On 07/10/2023 13:39, Robin wrote:

> Depends what you are comparing it with. A really cheap kettle will have
> an immersed rather than concealed element so need a bigger minimum
> amount;

All cheap kettles these days have a a flat element surface covering the
whole of the inside base of the kettle. These element are screen printed
rather than being wire wound. You only need a 1/2mm of water above them.

> may not be easy to judge how much water is in it; be single
> walled; and may overboil for longer.

My cheap kettle cuts off after around 5 seconds after the rolling boil.

If you are only boiling one cup of water and using it immediately what
is the advantage of having a double walled container? You are not
trying to keep the water at a set temperature for any length of time.
The heat loss from a single walled container in the few minutes it takes
to boil one cup/mug of water must be insignificant compared to a double
walled container.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 07/10/2023 11:51, Tim Streater wrote:
> Well if you don't mind using a non-recyclable item which can't be
> composted (due to the plastic in it), then go ahead.

??? teabags are fully compostable. Mugs are not plastic

--
The higher up the mountainside
The greener grows the grass.
The higher up the monkey climbs
The more he shows his arse.

Traditional

On 07/10/2023 12:15, RJH wrote:
> On 7 Oct 2023 at 10:50:46 BST, alan_m wrote:
>
>> On 07/10/2023 06:40, RJH wrote:
>>> On 6 Oct 2023 at 14:54:31 BST, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> And of course...from a despriotion of an Espresso machine.
>>>>
>>>> "Water at temperature of 200 °F and at a pressure of 9 bars forced the
>>>> 6-7 grams dose of ground coffee for a period of 25 to 30 seconds. The
>>>> average steam in a espresso machine is 86 °C to 95 °C."
>>>>
>>>> gives the lie to you that temperatures of 80°C are *ever* used for coffee.
>>>
>>> For instant coffee, the water should be well off the boil - 80-90C.
>>>
>>> I'm with Robin on this - the Bosch kettle does what I want and saves energy.
>>> Flipping expensive though.
>>>
>>
>> How much money does it actually save over a year?
>
> Couple of quid a year maybe? But if every household did it, scale that up by
> about 20 million . . .
and get 20 million times fuck all

To boil a kettle is about 1kW for a minute 1/605th of a unit or about 1/2p

even going for 4 kettles a day that's still less than £8 a year.
There are easier ways of saving that

--
The higher up the mountainside
The greener grows the grass.
The higher up the monkey climbs
The more he shows his arse.

Traditional

On 07 Oct 2023 at 14:24:23 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 07/10/2023 11:51, Tim Streater wrote:
>> Well if you don't mind using a non-recyclable item which can't be
>> composted (due to the plastic in it), then go ahead.
>
> ??? teabags are fully compostable. Mugs are not plastic

I admit I'm not up to speed on the latest situation with teabags, but AIUI
most (if not all?) teabags have historically been made wih a plastic web to
reinforce the paper part of the bag. SWMBO discovered here that when she found
that teabags wouldn't compost properly. I have heard talk that some teabag
makers may have stopped including that plastic.

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in someone else's pocket.

On 07/10/2023 14:43, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 07 Oct 2023 at 14:24:23 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 07/10/2023 11:51, Tim Streater wrote:
>>> Well if you don't mind using a non-recyclable item which can't be
>>> composted (due to the plastic in it), then go ahead.
>>
>> ??? teabags are fully compostable. Mugs are not plastic
>
> I admit I'm not up to speed on the latest situation with teabags, but AIUI
> most (if not all?) teabags have historically been made wih a plastic web to
> reinforce the paper part of the bag. SWMBO discovered here that when she found
> that teabags wouldn't compost properly. I have heard talk that some teabag
> makers may have stopped including that plastic.
>
Ah. cheap brands may till use plastic.. I buy waitrose 'own brand' which
are fully compostable
--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 07/10/2023 11:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Really, tea is pretty crap to start with and all that paraphernalia wont
> stop it being crap.

A lot is down to personal taste and I buy tea (bags) that I like and
avoid one I don't like. I was brought up with tea that is only fit for
chimps and if served with it I still don't like it.

I also drink tea with milk but tend not to like it too much if it is
full fat milk.

>sling a bag in the cup top up with boiling water and its ground so fine
> that 30 seconds later  the bag comes out the milk goes in and that
> enough tea for one day

+1 (ish)

I prefer coffee but sometimes I will do the whole day drinking tea.

Some people look down on the tea bag and regard contents as the dust
swept up from the floor but in my experience the bags I buy are more
than OK for my tastes. It's much like the crowd that used to condemn the
likes of Lidl and Aldi for only selling only poor quality food but
without ever entering one of their stores.

The worst tea that I've tasted in the past year was one that came out a
Fortnum & Mason hamper and was a tin of Fortnum & Mason branded Earl
Grey loose leaf tea, and yes I do like Earl Grey. The loose leaf tea
was placed in a large enclosed stainless steel strainer, placed in a mug
and had boiling water poured over it. It didn't matter how long it sat
in the water until removal - it just tasted "wrong" and nothing like
other Earl Grey from various brands or in restaurants etc.
--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 07/10/2023 14:43, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 07 Oct 2023 at 14:24:23 BST, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 07/10/2023 11:51, Tim Streater wrote:
>>> Well if you don't mind using a non-recyclable item which can't be
>>> composted (due to the plastic in it), then go ahead.
>>
>> ??? teabags are fully compostable. Mugs are not plastic
>
> I admit I'm not up to speed on the latest situation with teabags, but AIUI
> most (if not all?) teabags have historically been made wih a plastic web to
> reinforce the paper part of the bag. SWMBO discovered here that when she found
> that teabags wouldn't compost properly. I have heard talk that some teabag
> makers may have stopped including that plastic.
>

The contents of teabags with a plastic component in the bag compost well
- what yo may be left with is a VERY fine ghost like empty plastic mesh,
almost spider web like..

Some herbal teas that I've encountered have had a 100% plastic bag to
allow bigger holes in the bag and to allow the water to circulate more
easily. These I wouldn't compost. Personally I think most herbal
infusions taste more like the water you get when you cook cabbage :)

I used to compost a lot of cardboard food packaging but since the food
manufacturers have started to spout green bullshit about reducing the
use of plastic bags in their packaging the cardboard outer layers have
started to include an integral plastic film which doesn't compost.
Removing this film from the compost is more than a PITA. The anti green
aspect of this is that it makes recycling cardboard more expensive or
possible generates more Co2 in the recycling process.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 07/10/2023 14:27, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/10/2023 12:15, RJH wrote:
>> On 7 Oct 2023 at 10:50:46 BST, alan_m wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/10/2023 06:40, RJH wrote:
>>>> On 6 Oct 2023 at 14:54:31 BST, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And of course...from a despriotion of an Espresso machine.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Water at temperature of 200 °F and at a pressure of 9 bars forced the
>>>>> 6-7 grams dose of ground coffee for a period of 25 to 30 seconds. The
>>>>> average steam in a espresso machine is 86 °C to 95 °C."
>>>>>
>>>>> gives the lie to you that temperatures of 80°C are *ever* used for
>>>>> coffee.
>>>>
>>>> For instant coffee, the water should be well off the boil - 80-90C.
>>>>
>>>> I'm with Robin on this - the Bosch kettle does what I want and saves
>>>> energy.
>>>> Flipping expensive though.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How much money does it actually save over a year?
>>
>> Couple of quid a year maybe? But if every household did it, scale that
>> up by
>> about 20 million . . .
> and get 20 million times fuck all
>
> To boil a kettle is about 1kW for a minute 1/605th of a unit or about 1/2p
>
> even going for 4 kettles a day that's still less than £8 a year.
> There are easier ways of saving that
>

1kW for a minute gives 60,000 J. If we assume then

water starts at 15C
kettle boils at 100C
no loss of heat during boiling
specific heat 4.2

your "kettle" is 60,000/((100-15) x 4.2) = 168g

I usually drink more than your 4 kettles every day before 09:00

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 07/10/2023 14:53, alan_m wrote:
> On 07/10/2023 11:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
<...>
>
> Some people look down on the tea bag and regard contents as the dust
> swept up from the floor

Urban myth, tea in the bag is deliberatrely made fine to increase
surface area and reduce brewing time.

> but in my experience the bags I buy are more
> than OK for my tastes. It's much like the crowd that used to condemn the
> likes of Lidl and Aldi for only selling only poor quality food but
> without ever entering one of their stores.

I've been in Lidl and aldi. The food is cheap, but its not generally up
to waitrose standards, and where it is, its no cheaper!

I dont eat a lot any more. I like it to taste really good.

>
> The worst tea that I've tasted in the past year was one that came out a
> Fortnum & Mason hamper and was a tin of Fortnum & Mason branded Earl
> Grey loose leaf tea, and yes I do like Earl Grey.  The loose leaf tea
> was placed in a large enclosed stainless steel strainer, placed in a mug
> and had boiling water poured over it. It didn't matter how long it sat
> in the water until removal - it just tasted "wrong" and nothing like
> other Earl Grey from various brands or in restaurants etc.
I gave up on fancy teas, In a chinese restaurant I love jasmine tea,
otherwise I drink English Breakfast tea bags, Its refined enough to be
acceptable to tea snobs, and tastes enough like builder's bum tea
without the bitterness for those who like a strong simple brew

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 07-Oct-23 6:40, RJH wrote:
> On 6 Oct 2023 at 14:54:31 BST, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> And of course...from a despriotion of an Espresso machine.
>>
>> "Water at temperature of 200 °F and at a pressure of 9 bars forced the
>> 6-7 grams dose of ground coffee for a period of 25 to 30 seconds. The
>> average steam in a espresso machine is 86 °C to 95 °C."
>>
>> gives the lie to you that temperatures of 80°C are *ever* used for coffee.
>
> For instant coffee, the water should be well off the boil - 80-90C.
>
> I'm with Robin on this - the Bosch kettle does what I want and saves energy.
> Flipping expensive though.
>
If you chose to buy that - fine.

The OP's problem was walking into a strange place and having to deal
with a whole lot of equipment that seemed designed to make life as
difficult as possible.
If you are kitting out a holiday let, you really should try to use a bit
of common sense.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 07-Oct-23 6:34, RJH wrote:
> On 6 Oct 2023 at 19:17:16 BST, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> Microwaves with a knob/dial to set the time are absolutely crap at..
>> actually setting a time.
>> If you try to set 3 minutes, you will often get 2 minutes... or maybe 4.
>> If you just want to warm a small quantity of milk (as I frequently do)
>> then you don't have a chance. You don't have a hope of selecting 60
>> seconds.
>
> Speaking for the topish of range Panasonic I find the knob makes dialing in
> the time easy - 10s increments with a slow turn, then multiples with a faster
> turn. Simple to enter say 15m40s. And there's a 30s button - press for
> multiples of 30s.
>
Top of the Range... That's where we part company.

We've just bought our second 'bottom of the range' microwave in 42 years.
Dunno if this one will last as long.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 07/10/2023 19:41, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 07-Oct-23 6:40, RJH wrote:
>> On 6 Oct 2023 at 14:54:31 BST, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> And of course...from a despriotion of an Espresso machine.
>>>
>>> "Water at temperature of 200 °F and at a pressure of 9 bars forced the
>>> 6-7 grams dose of ground coffee for a period of 25 to 30 seconds. The
>>> average steam in a espresso machine is 86 °C to 95 °C."
>>>
>>> gives the lie to you that temperatures of 80°C are *ever* used for
>>> coffee.
>>
>> For instant coffee, the water should be well off the boil - 80-90C.
>>
>> I'm with Robin on this - the Bosch kettle does what I want and saves
>> energy.
>> Flipping expensive though.
>>
> If you chose to buy that - fine.
>
> The OP's problem was walking into a strange place and having to deal
> with a whole lot of equipment that seemed designed to make life as
> difficult as possible.

Designed to sell to people who think that buying it makes them look
smarter than they really are. Its called marketing.

> If you are kitting out a holiday let, you really should try to use a bit
> of common sense.
>
Tough and basic.

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 07/10/2023 13:39, Robin wrote:
>
>> Depends what you are comparing it with. A really cheap kettle will have
>> an immersed rather than concealed element so need a bigger minimum
>> amount;
>
> All cheap kettles these days have a a flat element surface covering the
> whole of the inside base of the kettle. These element are screen printed
> rather than being wire wound.

Last flat bottom kettle I disassembled had what looked like a “C” shaped
element in a metal tube integrated into the metal base. Not sure how you
screen print that.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 08/10/2023 08:30, Tim+ wrote:
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 07/10/2023 13:39, Robin wrote:
>>
>>> Depends what you are comparing it with. A really cheap kettle will have
>>> an immersed rather than concealed element so need a bigger minimum
>>> amount;
>>
>> All cheap kettles these days have a a flat element surface covering the
>> whole of the inside base of the kettle. These element are screen printed
>> rather than being wire wound.
>
> Last flat bottom kettle I disassembled had what looked like a “C” shaped
> element in a metal tube integrated into the metal base. Not sure how you
> screen print that.
> That - a conventional element bonded to the flat metal plate - is
common. Bigger efficiency gains come from thick film elements: you end
up with much smaller thermal capacity. They can be made by printing a
paste onto an insulated metal plate before it is fired. But I've not
seen a cheap kettle with one.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 07/10/2023 00:23, mm0fmf wrote:
>>
>
> That was what was always nice staying in business class hotels when I
> was out working in Japan... they had a kettles that heated to 80C for
> your green tea. Best hotel had one with buttons for 80/90 and 100C. It
> also had a super advanced techno-toilet with male/female bidet modes,
> heated seat, auto-flush and anti-skid mark mode!

I've just been out there. I never had the nerve to try the fancy toilet
modes.

Andy