On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 21:53:54 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 11/08/2022 15:02, Max Demian wrote:
>
>> This is true of cable TV (i.e. Virgin) with cabinets with their doors
>> blowing in the wind and black cables in green tubing laid on the ground,
>> but CityFibre have been wiring up my neighbourhood quite professionally
>> with metal covers near each house ready to be connected if the residents
>> wish; though some might not want to dig up their nice block paving to
>> connect.
>>
>
>City Fibre have put fibre down the street in which I live and are
>offering their service via their selected partners. They have not
>included any accesses plates to each house. There is also Virgin fibre
>running down the street.

City Fibre are currently installing fibre in the city where I live. My
street was done several months ago. When I enquired about
availability, giving my address, they said that I live in a "private
road". This does not inspire me with confidence in their service.

Fortunately (?) I have Virgin for TV and broadband. Although it's not
FTTP, it still gives a very respectable speed.

On 14/08/2022 08:57, David Wade wrote:
> They are optional. In Spain nearly every one has had a Smart Meter since
> 2018. They are all from the same supplier. They are mandatory. Similar
> in Italy.
>
> This roll out will be the same sort of excercise. You can say no, but
> end up with no land line.
>
> Perhaps we need a referendum...

Must get around to ringing them to say they can change the meter but I
have objected to all the rubbish about it saving you money. Also one of
the politicians involved in the legislation to encourage their
installation having a financial interest in the main manufacturer of the
the things.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:58:14 +0100, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 11:44:31 +0100, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>[...]
>>I think you are refusing to accept that many simply don't want a
>>landline. As I said elsewhere I don't know of any one under 30 with a
>>phone in their landline socket.
>
>I'm quite happy to accept that not everyone wants a landline. I've
>never disputed this. Nobody is forced to have a landline if they don't
>want it.
>
>But if somebody *already* has a landline, they may not want to give it
>up as part of the upgrade to fibre. It's possible to keep your
>landline number and use it over the fibre service (I've done it) but
>it's slightly more complicated than an oldfashioned passive phone
>plugged into a copper cable, and this may put some people off from
>considering the upgrade until it's forced upon them.
>
>Keeping a mobile for emergency calls is a sensible solution if it's
>available, but not everyone has the option.
>

That is a solution if the stalwart land line user is offered a mobile
totally paid for by the landline provider.

--
brightside S9

In article <5a16c39196bob@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob Latham
<bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <5a1638a417noise@audiomisc.co.uk>, Jim Lesurf
> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> > So you're happy with the price rises for energy and see no reason to
> > do a thing about it? It's just "The Market", a God that cannot be
> > challenged?

> How on earth have you got from what I wrote, "I don't know of any
> mechanism ..." to the claim that I support price rises, or that it's
> just the market.

OK, change what I wrote into "Try examining what Norway has done. It is
very different to what the UK Gov obsession iwith private-is-best. And
means they are much better placed now than we are."

> I don't support the price rises, they've been caused by naive stupidity.
> Relying on the devil's gas whilst refusing to address energy security
> and make sure we had storage and production of our own gas and
> electricity. Down entirely to the government but I'm certain no other
> party would have done better.

You are probably right if you mean the main parties because they now all
sup from the same belief system. Certainly, recent (sic) Labour Govs have
continued to do like the Tories but put lipstick on the pig of
'privatisation', 'outsoucing', etc.

> The government was largely frightened to address energy because of
> you're lot, the CO2 zealots.

Delusional Bollocks. :-) Their main reason is their delusional belief
system and the money they get paid by their real paymasters.

> Add Net-zero insanity and surprise surprise we have a crisis. A crisis
> where ordinary people are going to be cold or hungry and probably in
> debt in very large numbers.

In large part because we have failed to diversify quickly enough into
renewables and away from massive dependency on gas.

> > Maybe you should read Galbraith. :-) There are some more modern views,
> > but his wit and ability to skewer such faiths is impressive as well as
> > amusing - if your religion isn't being shown to be absurd.

> This from the one of the most religious people I know of. You are a high
> priest of the AGW, the most dangerous stupid religion of the era.

I guess your TLA means Man-Made Global Warming. Which is a reality,
regardless of your wilful inability to face up to it.

Get back to me when you've read the book I recommended but you dismiss
without daring to read.

> Let me give you a quote from a well known professor:

> "What historians will definitely wonder about in future centuries is how
> deeply flawed logic, obscured by shrewd and unrelenting propaganda,
> actually enabled a coalition of powerful special interests to convince
> nearly everyone in the world that CO2 from human industry was a
> dangerous planet destroying toxin. It will be remembered as the greatest
> mass delusion in the history of the world - that CO2, the life of
> plants, was considered for a time to be a deadly poison."

> That's rationality and the truth.

IIUC the people who run Punch and Judy shows are called a "Professor" for
their ability to shape and manipulate wooded heads to say what they wish.
8-]

Are you having a barbie as you enjoy the heat wave? 8-]

BTW If anyone still falls for ye olde "TINA" view that private is better
than public they may find the FT's view of UK Water companies worth a
glance:

https://www.ft.com/content/b2314ae0-9e17-425d-8e3f-066270388331

"Although there was an initial rise in spending, as some companies
sought to meet European water quality directives, research by the Financial
Times showed that total capital expenditure by the 10 biggest water and
sewage monopolies had declined by 15 per cent since the 1990s � from �5.7bn
to �4.8bn a year.
....
Over the same time the companies � which were sold off with no debt and
handed �1.5bn � have [B]borrowed �53bn, the equivalent of around �2,000 per
household. Much of that has been used not for new investment but to pay
�72bn in dividends."

With a pretty graph comparing market value with company debt loading.

https://i.imgur.com/JwkAddv.png

Basically, they rip us all off, big time. We pay the interest on the debt
for the loans they *paid to themselves* (generally abroad). No real investment
which leads to poor handling of water quality, supply levels, etc, here
in the UK.

But I guess that just means the FT is a bunch of leftie loonies. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <td7jcf$2pat3$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

> I find it hard to believe that BT will be allowed to remove voice
> services without providing a replacement. It might pass over fibre but
> will have to be able to feed a telephone.

> The big problem for most people is having provide it with a mains supply.

The concern I have is that the can make the change and then have a system
that does not work at all if you have a power cut.

They have an existing obligation to power the system so someone can make an
emergency call even when the home's electricity supply is off. However
they seem to be assuming everyone now has a 'mobile'... which not everyone
does - or indeed may be able to afford.

So if you don't, make a fuss. They are apparently obliged to then provide a
local power backup for when there is a power cut. Personally, I think that
should be the case in all homes as a matter of safety. Just has it has been
in the past.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <td5j91$2gmvs$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive
<java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> > Add Net-zero insanity and surprise surprise we have a crisis. A crisis
> > where ordinary people are going to be cold or hungry and probably in
> > debt in very large numbers.

> Just think how much worse a situation we'd be in now if we hadn't
> installed so many alternative means of generating electricity, and how
> the problems we face now might have been smaller if politicians over so
> many governments hadn't kowtowed to climate denialists and the nuclear
> lobby, thus wasting decades in prevarication and doing nothing and
> £billions on white elephant technology for which this country has no
> indigenous sources of fuel.

....And if we'd responded to the North Sea oil+gas as the Norwegians have,
not flogging off extraction for temporatry tax cuts... meaning we then got
stuck with paying the 'world price' from then on to companies that bung
money at our politicians in exchange for what they make from the rest of
us.

BTW this webpage looks useful.

https://grid.iamkate.com/

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

BrightsideS9 <reply_to_address_is_not@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 12:58:14 +0100, Roderick Stewart
> <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 11:44:31 +0100, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>> I think you are refusing to accept that many simply don't want a
>>> landline. As I said elsewhere I don't know of any one under 30 with a
>>> phone in their landline socket.
>>
>> I'm quite happy to accept that not everyone wants a landline. I've
>> never disputed this. Nobody is forced to have a landline if they don't
>> want it.
>>
>> But if somebody *already* has a landline, they may not want to give it
>> up as part of the upgrade to fibre. It's possible to keep your
>> landline number and use it over the fibre service (I've done it) but
>> it's slightly more complicated than an oldfashioned passive phone
>> plugged into a copper cable, and this may put some people off from
>> considering the upgrade until it's forced upon them.
>>
>> Keeping a mobile for emergency calls is a sensible solution if it's
>> available, but not everyone has the option.
>>
>
> That is a solution if the stalwart land line user is offered a mobile
> totally paid for by the landline provider.
>

Why can’t the landline provider simply tell you to get stuffed and go and
sort your own voice solution at your own cost? A mobile with unlimited free
minutes is cheaper than a landline rental. Without an exhaustive search,
Tesco will give you unlimited voice minutes for £7.50/month. If you are
paying (either directly or as part of the broadband sub) for a landline to
get your broadband you already have an almost no ongoing cost solution,
other than very small call charges, from the likes of Sipgate.

Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <td7jcf$2pat3$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> I find it hard to believe that BT will be allowed to remove voice
>> services without providing a replacement. It might pass over fibre but
>> will have to be able to feed a telephone.
>
>> The big problem for most people is having provide it with a mains supply.
>
> The concern I have is that the can make the change and then have a system
> that does not work at all if you have a power cut.
>
> They have an existing obligation to power the system so someone can make an
> emergency call even when the home's electricity supply is off. However
> they seem to be assuming everyone now has a 'mobile'... which not everyone
> does - or indeed may be able to afford.
>
> So if you don't, make a fuss. They are apparently obliged to then provide a
> local power backup for when there is a power cut. Personally, I think that
> should be the case in all homes as a matter of safety. Just has it has been
> in the past.
>
> Jim
>

It is technically trivial. Box stuffed full of lithium batteries float
charged from mains. Pass through to keep router/ONT operating when mains
on. When mains fails power to equipment stops. Big ligh ,on box flashes
with legend “press here to make emergency call and wait 30 seconds” press
button, equipment boots. Put a bit of effort into making equipment boot
faster than it does now. Educate user on use. Sell for £20 wholesale.

On 14/08/2022 09:37, BrightsideS9 wrote:
> That is a solution if the stalwart land line user is offered a mobile
> totally paid for by the landline provider.

Might work for someone with one of the fixed systems for making an
emergency call by pushing a button on device carried on the person.

But not sure if a mobile phone is the answer for an elderly person, it
has to be kept charged and they must be able to find it when needed. Can
be got around by supplying one the standard desk phones with SIM card to
use mobile networks but they will be more expensive.

Do you give them unlimited calls to any number?

As always it will be BT who end up having to pay and supply these whilst
other telecom companies will not.

On 14/08/2022 10:10, Tweed wrote:
> It is technically trivial. Box stuffed full of lithium batteries float
> charged from mains. Pass through to keep router/ONT operating when mains
> on. When mains fails power to equipment stops. Big ligh ,on box flashes
> with legend “press here to make emergency call and wait 30 seconds” press
> button, equipment boots. Put a bit of effort into making equipment boot
> faster than it does now. Educate user on use. Sell for £20 wholesale.

How long before one blows up or just causes a fire?

I don't like leaving batteries float charging unnecessarily.

Batteries in UPS need regularly changing, is the average user going to
test their batteries regularly?

I remember a few years ago, someone replied to a query that I posted and
said that at least one mobile phone company had been removing UPS's from
their base stations because of all the costs involved in maintenance -
even disposal of the batteries is expensive.

On 13/08/2022 12:36, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> So if you don't, make a fuss. They are apparently obliged to then provide a
> local power backup for when there is a power cut. Personally, I think that
> should be the case in all homes as a matter of safety. Just has it has been
> in the past.

Didn't it used to be a requirement of business premises that they had at
least one phone that worked when mains supply lost.

On 14/08/2022 09:37, BrightsideS9 wrote:
> That is a solution if the stalwart land line user is offered a mobile
> totally paid for by the landline provider.

It would also need to have exactly the same user interface as a 30 year
old POTS phone, including, not needing to connect it to a charger, and
work from the same places in the house, not somewhere outside where the
COPD suffering user, suffering the heart attack, could never reach, or
requiring one to go through a smoke filled stairway.

The mobile phone solution tends to assume someone from the mobile phone
generation, in fair health, and not trapped by an emergency.

On 14/08/2022 10:34, David Woolley wrote:
> The mobile phone solution tends to assume someone from the mobile phone
> generation, in fair health, and not trapped by an emergency.

Exactly, I think you can buy mobile phones with large buttons likely to
be just a standard one or even worse a "smart" phone.

Most could dial 999 on a proper phone in the dark but would not like to
have to try on a "smart" phone even though it would be illuminated.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 09:17:55 +0100, John Armstrong
<jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>City Fibre are currently installing fibre in the city where I live. My
>street was done several months ago. When I enquired about
>availability, giving my address, they said that I live in a "private
>road". This does not inspire me with confidence in their service.

Curious. I also live in a private road i.e. it's unadopted (though not
fenced off like some of the more snooty "private" housing estates).

Virgin cable is available in the surrounding streets, but not ours,
because apparently our unadopted road belongs to us and not the
council, so Virgin would need signed permission from every household
(a "wayleave") to install their trunking along the road if anyone
wanted their service, and they haven't bothered to organise this.

But we are equipped with all the other utilities, including telephone,
originally GPO (because a small manhole cover next to the pole is
marked thus) but now maintained by Openreach. There has been no
problem getting existing phone lines repaired, or some of my
neighbours getting new installations, or in my case the cable replaced
with fibre. If a wayleave is required for this, I guess it must have
been obtained by the GPO long ago, and presumably its legal validity
will have been transferred to Openreach when they took over.

Maybe the legality would be different if it was necessary to dig up
the road to install something new, but if anyone is saying they can't
repair or replace an existing cable, that sounds like an excuse to me,
because the cable must be legal if it's already there.

Rod.

On 14/08/2022 10:10, Tweed wrote:
> wait 30 seconds

That could be the difference between a silent 999 call and no call at all.

> Educate user on use

Have you ever tried to educate an elderly relative how to use a new TV,
or, for that matter a mobile phone, if they aren't a technofile, or have
you tried to educate someone of any age how to correctly use council
reycling bins.

In the former cases, they will probably write he procedure down on a
slip of paper, not something you want to try to find whilst you are
having a heart attack, or breathing in smoke.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 15:58:44 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>Watching young people on TV, many seem closer to dementia than many
>older people. They can rarer speak properly, they might be able to get
>onto various online sites but havd very limited technical knowledge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVPCGA6IJXY

This is a Youtube channel where someone puts simple questions to
random young people in the street. If they're not stooges or actors
(and they seem genuine as far as it's possible to judge) then the
profundity of their ignorance on all subjects will astonish you.

Rod.

On 14/08/2022 10:51, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> Virgin cable is available in the surrounding streets, but not ours,
> because apparently our unadopted road belongs to us and not the
> council, so Virgin would need signed permission from every household
> (a "wayleave") to install their trunking along the road if anyone
> wanted their service, and they haven't bothered to organise this.

Both Virgin and CityFibre are Statutory Undertakers
<https://www.fieldfisher.com/en/insights/statutory-undertakers-and-compulsory-powers>,
so have all the available legal powers. However, when something other
than the public highway is involved they do need consent, and that can
be a hassle
<https://www.fieldfisher.com/en/insights/statutory-undertakers-and-compulsory-powers>.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 09:37:41 +0100, BrightsideS9
<reply_to_address_is_not@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>>Keeping a mobile for emergency calls is a sensible solution if it's
>>available, but not everyone has the option.
>>
>
>That is a solution if the stalwart land line user is offered a mobile
>totally paid for by the landline provider.

Somehow I don't see this happening.

As long as the only thing stopping the service working in a power cut
is power to the local equipment in each household (i.e. the fibre
service itself is still available because the exchanges, street
terminals etc have power backup) then local power backup is the only
logical solution. Most people won't need it, but if you think you do,
if it's absolutely vital that your fibre service keeps working, and
for some reason you can't use a mobile, then I would suggest that it's
up to you to get yourself a suitable power backup device.

You could try to persuade Openreach or your ISP to provide you with a
mobile phone at their expense (on the grounds trhat you haven't got
one and for some reason couldn't just buy one yourself like nearly
everyone else). Good luck with that. Let me know how they respond.

Rod.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:34:29 +0100, David Woolley
<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:

>The mobile phone solution tends to assume someone from the mobile phone
>generation, in fair health, and not trapped by an emergency.

You can already get mobile phones that can dial three or four numbers
by means of preset buttons, and some of them have a panic button as
well. Look at the Doro range for example. They seem to be the best
known, though I think there are others.

Rod.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 18:43:48 +0100, Max Demian
<max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>>> Neither PlusNet nor BT have anything about the digital phone
>>> switchover on their websites, and the Openreach one not much detail.
>>
>> BT do, although the fact that it will not be optional is maybe a little
>> concealed: <https://www.bt.com/broadband/digital-voice>.  That page does
>> say, pretty explicitly: "That outdated network will be switched off for
>> all phone providers by 2025."
>
>That page seems to assume both voice and broadband are from BT, with
>"You simply plug your phone into a Smart Hub..."

If you're with Zen, that's literally all you need to do.

If you've opted for the phone service to be included, you can just
plug the phone you already have into the box they provide. You won't
even need to configure anything extra to enable the phone to work.

Rod.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 14/08/2022 10:10, Tweed wrote:
>> It is technically trivial. Box stuffed full of lithium batteries float
>> charged from mains. Pass through to keep router/ONT operating when mains
>> on. When mains fails power to equipment stops. Big ligh ,on box flashes
>> with legend “press here to make emergency call and wait 30 seconds” press
>> button, equipment boots. Put a bit of effort into making equipment boot
>> faster than it does now. Educate user on use. Sell for £20 wholesale.
>
> How long before one blows up or just causes a fire?
>
> I don't like leaving batteries float charging unnecessarily.
>
> Batteries in UPS need regularly changing, is the average user going to
> test their batteries regularly?
>
> I remember a few years ago, someone replied to a query that I posted and
> said that at least one mobile phone company had been removing UPS's from
> their base stations because of all the costs involved in maintenance -
> even disposal of the batteries is expensive.
>
>
>

Then stuff it full of primary D cells. Have a change battery indicator that
comes on after a couple of years. For the vulnerable simply have a service
contract. It’s a solved problem with domestic burglar alarms with sealed
lead acid batteries. See also getting your boiler serviced etc. Proper
float charged li-ion batteries don’t burst into flames. We have hundreds of
laptops at work which basically sit on mains power most of the time. Never
seen one catch fire.

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/08/2022 09:37, BrightsideS9 wrote:
>> That is a solution if the stalwart land line user is offered a mobile
>> totally paid for by the landline provider.
>
> It would also need to have exactly the same user interface as a 30 year
> old POTS phone, including, not needing to connect it to a charger, and
> work from the same places in the house, not somewhere outside where the
> COPD suffering user, suffering the heart attack, could never reach, or
> requiring one to go through a smoke filled stairway.
>
> The mobile phone solution tends to assume someone from the mobile phone
> generation, in fair health, and not trapped by an emergency.
>

Corded style desk telephones that connect via GSM are a thing. A mobile
phone doesn’t have to look like a mobile phone.

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>
> The mobile phone solution tends to assume someone from the mobile phone
> generation, in fair health, and not trapped by an emergency.

.... and living somwhere that there is reliable mobile coverage.

--
Chris Green
·

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/08/2022 10:10, Tweed wrote:
>> wait 30 seconds
>
> That could be the difference between a silent 999 call and no call at all.
>
>> Educate user on use
>
> Have you ever tried to educate an elderly relative how to use a new TV,
> or, for that matter a mobile phone, if they aren't a technofile, or have
> you tried to educate someone of any age how to correctly use council
> reycling bins.
>
> In the former cases, they will probably write he procedure down on a
> slip of paper, not something you want to try to find whilst you are
> having a heart attack, or breathing in smoke.
>
>

Supply a corded style desk telephone with a GSM interface. They exist. As I
keep pointing out, Finland has done away with landlines outside of the main
cities at least 5 years ago. There are plenty of solutions already for the
vulnerable.

You aren’t going to keep the wired copper network running based on a few
edge cases, where viable alternatives exist. Especially as the voice call
per minute income is tending towards zero.

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> The mobile phone solution tends to assume someone from the mobile phone
>> generation, in fair health, and not trapped by an emergency.
>
> ... and living somwhere that there is reliable mobile coverage.
>

That’s solvable by either a) improving coverage, which is happening, or b)
providing backup power solutions to those who genuinely can’t leave the
house to find signal and don’t have coverage. It’s not a justification for
retaining the wired copper network nationwide.