On 20/10/2023 16:34, David Wade wrote:
> The biggest problem that we have with our smart meter (installed by
> Octopus) is that there is a very long delay between the end of a day (at
> midnight) and the daily and hourly electricity/gas usage figures
> appearing on the Octopus app and web site. If we are lucky, day N's data
> is visible before the end of day N+1, but occasionally it's taken 2 days
> for it to appear. We always see 00:00 and 00:30 figures for day N very
> quickly, almost always by 09:00 on day N+1, but the rest of the hourly
> readings, and the full 24-hour usage takes a long time.

Your in home display, should be near up to date - every few seconds for
E, then I think every few minutes for gas.

>
> How long *should* it take? What prevents the 24-hour usage figure from
> being available almost immediately after midnight?

Your 30 minute days worth of readings, are sent at around midnight.

The readings go to Capita, then on to your supplier. They probably do it
in batches.

In message <kphbuvFbo3vU1@mid.individual.net>, alan_m
<junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> writes
>On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:
>
>> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
>>cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart
>>meters,
>
>It also replaces employing meter readers.
>
>
>

No smart meters here, and I haven't seen a meter reader in years.

Adrian
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On 21/10/2023 12:01, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <ca9b4cb8-ca6a-4a9a-ab76-921b8b607cfe@outlook.com>, Robin
> <rbw@outlook.com> writes
>> On 21/10/2023 11:10, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> In message <5af6bb01e0charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
>>> <charles@candehope.me.uk> writes
>>>> In article
>>>> <1890822007.719565768.273417.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>,
>>>>   Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> > On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that
>>>>> the
>>>>> >> cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart
>>>>> >> meters,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It also replaces employing meter readers.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>> Not that I‘ve noticed. They still seem to turn up.
>>>>
>>>> I only get someone who wants to read our water meter. I usually have to
>>>> show him where it is. (under a bush across the ditch from the road)
>>>  Huh! I get a demand for a water meter reading monthly. Highway
>>> verge,  usually infested with Ants.
>>>
>>
>> Business account?
>
> Yes. Farm. Annoyingly the meter has *drive by reading facility* I think.
>

Taking monthly readings seems to me a small price to pay for the ability
to choose whose water you drink :)

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 21/10/2023 11:47, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> if remote disconnection is possible, you can be pretty sure that
>> mistakes will be made.
>
> I'd have though that if the media had ever caught wind of someone being
> remotely disconnected by mistake we'd have heard about it by now,
> similarly hackers cutting off suppliers for a laugh, or burglars knowing
> you're away on holiday by seeing reduced power usage ...

I'd no idea if this was accurate or not:
<https://uk.news.yahoo.com/smart-meter-cut-off-prepayment-meter-switch-by-stealth-warn-campaigners-142534893.html?guccounter=1>

But it seems to be:
<https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/regulatory-expectations-letter-suppliers-regarding-concerns-over-remote-switching-smart-meters-prepayment-mode-november-2022>

Also, an interesting comment here:
<https://thecomplaintsresolver.co.uk/the-hidden-agenda-behind-smart-meters/#comment-870>

--

Jeff

On 21/10/2023 16:28, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 21/10/2023 11:47, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Jeff Layman wrote:
>>
>>> if remote disconnection is possible, you can be pretty sure that
>>> mistakes will be made.
>>
>> I'd have though that if the media had ever caught wind of someone being
>> remotely disconnected by mistake we'd have heard about it by now,
>> similarly hackers cutting off suppliers for a laugh, or burglars knowing
>> you're away on holiday by seeing reduced power usage ...
>
> I'd no idea if this was accurate or not:
> <https://uk.news.yahoo.com/smart-meter-cut-off-prepayment-meter-switch-by-stealth-warn-campaigners-142534893.html?guccounter=1>

Misleading headline

Not cut off but the meter changed to prepayment because of non-payment
of bills. Yes, if they don't pay in advance there is no gas or
electricity. This is not meant to come out of the blue but after a
period of correspondence. Long before smart meters people were changed
to pre-payment on non-payment. The difference with smart meters is it
can be done remotely and previously it required someone to enter the
premises to physically change the meter. Again, before smart meters it
required those on pre-payment meters to pay before use and if they
didn't have a token/card with credit the meter would cut them off.
After a rap on the knuckles the energy companies been told to comply
with their codes of practice in all such cases.

The alternative is probably to impose a levy on the customers who do pay
for their energy to bailout those who do not.

> Also, an interesting comment here:
> <https://thecomplaintsresolver.co.uk/the-hidden-agenda-behind-smart-meters/#comment-870>

Another conspiracy theory?

If there is a shortage during peak period and there are enough people on
smart meters willing to shift their energy usage then variable hourly
tariffs may help with the problem but failing that it's likely whole
areas will be switched off in times of network stress, irrespective of
the meter type. I guess that maybe those wanting to keep traditional
meters will soon only have the options of the most expensive energy tariffs.

The problem with our energy supply is not the introduction of smart
meters and how they operate but the growing reliance on intermittent
green energy which at times produces next to nothing when it's needed most.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m wrote:

> Long before smart meters people were changed to pre-payment on
> non-payment. The difference with smart meters is it can be done remotely
> and previously it required someone to enter the premises to physically
> change the meter.

Don't think my smartmeter has any facility to be "topped up" via a
payment card/token.

On 21/10/2023 18:46, Andy Burns wrote:
> alan_m wrote:
>
>> Long before smart meters people were changed to pre-payment on
>> non-payment. The difference with smart meters is it can be done
>> remotely and previously it required someone to enter the premises to
>> physically change the meter.
>
> Don't think my smartmeter has any facility to be "topped up" via a
> payment card/token.

From what I understand if the meter reverts to pre-payment there is
also a card associated with the meter. The card doesn't need to be
physically connected to the meter. It is just an identifier of the
customer account to which money can be added in various ways. The credit
is then transmitted to the meter.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 21/10/2023 18:46, Andy Burns wrote:
> alan_m wrote:
>
>> Long before smart meters people were changed to pre-payment on
>> non-payment. The difference with smart meters is it can be done
>> remotely and previously it required someone to enter the premises to
>> physically change the meter.
>
> Don't think my smartmeter has any facility to be "topped up" via a
> payment card/token.

From memory I think it's routine (if not mandated) for SMETS2
electricity. What's your make & model? (The top up is delivered to the
meter over the network.)

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

alan_m wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Don't think my smartmeter has any facility to be "topped up" via a
>> payment card/token.
>
> From what I understand if the meter reverts to pre-payment there is
> also a card associated with the meter. The card doesn't need to be
> physically connected to the meter. It is just an identifier of the
> customer account to which money can be added in various ways. The credit
> is then transmitted to the meter.

But my meter went "dumb" on changing supplier

Robin wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Don't think my smartmeter has any facility to be "topped up" via a
>> payment card/token.
>
> From memory I think it's routine (if not mandated) for SMETS2
> electricity.  What's your make & model?

Landis+Gyr Libra 310 gas meter with 5236 electricity meter.

EdF claimed they would make them smart again, but I'm not holding my
breath on that ...

On 21/10/2023 20:06, Andy Burns wrote:
> alan_m wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Don't think my smartmeter has any facility to be "topped up" via a
>>> payment card/token.
>>
>> From what I understand if the meter reverts to pre-payment there is
>> also a card associated with the meter. The card doesn't need to be
>> physically connected to the meter. It is just an identifier of the
>> customer account to which money can be added in various ways. The
>> credit is then transmitted to the meter.
>
> But my meter went "dumb" on changing supplier
>

Then if you defaulted on your bills they would take 5 minutes to get a
court order to enter your premises and change the meters.

From Money Saving Expert......

The plan is for all SMETS 1 meters to be remotely upgraded with software
to allow them to meet SMETS 2 specifications and be connected to the
central network.

The Government-backed Data Communications Company (DCC), which is
responsible for putting the infrastructure in that underpins the
roll-out of smart meters, has upgraded about 10 million meters so far.
There's no set date for the upgrade to be completed, but eventually all
SMETS 1 meters will be updated.

Your meter will be upgraded remotely, so you won't have to do anything.
But it's up to your supplier to inform you when it's going to take place
and whether it was successful or not. In the unlikely event your meter
can't be updated remotely, worst case is you'll need to have your SMETS
1 meters replaced with SMETS 2 meters. Annoying and inconvenient, but
not the end of the world.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 21/10/2023 20:11, Andy Burns wrote:
> Robin wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Don't think my smartmeter has any facility to be "topped up" via a
>>> payment card/token.
>>
>> From memory I think it's routine (if not mandated) for SMETS2
>> electricity.  What's your make & model?
>
> Landis+Gyr Libra 310 gas meter with 5236 electricity meter.

Them's "tokenless" smart meters. So /if/ they ever managed to make them
"smart" again they could remotely switch you to prepayment. You'd get a
card so you could top up at POs, PayPoints etc (& with cash) as well as
online.

> EdF claimed they would make them smart again, but I'm not holding my
> breath on that ...
>

It's down to DCC to do the software update. And I wouldn't rely on EDF
to tell you if DCC have done it. You could of course check for yourself
from time to time. DCC have provided a tool just for that:

https://smartmetercheck.citizensadvice.org.uk.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:

> It's down to DCC to do the software update.

I realise that.

> And I wouldn't rely on EDF to tell you if DCC have done it. You could
> of course check for yourself from time to time. DCC have provided a
> tool just for that:
>
> https://smartmetercheck.citizensadvice.org.uk.

Which doesn't acknowledge the existence of either meter by MPAN/MPRN.

I've also searched DCC's endless stream of documents regarding
re-enrolling dormant SMETS1 meters ... my L+G meters used to get
mentioned, now they do not, there are some newer L+G models, installed
by British Gas on Vodafone that they seem to have tested but not yet
rolled-out (but mine were by E.on on O2/Telefonica)

Even those newer L+G meters seem might use an outsourced data collection
system from Trilliant, rather than talk direct to DCC's own systems, so
maybe they are awkward edge-cases?

On 21/10/2023 22:38, alan_m wrote:
> On 21/10/2023 20:06, Andy Burns wrote:
>> alan_m wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don't think my smartmeter has any facility to be "topped up" via a
>>>> payment card/token.
>>>
>>> From what I understand if the meter reverts to pre-payment there is
>>> also a card associated with the meter. The card doesn't need to be
>>> physically connected to the meter. It is just an identifier of the
>>> customer account to which money can be added in various ways. The
>>> credit is then transmitted to the meter.
>>
>> But my meter went "dumb" on changing supplier
>>
>
> Then if you defaulted on your bills they would take 5 minutes to get a
> court order to enter your premises and change the meters.

I doubt it.
<https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/can-your-energy-company-force-you-to-have-a-prepayment-meter-aEoQd9x9F0pI>

Has this temporary ban ended?

--

Jeff

On 22/10/2023 09:44, Andy Burns wrote:
> Robin wrote:
>
>> It's down to DCC to do the software update.
>
> I realise that.

Apologies - no condescension intended.

>> And I wouldn't rely on EDF to tell you if DCC have done it. You could
>> of course check for yourself from time to time.  DCC have provided a
>> tool just for that:
>>
>> https://smartmetercheck.citizensadvice.org.uk.
>
> Which doesn't acknowledge the existence of either meter by MPAN/MPRN.

I don't know just what that means. Do just wonder if one possible
explanation is that supplier has not released (or whatever the term is)
your meters to DCC.

> I've also searched DCC's endless stream of documents regarding
> re-enrolling dormant SMETS1 meters ... my L+G meters used to get
> mentioned, now they do not, there are some newer L+G models, installed
> by British Gas on Vodafone that they seem to have tested but not yet
> rolled-out (but mine were by E.on on O2/Telefonica)

I'd assumed their lists were getting shorter as they'd dealt with the
other meters. Silly me. (Unless they have but don't know about yours.)

> Even those newer L+G meters seem might use an outsourced data collection
> system from Trilliant, rather than talk direct to DCC's own systems, so
> maybe they are awkward edge-cases?
>
Don't know. Trilliant did a deal with DCC in 2017 to enable meters
using their comms hubs to be enrolled. I'd assumed that was working OK
else DCC et al would have screamed: Trilliant claimed to have ~7 million
meters. But there could be subsets which remain blocked.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 21/10/2023 11:10, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <5af6bb01e0charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> <charles@candehope.me.uk> writes
>> In article
>> <1890822007.719565768.273417.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>,
>>   Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> > On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
>>> >> cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart
>>> >> meters,
>>> >
>>> > It also replaces employing meter readers.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>> Not that I‘ve noticed. They still seem to turn up.
>>
>> I only get someone who wants to read our water meter. I usually have to
>> show him where it is. (under a bush across the ditch from the road)
>
> Huh! I get a demand for a water meter reading monthly. Highway verge,
> usually infested with Ants.
>
juxtapose a couple of digits and they may send someone to check ;-)

Tim Lamb <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <5af6bb01e0charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> <charles@candehope.me.uk> writes
>> In article
>> <1890822007.719565768.273417.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>,
>> Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
>>>>> cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart
>>>>> meters,
>>>>
>>>> It also replaces employing meter readers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>> Not that I‘ve noticed. They still seem to turn up.
>>
>> I only get someone who wants to read our water meter. I usually have to
>> show him where it is. (under a bush across the ditch from the road)
>
> Huh! I get a demand for a water meter reading monthly. Highway verge,
> usually infested with Ants.
>

Tell them you’ve developed cataracts and can no longer read the meter
yourself. ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 20/10/2023 13:38, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 12:31, Theo wrote:
>> Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 20/10/2023 09:17, Robin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Modest potential benefits: more accurate bills without having to send
>>>> readings; access to lower tariffs.
>>>
>>> More accurate bills? I suppose there are those who get estimated bills
>>> and just pay them, but anyone who can read a meter can supply that
>>> reading and get an accurate bill. Unless, of course, you're on DD and
>>> don't bother to check what you're being charged. Isn't that more likely
>>> with "smart" meters than old meters, as you may have to sign up to DDs
>>> to get the best tariff? Or does that apply to old meters too?
>>
>> It's potentially more accurate with tariff changes.  eg tariff changes 1
>> January.  If you submit your readings on another day (eg 10th of the
>> month),
>> they will have to estimate your usage between 10 December and 10
>> January in
>> order to work out how much you used on the old tariff.
>>
>> And of course there's the old palaver about them not telling you a
>> bill is
>> due, sending out an estimated bill, you send in a reading, they then send
>> another bill which doesn't replace the estimate but just applies an
>> additional correction subsequent to it, etc.
>>
>> If you're the type that spreadsheets your consumption weekly then this is
>> not a problem to you, but many people aren't.
>
> I don't have a spreadsheet and it's not been any problem for me. As I
> don't have a smart meter or pay by DD, I know that whatever happens I
> will always pay more (but I won't overpay and let the suppliers use my
> money to get interest for them).
>
>>> What about the potential "benefits" of being disconnected remotely or
>>> having varying tariffs applied over which you have no control?
>>
>> We've all had tariffs applied over which we have no control, it's
>> called the
>> energy market.
>
> I was thinking more of a system where quick changes are made to tariffs
> depending on how well the supplier can react to charges to them by the
> power generating companies, and pass them on to the customer. They
> might, for instance, change peak times to something which doesn't suit
> the customer, who had originally signed up to a time-variable tariff
> because it was right for them.
>
>> Has anyone had their supply disconnected except for non-payment?  Were
>> you
>> hoping to do that?
>
> It won't affect me as I pay as soon as get the correct bill. But, if
> remote disconnection is possible, you can be pretty sure that mistakes
> will be made. Those "mistakes" cannot take place without warning with
> non-smart meters.
>
>>> Not to mention the extra cost to all of us for the country-wide
>>> installation  -perhaps £50 a meter
>>
>> Maintaining traditional meters / meter readers has a cost too.
>
> I doubt many customers have had meters replaced until they've reached
> 20+ years of use. Smart meters haven't really been around long enough
> for us to know how reliable they are (and I'm not even considering
> SMETS1 meters), and we known the batteries in gas smart meters will need
> replacement every 10 years. Meter readers? I haven't seen one of those
> for well over 5 years.
>>> (as an aside, I didn't know until
>>> just now that there are no plans to install smart meters in Northern
>>> Ireland. Anyone know why?)
>>
>> Lack of a functioning government and an executive stuck in limbo just
>> keeping the lights on, presumably.
>
> One might assume that, but it has been looked at, and the installation
> of smart meters will start in a few year, but for electricity only. From
> <https://www.economy-ni.gov.uk/articles/smart-meters-update>:
>
> "The outputs from the cost/benefit analysis have been carefully
> considered by the department. After thorough assessment, we will develop
> a plan for the implementation of electricity smart meters and systems.
> The case for the implementation for gas smart metering has not produced
> a significant level of benefit for consumers and therefore will not be
> taken forward at this time."
>
> (Full report is recent, and can be found here:
> <https://www.economy-ni.gov.uk/sites/default/files/publications/economy/smart-meters-cba-report.pdf>)
>
> Interesting that there's minimal benefit (or even a loss) for gas smart
> meter installation. I wonder why NI is different from GB (if that really
> is the case).
>
My last 2 Companies have encouraged me to pay by DD but only for the
amount used each month. No averaged-estimated payments.

On 20/10/2023 17:19, alan_m wrote:
> From memory more like 10x that amount but there has always been an
> industry target, that was never met, about replacing traditional meters
> every 10 years for calibration purposes.

I've said this before - but my supplier contacted me to tell me my meter
was out of calibration and needed replacement.

This turned out to be a ploy to get me to take a smart meter. Once
they'd worked out one wouldn't work here they lost interest. When I said
"Hang on, what about the calibration?" They said "Oh, that doesn't matter".

Interestingly a SMETS2 meter might work - but they haven't asked again.

Andy

On 22/10/2023 08:03, Robin wrote:
> The plan is for all SMETS 1 meters to be remotely upgraded with software
> to allow them to meet SMETS 2 specifications and be connected to the
> central network.
>
> The Government-backed Data Communications Company (DCC), which is
> responsible for putting the infrastructure in that underpins the
> roll-out of smart meters, has upgraded about 10 million meters so far.
> There's no set date for the upgrade to be completed, but eventually all
> SMETS 1 meters will be updated.

My SMETS 1 was updated months ago.