In article <td7vdj$2qe6t$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
<bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
> On 12/08/2022 10:31, Angus Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd wrote:
> >> As the wires are already in place, I can't see any reason to replace
> >> them with fibre, and I can't see any customer benefit to changing to
> >> VOIP.
> >
> > Those wires are 50 to 100 years old, connected to telephone exchanges
> > designed 50 years ago and for which spare parts are no longer available
> > and 100,000 aging street cabinets. Even the early FTTC street cabinets
> > installed almost 20 years ago are reaching end of life.
> >
> > Those exchanges also occupy 5,000 buildings around the country that
> > cost a lot to maintain and run, and have already been replaced by a few
> > hundred newer buildings.
> >
> > Angus

> You didn't read what I said.

> My VIRGINMEDIA cables are about 20 years old. The VM cabinet at the end
> of my road is of similar vintage, the main Headend is perhaps 5 years
> older.

> 20 years is not a long time for a street cabinet to be in use.

> Jim

It is when it's full of electronics

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 13/08/2022 12:15, Max Demian wrote:
> Neither PlusNet nor BT have anything about the digital phone switchover
> on their websites, and the Openreach one not much detail.

BT do, although the fact that it will not be optional is maybe a little
concealed: <https://www.bt.com/broadband/digital-voice>. That page does
say, pretty explicitly: "That outdated network will be switched off for
all phone providers by 2025."

However, coming back closer to the original subject, it is a
characteristic of most private enterprises that they don't provide much
technical detail, especially if it reveals things that inconvenience the
customer. Everything has to be in marketing terms, which must always be
positive towards their product.

Openreach is aimed at telecoms providers, not telecoms consumers.

On 11/08/2022 11:36, Bob Latham wrote:

> That's why we get hose pipe bans because the service doesn't matter,
> only profits do. So leaks don't get properly fixed and de-salination
> plants sit idle.

That could be tackled if Ofwat was given sufficient teeth.

If the volume of water lost through leaks is priced at domestic water
meter rates and added to the company accounts as notional income, the
notional profits become taxable. This leaves the accountants with the
simple decision of whether to invest in fixing leaks or to pay tax on
the consequences of inaction. The worst offenders would be the hardest
hit, which makes it an ideal solution.

Jim

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 11:44:31 +0100, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
wrote:

[...]
>I think you are refusing to accept that many simply don't want a
>landline. As I said elsewhere I don't know of any one under 30 with a
>phone in their landline socket.

I'm quite happy to accept that not everyone wants a landline. I've
never disputed this. Nobody is forced to have a landline if they don't
want it.

But if somebody *already* has a landline, they may not want to give it
up as part of the upgrade to fibre. It's possible to keep your
landline number and use it over the fibre service (I've done it) but
it's slightly more complicated than an oldfashioned passive phone
plugged into a copper cable, and this may put some people off from
considering the upgrade until it's forced upon them.

Keeping a mobile for emergency calls is a sensible solution if it's
available, but not everyone has the option.

Rod.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:03:20 +0100, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
wrote:

>On 12/08/2022 17:41, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 12:42:35 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Me, I’d just take Internet service and route my voice calls over Sipgate
>>> and provide my own ATA. Sipgate for a simple service charge £0/month and
>>> about 2p/minute for landline destined calls. The likes of Zen and BT try to
>>> charge around £7/month, albeit with some level of bundled calls.
>>
>> Zen's £7 per month is cheaper than the £15 per month line rental that
>> it replaces. Also, the modem/router that they provided (free) includes
>> a phone socket, into which I plugged my existing phone without
>> configuring anything, and it just works as before.
>
>but could you ditch that and save £7/month? If so many will...
>
>>
>> Rod.
>
>Dave

Yes I could. I chose to keep it because I've had that number for so
many years that for some people it will be the only method they know
for contacting me. That's my decision. I can change it any time.
Others may reach a different decision. Anybody who wants fibre
internet without a phone can have it.

Rod.

On 13/08/2022 12:42, Indy Jess John wrote:
> That could be tackled if Ofwat was given sufficient teeth.

The people who adhere to the market is best doctrine also tend to belong
to the small government one, and are therefore against regulation, as
well as public ownership.

On 12/08/2022 10:45, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> One of the basic problems is that the new arrangements don't really provide
> for supporting 999 calls during a power cut. Or, indeed, calls to you
> electricity supplier! They basically take for granted the people will have
> a 'mobile' as well. Which not everyone has in reality.

I thought a lot of the Virgin last mile infrastructure was already
unable to survive a power cut.

Of course the big problem, where the exchange currently provides the
power, is that the people most likely to need to call 999 are often
those who have lost the ability to cope with new technology, whether or
not they have a formal dementia diagnosis.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:15:23 +0100, Max Demian
<max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>I don't mind changing to FTTC as I expect it won't
>cost any more. I need to do it in such a way that I can keep my PlusNet
>email address and webspace, which is a legacy benefit.

As long as you stay with Plusnet, I don't see why those things would
be affected in any way. You'd be using different hardware to access
your internet account, but it would still be the same account. If you
have any doubts you could ask them, but if you've already upgraded
from dial-up to ADSL, or ADSL to VDSL, you probably kept all your
account details then, so why would this be different?

It's just VOIP phone that different ISPs seem to be covering in
different ways, or in some cases not at all.

Rod.

In article <ipvefh1h26ujne3rdtsmd1m4028ji2ntgo@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 08:20:47 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

> >I find it hard to believe that BT will be allowed to remove voice
> >services without providing a replacement. It might pass over fibre but
> >will have to be able to feed a telephone.
> >
> >The big problem for most people is having provide it with a mains supply.

> What is the problem with the provision of a mains supply?

> Is it 1). The availability of a mains socket close to where the fibre
> terminal is installed, because it replaces a passive connector box
> that didn't need one?

> Or 2). The continued function of the equipment in a power cut?

> 1). only requires cabling, which in many cases will already be
> present. If the fibre service replaces ADSL or VDSL, then there must
> already be a router, which must be powered somehow. More than likely
> the phone is a cordless one that will have to be powered too, so its
> dependency on a new powered terminal doesn't introduce a new problem.

> 2). is easily catered for with a UPS. Search for "UPS" or
> "Uninterruptible Power supply" on Amazon to see the variety already
> available. You can get big ones to power computers, or little low
> voltage ones that will just power the router and optical terminal so
> you can still use your laptop or tablet till the power is restored.

> A problem is only a problem until it's solved.

> Rod.

We have been without power for about 14 hours- my laptop mwouldn't have
kept going that long - but some people were without power for 4 or 5 days
earlier this year. A UPS wouldn't be much use for that length of time.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

> > 20 years is not a long time for a street cabinet to be in use.
>
> It is when it's full of electronics

And when Cisco has stopped selling the DOCSIS routers that feed the fibre to
those cabinets, and Northern Telecom has abandoned the telephone concentrators
in those cabinets. The lead acid batteries have probably never been replaced
in 20 to 30 years, probably stolen for the lead.

Changing everything to passive fibre is so much easier and more reliable, but
does need a visit to every house over the next few years.

Angus

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:36:42 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

>In article <ipvefh1h26ujne3rdtsmd1m4028ji2ntgo@4ax.com>,
> Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 08:20:47 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> >I find it hard to believe that BT will be allowed to remove voice
>> >services without providing a replacement. It might pass over fibre but
>> >will have to be able to feed a telephone.
>> >
>> >The big problem for most people is having provide it with a mains supply.
>
>> What is the problem with the provision of a mains supply?
>
>> Is it 1). The availability of a mains socket close to where the fibre
>> terminal is installed, because it replaces a passive connector box
>> that didn't need one?
>
>> Or 2). The continued function of the equipment in a power cut?
>
>> 1). only requires cabling, which in many cases will already be
>> present. If the fibre service replaces ADSL or VDSL, then there must
>> already be a router, which must be powered somehow. More than likely
>> the phone is a cordless one that will have to be powered too, so its
>> dependency on a new powered terminal doesn't introduce a new problem.
>
>> 2). is easily catered for with a UPS. Search for "UPS" or
>> "Uninterruptible Power supply" on Amazon to see the variety already
>> available. You can get big ones to power computers, or little low
>> voltage ones that will just power the router and optical terminal so
>> you can still use your laptop or tablet till the power is restored.
>
>> A problem is only a problem until it's solved.
>
>> Rod.
>
>We have been without power for about 14 hours- my laptop mwouldn't have
>kept going that long - but some people were without power for 4 or 5 days
>earlier this year. A UPS wouldn't be much use for that length of time.

If power cuts are that much of a problem where you live, you might
want to consider bigger batteries, or even a generator. Take
precautions appropriate to your circumstances.

I can only recall two power cuts of a few hours each in the thirty
years or so that I've lived here, so I haven't bothered. If they'd
been more frequent I might have some sort of backup system in place by
now, but if they lasted for days, I suspect that loss of internet
might be the least of my worries.

Rod.

In article <td84ds$2qsag$1@dont-email.me>,
David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> On 13/08/2022 12:42, Indy Jess John wrote:
> > That could be tackled if Ofwat was given sufficient teeth.

> The people who adhere to the market is best doctrine also tend to
> belong to the small government one, and are therefore against
> regulation, as well as public ownership.

*Generally* I think the market is best.

*Generally* I think small government is best and certainly ones that
spend within their budget and don't use high taxation. The current
government has over taxed and over spent and the repercussions will
harm us for many years.

Regulation is one of the measures often necessary to make capitalism
work for everyone in a fair manner. Unfortunately, at the moment most
of the regulators appear to be hopeless, money pit quangos which are
often political rather than public minded.

Public or private isn't the issue, competition is. Large monopolies
are as far as I can see, nearly always basket cases.

Bob.

In article <3j8ffhd4imknnkt1r9tj1hjf8o7c5g3cr5@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:36:42 +0100, charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
> wrote:

> >In article <ipvefh1h26ujne3rdtsmd1m4028ji2ntgo@4ax.com>,
> > Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 08:20:47 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> >
> >> >I find it hard to believe that BT will be allowed to remove voice
> >> >services without providing a replacement. It might pass over fibre but
> >> >will have to be able to feed a telephone.
> >> >
> >> >The big problem for most people is having provide it with a mains supply.
> >
> >> What is the problem with the provision of a mains supply?
> >
> >> Is it 1). The availability of a mains socket close to where the fibre
> >> terminal is installed, because it replaces a passive connector box
> >> that didn't need one?
> >
> >> Or 2). The continued function of the equipment in a power cut?
> >
> >> 1). only requires cabling, which in many cases will already be
> >> present. If the fibre service replaces ADSL or VDSL, then there must
> >> already be a router, which must be powered somehow. More than likely
> >> the phone is a cordless one that will have to be powered too, so its
> >> dependency on a new powered terminal doesn't introduce a new problem.
> >
> >> 2). is easily catered for with a UPS. Search for "UPS" or
> >> "Uninterruptible Power supply" on Amazon to see the variety already
> >> available. You can get big ones to power computers, or little low
> >> voltage ones that will just power the router and optical terminal so
> >> you can still use your laptop or tablet till the power is restored.
> >
> >> A problem is only a problem until it's solved.
> >
> >> Rod.
> >
> >We have been without power for about 14 hours- my laptop mwouldn't have
> >kept going that long - but some people were without power for 4 or 5 days
> >earlier this year. A UPS wouldn't be much use for that length of time.

> If power cuts are that much of a problem where you live, you might
> want to consider bigger batteries, or even a generator. Take
> precautions appropriate to your circumstances.

My power cut was caused by a local builder trying to remove a tree.
Unfortunately, it ha its roots wrapped round a power cable which fed 5
house (ours included). The Supply company got a generator to us at about
2am. Luckily i's not a reulat occurance.

> I can only recall two power cuts of a few hours each in the thirty
> years or so that I've lived here, so I haven't bothered. If they'd
> been more frequent I might have some sort of backup system in place by
> now, but if they lasted for days, I suspect that loss of internet
> might be the least of my worries.

> Rod.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 13/08/2022 12:36, charles wrote:
> We have been without power for about 14 hours- my laptop mwouldn't have
> kept going that long - but some people were without power for 4 or 5 days
> earlier this year. A UPS wouldn't be much use for that length of time.

Isn't that what cars are for (unless you are unlucky to have a battery
one). :-)

On 13/08/2022 12:42, Indy Jess John wrote:
> If the volume of water lost through leaks is priced at domestic water
> meter rates and added to the company accounts as notional income, the
> notional profits become taxable. This leaves the accountants with the
> simple decision of whether to invest in fixing leaks or to pay tax on
> the consequences of inaction. The worst offenders would be the hardest
> hit, which makes it an ideal solution.

From everything that I have read they are trying to clear the backlog
but most because of the days when the water industry was state owned and
there was little investment. Been much more investment since
privatisation.

On 13/08/2022 13:16, David Woolley wrote:
> Of course the big problem, where the exchange currently provides the
> power, is that the people most likely to need to call 999 are often
> those who have lost the ability to cope with new technology, whether or
> not they have a formal dementia diagnosis.

Watching young people on TV, many seem closer to dementia than many
older people. They can rarer speak properly, they might be able to get
onto various online sites but havd very limited technical knowledge.

On 13/08/2022 15:52, MB wrote:
>
> On 13/08/2022 12:42, Indy Jess John wrote:
>>
>> If the volume of water lost through leaks is priced at domestic water
>> meter rates and added to the company accounts as notional income, the
>> notional profits become taxable. This leaves the accountants with the
>> simple decision of whether to invest in fixing leaks or to pay tax on
>> the consequences of inaction. The worst offenders would be the hardest
>> hit, which makes it an ideal solution.
>
> From everything that I have read they are trying to clear the backlog
> but most because of the days when the water industry was state owned and
> there was little investment.  Been much more investment since
> privatisation.

Again political claims made without any supporting provenance, when are
you going to learn to supply *EVIDENCE* for your claims?

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

In article <td8dmh$2rnre$1@dont-email.me>,
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 13/08/2022 12:36, charles wrote:
> > We have been without power for about 14 hours- my laptop mwouldn't have
> > kept going that long - but some people were without power for 4 or 5 days
> > earlier this year. A UPS wouldn't be much use for that length of time.

> Isn't that what cars are for (unless you are unlucky to have a battery
> one). :-)

A car could help, if you had enough petrol. I do have a 12v inverter if I
really neded it.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <td8dmh$2rnre$1@dont-email.me>,
> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 13/08/2022 12:36, charles wrote:
>>> We have been without power for about 14 hours- my laptop mwouldn't have
>>> kept going that long - but some people were without power for 4 or 5 days
>>> earlier this year. A UPS wouldn't be much use for that length of time.
>
>> Isn't that what cars are for (unless you are unlucky to have a battery
>> one). :-)
>
> A car could help, if you had enough petrol. I do have a 12v inverter if I
> really neded it.
>

To cope with a power cut the simple solution is a battery pack that is
activated only when the emergency call needs to be made. No need for a UPS
to keep things running continuously. Clearly some work needs to be done to
make the equipment boot and sync faster than currently.

I’ll point out again that Finland has scrapped copper lines in rural areas,
some 5 years ago now. Most people rely on cellular. The world hasn’t come
to an end and there aren’t hoards of dying pensioners as a result. You can
even buy cellular based desk phones in the same form factor as a corded
phone, with battery backup incorporated for those that can’t cope with
fiddly standard sized mobile phones.

On 13/08/2022 12:38, David Woolley wrote:
> On 13/08/2022 12:15, Max Demian wrote:
>> Neither PlusNet nor BT have anything about the digital phone
>> switchover on their websites, and the Openreach one not much detail.
>
> BT do, although the fact that it will not be optional is maybe a little
> concealed: <https://www.bt.com/broadband/digital-voice>.  That page does
> say, pretty explicitly: "That outdated network will be switched off for
> all phone providers by 2025."

That page seems to assume both voice and broadband are from BT, with
"You simply plug your phone into a Smart Hub..."

> However, coming back closer to the original subject, it is a
> characteristic of most private enterprises that they don't provide much
> technical detail, especially if it reveals things that inconvenience the
> customer.  Everything has to be in marketing terms, which must always be
> positive towards their product.

Yes, I spoke to a BT man who happened to call at the place, but he was
entirely sales oriented and seemed to think that "engineers" would sort
out how fibre would get to, and into the block, without knowing how. He
also assumed I would change to BT despite my telling them I was with
PlusNet: "But BT own PlusNet!"

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

> I suppose I could get PlusNet to provide my voice service, and let them sort it
> out somehow.

As others have said, plusnet haven't been entirely clear about their future
voice plans, but I suspect they will have nothing to do with it, their recent
FTTP product does *not* provide VoIP, they advise that if you want to keep your
PSTN number then you arrange that with your existing provider, but they say
nothing about what happens if plusnet *are* your existing provider.

Yes the Plusnet Hub Two is a rebadged BT SmartHub6, like the Hub1 is a rebadged
HomeHub5a, but they say the green VoIP port will be disabled.

On 11/08/2022 15:02, Max Demian wrote:

> This is true of cable TV (i.e. Virgin) with cabinets with their doors
> blowing in the wind and black cables in green tubing laid on the ground,
> but CityFibre have been wiring up my neighbourhood quite professionally
> with metal covers near each house ready to be connected if the residents
> wish; though some might not want to dig up their nice block paving to
> connect.
>

City Fibre have put fibre down the street in which I live and are
offering their service via their selected partners. They have not
included any accesses plates to each house. There is also Virgin fibre
running down the street.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 11/08/2022 19:08, Roderick Stewart wrote:

> I wonder how many million homes they have to convert by 2025, and if
> anyone has calculated if it's feasible to do it in only 3 years? I
> live in a quiet residential cul-de-sac and my fibre terminal is just
> inside my front door and next to a power socket, but not everybody's
> installation will be as easy as that. They'll have old buildings,
> remote villages, flats and tower blocks to deal with too, so good luck
> with all of that.
>
> Rod.

Just look how long it's taken for smart meters.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 12/08/2022 10:45, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <64c13ac2-bbf7-7a04-4940-fd741bd0d385@outlook.com>, Robin
> <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> Nevertheless VM plan to switch you over by end-2025.
>
> Barry Fox has been writing - e.g. in the current Hi-Fi News - about the
> problems he is getting with Virgin and the way they are doing this
> changeover. Reality seems to differ from what has been promised.
>
> One of the basic problems is that the new arrangements don't really provide
> for supporting 999 calls during a power cut. Or, indeed, calls to you
> electricity supplier! They basically take for granted the people will have
> a 'mobile' as well. Which not everyone has in reality.
>
> Apparently they are meant to check this *and* provide you with either a
> local power for the router+phone or some other way the user can call for
> help. But in practice they may simply 'not ask and not know'.

This is the problem my elderly mother had with virgin. She was told that
in the event of a power cut her backup was the mobile phone.
After a few complaints made on her behalf to Virgin she ended with them
fitting a backup battery power supply enabling her externally monitored
emergency devices to be operational again.

She has a paid for service for when is she has a medical problem she can
press a "panic" button that she wears all the time. The monitoring
company then ring her back to find out the nature of problem or in the
event of no answer contact other people on a list and/or the emergency
services.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 13/08/2022 21:57, alan_m wrote:
> On 11/08/2022 19:08, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>
>> I wonder how many million homes they have to convert by 2025, and if
>> anyone has calculated if it's feasible to do it in only 3 years? I
>> live in a quiet residential cul-de-sac and my fibre terminal is just
>> inside my front door and next to a power socket, but not everybody's
>> installation will be as easy as that. They'll have old buildings,
>> remote villages, flats and tower blocks to deal with too, so good luck
>> with all of that.
>>
>> Rod.

I wish folks would read. They don't need to get you to FTTP just FTTC.
I would expect there

>
> Just look how long it's taken for smart meters.
>
They are optional. In Spain nearly every one has had a Smart Meter since
2018. They are all from the same supplier. They are mandatory. Similar
in Italy.

This roll out will be the same sort of excercise. You can say no, but
end up with no land line.

Perhaps we need a referendum...

Dave