My gas supply company wants me to install a smart gas meter. As I
can't really find satisfactory answers on the net to the questions I
have, maybe someone here can explain. The existing meter is on the
outside wall of the garage. I have a smart electricity meter alongside
the CU in a cupboard in the kitchen, a few metres away from the gas
meter. This meter has a little mains-powered readout display by the TV
in the sitting room, so that in idle moments I can see how much juice
I'm using, before finding more productive things to do. I get my
electricity from OVO, my gas from British Gas.

AIUI, they don't power gas meters from mains electricity, due to risk
of explosion. Is this correct?

Because of the above, gas meters are powered by a lithium battery with
a nominal lifetime of about 10 years. How does this battery get
recharged, if indeed it does, or does it just get replaced? Who
replaces it, me or an engineer, and how do I/they know when
replacement is needed?

A remote display is available similar to the one for the electricity.
But my understanding is that to avoid running the gas meter battery
down too quickly by continuously sending data to this display, it or
the data-stream can be switched off. If the data-stream gets sent to
the supplier (via DCC?) anyway, how does this save battery life on the
gas meter itself? Or is it just the remote display that is switched
off, in which case why aren't they mains-powered like my electricity
display?

Can a smart gas meter be used to turn off the gas supply remotely,
like a smart electricity meter is supposed to be able to do?

Is a smart gas meter going to be even less exciting than a smart
electricity meter? Apart from my not having to go outside and read the
gas meter directly once or twice a year (no great hardship), is there
really any point to it? I suppose it does mean that a meter reader
doesn't have to call (once a year at the moment IIRC) but that doesn't
benefit me in any way.

Questions, questions! They'll do for the moment, until I think of some
more!

--
Chris

On 20/10/2023 08:29, Chris Hogg wrote:
> My gas supply company wants me to install a smart gas meter. As I
> can't really find satisfactory answers on the net to the questions I
> have, maybe someone here can explain. The existing meter is on the
> outside wall of the garage. I have a smart electricity meter alongside
> the CU in a cupboard in the kitchen, a few metres away from the gas
> meter. This meter has a little mains-powered readout display by the TV
> in the sitting room, so that in idle moments I can see how much juice
> I'm using, before finding more productive things to do. I get my
> electricity from OVO, my gas from British Gas.
>
> AIUI, they don't power gas meters from mains electricity, due to risk
> of explosion. Is this correct?

yes they use batteries

> Because of the above, gas meters are powered by a lithium battery with
> a nominal lifetime of about 10 years. How does this battery get
> recharged, if indeed it does, or does it just get replaced? Who
> replaces it, me or an engineer, and how do I/they know when
> replacement is needed?

they replace it - AIUI either (a) routine cycle or (b) when it stops
reporting

> A remote display is available similar to the one for the electricity.
> But my understanding is that to avoid running the gas meter battery
> down too quickly by continuously sending data to this display, it or
> the data-stream can be switched off. If the data-stream gets sent to
> the supplier (via DCC?) anyway, how does this save battery life on the
> gas meter itself? Or is it just the remote display that is switched
> off, in which case why aren't they mains-powered like my electricity
> display?

to save the battery the gas meter sends readings to the comms hub only
every 30 minutes

> Can a smart gas meter be used to turn off the gas supply remotely,
> like a smart electricity meter is supposed to be able to do?

yes

> Is a smart gas meter going to be even less exciting than a smart
> electricity meter? Apart from my not having to go outside and read the
> gas meter directly once or twice a year (no great hardship), is there
> really any point to it? I suppose it does mean that a meter reader
> doesn't have to call (once a year at the moment IIRC) but that doesn't
> benefit me in any way.

Modest potential benefits: more accurate bills without having to send
readings; access to lower tariffs.

And I've added "OT" to the subject as I hope you do not plan DIY on your
gas meter.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 20/10/2023 08:29, Chris Hogg wrote:
> My gas supply company wants me to install a smart gas meter. As I
> can't really find satisfactory answers on the net to the questions I
> have, maybe someone here can explain. The existing meter is on the
> outside wall of the garage. I have a smart electricity meter alongside
> the CU in a cupboard in the kitchen, a few metres away from the gas
> meter. This meter has a little mains-powered readout display by the TV
> in the sitting room, so that in idle moments I can see how much juice
> I'm using, before finding more productive things to do. I get my
> electricity from OVO, my gas from British Gas.
You don;> > AIUI, they don't power gas meters from mains electricity,
due to risk
> of explosion. Is this correct?
>

yes...

> Because of the above, gas meters are powered by a lithium battery with
> a nominal lifetime of about 10 years. How does this battery get
> recharged, if indeed it does, or does it just get replaced? Who
> replaces it, me or an engineer, and how do I/they know when
> replacement is needed?
>

an engineer is needed

> A remote display is available similar to the one for the electricity.

Its the same display. According to this British Gas should update your
existing display to show both gas and electricity..

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/smart-meters/#accordion-content-01519264074-1

> But my understanding is that to avoid running the gas meter battery
> down too quickly by continuously sending data to this display, it or
> the data-stream can be switched off. If the data-stream gets sent to
> the supplier (via DCC?) anyway, how does this save battery life on the
> gas meter itself? Or is it just the remote display that is switched
> off, in which case why aren't they mains-powered like my electricity
> display?
>

It sends every 30 minutes, electricity ever 10. The Gas sends the data
via the electricity meter. This contains a hub and the In house Display
only talks to this not the gas meter.

> Can a smart gas meter be used to turn off the gas supply remotely,
> like a smart electricity meter is supposed to be able to do?
>

no idea.

> Is a smart gas meter going to be even less exciting than a smart
> electricity meter? Apart from my not having to go outside and read the
> gas meter directly once or twice a year (no great hardship), is there
> really any point to it? I suppose it does mean that a meter reader
> doesn't have to call (once a year at the moment IIRC) but that doesn't
> benefit me in any way.
>

it helps your supplier meet government targets, avoids them being fined
and charging you more..
... and as it only updates every 30 minutes less exciting....

> Questions, questions! They'll do for the moment, until I think of some
> more!
>

lots of info here:-

https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/

Dave

On 20 Oct 2023 at 09:18:38 BST, David Wade wrote:

> lots of info here:-
>
> https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/
>
> Dave

Interesting, thanks - looks like they're well on the way, although a large
number of those are SMETS1.

How do they calculate the CO2 emissions saved?

https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/network-data-dashboard/
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 20/10/2023 09:17, Robin wrote:

> Modest potential benefits: more accurate bills without having to send
> readings; access to lower tariffs.

More accurate bills? I suppose there are those who get estimated bills
and just pay them, but anyone who can read a meter can supply that
reading and get an accurate bill. Unless, of course, you're on DD and
don't bother to check what you're being charged. Isn't that more likely
with "smart" meters than old meters, as you may have to sign up to DDs
to get the best tariff? Or does that apply to old meters too?

What about the potential "benefits" of being disconnected remotely or
having varying tariffs applied over which you have no control?

Not to mention the extra cost to all of us for the country-wide
installation -perhaps £50 a meter (as an aside, I didn't know until
just now that there are no plans to install smart meters in Northern
Ireland. Anyone know why?)

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 09:17, Robin wrote:
>
> > Modest potential benefits: more accurate bills without having to send
> > readings; access to lower tariffs.
>
> More accurate bills? I suppose there are those who get estimated bills
> and just pay them, but anyone who can read a meter can supply that
> reading and get an accurate bill. Unless, of course, you're on DD and
> don't bother to check what you're being charged. Isn't that more likely
> with "smart" meters than old meters, as you may have to sign up to DDs
> to get the best tariff? Or does that apply to old meters too?

It's potentially more accurate with tariff changes. eg tariff changes 1
January. If you submit your readings on another day (eg 10th of the month),
they will have to estimate your usage between 10 December and 10 January in
order to work out how much you used on the old tariff.

And of course there's the old palaver about them not telling you a bill is
due, sending out an estimated bill, you send in a reading, they then send
another bill which doesn't replace the estimate but just applies an
additional correction subsequent to it, etc.

If you're the type that spreadsheets your consumption weekly then this is
not a problem to you, but many people aren't.

> What about the potential "benefits" of being disconnected remotely or
> having varying tariffs applied over which you have no control?

We've all had tariffs applied over which we have no control, it's called the
energy market.

Has anyone had their supply disconnected except for non-payment? Were you
hoping to do that?

> Not to mention the extra cost to all of us for the country-wide
> installation -perhaps £50 a meter

Maintaining traditional meters / meter readers has a cost too.

> (as an aside, I didn't know until
> just now that there are no plans to install smart meters in Northern
> Ireland. Anyone know why?)

Lack of a functioning government and an executive stuck in limbo just
keeping the lights on, presumably.

Theo

On 20/10/2023 10:05, RJH wrote:
> How do they calculate the CO2 emissions saved?

Generally using Abbotomathics
--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

On 20/10/2023 12:31, Theo wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 20/10/2023 09:17, Robin wrote:
>>
>>> Modest potential benefits: more accurate bills without having to send
>>> readings; access to lower tariffs.
>>
>> More accurate bills? I suppose there are those who get estimated bills
>> and just pay them, but anyone who can read a meter can supply that
>> reading and get an accurate bill. Unless, of course, you're on DD and
>> don't bother to check what you're being charged. Isn't that more likely
>> with "smart" meters than old meters, as you may have to sign up to DDs
>> to get the best tariff? Or does that apply to old meters too?
>
> It's potentially more accurate with tariff changes. eg tariff changes 1
> January. If you submit your readings on another day (eg 10th of the month),
> they will have to estimate your usage between 10 December and 10 January in
> order to work out how much you used on the old tariff.
>
> And of course there's the old palaver about them not telling you a bill is
> due, sending out an estimated bill, you send in a reading, they then send
> another bill which doesn't replace the estimate but just applies an
> additional correction subsequent to it, etc.
>
> If you're the type that spreadsheets your consumption weekly then this is
> not a problem to you, but many people aren't.

I don't have a spreadsheet and it's not been any problem for me. As I
don't have a smart meter or pay by DD, I know that whatever happens I
will always pay more (but I won't overpay and let the suppliers use my
money to get interest for them).

>> What about the potential "benefits" of being disconnected remotely or
>> having varying tariffs applied over which you have no control?
>
> We've all had tariffs applied over which we have no control, it's called the
> energy market.

I was thinking more of a system where quick changes are made to tariffs
depending on how well the supplier can react to charges to them by the
power generating companies, and pass them on to the customer. They
might, for instance, change peak times to something which doesn't suit
the customer, who had originally signed up to a time-variable tariff
because it was right for them.

> Has anyone had their supply disconnected except for non-payment? Were you
> hoping to do that?

It won't affect me as I pay as soon as get the correct bill. But, if
remote disconnection is possible, you can be pretty sure that mistakes
will be made. Those "mistakes" cannot take place without warning with
non-smart meters.

>> Not to mention the extra cost to all of us for the country-wide
>> installation -perhaps £50 a meter
>
> Maintaining traditional meters / meter readers has a cost too.

I doubt many customers have had meters replaced until they've reached
20+ years of use. Smart meters haven't really been around long enough
for us to know how reliable they are (and I'm not even considering
SMETS1 meters), and we known the batteries in gas smart meters will need
replacement every 10 years. Meter readers? I haven't seen one of those
for well over 5 years.
>> (as an aside, I didn't know until
>> just now that there are no plans to install smart meters in Northern
>> Ireland. Anyone know why?)
>
> Lack of a functioning government and an executive stuck in limbo just
> keeping the lights on, presumably.

One might assume that, but it has been looked at, and the installation
of smart meters will start in a few year, but for electricity only. From
<https://www.economy-ni.gov.uk/articles/smart-meters-update>:

"The outputs from the cost/benefit analysis have been carefully
considered by the department. After thorough assessment, we will develop
a plan for the implementation of electricity smart meters and systems.
The case for the implementation for gas smart metering has not produced
a significant level of benefit for consumers and therefore will not be
taken forward at this time."

(Full report is recent, and can be found here:
<https://www.economy-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/economy/smart-meters-cba-report.pdf>)

Interesting that there's minimal benefit (or even a loss) for gas smart
meter installation. I wonder why NI is different from GB (if that really
is the case).

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 12:31, Theo wrote:
>
> I don't have a spreadsheet and it's not been any problem for me. As I
> don't have a smart meter or pay by DD, I know that whatever happens I
> will always pay more (but I won't overpay and let the suppliers use my
> money to get interest for them).

At the end of the day, the supplier is reliant on the customer sending in
readings (because meter readers are too expensive). Customers are neither
reliable nor trustworthy, so I can see why they want to take them out of the
equation.

> >> What about the potential "benefits" of being disconnected remotely or
> >> having varying tariffs applied over which you have no control?
> >
> > We've all had tariffs applied over which we have no control, it's called the
> > energy market.
>
> I was thinking more of a system where quick changes are made to tariffs
> depending on how well the supplier can react to charges to them by the
> power generating companies, and pass them on to the customer. They
> might, for instance, change peak times to something which doesn't suit
> the customer, who had originally signed up to a time-variable tariff
> because it was right for them.

That seems unlikely for gas, where it comes from a hole in the North Sea (or
elsewhere). There's not much concept of 'peak' or 'off peak' gas - if the
pipeline is big enough to feed everyone it doesn't matter whether it comes
out of the hole now or later today. It's more peak=winter, offpeak=summer,
maybe you could get a discount for running your heating in the summer?

> > Has anyone had their supply disconnected except for non-payment? Were you
> > hoping to do that?
>
> It won't affect me as I pay as soon as get the correct bill. But, if
> remote disconnection is possible, you can be pretty sure that mistakes
> will be made. Those "mistakes" cannot take place without warning with
> non-smart meters.

True.

> I doubt many customers have had meters replaced until they've reached
> 20+ years of use. Smart meters haven't really been around long enough
> for us to know how reliable they are (and I'm not even considering
> SMETS1 meters), and we known the batteries in gas smart meters will need
> replacement every 10 years. Meter readers? I haven't seen one of those
> for well over 5 years.

It seems like the smart meter programme has been botched in numerous ways,
not least that there's strong incentives on suppliers to install them but
not so many to keep them working, as well as a mess of intermediaries (hello
Capita) to make it worse.

> One might assume that, but it has been looked at, and the installation
> of smart meters will start in a few year, but for electricity only. From
> <https://www.economy-ni.gov.uk/articles/smart-meters-update>:
>
> "The outputs from the cost/benefit analysis have been carefully
> considered by the department. After thorough assessment, we will develop
> a plan for the implementation of electricity smart meters and systems.
> The case for the implementation for gas smart metering has not produced
> a significant level of benefit for consumers and therefore will not be
> taken forward at this time."

Interesting. NI only got a gas connection in 1996, and it now connects
320,000 homes out of 830,000. A lot of NI uses heating oil. So perhaps
there aren't enough connections to be worthwhile, and there's no benefits
from time-shifting or home generation like you'd get with electricity with
EV charging or solar.

Theo

"Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:Y6A*Rrktz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> It seems like the smart meter programme has been botched in numerous ways,
> not least that there's strong incentives on suppliers to install them but
> not so many to keep them working, as well as a mess of intermediaries
> (hello
> Capita) to make it worse.

The biggest problem that we have with our smart meter (installed by Octopus)
is that there is a very long delay between the end of a day (at midnight)
and the daily and hourly electricity/gas usage figures appearing on the
Octopus app and web site. If we are lucky, day N's data is visible before
the end of day N+1, but occasionally it's taken 2 days for it to appear. We
always see 00:00 and 00:30 figures for day N very quickly, almost always by
09:00 on day N+1, but the rest of the hourly readings, and the full 24-hour
usage takes a long time.

How long *should* it take? What prevents the 24-hour usage figure from being
available almost immediately after midnight?

On 20/10/2023 15:59, NY wrote:
> "Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:Y6A*Rrktz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>> It seems like the smart meter programme has been botched in numerous
>> ways,
>> not least that there's strong incentives on suppliers to install them but
>> not so many to keep them working, as well as a mess of intermediaries
>> (hello
>> Capita) to make it worse.
>
> The biggest problem that we have with our smart meter (installed by
> Octopus) is that there is a very long delay between the end of a day (at
> midnight) and the daily and hourly electricity/gas usage figures
> appearing on the Octopus app and web site. If we are lucky, day N's data
> is visible before the end of day N+1, but occasionally it's taken 2 days
> for it to appear. We always see 00:00 and 00:30 figures for day N very
> quickly, almost always by 09:00 on day N+1, but the rest of the hourly
> readings, and the full 24-hour usage takes a long time.
>
> How long *should* it take? What prevents the 24-hour usage figure from
> being available almost immediately after midnight?

It should be available early that day. I guess the issue might be load
on the DCC or Octopus servers...

... there are other options that read data direct from the DCC in real
time...

https://www.smartme.co.uk/meter-data.html#customerData

Dave

On 09:17 20 Oct 2023, Robin said:
> On 20/10/2023 08:29, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>
>> My gas supply company wants me to install a smart gas meter. As I
>> can't really find satisfactory answers on the net to the questions I
>> have, maybe someone here can explain. The existing meter is on the
>> outside wall of the garage. I have a smart electricity meter
>> alongside the CU in a cupboard in the kitchen, a few metres away
>> from the gas meter. This meter has a little mains-powered readout
>> display by the TV in the sitting room, so that in idle moments I can
>> see how much juice I'm using, before finding more productive things
>> to do. I get my electricity from OVO, my gas from British Gas.
>>
>> AIUI, they don't power gas meters from mains electricity, due to
>> risk of explosion. Is this correct?
>
> yes they use batteries
>
>> Because of the above, gas meters are powered by a lithium battery
>> with a nominal lifetime of about 10 years. How does this battery get
>> recharged, if indeed it does, or does it just get replaced? Who
>> replaces it, me or an engineer, and how do I/they know when
>> replacement is needed?
>
> they replace it - AIUI either (a) routine cycle or (b) when it stops
> reporting
>
>> A remote display is available similar to the one for the
>> electricity. But my understanding is that to avoid running the gas
>> meter battery down too quickly by continuously sending data to this
>> display, it or the data-stream can be switched off. If the
>> data-stream gets sent to the supplier (via DCC?) anyway, how does
>> this save battery life on the gas meter itself? Or is it just the
>> remote display that is switched off, in which case why aren't they
>> mains-powered like my electricity display?
>
> to save the battery the gas meter sends readings to the comms hub
> only every 30 minutes

I wonder why the meter has to send readings as frequently as every 30
minutes. Surely daily readings would be more than enough for accurate
billing?

In message <Y6A*Rrktz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes
>Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 20/10/2023 12:31, Theo wrote:
>> I was thinking more of a system where quick changes are made to tariffs
>> depending on how well the supplier can react to charges to them by the
>> power generating companies, and pass them on to the customer. They
>> might, for instance, change peak times to something which doesn't suit
>> the customer, who had originally signed up to a time-variable tariff
>> because it was right for them.
>
>That seems unlikely for gas, where it comes from a hole in the North Sea (or
>elsewhere). There's not much concept of 'peak' or 'off peak' gas - if the
>pipeline is big enough to feed everyone it doesn't matter whether it comes
>out of the hole now or later today. It's more peak=winter, offpeak=summer,
>maybe you could get a discount for running your heating in the summer?

My understanding is that the gas pipeline system is used as a form of
storage: pressure being raised overnight or during low consumption
periods.

I had a 48" gas main run through some of my fields. During the
compensation discussion they didn't like my request for a gas *storage*
payment:-)

--
Tim Lamb

On 20/10/2023 10:18, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 09:17, Robin wrote:
>
>> Modest potential benefits: more accurate bills without having to send
>> readings; access to lower tariffs.
>
> More accurate bills? I suppose there are those who get estimated bills
> and just pay them, but anyone who can read a meter can supply that
> reading and get an accurate bill. Unless, of course, you're on DD and
> don't bother to check what you're being charged. Isn't that more likely
> with "smart" meters than old meters, as you may have to sign up to DDs
> to get the best tariff? Or does that apply to old meters too?

That has been normal for 10+ years. In general, cheaper tariffs have
always required a DD and often an on-line account with paperless
billing. Before the fuel crisis some cheaper tariffs were only available
to those who had a smart meter, or were prepared to have one fitted
within a short time of the contact starting.

>
> What about the potential "benefits" of being disconnected remotely or
> having varying tariffs applied over which you have no control?

You always have the option of changing supplier if you don't like the
tariff or the way it is applied.
Despite all the negative publicity last year it's always been the case
that the supplier can put you on a pre-payment meter or get a court
order to cut you off for non-payment of bills. Nothing has changed with
a smart meter except that entry to the premises may not now be required.

>
> Not to mention the extra cost to all of us for the country-wide
> installation  -perhaps £50 a meter

From memory more like 10x that amount but there has always been an
industry target, that was never met, about replacing traditional meters
every 10 years for calibration purposes.

>(as an aside, I didn't know until
> just now that there are no plans to install smart meters in Northern
> Ireland. Anyone know why?)
>

As NI is still in the EU it will be a policy decision made in Brussels :)

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 20/10/2023 17:19, alan_m wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 10:18, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 20/10/2023 09:17, Robin wrote:
>>
>>> Modest potential benefits: more accurate bills without having to send
>>> readings; access to lower tariffs.
>>
>> More accurate bills? I suppose there are those who get estimated bills
>> and just pay them, but anyone who can read a meter can supply that
>> reading and get an accurate bill. Unless, of course, you're on DD and
>> don't bother to check what you're being charged. Isn't that more
>> likely with "smart" meters than old meters, as you may have to sign up
>> to DDs to get the best tariff? Or does that apply to old meters too?
>
> That has been normal for 10+ years.  In general, cheaper tariffs have
> always required a DD and often an on-line account with paperless
> billing. Before the fuel crisis some cheaper tariffs were only available
> to those who had a smart meter, or were prepared to have one fitted
> within a short time of the contact starting.
>
>>
>> What about the potential "benefits" of being disconnected remotely or
>> having varying tariffs applied over which you have no control?
>
> You always have the option of changing supplier if you don't like the
> tariff or the way it is applied.
> Despite all the negative publicity last year it's always been the case
> that the supplier can put you on a pre-payment meter or get a court
> order to cut you off for non-payment of bills.  Nothing has changed with
> a smart meter except that entry to the premises may not now be required.

That's the point. They can just do it by the click of a mouse. As
happened recently (erroneously) with the supply to the communal areas of
my block.

--
Max Demian

On 20/10/2023 15:41, Theo wrote:
> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 20/10/2023 12:31, Theo wrote:
>>
>> I don't have a spreadsheet and it's not been any problem for me. As I
>> don't have a smart meter or pay by DD, I know that whatever happens I
>> will always pay more (but I won't overpay and let the suppliers use my
>> money to get interest for them).
>
> At the end of the day, the supplier is reliant on the customer sending in
> readings (because meter readers are too expensive). Customers are neither
> reliable nor trustworthy, so I can see why they want to take them out of the
> equation.

If they had given that as the reason for smart meters that would have
been fine. But they claimed that you could save money using them which
is false, as they don't give people relevant information: just the total
current power usage, not the consumption of individual appliances and
average/total consumption per appliance. In any case, savings are a
result of people replacing appliances with more economical models when
they stop working.

At a pinch, I can determine the total power consumption by timing an old
fashioned spinning disc meter.

--
Max Demian

Thanks for all the replies, both on this and the OT thread - much is
explained. I have one more question: my in-house display (IHD 6, I
think) shows no sign of gas readings at the moment, even zeros or
blanked out or messages such as 'not available', no matter what
buttons I press. If/when the smart gas meter is fitted, will the gas
data magically appear, or will I get a new IHD that can display both
gas and electricity?

--
Chris

On 20/10/2023 18:15, Max Demian wrote:

>
> At a pinch, I can determine the total power consumption by timing an old
> fashioned spinning disc meter.
>

Mmm. I may at some stage pop a split toroid round the mains input wire
and wind a secondary for it to monitor current, stuff it and some
scaled down mains volts into some sort of wifi equipped Pi thing and
make my own smart meter.

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift

On 20/10/2023 17:19, alan_m wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 10:18, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 20/10/2023 09:17, Robin wrote:
>>
>>> Modest potential benefits: more accurate bills without having to send
>>> readings; access to lower tariffs.
>>
>> More accurate bills? I suppose there are those who get estimated bills
>> and just pay them, but anyone who can read a meter can supply that
>> reading and get an accurate bill. Unless, of course, you're on DD and
>> don't bother to check what you're being charged. Isn't that more
>> likely with "smart" meters than old meters, as you may have to sign up
>> to DDs to get the best tariff? Or does that apply to old meters too?
>
> That has been normal for 10+ years.  In general, cheaper tariffs have
> always required a DD and often an on-line account with paperless
> billing. Before the fuel crisis some cheaper tariffs were only available
> to those who had a smart meter, or were prepared to have one fitted
> within a short time of the contact starting.
>
>>
>> What about the potential "benefits" of being disconnected remotely or
>> having varying tariffs applied over which you have no control?
>
> You always have the option of changing supplier if you don't like the
> tariff or the way it is applied.
> Despite all the negative publicity last year it's always been the case
> that the supplier can put you on a pre-payment meter or get a court
> order to cut you off for non-payment of bills.  Nothing has changed with
> a smart meter except that entry to the premises may not now be required.
>
>>
>> Not to mention the extra cost to all of us for the country-wide
>> installation  -perhaps £50 a meter
>
> From memory more like 10x that amount but there has always been an
> industry target, that was never met, about replacing traditional meters
> every 10 years for calibration purposes.
>
>> (as an aside, I didn't know until just now that there are no plans to
>> install smart meters in Northern Ireland. Anyone know why?)
>>
>
> As NI is still in the EU it will be a policy decision made in Brussels :)
>

I doubt it. In Spain SMART meters are compulsory and chargeable and they
are in the EU...

I pay 0.026630 €/day for mine. You don't get an in-house display either...
.... and I have a maximum load of 5.75kW and if I exceed that it trips...
... I could have more but its about 0.10€/kW/Day ....

Dave

Dave

"alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kpfnkjF24b3U1@mid.individual.net...
> That has been normal for 10+ years. In general, cheaper tariffs have
> always required a DD and often an on-line account with paperless billing.
> Before the fuel crisis some cheaper tariffs were only available to those
> who had a smart meter, or were prepared to have one fitted within a short
> time of the contact starting.

The problem is that very often DD is synonymous with budgeted accounts where
you pay an amount that the energy company predicts you will use, rather than
paying (monthly or quarterly) what you have actually used. You end up in
credit for ever-increasing amounts of your money that they have.

I was with a company (I'm not certain which one it was, so I won't name them
in case I'm wrong) and they gave me two choices:

- pay actual metered usage, but had to be done online or by cheque at a bank

- pay budgeted amount, but could be done by DD

I was not impressed with my company. They refused to refund any money that I
had overpaid because I'd been charged at the normal rate but then had ended
up living with my girlfriend while I was recuperating from a heart attack,
so had used very little fuel at my house. I had to threaten to involve the
ombudsman before they would refund me. They tried to persuade me to get my
girlfriend to change to their company when I married her and moved in with
her and was terminating my own accounts, and said that if I did this it
would be "so much easier" because my credit would just carry over to the new
address as if it had been a house move.

I was very unimpressed with the inflexibility of the company and the way I
was held to ransom - you can only pay by DD if you opt to pay an estimated
rather than actual amount, and they were exceedingly unwilling to reimburse
when I was in credit.

We're with Octopus now and they seem to be an exceptionally good company. I
just wish their app/website was updated sooner after the end of the day that
the data relates to, so I didn't have to wait 12, 24 or even 36 hours to see
a day's usage.

On 20/10/2023 18:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 18:15, Max Demian wrote:
>
>>
>> At a pinch, I can determine the total power consumption by timing an
>> old fashioned spinning disc meter.
>>
>
>
> Mmm. I may at some stage pop a split toroid round the mains input wire
> and wind a secondary for it  to monitor current, stuff it and some
> scaled down mains volts into some sort of wifi equipped Pi thing and
> make my own smart meter.
>
>
If you are going to do that perhaps go the whole hog and monitor
multiple circuits...

https://github.com/David00/rpi-power-monitor

(thats another Dave)
Dave

"David Wade" <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote in message
news:ugu6mh$12521$1@dont-email.me...
> On 20/10/2023 15:59, NY wrote:
>> How long *should* it take? What prevents the 24-hour usage figure from
>> being available almost immediately after midnight?
>
> It should be available early that day. I guess the issue might be load on
> the DCC or Octopus servers...
>
> .. there are other options that read data direct from the DCC in real
> time...
>
> https://www.smartme.co.uk/meter-data.html#customerData

Interesting. I'll try some of those apps. I hoped that the IHD would have a
web interface that allowed access to live usage data. The daily usage graph
in the IHD (this one https://www.smartme.co.uk/images/geo-ihd.png) is pretty
useless: it displays the usage as a bar chart (one bar per day), but without
a scale: all it labels is the numerical usage for the day with the highest
value, so you have to interpolate from that. Why not a table or else a bar
chart with a number for each day.

Am I old fashioned in wanting a web interface rather than a smartphone app
to access the IHD? I probably am ;-) I like to get values that I can copy
and paste from a browser page into an Excel spreadsheet. Not possible with
Android - or at least you are at the mercy of the incredible cumbersome
select-by-touchscreen prelude to being able to copy and paste.

On 20/10/2023 19:36, NY wrote:
> "David Wade" <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote in message
> news:ugu6mh$12521$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 20/10/2023 15:59, NY wrote:
>>> How long *should* it take? What prevents the 24-hour usage figure
>>> from being available almost immediately after midnight?
>>
>> It should be available early that day. I guess the issue might be load
>> on the DCC or Octopus servers...
>>
>> .. there are other options that read data direct from the DCC in real
>> time...
>>
>> https://www.smartme.co.uk/meter-data.html#customerData
>
>
> Interesting. I'll try some of those apps. I hoped that the IHD would
> have a web interface that allowed access to live usage data. The daily
> usage graph in the IHD (this one
> https://www.smartme.co.uk/images/geo-ihd.png) is pretty useless: it
> displays the usage as a bar chart (one bar per day), but without a
> scale: all it labels is the numerical usage for the day with the highest
> value, so you have to interpolate from that. Why not a table or else a
> bar chart with a number for each day.
>
> Am I old fashioned in wanting a web interface rather than a smartphone
> app to access the IHD? I probably am ;-)

No I find it annoying as well.

> I like to get values that I can
> copy and paste from a browser page into an Excel spreadsheet. Not
> possible with Android - or at least you are at the mercy of the
> incredible cumbersome select-by-touchscreen prelude to being able to
> copy and paste.

Me too,

Dave

On 20/10/2023 21:41, David Wade wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 19:36, NY wrote:
>> "David Wade" <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:ugu6mh$12521$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On 20/10/2023 15:59, NY wrote:
>>>> How long *should* it take? What prevents the 24-hour usage figure
>>>> from being available almost immediately after midnight?
>>>
>>> It should be available early that day. I guess the issue might be
>>> load on the DCC or Octopus servers...
>>>
>>> .. there are other options that read data direct from the DCC in real
>>> time...
>>>
>>> https://www.smartme.co.uk/meter-data.html#customerData
>>
>>
>> Interesting. I'll try some of those apps. I hoped that the IHD would
>> have a web interface that allowed access to live usage data. The daily
>> usage graph in the IHD (this one
>> https://www.smartme.co.uk/images/geo-ihd.png) is pretty useless: it
>> displays the usage as a bar chart (one bar per day), but without a
>> scale: all it labels is the numerical usage for the day with the
>> highest value, so you have to interpolate from that. Why not a table
>> or else a bar chart with a number for each day.
>>
>> Am I old fashioned in wanting a web interface rather than a smartphone
>> app to access the IHD? I probably am ;-)
>
> No I find it annoying as well.
>
>> I like to get values that I can copy and paste from a browser page
>> into an Excel spreadsheet. Not possible with Android - or at least you
>> are at the mercy of the incredible cumbersome select-by-touchscreen
>> prelude to being able to copy and paste.
>
> Me too,
>

You can do that with n3rgy- see the link.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 20/10/2023 18:07, Max Demian wrote:

>
> That's the point. They can just do it by the click of a mouse. As
> happened recently (erroneously) with the supply to the communal areas of
> my block.
>

I'm sure that these days they could turn off a whole area with the click
of a mouse button even to those without a smart meter.

--
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