In article <xn0nj2h5omusm8b002@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
<jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Views and opinions cannot be "lies" by definition

The can if the person spounting them actually - despite apprearances -
knows they are false. If they don't, they may merely be stubbornly deluded
or a dim bulb. Take yer pick. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 14/06/2022 in message <59f85a8ef5noise@audiomisc.co.uk> Jim Lesurf wrote:

>In article <xn0nj2h5omusm8b002@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
><jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Views and opinions cannot be "lies" by definition
>
>The can if the person spounting them actually - despite apprearances -
>knows they are false. If they don't, they may merely be stubbornly deluded
>or a dim bulb. Take yer pick. :-)
>
>Jim

This indicates your problem (and that of your monkey) exactly. Views or
opinions cannot by definition be false or wrong. You, and others, can
disagree with them but saying the are wrong is ludicrous. Do a bit of
research, start with some definitions.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
It may be that your sole purpose in life is to serve as a warning to others.

In article <xn0nj541tph7oo500g@news.individual.net>,
Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>This indicates your problem (and that of your monkey) exactly. Views or
>opinions cannot by definition be false or wrong.

Sounds like you have your own special definitions.

-- Richard

On 15/06/2022 in message <t8c8g5$2r0l$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk> Richard Tobin
wrote:

>In article <xn0nj541tph7oo500g@news.individual.net>,
>Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>This indicates your problem (and that of your monkey) exactly. Views or
>>opinions cannot by definition be false or wrong.
>
>Sounds like you have your own special definitions.

Nope but I used to listen to the marketing people very closely, they are
the people who understand views & opinions and charge lots of money for
trying to get people to change them.

Have a look at Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
I've been through the desert on a horse with no name.
It was a right bugger to get him back when he ran off.

In article <xn0nj56jlpkoe2700h@news.individual.net>,
Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>>>This indicates your problem (and that of your monkey) exactly. Views or
>>>opinions cannot by definition be false or wrong.

>>Sounds like you have your own special definitions.

>Nope but I used to listen to the marketing people very closely

It's my opinion that you're nuts. Is that wrong?

-- Richard

On 15/06/2022 12:25, Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <xn0nj56jlpkoe2700h@news.individual.net>,
> Jeff Gaines <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> This indicates your problem (and that of your monkey) exactly. Views or
>>>> opinions cannot by definition be false or wrong.
>
>>> Sounds like you have your own special definitions.
>
>> Nope but I used to listen to the marketing people very closely
>
> It's my opinion that you're nuts. Is that wrong?

It's my opinion that he's just another liar. Easy end of story.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

In article <t8c8g5$2r0l$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk>, Richard Tobin
<richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> In article <xn0nj541tph7oo500g@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
> <jgaines_newsid@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> >This indicates your problem (and that of your monkey) exactly. Views
> >or opinions cannot by definition be false or wrong.

> Sounds like you have your own special definitions.

I recall reading that at one time some held the "view" that travelling much
faster than a horse could gallop would cause them to lose consciousness as
the air whooshed out of their lungs. This view turned out to be false.

Some engineers have built bridges, planes, etc, with the "view" that they
were safe and satisfactory - only for them to fail alarmingly. Their "view"
turned out to be wrong.

Indeed. It was once a "view" that the world was flat. Also turns out to be
false. Although some people may well still hold to that delusion - or
simply redefine "flat" to suit them. Either way, risking misleading others.

Maybe Jeff lives in the same Wonderland as Alice where words mean whatever
*he* decides they mean.

But back in the real world, any "views" may run up against mere facts that
show that "view" to be what academics call bollox.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 15/06/2022 in message <t8cfj6$2uqk$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk> Richard Tobin
wrote:

>It's my opinion that you're nuts. Is that wrong?

Probably going that way but you're perfectly entitled to hold that opinion
which is the point I have made time and time again but there are some
people who don't want to understand.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Have you ever noticed that all the instruments searching for intelligent
life are pointing away from Earth?

On 15/06/2022 14:36, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> On 15/06/2022 in message <t8cfj6$2uqk$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk> Richard
> Tobin wrote:
>>
>> It's my opinion that you're nuts. Is that wrong?
>
> Probably going that way but you're perfectly entitled to hold that
> opinion which is the point I have made time and time again but there are
> some people who don't want to understand.

There are some people who understand perfectly well that wilfullyt
voicing opinions or views that don't accord with reality is just lying.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 15/06/2022 in message <t8davo$6np$1@dont-email.me> Lew wrote:

>On 15/06/2022 10:22, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>>Views or opinions cannot by definition be false or wrong. You, and others,
>>can disagree with them but saying the are wrong is ludicrous. Do a bit of
>> research, start with some definitions.
>
>Chambers Dictionary has views and opinions as what seems to be true, a
>judgement or estimation. Nothing there or any other Dictionary to suggest
>that they cannot be false or wrong, though it would depend on context. An
>aesthetic judgement for example is unlikely to be shown false or true. On
>the other hand, your opinion above is false and this statement is true.

I still have my paper copy of Chambers, cost 27/6 way back when. Anyway
the online version says:

"opinion noun 1 a belief or judgement which seems likely to be true, but
which is not based on proof. 2 (usually opinion on or about something)
what one thinks about it. 3 a professional judgement given by an expert
• medical opinion. 4 estimation or appreciation • has a high opinion
of himself. a matter of opinion a matter about which people have different
opinions. be of the opinion that ... to think or believe that ....
ETYMOLOGY: 13c: from Latin opinion belief, from opinari to believe."

As you can see an opinion cannot be judged true or false because it is
exactly what it says, an opinion. Really unless you are willing to
understand that you are just wasting everybody's time.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
George Washington was a British subject until well after his 40th birthday.
(Margaret Thatcher, speech at the White House 17 December 1979)

On 15/06/2022 22:48, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> I still have my paper copy of Chambers, cost 27/6 way back when. Anyway
> the online version says:
>
> "opinion noun 1 a belief or judgement which seems likely to be true, but
> which is not based on proof. 2 (usually opinion on or about something)
> what one thinks about it. 3 a professional judgement given by an expert
> • medical opinion. 4 estimation or appreciation • has a high opinion of
> himself. a matter of opinion a matter about which people have different
> opinions. be of the opinion that ... to think or believe that ....
> ETYMOLOGY: 13c: from Latin opinion belief, from opinari to believe."

The first and most usual meaning is the first above, a "judgement which
seems likely to be true".

> As you can see an opinion cannot be judged true or false because it is
> exactly what it says, an opinion.

You haven't grasped the paradox that for that opinion to have any
meaning it must be true.

--
Lew

On 15/06/2022 in message <t8dlqs$k8f$1@dont-email.me> Lew wrote:

>On 15/06/2022 22:48, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>>I still have my paper copy of Chambers, cost 27/6 way back when. Anyway
>>the online version says:
>>
>>"opinion noun 1 a belief or judgement which seems likely to be true, but
>>which is not based on proof. 2 (usually opinion on or about something)
>>what one thinks about it. 3 a professional judgement given by an expert
>>• medical opinion. 4 estimation or appreciation • has a high opinion
>>of himself. a matter of opinion a matter about which people have
>>different opinions. be of the opinion that ... to think or believe that
>>....
>>ETYMOLOGY: 13c: from Latin opinion belief, from opinari to believe."
>
>The first and most usual meaning is the first above, a "judgement which
>seems likely to be true".
>
>>As you can see an opinion cannot be judged true or false because it is
>>exactly what it says, an opinion.
>
>You haven't grasped the paradox that for that opinion to have any meaning
>it must be true.

No, that's your problem, you won't accept that that is incorrect. Some
people will agree with an opinion others will disagree, there is no
element of right or wrong there can't be it's an opinion it's not fact
based - see 2 above, 'what one thinks about it'. You really have to try
and understand that to have a meaningful discussion.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
You can't tell which way the train went by looking at the tracks

On 15/06/2022 22:48, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> > On 15/06/2022 in message <t8davo$6np$1@dont-email.me> Lew wrote:
>>
>> On 15/06/2022 10:22, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> Views or opinions cannot by definition be false or wrong. You, and
>>> others, can  disagree with them but saying the are wrong is
>>> ludicrous. Do a bit of  research, start with some definitions.
>>
>> Chambers Dictionary has views and opinions as what seems to be true, a
>> judgement or estimation. Nothing there or any other Dictionary to
>> suggest that they cannot be false or wrong, though it would depend on
>> context. An aesthetic judgement for example is unlikely to be shown
>> false or true. On the other hand, your opinion above is false and this
>> statement is true.
>
> I still have my paper copy of Chambers, cost 27/6 way back when. Anyway
> the online version says:
>
> "opinion noun 1 a belief or judgement which seems likely to be true, but
> which is not based on proof. 2 (usually opinion on or about something)
> what one thinks about it. 3 a professional judgement given by an expert
> • medical opinion. 4 estimation or appreciation • has a high opinion of
> himself. a matter of opinion a matter about which people have different
> opinions. be of the opinion that ... to think or believe that ....
> ETYMOLOGY: 13c: from Latin opinion belief, from opinari to believe."
>
> As you can see an opinion cannot be judged true or false because it is
> exactly what it says, an opinion. Really unless you are willing to
> understand that you are just wasting everybody's time.

Yawn, more bullshit. You expressed an 'opinion' or 'view', it doesn't
matter what it is called, that was then proved to be untrue, and then
restated that 'opinion' or 'view' as if it were true. That is lying in
anyone's dictionary, even yours.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 15/06/2022 23:31, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 15/06/2022 in message <t8dlqs$k8f$1@dont-email.me> Lew wrote:
>
>> On 15/06/2022 22:48, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>>> I still have my paper copy of Chambers, cost 27/6 way back when.
>>> Anyway the online version says:
>>>
>>> "opinion noun 1 a belief or judgement which seems likely to be true,
>>> but which is not based on proof. 2 (usually opinion on or about
>>> something) what one thinks about it. 3 a professional judgement given
>>> by an expert • medical opinion. 4 estimation or appreciation • has a
>>> high opinion of  himself. a matter of opinion a matter about which
>>> people have different  opinions. be of the opinion that ... to think
>>> or believe that ....
>>> ETYMOLOGY: 13c: from Latin opinion belief, from opinari to believe."
>>
>> The first and most usual meaning is the first above, a "judgement
>> which seems likely to be true".
>>
>>> As you can see an opinion cannot be judged true or false because it
>>> is exactly what it says, an opinion.
>>
>> You haven't grasped the paradox that for that opinion to have any
>> meaning it must be true.
>
> No, that's your problem,

Not even fellow Brexshitters are supporting you in your attempt to
change the meaning of commonly used English words, just to avoid losing
an argument.

You stated an opinion, it was then shown to be untrue, and you then
restated it as if it were true - that is lying.

You and others need to start basing your beliefs on *EVIDENCE*, not
bigoted wishful thinking.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 00:53:23 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

>Yawn, more bullshit. You expressed an 'opinion' or 'view', it doesn't
>matter what it is called, that was then proved to be untrue, and then
>restated that 'opinion' or 'view' as if it were true. That is lying in
>anyone's dictionary, even yours.

In my dictionary a lie is an intentionally false statement, or a
deception. A deliberate deception is not quite the same as simply
misunderstanding something and getting it wrong.

Rod.

On 16/06/2022 in message <t8drjs$jcu$1@dont-email.me> Java Jive wrote:

>You stated an opinion, it was then shown to be untrue, and you then
>restated it as if it were true - that is lying.

Until you understand that an opinion cannot be untrue you are wasting
everybody's time.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
George Washington was a British subject until well after his 40th birthday.
(Margaret Thatcher, speech at the White House 17 December 1979)

On 16/06/2022 in message <t8drdl$ien$1@dont-email.me> Java Jive wrote:

>Yawn, more bullshit. You expressed an 'opinion' or 'view', it doesn't
>matter what it is called, that was then proved to be untrue, and then
>restated that 'opinion' or 'view' as if it were true. That is lying in
>anyone's dictionary, even yours.

Until you understand that an opinion cannot be untrue you are wasting
everybody's time.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There are 3 types of people in this world. Those who can count, and those
who can't.

On 15/06/2022 20:12, Lew wrote:
> On 15/06/2022 10:22, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>> Views or opinions cannot by definition be false or wrong. You, and
>> others, can disagree with them but saying the are wrong is ludicrous.
>> Do a bit of research, start with some definitions.
>
> Chambers Dictionary has views and opinions as what seems to be true, a
> judgement or estimation. Nothing there or any other Dictionary to
> suggest that they cannot be false or wrong, though it would depend on
> context. An aesthetic judgement for example is unlikely to be shown
> false or true. On the other hand, your opinion above is false and this
> statement is true.

We had a dictionary at home (collected in fortnightly instalments [1])
which defined jazz as "a noisy, discordant kind of music" and a currant
bun as "a bun with few or no currants".

[1] Lots of books were sold that way. Before WW2, instead of sending
away for a flimsy binder that the sections fell out of, you sent the
parts back to the publisher who bound it professionally so it just
looked like a proper book. Everyday magazines were bound in the same
way. In the house there used to be two volumes of a magazine called
Amateur Mechanic which was a DiY magazine before the term was
coined/popular - I think it dated from around 1918. It had an article
about "wireless communication" including "radio" (a ULW crystal set).
The articles were very wide ranging including stuffing animals. (No
sniggering at the back).

--
Max Demian

On 15/06/2022 05:29 pm, Java Jive wrote:
> On 15/06/2022 14:36, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>> On 15/06/2022 in message <t8cfj6$2uqk$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk> Richard
>> Tobin wrote:
>>>
>>> It's my opinion that you're nuts. Is that wrong?
>>
>> Probably going that way but you're perfectly entitled to hold that
>> opinion which is the point I have made time and time again but there
>> are some people who don't want to understand.
>
> There are some people who understand perfectly well that wilfullyt
> voicing opinions or views that don't accord with reality is just lying.

While I am far too polite to do so, if I were to voice my honestly-held
opinion of you, you would say that it was a lie.

But it wouldn't be.

On 15/06/2022 11:17 pm, Lew wrote:
> On 15/06/2022 22:48, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>> I still have my paper copy of Chambers, cost 27/6 way back when.
>> Anyway the online version says:
>>
>> "opinion noun 1 a belief or judgement which seems likely to be true,
>> but which is not based on proof. 2 (usually opinion on or about
>> something) what one thinks about it. 3 a professional judgement given
>> by an expert • medical opinion. 4 estimation or appreciation • has a
>> high opinion of himself. a matter of opinion a matter about which
>> people have different opinions. be of the opinion that ... to think or
>> believe that ....
>> ETYMOLOGY: 13c: from Latin opinion belief, from opinari to believe."
>
> The first and most usual meaning is the first above, a "judgement which
> seems likely to be true".
>
>> As you can see an opinion cannot be judged true or false because it is
>> exactly what it says, an opinion.
>
> You haven't grasped the paradox that for that opinion to have any
> meaning it must be true.

Why does an opinion have to have meaning for anyone but the opinion-holder?

On 16/06/2022 08:33 am, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> On 16/06/2022 in message <t8drjs$jcu$1@dont-email.me> Java Jive wrote:
>
>> You stated an opinion, it was then shown to be untrue, and you then
>> restated it as if it were true  -  that is lying.
>
> Until you understand that an opinion cannot be untrue you are wasting
> everybody's time.

Only if you let him.

DFTFs.

On 16/06/2022 12:20 pm, JNugent wrote:
> On 16/06/2022 08:33 am, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>> On 16/06/2022 in message <t8drjs$jcu$1@dont-email.me> Java Jive wrote:
>>
>>> You stated an opinion, it was then shown to be untrue, and you then
>>> restated it as if it were true  -  that is lying.
>>
>> Until you understand that an opinion cannot be untrue you are wasting
>> everybody's time.
>
> Only if you let him.
>
> DFTFs.

Sorry... that should have been DFTTs.

On 16/06/2022 in message <jh0hvlFbmatU4@mid.individual.net> JNugent wrote:

>On 16/06/2022 08:33 am, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>>On 16/06/2022 in message <t8drjs$jcu$1@dont-email.me> Java Jive wrote:
>>
>>>You stated an opinion, it was then shown to be untrue, and you then
>>>restated it as if it were true  -  that is lying.
>>
>>Until you understand that an opinion cannot be untrue you are wasting
>>everybody's time.
>
>Only if you let him.
>
>DFTFs.

Yes, sorry, I will stop.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
That's an amazing invention but who would ever want to use one of them?
(President Hayes speaking to Alexander Graham Bell on the invention of the
telephone)

On 16/06/2022 08:33, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 16/06/2022 in message <t8drjs$jcu$1@dont-email.me> Java Jive wrote:
>
>> You stated an opinion, it was then shown to be untrue, and you then
>> restated it as if it were true  -  that is lying.
>
> Until you understand that an opinion cannot be untrue you are wasting
> everybody's time.

Until you understand that yours was shown to be untrue by others
supplying contrary *EVIDENCE*, you are wasting everybody's time.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 16/06/2022 06:50, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jun 2022 00:53:23 +0100, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> Yawn, more bullshit. You expressed an 'opinion' or 'view', it doesn't
>> matter what it is called, that was then proved to be untrue, and then
>> restated that 'opinion' or 'view' as if it were true. That is lying in
>> anyone's dictionary, even yours.
>
> In my dictionary a lie is an intentionally false statement, or a
> deception. A deliberate deception is not quite the same as simply
> misunderstanding something and getting it wrong.

That would be fine if he just voiced an opinion which was then shown to
be untrue, and never voiced it again thereafter - nobody would call
that lying. The problem is that, despite being shown, I think it was
around 13, links to information that shown his opinion to be false, he
then insisted on restating it, and that is lying.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk