> Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think
>>>>>>>>>>> this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>>
>>>> Just outside the City of Westminster, unfortunately.
>>>>
>>>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>>>>> Reading!
>>>>
>>>> Did Reading get its city status?
>>>
>>> Apparently not.
>>>
>>> So you're now saying that the interchange station must be in a *third*
>>> city? How does that relate to, "Two cities of course"?
>>
>> Two cities to change trains in.
>
>Obviously your insistence that the change *must* be in a city means that
>Ely has to be the mandatory answer, and Norwich is the consequence.

Either answer is correct, although before fairly recent changes[1] to
the routing guide, I think only the latter required two tickets. Now
they both do.

And of course in the current timetable you can't do the not-Norwich
route in one day (in either direction).

[1] Earlier versions in effect meant that as long as you were starting
sufficiently far away, on trips to London which passed through
Peterborough you could complete them via Huntingdon to Kings Cross,
or via Cambridge to LST (or indeed via Cambridge to KGX). The thing
that surprised many was you often couldn't travel via Peterborough
to Cambridge with a change at Hitchin/Stevenage, rather than being
compelled to go via Ely; even on an "Any Permitted" rather than a
specifically [cheaper if available] "via Ely" ticket.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <nsi74ihlsjntl2f80q8aka76m7bjuu905n@4ax.com>, at 12:59:35 on
> Sat, 22 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:54:07 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <u20db4$382gh$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:20 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <u207q2$378hj$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:54 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>> contactless card all the time, or can one associate multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single
>>>>>>>>>>>> Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think
>>>>>>>>>>>> this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just outside the City of Westminster, unfortunately.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>>>>>> Reading!
>>>>>
>>>>> Did Reading get its city status?
>>>>
>>>> Apparently not.
>>>>
>>>> So you're now saying that the interchange station must be in a *third*
>>>> city? How does that relate to, "Two cities of course"?
>>>
>>> Two cities to change trains in.
>>
>> Your original question:
>>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>
>>> Two cities of course.
>>
>> How do you change trains once in two cities?
>
> I presume you are being deliberately obtuse.
>
> The answer to the question is either of two cities.

You said, "change trains just once", and I assumed you meant it.

On 19/04/2023 07:30, Lew1 wrote:
>
>
> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-travelcard-62040/
>
>
> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
> despite contactless being available.
>
> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>
> Lew
Well for those like me living outside London and using a railway day return combined with a zones 1-6 Travelcard quite often, it will be decidedly more inconvenient. It will also sometimes be more expensive than the most obvious alternative, using an Oyster card for travel within London and relying upon the daily cap. TfL clearly realise that as they expect the move to be profitable.
I'm not so sure. When I know what my London journey pattern will be I usually compute the capped Oyster fares compared with the Travelcard fare. Sometimes they are the same, but often one is cheaper than the other by up to a pound. This depends on which station I start from, and whether it's a weekday or weekend. But if the difference is small I invariably chose a paper travelcard, as it works everywhere and is problem-free. Oyster cards, in my experience, fail about 10% of the time, so that means I get a fair number of unresolved journeys. It seems impossible to resolve these online so it means a long telephone call to the TfL service centre. They invariably give me the refund that is due, but even if the telephone assistant is only being paid at the minimum wage it must be costing TfL at least several pounds every time I have to do this. If they abolish Travelcards lots more of us will have to do this much more of the time. I suspect this will easily eat into any profits they might be making from the abolition of the Travelcards.
--
Clive Page

On 19/04/2023 12:18, Recliner wrote:
> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
> off using PayG.

I'm afraid that is simply not true for those travelling in from outside London. When I travel to several different stations within in London starting in Bedfordshire, if I have time I compare the "super-off-peak day-return to London Thameslink" fare plus the Oyster cap, with the off-peak Travelcard fare. They are only occasionally the same, sometimes the Travelcard is cheaper then the rail + Oyster cap, sometimes dearer (depending on my starting station and what day of the week it is) and the difference can be as much as a pound. I've rechecked this after all the recent fare increases, and the conclusion hasn't changed.

If they abolish the Travelcard many of us will have to pay more. Not a huge amount more, but a bit.

Of course TfL gets no votes from us, nor from all the foreign tourists who will feel the pain, so they feel free to put up the prices. That's life, I guess.

> So a bit of a non-story, really.

Afraid not.

--
Clive Page

On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.

And none at all at London Blackfriars either.

I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
"There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've had to say that to)".

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 19/04/2023 07:30, Lew1 wrote:
>>
>>
>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-travelcard-62040/
>>
>>
>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>> despite contactless being available.
>>
>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>
>> Lew
>
> Well for those like me living outside London and using a railway day
> return combined with a zones 1-6 Travelcard quite often, it will be
> decidedly more inconvenient. It will also sometimes be more expensive
> than the most obvious alternative, using an Oyster card for travel within
> London and relying upon the daily cap. TfL clearly realise that as they
> expect the move to be profitable.
>
> I'm not so sure. When I know what my London journey pattern will be I
> usually compute the capped Oyster fares compared with the Travelcard
> fare. Sometimes they are the same, but often one is cheaper than the
> other by up to a pound. This depends on which station I start from, and
> whether it's a weekday or weekend. But if the difference is small I
> invariably chose a paper travelcard, as it works everywhere and is
> problem-free. Oyster cards, in my experience, fail about 10% of the
> time, so that means I get a fair number of unresolved journeys. It seems
> impossible to resolve these online so it means a long telephone call to
> the TfL service centre. They invariably give me the refund that is due,
> but even if the telephone assistant is only being paid at the minimum
> wage it must be costing TfL at least several pounds every time I have to
> do this. If they abolish Travelcards lots more of us will have to do
> this much more of the time. I suspect this will easily eat into any
> profits they might be making from the abolition of the Travelcards.

Not at all. Most people won't realise they've been overcharged, so will pay
the extra without increasing the load on the call centre.

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 19/04/2023 12:18, Recliner wrote:
>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>> off using PayG.
>
> I'm afraid that is simply not true for those travelling in from outside
> London. When I travel to several different stations within in London
> starting in Bedfordshire, if I have time I compare the "super-off-peak
> day-return to London Thameslink" fare plus the Oyster cap, with the
> off-peak Travelcard fare. They are only occasionally the same,
> sometimes the Travelcard is cheaper then the rail + Oyster cap, sometimes
> dearer (depending on my starting station and what day of the week it is)
> and the difference can be as much as a pound. I've rechecked this after
> all the recent fare increases, and the conclusion hasn't changed.

I think you must be in the tiny, tiny minority capable and willing to do
such calculations.

>
> If they abolish the Travelcard many of us will have to pay more. Not a
> huge amount more, but a bit.
>
> Of course TfL gets no votes from us, nor from all the foreign tourists
> who will feel the pain, so they feel free to put up the prices. That's life, I guess.

Yes. TfL needs more money, and it would like most of the extra funding to
come from non-Londoners using London's subsidised public transport.

On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>
> And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>
> I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've had
> to say that to)".

You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any ticket
that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink, London
Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.

Robin

In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.

>> And none at all at London Blackfriars either.

>> I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>had to say that to)".
>
>You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any ticket
>that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink, London
>Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.

But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
paper ticket to complete journey.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u29isb$11ldd$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:04 on Tue, 25 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>> On 19/04/2023 12:18, Recliner wrote:
>>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>> off using PayG.
>>
>> I'm afraid that is simply not true for those travelling in from outside
>> London. When I travel to several different stations within in London
>> starting in Bedfordshire, if I have time I compare the "super-off-peak
>> day-return to London Thameslink" fare plus the Oyster cap, with the
>> off-peak Travelcard fare. They are only occasionally the same,
>> sometimes the Travelcard is cheaper then the rail + Oyster cap, sometimes
>> dearer (depending on my starting station and what day of the week it is)
>> and the difference can be as much as a pound. I've rechecked this after
>> all the recent fare increases, and the conclusion hasn't changed.
>
>I think you must be in the tiny, tiny minority capable and willing to do
>such calculations.
>
>> If they abolish the Travelcard many of us will have to pay more. Not a
>> huge amount more, but a bit.
>>
>> Of course TfL gets no votes from us, nor from all the foreign tourists
>> who will feel the pain, so they feel free to put up the prices.
>>That's life, I guess.
>
>Yes. TfL needs more money, and it would like most of the extra funding to
>come from non-Londoners using London's subsidised public transport.

Subsidised by taxpayers, not all of whom live in London.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u29ihf$11jni$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:00:15 on Tue, 25 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>If they abolish Travelcards lots more of us will have to do
>> this much more of the time. I suspect this will easily eat into any
>> profits they might be making from the abolition of the Travelcards.
>
>Not at all. Most people won't realise they've been overcharged, so will pay
>the extra without increasing the load on the call centre.

You do have a very low opinion of the intelligence of the general
public.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u23010$3p03v$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:07:28 on Sun, 23 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <nsi74ihlsjntl2f80q8aka76m7bjuu905n@4ax.com>, at 12:59:35 on
>> Sat, 22 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:54:07 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <u20db4$382gh$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:20 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <u207q2$378hj$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:54 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21
>>>>>>>>>Apr 2023,
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contactless card all the time, or can one associate multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not
>>>>>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a
>>>>>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it
>>>>>>>>>>should be (so the techies need their heads banging together
>>>>>>>>>>to link up back-offices, like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that
>>>>>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on
>>>>>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London),
>>>>>>>>>>*without* having to go through any additional online or
>>>>>>>>>>TVM-with-a-man account enrollment process.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains
>>>>>>>>>just once to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just outside the City of Westminster, unfortunately.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>>>>>>> Reading!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did Reading get its city status?
>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently not.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you're now saying that the interchange station must be in a *third*
>>>>> city? How does that relate to, "Two cities of course"?
>>>>
>>>> Two cities to change trains in.
>>>
>>> Your original question:
>>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>
>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>
>>> How do you change trains once in two cities?
>>
>> I presume you are being deliberately obtuse.
>>
>> The answer to the question is either of two cities.
>
>You said, "change trains just once", and I assumed you meant it.

I said that, and I meant it. But thanks for confirming you were being
deliberately obtuse, because clearly the challenge is to find one city
in which to do that, of which for the umpteenth time, there is a choice
of two.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u1temi$11emk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:41:05 on Fri, 21 Apr
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 21.04.23 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <u1r07i$hiqi$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:54 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying
>>>>>>>>outboundary  Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a
>>>>>>>>Railcard discount. It  depends a lot where you are starting from
>>>>>>>>whether the National Rail  fare  + daily cap is more or less than
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?
>>
>>>>>>  This from December 2021:
>>>>>>      Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>>>>>>                      Anytime              Off-peak
>>>>>>      Reading     £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00   £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
>>>>>>     Cambridge   £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40   £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
>>>>>>     Brighton*   £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10   £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>>>>>>      *Thameslink only.
>>
>>>>>>  And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
>>>>>> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.
>>>>>>  Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
>>>>>> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
>>>>>> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)
>>
>>>>>>  Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the
>>>>>>onward TfL fares no more expensive, but there aren't any
>>>>>>validators downstairs at SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>>>
>>>>> And Finsbury Park or Kentish Town are cheaper still, and as the
>>>>>daily/weekly cap is based on Z1/2 not Z1 only, by buying a ticket
>>>>>all the way to London Terminals, you are leaving money on the
>>>>>table. Surely those stations should be a priority over SPILL for
>>>>>this kind of  split-ticketting.
>>
>>>>  Only if your train stops there, of course.
>>>
>>> Which is all of them (on the MML side, all trains stop at West
>>>Hampstead, which is also Z2, though some skip Kentish Town).

>> Good point (in the current timetable, anyway).
>>
>>>> And you are happy to get off, go find somewhere to "touch in", then
>>>>get on the next train.
>>>
>>> Isn't that exactly what you've been suggesting should happen at SPILL?
>> I was advocating for some validators on the platforms so you could
>>jump off and back on the same train.
>
>So why is this something that would definitely work at SPILL but
>somehow becomes a problem at Finsbury Park or West Hampstead?

Especially at Finsbury Park, simply the number of trains per hour.

>>> Even with the split of routes, the daytime frequency on either route
>>>is sub-10 minute interval, so even if you do miss getting back on the
>>>train you got off, it's a trivial delay.

>> Actually, at Finsury Park there are 15 minute gaps at times,
>>southbound. And of course "the next train" to say *Cambridge* is half
>>an hour away when you have to do the shuffle again to touch *out* of
>>TfL-land.
>
>Though at FP you have the laternatives of the Victoria line, Picadilly
>line and Northern City line to get where you are going, and while using
>that migth be slightly slower than a direct train, depending on final
>destination, it might very well be quicker than a 15 minute wait.

So you suggest people jump through all those complicated hoops, to work
around the simple omission of some platform validators at SPILL.

>There are no Cambridge trains at SPILL that don't also call at FP, so
>if there is a problem with missing a Cambridge train at FP, exactly the
>same problem exists of missing a Cambridge train at SPILL.

No, because of the relative frequency of trains through SPILL and FP.

>> The better organised would initially catch a Peterborough train
>>running ahead of a Cambridge one, but it's additional stuff to think
>>about, and potentially increases the journey time by up to 18min
>>(xx.24-xx.42 in the current timetable if you are heading for Cambridge).
>
>In other words, the ususal tradeoff of buying a slightly more expensive
>ticket in order to save a bit of hassle in planning and being
>organised. If you don't want the trouble, buy the London Thameslink
>ticket, and don't worry.

Buying the London Thameslink ticket doesn't solve the problem of
touching-out of one's travel during the day within TfL.

>If you're watching the pennies, plan ahead and change tickets at WH/FP.

With no on-platform verifiers there, you have to go out and back in
again. Then there's the tph issue.

>>>>> The issue of switching from PAYG to beyond-London paper tickets is
>>>>>a much broader problem, and one that affects a large number of
>>>>>stations all around the London area.
>>
>>>>  I first did that years ago at Croydon, had to exit the barriers,
>>>>and then re-enter, en-route to Gatwick (which iirc is now "in the
>>>>zones").
>>>
>>> Indeed. The sations where it actually makes sense to switch between
>>>paper and oyster tickets ought to be made a priority over a staion
>>>like SPILL where there isn't really a use case for doing so.

>> I'm not convinced by the lack of a use-case, especially as Finsbury
>>Park seems to be unraveling a bit.
>
>In terms of which stations offer the most journey possibilities for
>which transitioning from NR to Oyster on a train passing through, where
>splitting there gives the optimal fare, SPILL is pretty low down the
>list. As the central Lonodon fare capping is based on Z1/2, the
>first-station-in-Z2 set of stations would be a far more useful set (eg
>Finsbury Park, West Hampstead, Stratford, West Ham, Greenwich,
>Lewisham, Herne Hill, Clapham Junction).

Adding to the list of stations for time-on-their-hands hoop-jumpers to
use, doesn't get us any further forward.

>For the majority of connections at London Terminals, passengers will be
>passing through gatelines to make the connections anyway.

Apart from the several London Terminals on Thameslink.
--
Roland Perry

On 29.04.23 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>
>>>  And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>
>>>  I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>> had  to say that to)".
>>
>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>
> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
> paper ticket to complete journey.

So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
beings, which is City Thameslink.

Robin

On 29.04.23 08:52, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u1temi$11emk$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:41:05 on Fri, 21 Apr
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 21.04.23 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <u1r07i$hiqi$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:54 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying
>>>>>>>>> outboundary  Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a
>>>>>>>>> Railcard discount. It  depends a lot where you are starting
>>>>>>>>> from whether the National Rail  fare  + daily cap is more or
>>>>>>>>> less than
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?
>>>
>>>>>>>  This from December 2021:
>>>>>>>      Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>>>>>>>                      Anytime              Off-peak
>>>>>>>      Reading     £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00   £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
>>>>>>>     Cambridge   £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40   £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
>>>>>>>     Brighton*   £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10   £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>>>>>>>      *Thameslink only.
>>>
>>>>>>>  And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
>>>>>>> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my
>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>  Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
>>>>>>> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
>>>>>>> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)
>>>
>>>>>>>  Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the
>>>>>>> onward  TfL  fares no more expensive, but there aren't any
>>>>>>> validators downstairs at  SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Finsbury Park or Kentish Town are cheaper still, and as the
>>>>>> daily/weekly cap is based on Z1/2 not Z1 only, by buying a ticket
>>>>>> all the way to London Terminals, you are leaving money on the
>>>>>> table.  Surely those stations should be a priority over SPILL for
>>>>>> this kind  of  split-ticketting.
>>>
>>>>>  Only if your train stops there, of course.
>>>>
>>>> Which is all of them (on the MML side, all trains stop at West
>>>> Hampstead, which is also Z2, though some skip Kentish Town).
>
>>>  Good point (in the current timetable, anyway).
>>>
>>>>> And you are happy to get off, go find somewhere to "touch in", then
>>>>> get  on the next train.
>>>>
>>>> Isn't that exactly what you've been suggesting should happen at SPILL?
>>>  I was advocating for some validators on the platforms so you could
>>> jump  off and back on the same train.
>>
>> So why is this something that would definitely work at SPILL but
>> somehow becomes a problem at Finsbury Park or West Hampstead?
>
> Especially at Finsbury Park, simply the number of trains per hour.

Surely providing it at a less busy station would be preferable, as
people doing this switcheroo would be less caught up in the other
passengers doing their various things.

>>>> Even with the split of routes, the daytime frequency on either route
>>>> is sub-10 minute interval, so even if you do miss getting back on
>>>> the train you got off, it's a trivial delay.
>
>>>  Actually, at Finsury Park there are 15 minute gaps at times,
>>> southbound.  And of course "the next train" to say *Cambridge* is
>>> half an hour away  when you have to do the shuffle again to touch
>>> *out* of TfL-land.
>>
>> Though at FP you have the laternatives of the Victoria line, Picadilly
>> line and Northern City line to get where you are going, and while
>> using that migth be slightly slower than a direct train, depending on
>> final destination, it might very well be quicker than a 15 minute wait.
>
> So you suggest people jump through all those complicated hoops, to work
> around the simple omission of some platform validators at SPILL.

So it suddenly becomes "all these complicated hoops" if it's at West
Hampstead or Finsbury Park, but a simple process at SPILL? It would be
literally the same thing, except at a station likely to be less crowded.

>> There are no Cambridge trains at SPILL that don't also call at FP, so
>> if there is a problem with missing a Cambridge train at FP, exactly
>> the same problem exists of missing a Cambridge train at SPILL.
>
> No, because of the relative frequency of trains through SPILL and FP.

If you're trying to go to/from Cambridge, the frequency of trains
to/from other destinations is irrelevant.

>>> The better organised would initially catch a Peterborough train
>>> running  ahead of a Cambridge one, but it's additional stuff to think
>>> about, and  potentially increases the journey time by up to 18min
>>> (xx.24-xx.42 in  the current timetable if you are heading for
>>> Cambridge).
>>
>> In other words, the ususal tradeoff of buying a slightly more
>> expensive ticket in order to save a bit of hassle in planning and
>> being organised. If you don't want the trouble, buy the London
>> Thameslink ticket, and don't worry.
>
> Buying the London Thameslink ticket doesn't solve the problem of
> touching-out of one's travel during the day within TfL.

It is impossible to transfer between TfL and TL at any London Thameslink
group station without having to pass a validator while making the
connection:

SPILL to LU: gateline
Farringdon to Circle/Met/H&C: validators
Farringdon to Elizabeth: validators (I assume the last ommissions have
been rectified)
Blackfriars to Circle/District: gateline
London Bridge to Northern/Jubilee: gateline
Elephant and Castle to Bakerloo: gateline

>> If you're watching the pennies, plan ahead and change tickets at WH/FP.
>
> With no on-platform verifiers there, you have to go out and back in
> again. Then there's the tph issue.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, both FP and WH have sub-10 minute
interval to the Thameslink core. My point is, if there really is a case
for providing on-platform validators for Thameslink passengers, these
are the stations where they should be prioritised.

>>>>>> The issue of switching from PAYG to beyond-London paper tickets is
>>>>>> a  much broader problem, and one that affects a large number of
>>>>>> stations all around the London area.
>>>
>>>>>  I first did that years ago at Croydon, had to exit the barriers,
>>>>> and  then re-enter, en-route to Gatwick (which iirc is now "in the
>>>>> zones").
>>>>
>>>> Indeed. The sations where it actually makes sense to switch between
>>>> paper and oyster tickets ought to be made a priority over a staion
>>>> like SPILL where there isn't really a use case for doing so.
>
>>>  I'm not convinced by the lack of a use-case, especially as Finsbury
>>> Park  seems to be unraveling a bit.
>>
>> In terms of which stations offer the most journey possibilities for
>> which transitioning from NR to Oyster on a train passing through,
>> where splitting there gives the optimal fare, SPILL is pretty low down
>> the list. As the central Lonodon fare capping is based on Z1/2, the
>> first-station-in-Z2 set of stations would be a far more useful set (eg
>> Finsbury Park, West Hampstead, Stratford, West Ham, Greenwich,
>> Lewisham, Herne Hill, Clapham Junction).
>
> Adding to the list of stations for time-on-their-hands hoop-jumpers to
> use, doesn't get us any further forward.

Either it's a problem that needs to be solved or it is not a problem
that needs to be solved. All of these stations have exactly the same
issue of being a place where TfL and NR ticketing systems interface.

>> For the majority of connections at London Terminals, passengers will
>> be passing through gatelines to make the connections anyway.
>
> Apart from the several London Terminals on Thameslink.

On Sat, 29 Apr 2023 07:41:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <u29isb$11ldd$5@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:04 on Tue, 25 Apr
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>> On 19/04/2023 12:18, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>>>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>>> off using PayG.
>>>
>>> I'm afraid that is simply not true for those travelling in from outside
>>> London. When I travel to several different stations within in London
>>> starting in Bedfordshire, if I have time I compare the "super-off-peak
>>> day-return to London Thameslink" fare plus the Oyster cap, with the
>>> off-peak Travelcard fare. They are only occasionally the same,
>>> sometimes the Travelcard is cheaper then the rail + Oyster cap, sometimes
>>> dearer (depending on my starting station and what day of the week it is)
>>> and the difference can be as much as a pound. I've rechecked this after
>>> all the recent fare increases, and the conclusion hasn't changed.
>>
>>I think you must be in the tiny, tiny minority capable and willing to do
>>such calculations.
>>
>>> If they abolish the Travelcard many of us will have to pay more. Not a
>>> huge amount more, but a bit.
>>>
>>> Of course TfL gets no votes from us, nor from all the foreign tourists
>>> who will feel the pain, so they feel free to put up the prices.
>>>That's life, I guess.
>>
>>Yes. TfL needs more money, and it would like most of the extra funding to
>>come from non-Londoners using London's subsidised public transport.
>
>Subsidised by taxpayers, not all of whom live in London.

TfL broke even on operating costs before the pandemic, so there was no government subsidy. Lockdowns prevented that, but
as numbers return, TfL is becoming less reliant on government subsidy that's likely to finish next year.

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 29.04.23 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>
>>>>  And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>
>>>>  I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>> had  to say that to)".
>>>
>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>>
>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
>> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
>> paper ticket to complete journey.
>
> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>
> Robin
>

What you need is an intelligent contactless device, something with GPS that
knows where it is and a radio Internet link to contact the TFL database. It
might also be useful for other things…

On 29.04.23 16:39, Tweed wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 29.04.23 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>
>>>>>  And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>>
>>>>>  I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>> had  to say that to)".
>>>>
>>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>>>
>>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
>>> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
>>> paper ticket to complete journey.
>>
>> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>>
>> Robin
>>
>
> What you need is an intelligent contactless device, something with GPS that
> knows where it is and a radio Internet link to contact the TFL database. It
> might also be useful for other things…

A UK version of
https://www.sbb.ch/en/timetable/mobile-apps/sbb-mobile/easyride.html for
example.

Robin

On 29 Apr 2023 at 5:39:00 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 29.04.23 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>
>>>>> And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>>
>>>>> I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>> had to say that to)".
>>>>
>>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>>>
>>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
>>> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
>>> paper ticket to complete journey.
>>
>> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>>
>> Robin
>>
>
> What you need is an intelligent contactless device, something with GPS that
> knows where it is and a radio Internet link to contact the TFL database. It
> might also be useful for other things…

It wonder if you could use it to receive alerts sent by the authorities in
emergencies? That would be handy ;).

(Sorry!)

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 29 Apr 2023 at 5:39:00 PM EEST, "Tweed" <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 29.04.23 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>>
>>>>>> And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>>>
>>>>>> I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>>> had to say that to)".
>>>>>
>>>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>>> ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>>>> London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.
>>>>
>>>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day on
>>>> contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to a
>>>> paper ticket to complete journey.
>>>
>>> So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>>> beings, which is City Thameslink.
>>>
>>> Robin
>>>
>>
>> What you need is an intelligent contactless device, something with GPS that
>> knows where it is and a radio Internet link to contact the TFL database. It
>> might also be useful for other things…
>
> It wonder if you could use it to receive alerts sent by the authorities in
> emergencies? That would be handy ;).
>
> (Sorry!)
>

Perhaps you could get it to display timetable information?

In message <u2iops$2t81u$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:42:20 on Sat, 29 Apr
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 29.04.23 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <u2ajeq$19m6m$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:22:02 on Wed, 26 Apr
>>2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 25.04.23 22:10, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> On 20/04/2023 06:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>
>>>>  And none at all at London Blackfriars either.
>>
>>>>  I've complained about that to Thameslink and TfL to no avail.
>>>> "There's no demand see (and I've lost count of how many people I've
>>>>had  to say that to)".
>>>
>>> You can't buy a ticket valid to but not through Blackfriars. Any
>>>ticket that gets you to Blackfriars is also valid to City Thameslink,
>>>London Bridge and Elephant and Castle, from either direction.

>> But not to Brighton, so people need the opportunity to spend the day
>>on contactless in London, then touch-out somewhere when switching to
>>a paper ticket to complete journey.
>
>So do it at the point where the validity of the ticket to Brighton
>beings, which is City Thameslink.

If you've been traveling around London on the tube all day, and now need
to get a train home, topologically City Thameslink is one of the worst
places to have to arrange to travel through.

From a fares point of view, it's unlikely to be optimal for switching
between TfL-contactless and a final-leg National Rail paper ticket.
--
Roland Perry