On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:22:50 GMT, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

>I would go further and support any proposal to penalise those who
>exploit moral hazard by not getting vaccinated while veryone else
>dose. We are not used to paying for healthcare in this country but it
>may not be a bad idea to bill the unvaccinated who acquire Covid and
>need hospital treatment.

I've seen this suggested quite a lot lately, and I find it very
worrying. Once you've established the principle of making moral
judgements about people's entitlement to healthcare on the basis of
their behaviour, where would you stop? Would you withhold medical
treatment from smokers for example? Would you expect ambulance drivers
to judge whether accident victims had been drinking, or had been
wearing their seatbelts, and leave them by the side of the road in
favour of those who had behaved properly? As I understand it, initial
triage is currently done to establish likelihood of survival, not
moral worthiness on account of behaviour, and then the doctors will
save as many lives as they can regardless of why they need saving. On
what principles do you think a health service ought to operate?

Rod.

On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 15:23:33 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
<noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <s3vdtgdjnslj7gck3m6tlm68ncec57m2a9@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 10:58:25 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
>> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >The plain truth is that masks, social distancing, regular testing, and
>> >vaccines can and do all help provided a fair number of people adopt these
>> >measures.
>
>> The plain truth is that "social distancing" is one of the most
>> chilling Orwellian oxymorons I've ever heard.
>
>That may well be true for you. But to me it seems a fairly daft assertion
>given the context of a serious infectious disease, etc.
>
>Jim

As the dominant strain is now being described by those who have
suffered it as "like a bad cold", if they even notice it at all, which
some don't, it's no longer credible to regard it as "serious".

Rod.

On 07/01/2022 10:23, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>
> Of course a majority support burglary being illegal, but judging by
> newspaper comments, online presentations, and the street protests
> involving hundreds of thousands of people that have been taking place
> in many cities throughout the world (though not widely reported in the
> mainstream media for some reason) there isn't anything like the same
> level of support for the covid rules. These were rushed through
> parliament without the usual process by a government that had seized
> extra powers the democratic electorate had never given them, and now
> seem reluctant to give up. If there was initially an emergency of a
> type that could have been dealt with by emergency laws, we are in a
> very different situation now. There seems a sizeable consensus that
> the rules are currently destroying more than they are saving.

Most of this sounds like right-wing fantasy fake news to me. Where is
your *EVIDENCE* for any of it?

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 07/01/2022 10:26, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>
> As the dominant strain is now being described by those who have
> suffered it as "like a bad cold", if they even notice it at all, which
> some don't, it's no longer credible to regard it as "serious".

For one thing the above is merely hearsay, where is your *EVIDENCE*,
secondly, how do explain the recent doubling of hospital admissions and
the concordant slight increase in deaths?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 10:08 7 Jan 2022, Roderick Stewart said:
> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 20:22:50 GMT, Pamela
> <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I would go further and support any proposal to penalise those who
>>exploit moral hazard by not getting vaccinated while everyone else
>>dose. We are not used to paying for healthcare in this country but
>>it may not be a bad idea to bill the unvaccinated who acquire Covid
>>and need hospital treatment.
>
> I've seen this suggested quite a lot lately, and I find it very
> worrying. Once you've established the principle of making moral
> judgements about people's entitlement to healthcare on the basis of
> their behaviour, where would you stop? Would you withhold medical
> treatment from smokers for example? Would you expect ambulance
> drivers to judge whether accident victims had been drinking, or had
> been wearing their seatbelts, and leave them by the side of the road
> in favour of those who had behaved properly? As I understand it,
> initial triage is currently done to establish likelihood of
> survival, not moral worthiness on account of behaviour, and then the
> doctors will save as many lives as they can regardless of why they
> need saving. On what principles do you think a health service ought
> to operate?
>
> Rod.

Moral hazard has little to do with moral worthiness.

Charging the unvaccinated for their hospital care is actually only
part of the picture because if one of them fell ill then he or she is
likely to have passed on their disease to others, who may in turn also
become too ill to work, looks after elderly parents or even need
hospitalisation.

That sort of contagion doesn't apply to your other example of smoking
(now that smokers are banned from most public spaces) nor drunks.

I have been in A&E on a Friday night and seen streams of drunks arrive
from pubs and parties. I was in a lot of pain from a kidney stone
which later required hospitalisation but was in too much discomfort to
stay in A&E because there was a huge backlog from of people with
injuries at a drunken student party.

Drunks with self-inflicted injuries should be given lower priority in
A&E than sober careful people with the same injury. I wonder if heavy
drinkers would be more careful if we had a system like America where
you're charged afterwards for your A&E treatment.

On 10:23 7 Jan 2022, Roderick Stewart said:

> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 15:21:41 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In article <cmudtg5dnfrk7q5a25dthaah9m1qe1u8qp@4ax.com>, Roderick
>>Stewart
>><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> >Yes, it is true that some people drive dangerously, or burgle
>>> >houses, etc, despite laws/rules saying they should not. This
>>> >isn't a particularly good 'reason' for deciding to abandon all
>>> >rules or laws, though.
>>
>>> There is a strong argument for reconsidering laws that are ignored
>>> by such a large number of people as to risk damaging respect for
>>> the law in general. Laws can only work in a democracy if the
>>> majority agree with them.
>>
>>I suspect most people agree that burglary should be illegal and
>>offenders prosecuted. I doubt the burglars - or reckless speeding
>>drivers - would outvote the more sensible people.
>>
>>Jim
>
> Of course a majority support burglary being illegal, but judging by
> newspaper comments, online presentations, and the street protests
> involving hundreds of thousands of people that have been taking
> place in many cities throughout the world (though not widely
> reported in the mainstream media for some reason) there isn't
> anything like the same level of support for the covid rules. These
> were rushed through parliament without the usual process by a
> government that had seized extra powers the democratic electorate
> had never given them, and now seem reluctant to give up. If there
> was initially an emergency of a type that could have been dealt with
> by emergency laws, we are in a very different situation now. There
> seems a sizeable consensus that the rules are currently destroying
> more than they are saving.
>
> Rod.

There have only been a few straggely protests by malcontents, some of
which have turned violent and made the news.

Not even these malcontents claim the majority of the population are
behind them. In fact their usual line of argument is that the majority
is wrong.

As democracy doesn't work to favour minorities at the expense of the
majority, their line of argument turns to self-proclaimed "human
rights".

For the most part, these are psychologically unbalanced misfits who
have no sense of working towards a greater public good nor of their
own responsibility towards others.

Plank of the Week this weeks has a good item on masks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwZA_zJ9T-I

Once place where some sanity remains.

The left will enjoy POW as much as I now enjoy HIGNFY which I used to
love before it very left/woke.

Bob.

On 07/01/2022 13:12, Bob Latham wrote:
>
> Plank of the Week this weeks has a good item on masks.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwZA_zJ9T-I
>
> Once place where some sanity remains.

More like insanity ...

M i k e G r a h a m
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Graham_(journalist)

"In 2021, Graham criticised a guest on his show, a climate change
activist and carpenter, for their use of wood as a building material.
Graham claimed it was hypocritical for an environmentalist to chop down
trees and build things out of wood. When the activist responded that
trees are a sustainable source of building materials because they can be
regrown, Graham claimed it was equally possible to "grow concrete".[23]"

So naturally I'm not expecting high standards of fact and impartiality
from this video, which was lucky, because naturally I didn't get them.

After a long irrelevant spiel about the London fireworks displays -
the population of London is just under 9m, that of the rest of the UK
57.8m so their thinking that any perceived or actual cock-up wrt to the
displays and whether crowds could attend them being a national issue
shows a basic lack of numeracy - the bit about masks seemed to be
sparked off by Esther Krakue complaining that a London cabbie gave her a
lecture &/or, as I hope, refused to carry her (I didn't bother to watch
far enough to see what happened) because she wasn't wearing a mask. My
heart bleeds for the self-important little bimbo, not. In fact, I have
some advice for both her and Novak Djokovic - each put a hand in a
bucket of water, then pull it out again, and the hole that is left
behind is a measure of how important each really is, and they can bloody
well obey the rules put there for the greater safety of the population
just like anyone else.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

In article <e84gtglp0sqo8vkk8pgvrg2rb2b8tjca1b@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >I suspect most people agree that burglary should be illegal and
> >offenders prosecuted. I doubt the burglars - or reckless speeding
> >drivers - would outvote the more sensible people.
> >
> >Jim

> Of course a majority support burglary being illegal, but judging by
> newspaper comments, online presentations, and the street protests
> involving hundreds of thousands of people that have been taking place in
> many cities throughout the world (though not widely reported in the
> mainstream media for some reason) there isn't anything like the same
> level of support for the covid rules.

Erm, even accepting your "hundreds of thousands" value, none of that
establishes that more than a vociferous minority firmly oppose the rules.
You can also find 'newspapers' saying pretty much whatever you fancy. So
the above is just cherry-picking,

And the 'rules' in question will vary from country to country and with
time. So you can't bundle them all into support for your beliefs.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <665gtgt5mj9nk2egnknd1m9eakqgs3fngv@4ax.com>, Roderick
Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 15:23:33 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> >In article <s3vdtgdjnslj7gck3m6tlm68ncec57m2a9@4ax.com>, Roderick
> >Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 10:58:25 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
> >> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> >The plain truth is that masks, social distancing, regular testing,
> >> >and vaccines can and do all help provided a fair number of people
> >> >adopt these measures.
> >
> >> The plain truth is that "social distancing" is one of the most
> >> chilling Orwellian oxymorons I've ever heard.
> >
> >That may well be true for you. But to me it seems a fairly daft
> >assertion given the context of a serious infectious disease, etc.
> >
> >Jim

> As the dominant strain is now being described by those who have suffered
> it as "like a bad cold", if they even notice it at all, which some
> don't, it's no longer credible to regard it as "serious".

1) Your "by those" is rather skewed wording for the reality. Yes, the
fraction of those infected that have ended up in ICU or dying *so far* in
the UK is encouragingly lower than in the past. But that doesn't mean some
people will do so as the infected number have risen, and some eventually
get to those stages.

2) You seem to have no awareness at all of factors like the number of NHS
and care staff off the front line as the remainer are left to cope. Nor of
the impact on people needing tests, or treatments for other serious
conditions. Some of whom may end up dying.

So it is serious for those who lift there eyes above their own personal
situation.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <XnsAE188341E4BE37B93@144.76.35.252>, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been in A&E on a Friday night and seen streams of drunks arrive
> from pubs and parties. I was in a lot of pain from a kidney stone which
> later required hospitalisation but was in too much discomfort to stay in
> A&E because there was a huge backlog from of people with injuries at a
> drunken student party.

FWIW I've been in similar situations when my wife had been taken to A&E
after injuring herself during a seizure. Fortunately, back then the
ambulances came fairly quickly. Over the years we became well ken't faces,
but despite bleeding she had to wait some time for being dealt with.

Given the long delays we can expect now, it is something I worry about
recurring in present circumstances. With head wounds it can be hard to
assess what damage may have been done.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <59a710f964bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob Latham
<bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> Plank of the Week this weeks has a good item on masks.

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwZA_zJ9T-I

> Once place where some sanity remains.

> The left will enjoy POW as much as I now enjoy HIGNFY which I used to
> love before it very left/woke.

For some reason my first thought was that "Plank" here was a short form of
"Thick as 2 short planks". Does Neil Oliver feature as the expert'? For the
sake of our sanity it may be useful if you say before anyone has to risk
hearing his nonsense again.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <sr9h85$n78$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

> More like insanity ...

> M i k e G r a h a m
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Graham_(journalist)

> "In 2021, Graham criticised a guest on his show, a climate change
> activist and carpenter, for their use of wood as a building material.
> Graham claimed it was hypocritical for an environmentalist to chop down
> trees and build things out of wood. When the activist responded that
> trees are a sustainable source of building materials because they can be
> regrown, Graham claimed it was equally possible to "grow concrete".[23]"

Odd. Out of curiousity I clicked the above link and got a page telling me
the one specified doesn't exist. I've never heard of him, so wondered who
employed him as a journo.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

> "In 2021, Graham criticised a guest on his show, a climate change
> activist and carpenter, for their use of wood as a building material.
> Graham claimed it was hypocritical for an environmentalist to chop down
> trees and build things out of wood. When the activist responded that
> trees are a sustainable source of building materials because they can be
> regrown, Graham claimed it was equally possible to "grow concrete".[23]"

Do you think he might have made an "oral typo" and really meant
creosote? :-)

On 14:40 7 Jan 2022, Jim Lesurf said:
> fIn article <XnsAE188341E4BE37B93@144.76.35.252>, Pamela
> <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have been in A&E on a Friday night and seen streams of drunks
>> arrive from pubs and parties. I was in a lot of pain from a kidney
>> stone which later required hospitalisation but was in too much
>> discomfort to stay in A&E because there was a huge backlog from of
>> people with injuries at a drunken student party.
>
> FWIW I've been in similar situations when my wife had been taken to
> A&E after injuring herself during a seizure. Fortunately, back then
> the ambulances came fairly quickly. Over the years we became well
> ken't faces, but despite bleeding she had to wait some time for
> being dealt with.
>
> Given the long delays we can expect now, it is something I worry
> about recurring in present circumstances. With head wounds it can be
> hard to assess what damage may have been done.
>
> Jim

A&E and ICU are cluttered up with people who have chosen a risky course
of action despite warning to the contrary. Drunks, antivaxxers who
contract Covid, etc should have points deducted from their triage score
and be seen after people are not not ill from ignoring medical advice.

On 16:14 5 Jan 2022, Java Jive said:

> On 05/01/2022 14:00, Alexander wrote:
>
> Disinformation and fake news that has been reported to:
> a b u s e @ e t e r n a l - s e p t e m b er . o r g
>
> As far as analysis of VAERS figures goes, Alexander keeps making the
> same mistake of ascribing causality to what is merely coincidence.
> He doesn't seem to understand that such figures contain *EVERY*
> 'event' to a person that has been vaccinated, but the vast majority
> of such 'events' are merely coincidence and entirely unrelated to
> receiving a vaccine. So, for example, a person may have a vaccine,
> and three days later die in a car accident, and that may be recorded
> in these figures, but no-one is trying to claim that the vaccination
> caused the car accident. Similarly, three days after receiving a
> vaccine someone might die of heart failure, but people die of heart
> failure in their thousands every year, and some of these people will
> have received a vaccine recently, but it doesn't mean the vaccine
> caused the heart failures.
>
> Here's a previous debunking of fake figures quoted by Alexander:
>
> "Here are the VAERS numbers: Over 17,000 Americans are reported dead
> from this vaccine -- mostly from strokes, heart attacks and blood
> clots. [...] This information is all publicly available and provided
> by the CDC. This cannot be called "misleading" by anyone in the
> media. The very definition of "misleading" would be to either
> disparage or ignore VAERS and not report on it daily to your
> readers."
>
> But you can go to the link below and try and replicate the claims,
> using an online search form, and, contrary to the dubious figures
> quoted, on one example search I tried, there were no deaths at all
> reported for 'HEART INJURY' following a covid-19 vaccine:
> https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=AEC0344A
2 > CEC1C2B9D175F30D60E
>
> That's all I could check going forwards, but we can also go
> backwards:
>
> https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#vaccinations_
> vacc-total-admin-rate-total
>
> The US population is just under 330m, and currently the proportion
> of those vaccinated is ...
> 1 Dose 67%, this is the correct proportional figure to use
> 2 Doses 58%, these will be a subset of above Booster 11%, these
> will be a subset of above
>
> ... while 100,000 people die of blood clots every year, and 67% of
> that is 67,000 ...
>
> https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/dvt/infographic-impact.html
>
> ... and 659,000 people die of heart attacks every year and 67% of
> that is 442,000 ...
>
> https://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm
>
> ... and 137,000 people die of strokes every year, and 67% of that is
> 92,000.
>
> Adding up these figures, we have that in a normal 67% subset of the
> US population ...
>
> 67,000 +
> 442,000 +
> 92,000
> -------
> = 601,000
>
> ... would die of blood clots, heart attacks, or strokes in a normal
> year, which is 1,647 people a day, or over 46,000 in any given four
> week period, such as in the four week period after receiving a
> vaccine. The misleading figure of 17,000 claimed in the article is
> thus entirely explained away as being merely coincidence.

The following appeared on Twitter today (7th Jan). Seems the
anti-vaxxers have been up to their tricks once again and made
fake reports of vaccine adverse effects to VAERS, in the same way as
their web sites falsely illustrate outcomes after having a jab.

VAERS and Yellow Card databases show unverified reports of COVID-19
vaccine-related side effects and deaths that can be submitted by
anyone, according to the CDC and fact checkers

The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) in the US and
the Yellow Card scheme in the UK are two systems that people can
use to report adverse side effects of COVID-19 vaccines. The
systems are open to anyone, and are intended to provide an "early
warning for any previously unknown effects" of COVID-19 vaccines,
according to PolitiFact and Full Fact. Adverse effects and deaths
reported on these systems are not necessarily caused by COVID-19
vaccines and may be unrelated coincidences, according to the CDC.

https://twitter.com/i/events/1372684507426394114

On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 14:31:06 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
<noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <e84gtglp0sqo8vkk8pgvrg2rb2b8tjca1b@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> >I suspect most people agree that burglary should be illegal and
>> >offenders prosecuted. I doubt the burglars - or reckless speeding
>> >drivers - would outvote the more sensible people.
>> >
>> >Jim
>
>> Of course a majority support burglary being illegal, but judging by
>> newspaper comments, online presentations, and the street protests
>> involving hundreds of thousands of people that have been taking place in
>> many cities throughout the world (though not widely reported in the
>> mainstream media for some reason) there isn't anything like the same
>> level of support for the covid rules.
>
>Erm, even accepting your "hundreds of thousands" value, none of that
>establishes that more than a vociferous minority firmly oppose the rules.
>You can also find 'newspapers' saying pretty much whatever you fancy. So
>the above is just cherry-picking,
>
>And the 'rules' in question will vary from country to country and with
>time. So you can't bundle them all into support for your beliefs.
>
>Jim

Go to the Youtube home page and type "covid street protests" into the
search box, and you'll see many examples of streets and squares in
many cities from around the world filled with people as far as the
camera can see. The numbers don't look trivial. These are nothing at
all like the small ragtag bunches of obsessives who have recently been
glueing themselves to motorways on account of some issue of their own
invention. It's difficult to be sure of exact numbers, but hundreds of
thousands at each incident looks lik a reasonable estimate, and these
are just the ones who felt strongly enough and had the opportunity to
take to the streets.

I don't know how much of this has found its way into the "official"
mainstream news, or what their emphasis has been, but luckily we now
have many alternative sources of information about what's really going
on that cannot be suppressed. It seems clear that governments all
round the world have grossly misjudged the will of the people they are
supposed to be representing.

Rod.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 19:21:23 GMT, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

>A&E and ICU are cluttered up with people who have chosen a risky course
>of action despite warning to the contrary. Drunks, antivaxxers who
>contract Covid, etc should have points deducted from their triage score
>and be seen after people are not not ill from ignoring medical advice.

You are expecting doctors and nurses to make moral judgements of their
patients' behaviour - to "play God" if you like. Even if you could
persuade the medical professions that they should be doing this, in
practical terms on what evidence would you expect them to make these
judgements? This is assuning that all the relevant evidence would be
available at this stage anyway.

For example, if somebody comes into A&E battered and incoherent, or
perhaps just unconscious, what do you do? Do you simply get on with
trying to save their life, or do you ask questions about how they came
to be incapacitated so that you can make your judgment of their
priority based on whether you think it was their fault? Were they in a
car accident or a fight or whatever, were they driving, who started
the fight, did somebody else give them the poison, push them
downstairs, treat them so badly they became depressed, etc etc?

If blame needs to be apportioned for any incident, we have a system
for dealing with that. It's the job of judges and juries, not doctors.

Rod.

On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 14:35:24 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
<noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <665gtgt5mj9nk2egnknd1m9eakqgs3fngv@4ax.com>, Roderick
>Stewart
><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 15:23:33 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
>> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >In article <s3vdtgdjnslj7gck3m6tlm68ncec57m2a9@4ax.com>, Roderick
>> >Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 10:58:25 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
>> >> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >> >The plain truth is that masks, social distancing, regular testing,
>> >> >and vaccines can and do all help provided a fair number of people
>> >> >adopt these measures.
>> >
>> >> The plain truth is that "social distancing" is one of the most
>> >> chilling Orwellian oxymorons I've ever heard.
>> >
>> >That may well be true for you. But to me it seems a fairly daft
>> >assertion given the context of a serious infectious disease, etc.
>> >
>> >Jim
>
>> As the dominant strain is now being described by those who have suffered
>> it as "like a bad cold", if they even notice it at all, which some
>> don't, it's no longer credible to regard it as "serious".
>
>1) Your "by those" is rather skewed wording for the reality. Yes, the
>fraction of those infected that have ended up in ICU or dying *so far* in
>the UK is encouragingly lower than in the past. But that doesn't mean some
>people will do so as the infected number have risen, and some eventually
>get to those stages.
>
>2) You seem to have no awareness at all of factors like the number of NHS
>and care staff off the front line as the remainer are left to cope. Nor of
>the impact on people needing tests, or treatments for other serious
>conditions. Some of whom may end up dying.
>
>So it is serious for those who lift there eyes above their own personal
>situation.
>
>Jim

I don't *only* have awareness of my own situation. Like most people, I
read, I watch the news, I talk to people, and I can see what many
others have presented directly to us via the internet without being
edited by anyone else. I think I can make a reasonable judgement of
whether someone presenting an idea is an obsessive crackpot or a
qualified expert with relevant experience, because on the internet
there are plenty of both.

I don't dispute that the virus was a real threat that needed to be
dealt with, but some of the official numbers given to us are deeply
suspect. There are lies, damned lies, and statistics that can give you
any numbers you want depending on what you choose to count. For
example, perhaps you also can remember the pictures of those temporary
emergency hospitals cobbled together in vast buildings the size of
aircraft hangars because, we were told, thousands of patients were
expected - but they were never used. Why?

Rod.

In article <sslitg9t4ehnofqq8kj990qll6453hr07c@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 19:21:23 GMT, Pamela
> <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

> >A&E and ICU are cluttered up with people who have chosen a risky course
> >of action despite warning to the contrary. Drunks, antivaxxers who
> >contract Covid, etc should have points deducted from their triage score
> >and be seen after people are not not ill from ignoring medical advice.

> You are expecting doctors and nurses to make moral judgements of their
> patients' behaviour - to "play God" if you like. Even if you could
> persuade the medical professions that they should be doing this, in
> practical terms on what evidence would you expect them to make these
> judgements? This is assuning that all the relevant evidence would be
> available at this stage anyway.

> For example, if somebody comes into A&E battered and incoherent, or
> perhaps just unconscious, what do you do? Do you simply get on with
> trying to save their life, or do you ask questions about how they came
> to be incapacitated so that you can make your judgment of their
> priority based on whether you think it was their fault? Were they in a
> car accident or a fight or whatever, were they driving, who started
> the fight, did somebody else give them the poison, push them
> downstairs, treat them so badly they became depressed, etc etc?

No, you simply ask for their credit card details - as happened to my
daughter in New York. The admin people can sort out blame later.

> If blame needs to be apportioned for any incident, we have a system
> for dealing with that. It's the job of judges and juries, not doctors.

> Rod.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 19:21:23 GMT, Pamela
> <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

> >A&E and ICU are cluttered up with people who have chosen a risky
> >course of action despite warning to the contrary. Drunks,
> >antivaxxers who contract Covid, etc should have points deducted
> >from their triage score and be seen after people are not not ill
> >from ignoring medical advice.

Advocating pure evil.

Bob.

In article <48kitghclk27ecifoueqhr1glqauvuk8n4@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> Go to the Youtube home page and type "covid street protests" into
> the search box, and you'll see many examples of streets and squares
> in many cities from around the world filled with people as far as
> the camera can see. The numbers don't look trivial. These are
> nothing at all like the small ragtag bunches of obsessives who have
> recently been glueing themselves to motorways on account of some
> issue of their own invention. It's difficult to be sure of exact
> numbers, but hundreds of thousands at each incident looks lik a
> reasonable estimate, and these are just the ones who felt strongly
> enough and had the opportunity to take to the streets.

Yes, indeed perfectly true.

If you confine yourself to main stream media especially the BBC for
your news supply not only are you seeing a slanted and filtered view
of the world you're missing entire events which are deemed unsuitable
for their agenda.

That's not to say that you need to jump on everything you see on the
net, you still need trusted sources and those sources need to be
revised with experience.

> I don't know how much of this has found its way into the "official"
> mainstream news, or what their emphasis has been,

Oh I think we know.

> but luckily we now have many alternative sources of information
> about what's really going on that cannot be suppressed. It seems
> clear that governments all round the world have grossly misjudged
> the will of the people they are supposed to be representing.

Yes, indeed and it's interesting to watch increasing numbers of
journalists and medical professionals slowly distancing themselves
from lockdown mania. Some have gone so far as to admit they panicked
and got it wrong and we should have protested the vulnerable just
like the Barrington Declaration said.

It was interesting to watch a Covid ward doctor last night telling
Sajid Javid to his face (on Sky News) that he wasn't going to get
jabbed because the science wasn't there. He'd already had covid and
didn't need jabbing.

Never the less, the idiots in government are still going ahead with
sacking thousands of workers in an act of tyranny and stupidity when
the health service needs to fix cancer, heart disease etc. etc. etc.
But no, loony ideologies still hold sway.

Just to clear any misunderstanding, I never watch Sky News, it's more
biased and insane than the BBC and that's saying something, I only
see clips copied to the internet.

Bob.

In article <hdnitg1fb7tg1qpd2draukf2mka815ojnd@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 14:35:24 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> >In article <665gtgt5mj9nk2egnknd1m9eakqgs3fngv@4ax.com>, Roderick
> >Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 15:23:33 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
> >> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> >In article <s3vdtgdjnslj7gck3m6tlm68ncec57m2a9@4ax.com>, Roderick
> >> >Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >> On Thu, 06 Jan 2022 10:58:25 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
> >> >> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> >The plain truth is that masks, social distancing, regular testing,
> >> >> >and vaccines can and do all help provided a fair number of people
> >> >> >adopt these measures.
> >> >
> >> >> The plain truth is that "social distancing" is one of the most
> >> >> chilling Orwellian oxymorons I've ever heard.
> >> >
> >> >That may well be true for you. But to me it seems a fairly daft
> >> >assertion given the context of a serious infectious disease, etc.
> >> >
> >> >Jim
> >
> >> As the dominant strain is now being described by those who have
> >> suffered it as "like a bad cold", if they even notice it at all, which
> >> some don't, it's no longer credible to regard it as "serious".
> >
> >1) Your "by those" is rather skewed wording for the reality. Yes, the
> >fraction of those infected that have ended up in ICU or dying *so far*
> >in the UK is encouragingly lower than in the past. But that doesn't mean
> >some people will do so as the infected number have risen, and some
> >eventually get to those stages.
> >
> >2) You seem to have no awareness at all of factors like the number of
> >NHS and care staff off the front line as the remainer are left to cope.
> >Nor of the impact on people needing tests, or treatments for other
> >serious conditions. Some of whom may end up dying.
> >
> >So it is serious for those who lift there eyes above their own personal
> >situation.
> >
> >Jim

> I don't *only* have awareness of my own situation. Like most people, I
> read, I watch the news, I talk to people, and I can see what many others
> have presented directly to us via the internet without being edited by
> anyone else. I think I can make a reasonable judgement of whether someone
> presenting an idea is an obsessive crackpot or a qualified expert with
> relevant experience, because on the internet there are plenty of both.

> I don't dispute that the virus was a real threat that needed to be dealt
> with, but some of the official numbers given to us are deeply suspect.
> There are lies, damned lies, and statistics that can give you any numbers
> you want depending on what you choose to count. For example, perhaps you
> also can remember the pictures of those temporary emergency hospitals
> cobbled together in vast buildings the size of aircraft hangars because,
> we were told, thousands of patients were expected - but they were never
> used. Why?

That's easy - no staff. You can't just magic staff our of thin air.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article <XnsAE18C4E764F2F37B93@144.76.35.252>, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

> A&E and ICU are cluttered up with people who have chosen a risky course
> of action despite warning to the contrary. Drunks, antivaxxers who
> contract Covid, etc should have points deducted from their triage score
> and be seen after people are not not ill from ignoring medical advice.

It might be nice in a way if hospitals had 'donation boxes for idiots'. So
that people with self-inflicted-by-selfishness/arrogance problems could pop
a few quid in that the staff could then share out later. Sadly, those who
should pay up would probably also be the group who'd regard it as their
'right' to behave in such ways and get 'free' care for the predictable
consequences.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <48kitghclk27ecifoueqhr1glqauvuk8n4@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2022 14:31:06 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> >In article <e84gtglp0sqo8vkk8pgvrg2rb2b8tjca1b@4ax.com>, Roderick
> >Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >I suspect most people agree that burglary should be illegal and
> >> >offenders prosecuted. I doubt the burglars - or reckless speeding
> >> >drivers - would outvote the more sensible people.
> >> >
> >> >Jim
> >
> >> Of course a majority support burglary being illegal, but judging by
> >> newspaper comments, online presentations, and the street protests
> >> involving hundreds of thousands of people that have been taking place
> >> in many cities throughout the world (though not widely reported in
> >> the mainstream media for some reason) there isn't anything like the
> >> same level of support for the covid rules.
> >
> >Erm, even accepting your "hundreds of thousands" value, none of that
> >establishes that more than a vociferous minority firmly oppose the
> >rules. You can also find 'newspapers' saying pretty much whatever you
> >fancy. So the above is just cherry-picking,
> >
> >And the 'rules' in question will vary from country to country and with
> >time. So you can't bundle them all into support for your beliefs.
> >
> >Jim

> Go to the Youtube home page and type "covid street protests" into the
> search box, and you'll see many examples of streets and squares in many
> cities from around the world filled with people as far as the camera can
> see. The numbers don't look trivial.

How many billions of different people do they show, accordinging to
reliable checkers who were present - e.g. the police. What fraction of the
Earth's popuation does that come to when they remove multiple counting of
people who appear in more than photo/video?

Yes, when you look at something like the 'riot' at the fooball game that
made the recent England game a disgrace you can see a 'lot' of people. But
it is trivial compared to the population of planet Earth.

> These are nothing at all like the
> small ragtag bunches of obsessives who have recently been glueing
> themselves to motorways on account of some issue of their own invention.
> It's difficult to be sure of exact numbers, but hundreds of thousands at
> each incident looks lik a reasonable estimate, and these are just the
> ones who felt strongly enough and had the opportunity to take to the
> streets.

So say a million, compared with billions. Make it ten million if you
prefer. Still a tiny fraction of the world population. And relying on
'evidence' via yootube videos. Of course, no one would *ever* fake or
misdescribe those, would they?! yootoob is world renowned for its reliable
checking of veracity before allowing videos to appear, eh?

Afraid you're just following Bob's method. Simply cherry-pick things that
'show' whatever you want to believe is 'true'.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html