In message <Gcq*zIeez@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 12:30:44 on Thu,
20 Apr 2023, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>> The TOC will get 9% sales commission too, regardless of how they split
>> the Orcats-ish revenue between TfL and National Rail TOCs.
>
>I think it's 5% these days.

Be interesting to get a cite for that (which I think is the *online*
sales commission, not the manned ticket office).

>> Meanwhile, I presume they've looked at the possibility that scrapping
>> Outboundary Travelcards will put some people off travelling at all - not
>> just the extra cost but throwing in the towel in the face of the extra
>> hassle of being forced into this split-ticketing regime, including quite
>> likely the general learning curve of becoming a CCC user.
>
>I suspect a large number of such tickets are used purely for a pair of
>journeys in zone 1, and users on some flows may overpay for the full Z1-6
>travelcard purely for convenience.

I'm not sure the average traveller is sophisticated enough to optimise
his travel budget at that level of detail.

Also, the availability of tickets from the provinces to things like
"Z1/2" has been rotting away (presumably to make people pay more for the
unwanted but more featured Z1-6 Travelcard).

>Such users may end up paying less with CCC,

I doubt it.

>although it remains to be seen whether TfL gets less revenue as a
>result.

Indeed it will, although attributing any overall revenue gain/loss to
this one demographic (rather than other trends) will require a lot of
market research.

But if you are trying to price-gouge the public out of £40m, maybe
spending a couple of million to make sure they got the target right
is probably worth it.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:30:44 +0100, Theo wrote:

> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> The TOC will get 9% sales commission too, regardless of how they split
>> the Orcats-ish revenue between TfL and National Rail TOCs.
>
> I think it's 5% these days.
>
>> Meanwhile, I presume they've looked at the possibility that scrapping
>> Outboundary Travelcards will put some people off travelling at all -
>> not just the extra cost but throwing in the towel in the face of the
>> extra hassle of being forced into this split-ticketing regime,
>> including quite likely the general learning curve of becoming a CCC
>> user.
>
> I suspect a large number of such tickets are used purely for a pair of
> journeys in zone 1, and users on some flows may overpay for the full
> Z1-6 travelcard purely for convenience. Such users may end up paying
> less with CCC, although it remains to be seen whether TfL gets less
> revenue as a result.
>
> Theo

Indeed, before contactless we always bought Travelcards from MK purely
for convenience of not needing a separate ticket on the Underground
regardless of it probably costing more.

Don't need them any more.

nib

According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
>For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>that *account* has the discount associated with it.

At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem. I think this falls into
"doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."

>Due to the pandemic, I didn't renew my Senior railcard until I had a
>prospect of using it, so that needs linking to my Oyster when I'm next
>in London [providing an online pathway to do it is apparently "too
>difficult"].

Having done it a few times with an Oyster card, it takes about two
minutes with a staff member at the ticket machine. What would you
expect to be worse?

>>The comments on the article point out a different, rather narrow
>>problem. You can use a Two Together railcard to get two discounted

>Isn't there also something about the free-companion tickets for the
>disabled?

Right, same issue that with Oyster or contactless there's no way to do
two people on the same railcard. I could imagine that you put it on
two cards and it somehow checke in the back office to reverse the
discount if both people don't tap in together. Or not bother, the lost
revenue from one person using a two together is likely not worth
tracking down.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
>>For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>
>At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem. I think this falls into
>"doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."

I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one Driving
licence, but multiple credit cards.

>>Due to the pandemic, I didn't renew my Senior railcard until I had a
>>prospect of using it, so that needs linking to my Oyster when I'm next
>>in London [providing an online pathway to do it is apparently "too
>>difficult"].
>
>Having done it a few times with an Oyster card, it takes about two
>minutes with a staff member at the ticket machine. What would you
>expect to be worse?

Discovering the station you wanted to do this at, didn't have one of
those staff available. I'm tempted to go to Mornington Crescent, just to
see if it's possible there.

>>>The comments on the article point out a different, rather narrow
>>>problem. You can use a Two Together railcard to get two discounted
>
>>Isn't there also something about the free-companion tickets for the
>>disabled?
>
>Right, same issue that with Oyster or contactless there's no way to do
>two people on the same railcard.

Sure, but we are discussing the drawbacks of going from paper to
plastic.

>I could imagine that you put it on two cards and it somehow checke in
>the back office to reverse the discount if both people don't tap in
>together. Or not bother, the lost revenue from one person using a two
>together is likely not worth tracking down.

These things are all part of the "can of worms" I mentioned earlier.
--
Roland Perry

In message <dj924i1f4a0shceg1bequv0umb4tln4ehi@4ax.com>, at 12:49:05 on
Thu, 20 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 06:24:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <u1q480$p56$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 01:24:16 on Thu, 20 Apr 2023,
>>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
>>
>>>>Noting also that you can get a Railcard discount on the outboundary
>>>>travelcard, but you can't on TfL contactless payments.
>>>
>>>Apparently there's a fix planned for that, so you can tie a railcard
>>>to your contactless card.
>>
>>It's been "planned" for several years, but they never do it. Difficult
>>to know if this is mere idleness, a wish not to lose the revenue, some
>>actual technical issue, or something out of the can-of-worms.
>
>It's finally happening as part of the PayG extension.

Let us know when it *actually* happens.

>My guess is that TfL deferred it, as it had nothing to gain from
>it.

In other words "we'll continue to overcharge our customers, because we
can".
--
Roland Perry

On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>
>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this falls into
>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."
>
> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one Driving
> licence, but multiple credit cards.

Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various public
transport services.

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <dj924i1f4a0shceg1bequv0umb4tln4ehi@4ax.com>, at 12:49:05 on
> Thu, 20 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 06:24:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <u1q480$p56$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 01:24:16 on Thu, 20 Apr 2023,
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>> According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>
>>>>> Noting also that you can get a Railcard discount on the outboundary
>>>>> travelcard, but you can't on TfL contactless payments.
>>>>
>>>> Apparently there's a fix planned for that, so you can tie a railcard
>>>> to your contactless card.
>>>
>>> It's been "planned" for several years, but they never do it. Difficult
>>> to know if this is mere idleness, a wish not to lose the revenue, some
>>> actual technical issue, or something out of the can-of-worms.
>>
>> It's finally happening as part of the PayG extension.
>
> Let us know when it *actually* happens.
>
>> My guess is that TfL deferred it, as it had nothing to gain from
>> it.
>
> In other words "we'll continue to overcharge our customers, because we
> can".

Basically, yes.

In message <u1r07i$hiqi$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:54 on Thu, 20 Apr
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:

>>>>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying
>>>>>>outboundary Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a
>>>>>>Railcard discount. It depends a lot where you are starting from
>>>>>>whether the National Rail fare + daily cap is more or less than
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?

>>>>  This from December 2021:
>>>>      Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>>>>                      Anytime              Off-peak
>>>>      Reading     £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00   £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
>>>>     Cambridge   £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40   £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
>>>>     Brighton*   £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10   £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>>>>      *Thameslink only.

>>>>  And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
>>>> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.
>>>>  Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
>>>> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
>>>> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)

>>>>  Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>
>>> And Finsbury Park or Kentish Town are cheaper still, and as the
>>>daily/weekly cap is based on Z1/2 not Z1 only, by buying a ticket all
>>>the way to London Terminals, you are leaving money on the table.
>>>Surely those stations should be a priority over SPILL for this kind
>>>of split-ticketting.

>> Only if your train stops there, of course.
>
>Which is all of them (on the MML side, all trains stop at West
>Hampstead, which is also Z2, though some skip Kentish Town).

Good point (in the current timetable, anyway).

>> And you are happy to get off, go find somewhere to "touch in", then get
>> on the next train.
>
>Isn't that exactly what you've been suggesting should happen at SPILL?

I was advocating for some validators on the platforms so you could jump
off and back on the same train.

>Even with the split of routes, the daytime frequency on either route is
>sub-10 minute interval, so even if you do miss getting back on the
>train you got off, it's a trivial delay.

Actually, at Finsury Park there are 15 minute gaps at times, southbound.
And of course "the next train" to say *Cambridge* is half an hour away
when you have to do the shuffle again to touch *out* of TfL-land.

The better organised would initially catch a Peterborough train running
ahead of a Cambridge one, but it's additional stuff to think about, and
potentially increases the journey time by up to 18min (xx.24-xx.42 in
the current timetable if you are heading for Cambridge).

>>> The issue of switching from PAYG to beyond-London paper tickets is a
>>>much broader problem, and one that affects a large number of stations
>>>all around the London area.

>> I first did that years ago at Croydon, had to exit the barriers, and
>>then re-enter, en-route to Gatwick (which iirc is now "in the zones").
>
>Indeed. The sations where it actually makes sense to switch between
>paper and oyster tickets ought to be made a priority over a staion like
>SPILL where there isn't really a use case for doing so.

I'm not convinced by the lack of a use-case, especially as Finsbury Park
seems to be unraveling a bit.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>
>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this falls into
>>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."

>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one Driving
>>licence, but multiple credit cards.
>
>Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various public
>transport services.

The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one chooses
to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable feast,
especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so the
techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices, like
GA and EMR have already done).

But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
(just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account enrollment
process.

As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham, then either of a GA or EMR card
is the only other one I need.
--
Roland Perry

On 21.04.23 08:05, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u1r07i$hiqi$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:54 on Thu, 20 Apr
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying
>>>>>>> outboundary  Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a
>>>>>>> Railcard discount. It  depends a lot where you are starting from
>>>>>>> whether the National Rail  fare  + daily cap is more or less than
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?
>
>>>>>  This from December 2021:
>>>>>      Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>>>>>                      Anytime              Off-peak
>>>>>      Reading     £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00   £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
>>>>>     Cambridge   £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40   £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
>>>>>     Brighton*   £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10   £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>>>>>      *Thameslink only.
>
>>>>>  And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
>>>>> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.
>>>>>  Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
>>>>> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
>>>>> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)
>
>>>>>  Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward
>>>>> TfL
>>>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>>>
>>>> And Finsbury Park or Kentish Town are cheaper still, and as the
>>>> daily/weekly cap is based on Z1/2 not Z1 only, by buying a ticket
>>>> all the way to London Terminals, you are leaving money on the table.
>>>> Surely those stations should be a priority over SPILL for this kind
>>>> of  split-ticketting.
>
>>>  Only if your train stops there, of course.
>>
>> Which is all of them (on the MML side, all trains stop at West
>> Hampstead, which is also Z2, though some skip Kentish Town).
>
> Good point (in the current timetable, anyway).
>
>>> And you are happy to get off, go find somewhere to "touch in", then get
>>> on the next train.
>>
>> Isn't that exactly what you've been suggesting should happen at SPILL?
>
> I was advocating for some validators on the platforms so you could jump
> off and back on the same train.

So why is this something that would definitely work at SPILL but somehow
becomes a problem at Finsbury Park or West Hampstead?

>> Even with the split of routes, the daytime frequency on either route
>> is sub-10 minute interval, so even if you do miss getting back on the
>> train you got off, it's a trivial delay.
>
> Actually, at Finsury Park there are 15 minute gaps at times, southbound.
> And of course "the next train" to say *Cambridge* is half an hour away
> when you have to do the shuffle again to touch *out* of TfL-land.

Though at FP you have the laternatives of the Victoria line, Picadilly
line and Northern City line to get where you are going, and while using
that migth be slightly slower than a direct train, depending on final
destination, it might very well be quicker than a 15 minute wait.

There are no Cambridge trains at SPILL that don't also call at FP, so if
there is a problem with missing a Cambridge train at FP, exactly the
same problem exists of missing a Cambridge train at SPILL.

> The better organised would initially catch a Peterborough train running
> ahead of a Cambridge one, but it's additional stuff to think about, and
> potentially increases the journey time by up to 18min (xx.24-xx.42 in
> the current timetable if you are heading for Cambridge).

In other words, the ususal tradeoff of buying a slightly more expensive
ticket in order to save a bit of hassle in planning and being organised.
If you don't want the trouble, buy the London Thameslink ticket, and
don't worry. If you're watching the pennies, plan ahead and change
tickets at WH/FP.

>>>> The issue of switching from PAYG to beyond-London paper tickets is a
>>>> much broader problem, and one that affects a large number of
>>>> stations all around the London area.
>
>>>  I first did that years ago at Croydon, had to exit the barriers, and
>>> then re-enter, en-route to Gatwick (which iirc is now "in the zones").
>>
>> Indeed. The sations where it actually makes sense to switch between
>> paper and oyster tickets ought to be made a priority over a staion
>> like SPILL where there isn't really a use case for doing so.
>
> I'm not convinced by the lack of a use-case, especially as Finsbury Park
> seems to be unraveling a bit.

In terms of which stations offer the most journey possibilities for
which transitioning from NR to Oyster on a train passing through, where
splitting there gives the optimal fare, SPILL is pretty low down the
list. As the central Lonodon fare capping is based on Z1/2, the
first-station-in-Z2 set of stations would be a far more useful set (eg
Finsbury Park, West Hampstead, Stratford, West Ham, Greenwich, Lewisham,
Herne Hill, Clapham Junction). For the majority of connections at London
Terminals, passengers will be passing through gatelines to make the
connections anyway.

Robin

In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>
>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>>>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this falls into
>>>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."
>
>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>
>>Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>public transport services.
>
>The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>like GA and EMR have already done).
>
>But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>(just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>enrollment process.
>
>As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,

One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".

Two cities of course.

>then either of a GA or EMR card is the only other one I need.

--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 05:17:32 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>
>One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>
Nowadays I can only think of Norwich and Ely. Until quite recently you
had direct trains from Liverpool St. to the latter via two routes, the
WA line and the GEML via Ipswich.
Slightly further back you could do the journey changing at Stansted
Airport, Audley End or Cambridge.
You could also change at Euston Square, if that's permitted by
Roland's rules.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>>>>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this falls into
>>>>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."
>>
>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>
>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>> public transport services.
>>
>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>
>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>> enrollment process.
>>
>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>
> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>
> Two cities of course.

Euston Square/Euston?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>>>>>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this falls into
>>>>>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."
>>>
>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>
>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>> public transport services.
>>>
>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>
>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>> enrollment process.
>>>
>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>
>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>
>> Two cities of course.
>
> Euston Square/Euston?
>

If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
Reading!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 22.04.23 11:01, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>>>>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>>>>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>>>>>>>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this falls into
>>>>>>>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>
>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>
>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>
>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>
>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>
>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>
>>
>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>> Reading!
>
> In due course, it will be Old Oak Common.
>

Yes, indeed, but will any of us live long enough to be able to take that
journey?

In message <u20an5$37l8u$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:33 on Sat, 22 Apr
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 22.04.23 11:01, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless
>>>>>>>>>card all
>>>>>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL
>>>>>>>>>account, and
>>>>>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>>>>>>>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this
>>>>>>>>falls into
>>>>>>>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>
>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>
>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>
>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>
>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>
>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>
>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now
>>be Reading!
>
>In due course, it will be Old Oak Common.

Which city is that in? (If we add that to the question, which was my
original intention).

--
Roland Perry

In message <u2076h$37573$5@dont-email.me>, at 08:51:29 on Sat, 22 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>>>>>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this
>>>>>>falls into
>>>>>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."
>>>
>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>
>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>> public transport services.
>>>
>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>
>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>> enrollment process.
>>>
>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>
>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>
>> Two cities of course.
>
>Euston Square/Euston?

I hadn't thought of that, so needs to be excluded from the question if
we aren't being pedantic about 'cities'. Although specifying cities is
perhaps too much of an extra clue.

"Mainline trains".

ps There was once a train from LST to PBO via Ipswich, but no longer.
From Colchester how, and that only once a day (at crack of dawn).
--
Roland Perry

In message <qq574iprrhm0q4296bcab9bu7ggjqpvieb@4ax.com>, at 09:23:05 on
Sat, 22 Apr 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 05:17:32 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>
>Nowadays I can only think of Norwich and Ely. Until quite recently you
>had direct trains from Liverpool St. to the latter via two routes, the
>WA line and the GEML via Ipswich.

I think the Ipswich ones died off quite a long time ago. However, the
autoannouncer at Ely has a legacy (or did, I haven't checked recently)
because in an attempt to defuse the confusion by having "Lime Street,
Liverpool" as the destination for the northern leg.

>Slightly further back you could do the journey changing at Stansted
>Airport, Audley End or Cambridge.

Yes, Cambridge also having the advantage of being a City. My student
next door neighbour used to go back home to Liverpool on the train some
weekends around the Millenium, but that direct link perished, when the
route via Birmingham was split between two different TOCs.

Whether the trains went as far as Stansted was also something they
dithered over, from one year to the next.

>You could also change at Euston Square, if that's permitted by
>Roland's rules.

I'm wordsmithing the question to either specify Cities, or "Mainline"
trains.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u207q2$378hj$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:54 on Sat, 22 Apr
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>>>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>>>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single
>>>>>>>Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think
>>>>>>>this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>
>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>
>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>
>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>
>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>
>>> Two cities of course.
>>
>> Euston Square/Euston?

Just outside the City of Westminster, unfortunately.

>If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>Reading!

Did Reading get its city status?
--
Roland Perry

On 22.04.23 11:01, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>>>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>>>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>>>>>>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this falls into
>>>>>>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."
>>>>
>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>
>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>
>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>
>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>
>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>
>>> Two cities of course.
>>
>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>
>
> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
> Reading!

In due course, it will be Old Oak Common.

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u20an5$37l8u$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:33 on Sat, 22 Apr
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 22.04.23 11:01, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless
>>>>>>>>>> card all
>>>>>>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL
>>>>>>>>>> account, and
>>>>>>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single Oyster
>>>>>>>>> card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think this
>>>>>>>>> falls into
>>>>>>>>> "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do that."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>
>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>
>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>
>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>>
>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now
>>> be Reading!
>>
>> In due course, it will be Old Oak Common.
>
> Which city is that in? (If we add that to the question, which was my
> original intention).
>

You need to clarify what you meant by 'two cities' — I thought you were
simply reminding people that the origin and destination were in two
different cities (contrary to what most Americans would assume). The
question itself had no stipulations about where the change point could be.

And OOC and Liverpool St are in any case not in the same city.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u207q2$378hj$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:54 on Sat, 22 Apr
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
>>>>>>>>> the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
>>>>>>>>> that *account* has the discount associated with it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single
>>>>>>>> Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think
>>>>>>>> this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>
>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>
>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>
>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>
>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>
>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>
> Just outside the City of Westminster, unfortunately.
>
>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>> Reading!
>
> Did Reading get its city status?

Apparently not.

So you're now saying that the interchange station must be in a *third*
city? How does that relate to, "Two cities of course"?

In message <u20d7i$381v5$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:34:26 on Sat, 22 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u20an5$37l8u$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:51:33 on Sat, 22 Apr
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 22.04.23 11:01, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>>contactless card all the time, or can one associate
>>>>>>>>>>>multiple cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a
>>>>>>>>>>single Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big
>>>>>>>>>>problem.  I think this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>>>
>>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now
>>>> be Reading!
>>>
>>> In due course, it will be Old Oak Common.
>>
>> Which city is that in? (If we add that to the question, which was my
>> original intention).
>
>You need to clarify what you meant by 'two cities' — I thought you were
>simply reminding people that the origin and destination were in two
>different cities (contrary to what most Americans would assume).

It was meant to be the change point was a choice between two different
cities.

>The question itself had no stipulations about where the change point
>could be.

Which is why it's being clarified.

>And OOC and Liverpool St are in any case not in the same city.

LST just scraps inside City of London.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u20db4$382gh$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:20 on Sat, 22 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u207q2$378hj$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:54 on Sat, 22 Apr
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>contactless card all the time, or can one associate multiple
>>>>>>>>>>cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single
>>>>>>>>> Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think
>>>>>>>>> this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>
>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>
>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>
>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>
>> Just outside the City of Westminster, unfortunately.
>>
>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>>> Reading!
>>
>> Did Reading get its city status?
>
>Apparently not.
>
>So you're now saying that the interchange station must be in a *third*
>city? How does that relate to, "Two cities of course"?

Two cities to change trains in.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:54:07 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <u20db4$382gh$5@dont-email.me>, at 10:36:20 on Sat, 22 Apr
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u207q2$378hj$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:54 on Sat, 22 Apr
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <JdczzCvYoiQkFA66@perry.uk>, at 07:15:52 on Fri, 21 Apr 2023,
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> In message <u1rq7n$lumf$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:43 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 20.04.23 18:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <u1ro3l$2dc8$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:09:25 on Thu, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>>> 2023, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.uk>:
>>>>>>>>>>> For example, it rather assumes people use the same
>>>>>>>>>>>contactless card all the time, or can one associate multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>cards with one TfL account, and that *account* has the
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At the moment you can only associate your railcard with a single
>>>>>>>>>> Oyster card, and that doesn't seem to be a big problem.  I think
>>>>>>>>>> this falls into "doctor, it hurts when I do this", "so don't do
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I l expect to have one Oyster Card, one Senior Bus Pass, one
>>>>>>>>> Driving licence, but multiple credit cards.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't forget the dozen or so incompatible ITSO cards for various
>>>>>>>> public transport services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Senior Bus Pass is of course an ITSO, and whether or not one
>>>>>>> chooses to use another one to store train tickets on is a moveable
>>>>>>> feast, especially as interoperability isn't yet what it should be (so
>>>>>>> the techies need their heads banging together to link up back-offices,
>>>>>>> like GA and EMR have already done).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But a crucial difference is that, should it be the case that I need
>>>>>>> multiple ITSO cards, I can probably pick the one required on the day
>>>>>>> (just like I only take my Oyster if going to London), *without* having
>>>>>>> to go through any additional online or TVM-with-a-man account
>>>>>>> enrollment process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it happens the GTR ITSO card (a descendant of the Southern one)
>>>>>>> covers such a large area - because GTR is such a big franchise - that
>>>>>>> it'll do most of the time; and if I want to explore Ipswich/Norwich/
>>>>>>> Liverpool St/Peterborough/Nottingham,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
>>>>>> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Two cities of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Euston Square/Euston?
>>>
>>> Just outside the City of Westminster, unfortunately.
>>>
>>>> If only Liverpool was still on the XC network, the answer could now be
>>>> Reading!
>>>
>>> Did Reading get its city status?
>>
>>Apparently not.
>>
>>So you're now saying that the interchange station must be in a *third*
>>city? How does that relate to, "Two cities of course"?
>
>Two cities to change trains in.

Your original question:

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
> One of those pub-quiz questions: "Where can you change trains just once
> to travel from Liverpool Street to Liverpool".
>
> Two cities of course.

How do you change trains once in two cities?