On 20/10/2023 09:18, David Wade wrote:

>
> Its the same display. According to this British Gas should update your
> existing display to show both gas and electricity..
>

>
> It sends every 30 minutes, electricity ever 10. The Gas sends the data
> via the electricity meter. This contains a hub and the In house Display
> only talks to this not the gas meter.
>

So how does this work if, like the OP, you have different suppliers for
gas and electricity? If all the data goes to the electricity supplier,
how does the gas data get to the gas supplier?

--
Cheers,
Roger

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 15:41, Theo wrote:
> > Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 20/10/2023 12:31, Theo wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't have a spreadsheet and it's not been any problem for me. As I
> >> don't have a smart meter or pay by DD, I know that whatever happens I
> >> will always pay more (but I won't overpay and let the suppliers use my
> >> money to get interest for them).
> >
> > At the end of the day, the supplier is reliant on the customer sending
> > in readings (because meter readers are too expensive). Customers are
> > neither reliable nor trustworthy, so I can see why they want to take
> > them out of the equation.
>
> If they had given that as the reason for smart meters that would have
> been fine. But they claimed that you could save money using them which
> is false, as they don't give people relevant information: just the total
> current power usage, not the consumption of individual appliances and
> average/total consumption per appliance. In any case, savings are a
> result of people replacing appliances with more economical models when
> they stop working.

I'm saving about £15-20 a month thanks to my smart meter. Octopus have a
pilot scheme where you get free electricity where there's excess generation
in the local grid, and at the moment it seems to be 2-4pm a couple of days a
week (you get emailed the day before with the times and an link to opt-in).
Move the hot water / dishwasher / washing machine / dryer to that period and
it saves about £2.50 a day.

Interestingly this week it was Thursday and Friday, days not known for their
sunny weather. So the wind farm down the road must be contributing too.

Theo

On 20/10/2023 16:40, Pamela wrote:

>
> I wonder why the meter has to send readings as frequently as every 30
> minutes. Surely daily readings would be more than enough for accurate
> billing?
>

My supplier, Octopus, gives me hourly/daily/monthly usage graphs on
their web site. If I require, I could also download the same information
to put into a spread sheet.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 20/10/2023 15:41, Theo wrote:

>> It won't affect me as I pay as soon as get the correct bill. But, if
>> remote disconnection is possible, you can be pretty sure that mistakes
>> will be made. Those "mistakes" cannot take place without warning with
>> non-smart meters.

The nature of a mistake says they can take place without warning.
Someone comes to your house with a court order and physically
disconnects your meter, or more likely changes it for a pre-payment meter.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 22:08:58 +0100, Roger Mills
<mills37.fslife@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 20/10/2023 09:18, David Wade wrote:
>
>>
>> Its the same display. According to this British Gas should update your
>> existing display to show both gas and electricity..
>>
>
>>
>> It sends every 30 minutes, electricity ever 10. The Gas sends the data
>> via the electricity meter. This contains a hub and the In house Display
>> only talks to this not the gas meter.
>>
>
>So how does this work if, like the OP, you have different suppliers for
>gas and electricity? If all the data goes to the electricity supplier,
>how does the gas data get to the gas supplier?

My understanding is it all goes to DCC (Data Communications Company)
in the first instance, who presumably then re-route it to whichever
electricity or gas supplier the customer is using.
https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/how-do-smart-meters-send-readings/

--
Chris

On 20/10/2023 18:15, Max Demian wrote:

>
> If they had given that as the reason for smart meters that would have
> been fine. But they claimed that you could save money using them which
> is false,

Yep, they started off by falsely claiming that people could save
£100s/annum and then a year or two later had to admit it was more like
£15. This also coincided with many people swapping to lower energy light
bulbs supplied free of charge - but actually paid for by customers as a
stealth green tax/levy on their bills. Average savings = nil.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 20/10/2023 19:34, David Wade wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 18:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 20/10/2023 18:15, Max Demian wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> At a pinch, I can determine the total power consumption by timing an
>>> old fashioned spinning disc meter.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Mmm. I may at some stage pop a split toroid round the mains input wire
>> and wind a secondary for it  to monitor current, stuff it and some
>> scaled down mains volts into some sort of wifi equipped Pi thing and
>> make my own smart meter.
>>
>>
> If you are going to do that perhaps go the whole hog and monitor
> multiple circuits...
>
> https://github.com/David00/rpi-power-monitor
>
> (thats another Dave)
> Dave
Its written in python
Nuff said

--
Climate Change: Socialism wearing a lab coat.

On 20/10/2023 22:35, alan_m wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 15:41, Theo wrote:
>
>>> It won't affect me as I pay as soon as get the correct bill. But, if
>>> remote disconnection is possible, you can be pretty sure that mistakes
>>> will be made. Those "mistakes" cannot take place without warning with
>>> non-smart meters.
>
>
> The nature of a mistake says they can take place without warning.
> Someone comes to your house with a court order and physically
> disconnects your meter, or more likely changes it for a pre-payment meter.

I'm sure almost anything can happen, but it's a very long way from
having the whole country under the control of smart meters, and the
suppliers having a computer program which has "enter smart meter number
here" then click on "disconnect" button. Simples...

--

Jeff

On 20/10/2023 22:08, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 09:18, David Wade wrote:
>
>>
>> Its the same display. According to this British Gas should update your
>> existing display to show both gas and electricity..
>>
>
>>
>> It sends every 30 minutes, electricity ever 10. The Gas sends the data
>> via the electricity meter. This contains a hub and the In house
>> Display only talks to this not the gas meter.
>>
>
> So how does this work if, like the OP, you have different suppliers for
> gas and electricity? If all the data goes to the electricity supplier,
> how does the gas data get to the gas supplier?
>

So I missed out that Data does not go distinctly to the suppliers. The
electricity meter contains a communications hub sends the data to the
DCC..

https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/

who store it and make it available to your energy suppliers and third
parties that you authorise to read it....

.... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart meters,
although if schemes that lower peak power requirements work the overall
savings could be huge. The marginal rates charged by the suppliers of
last resort can be huge...

Dave

On 20/10/2023 22:08, Roger Mills wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 09:18, David Wade wrote:
>
>>
>> Its the same display. According to this British Gas should update your
>> existing display to show both gas and electricity..
>>
>
>>
>> It sends every 30 minutes, electricity ever 10. The Gas sends the data
>> via the electricity meter. This contains a hub and the In house
>> Display only talks to this not the gas meter.
>>
>
> So how does this work if, like the OP, you have different suppliers for
> gas and electricity? If all the data goes to the electricity supplier,
> how does the gas data get to the gas supplier?
>

So I missed out that Data does not go distinctly to the suppliers. The
electricity meter contains a communications hub sends the data to the
DCC..

https://www.smartdcc.co.uk/our-smart-network/

who store it and make it available to your energy suppliers and third
parties that you authorise to read it....

.... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart meters,
although if schemes that lower peak power requirements work the overall
savings could be huge. The marginal rates charged by the suppliers of
last resort can be huge...

Dave

On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:

> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
> cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart meters,

It also replaces employing meter readers.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:
>
>> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
>> cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart meters,
>
> It also replaces employing meter readers.
>
>
>

Not that I’ve noticed. They still seem to turn up.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article
<1890822007.719565768.273417.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>,
Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:
> >
> >> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
> >> cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart
> >> meters,
> >
> > It also replaces employing meter readers.
> >
> >
> >

> Not that I‘ve noticed. They still seem to turn up.

I only get someone who wants to read our water meter. I usually have to
show him where it is. (under a bush across the ditch from the road)

> Tim

> --

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

NY wrote:

>The biggest problem that we have with our smart meter (installed by Octopus)
>is that there is a very long delay between the end of a day (at midnight)
>and the daily and hourly electricity/gas usage figures appearing on the
>Octopus app and web site. If we are lucky, day N's data is visible before
>the end of day N+1, but occasionally it's taken 2 days for it to appear. We
>always see 00:00 and 00:30 figures for day N very quickly, almost always by
>09:00 on day N+1, but the rest of the hourly readings, and the full 24-hour
>usage takes a long time.

You could put your name on the list for

<https://octopus.energy/blog/octopus-home-mini/>

"What exactly is the Octopus Home Mini?

The Octopus Home Mini is a small, palm-sized device that beams
live readings from your smart meter to our cloud-based platform
Kraken, so we can show you up-to-the-minute smart insights via
your Octopus Energy app."

"Accessing your live data is easy.

You just need to plug the Home Mini in, follow the setup journey
in the Octopus Energy app and you'll soon be able to see your
electricity consumption and what you're spending in near
real-time and your gas every 30 minutes."

I have one, and it seems to work pretty much as advertised.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On 21/10/2023 04:29, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 20/10/2023 19:34, David Wade wrote:
>> On 20/10/2023 18:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 20/10/2023 18:15, Max Demian wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> At a pinch, I can determine the total power consumption by timing an
>>>> old fashioned spinning disc meter.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mmm. I may at some stage pop a split toroid round the mains input
>>> wire and wind a secondary for it  to monitor current, stuff it and
>>> some scaled down mains volts into some sort of wifi equipped Pi thing
>>> and make my own smart meter.
>>>
>>>
>> If you are going to do that perhaps go the whole hog and monitor
>> multiple circuits...
>>
>> https://github.com/David00/rpi-power-monitor
>>
>> (thats another Dave)
>> Dave
> Its written in python
> Nuff said

Is that your way of saying you're not familiar with Python?

In message <5af6bb01e0charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> writes
>In article
><1890822007.719565768.273417.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>,
> Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> > On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:
>> >
>> >> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
>> >> cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart
>> >> meters,
>> >
>> > It also replaces employing meter readers.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>> Not that I‘ve noticed. They still seem to turn up.
>
>I only get someone who wants to read our water meter. I usually have to
>show him where it is. (under a bush across the ditch from the road)

Huh! I get a demand for a water meter reading monthly. Highway verge,
usually infested with Ants.

--
Tim Lamb

On 21/10/2023 11:10, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <5af6bb01e0charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> <charles@candehope.me.uk> writes
>> In article
>> <1890822007.719565768.273417.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>,
>>   Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> > On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
>>> >> cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart
>>> >> meters,
>>> >
>>> > It also replaces employing meter readers.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>> Not that I‘ve noticed. They still seem to turn up.
>>
>> I only get someone who wants to read our water meter. I usually have to
>> show him where it is. (under a bush across the ditch from the road)
>
> Huh! I get a demand for a water meter reading monthly. Highway verge,
> usually infested with Ants.
>

Business account?
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Chris Hogg wrote:

> My gas supply company wants me to install a smart gas meter.
> [snip]
> Questions, questions!
I've had smart meters for over 12 years, the non-rechargeable battery in
the gas meter hasn't needed changing yet, it transmits half-hourly
readings to the electricity meter which sends both meter readings to
the in-house display (hence I hardly ever need the battery to power the
backlight of the LCD), it no longer sends readings to the supplier.

Both meters can do remote disconnect ... assuming the SIM is still
active after the supplier change?

I presume when it stops sending gas readings the supplier will become
interested - maybe replace both smartmeters rather than just the battery?

Theo wrote:

> It's potentially more accurate with tariff changes. eg tariff changes 1
> January. If you submit your readings on another day (eg 10th of the
> month), they will have to estimate your usage between 10 December and 10
> January in order to work out how much you used on the old tariff.

While my meters were still smart, the supplier sent estimated bills at
tariff changes despite promising "no estimated bills again, ever".

Jeff Layman wrote:

> if remote disconnection is possible, you can be pretty sure that
> mistakes will be made.

I'd have though that if the media had ever caught wind of someone being
remotely disconnected by mistake we'd have heard about it by now,
similarly hackers cutting off suppliers for a laugh, or burglars knowing
you're away on holiday by seeing reduced power usage ...

In message <ca9b4cb8-ca6a-4a9a-ab76-921b8b607cfe@outlook.com>, Robin
<rbw@outlook.com> writes
>On 21/10/2023 11:10, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <5af6bb01e0charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
>><charles@candehope.me.uk> writes
>>> In article
>>> <1890822007.719565768.273417.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net>,
>>>   Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> > On 21/10/2023 07:45, David Wade wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> ... and given the way government contracts work, I envisage that the
>>>> >> cost of running the DCC far outweighs any gains from using Smart
>>>> >> meters,
>>>> >
>>>> > It also replaces employing meter readers.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>
>>>> Not that I‘ve noticed. They still seem to turn up.
>>>
>>> I only get someone who wants to read our water meter. I usually have to
>>> show him where it is. (under a bush across the ditch from the road)
>> Huh! I get a demand for a water meter reading monthly. Highway
>>verge, usually infested with Ants.
>>
>
>Business account?

Yes. Farm. Annoyingly the meter has *drive by reading facility* I think.

--
Tim Lamb

On 21/10/2023 11:47, Andy Burns wrote:
> Jeff Layman wrote:
>
>> if remote disconnection is possible, you can be pretty sure that
>> mistakes will be made.
>
> I'd have though that if the media had ever caught wind of someone being
> remotely disconnected by mistake we'd have heard about it by now,
> similarly hackers cutting off suppliers for a laugh, or burglars knowing
> you're away on holiday by seeing reduced power usage ...

It happened a short time ago to the meter that supplies power to the
shared parts of the flats block I live in. It took the managing agents
three days to persuade the supplier they had made a mistake.

Meanwhile, no lights in the passages or on the stairs - the emergency
lighting stopped after a few hours - no remote door entry, no porch
light, no floodlight for the car park, no TV aerial distribution; and
the fire brigade were ringing them up to say the fire alarm was out of
action.

--
Max Demian

On 21/10/2023 11:40, Andy Burns wrote:
> Chris Hogg wrote:
>
>> My gas supply company wants me to install a smart gas meter. [snip]
>> Questions, questions!
> I've had smart meters for over 12 years, the non-rechargeable battery in
> the gas meter hasn't needed changing yet, it transmits half-hourly
> readings to the electricity meter  which sends both meter readings to
> the in-house display (hence I hardly ever need the battery to power the
> backlight of the LCD), it no longer sends readings to the supplier.

What's the range of the gas meter transmitter? Will the signal go
through reinforced concrete walls and floors?

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

> What's the range of the gas meter transmitter? Will the signal go
> through reinforced concrete walls and floors?

I don't know, in my case the meters are more or less on direct opposite
sides of a cavity wall.

"NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote in message
news:uguhbm$18el6$1@dont-email.me...
> "David Wade" <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote in message
> news:ugu6mh$12521$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 20/10/2023 15:59, NY wrote:
>>> How long *should* it take? What prevents the 24-hour usage figure from
>>> being available almost immediately after midnight?
>>
>> It should be available early that day. I guess the issue might be load on
>> the DCC or Octopus servers...
>>
>> .. there are other options that read data direct from the DCC in real
>> time...
>>
>> https://www.smartme.co.uk/meter-data.html#customerData
>
>
> Interesting. I'll try some of those apps. I hoped that the IHD would have
> a web interface that allowed access to live usage data. The daily usage
> graph in the IHD (this one https://www.smartme.co.uk/images/geo-ihd.png)
> is pretty useless: it displays the usage as a bar chart (one bar per day),
> but without a scale: all it labels is the numerical usage for the day with
> the highest value, so you have to interpolate from that. Why not a table
> or else a bar chart with a number for each day.

I tried a couple of the apps that were mentioned.

Bright doesn't seem to want to talk to my IHD, a Trio 2, though I may not
have selected the correct number from the various ones printed on the Trio's
case and accessible in the IHD menus.

geoHome works a treat: it give me instantaneous readings which match those
displayed on the IHD itself (always a good check!) and it gives me
cumulative usage for each day/week, including the usage-so-far for today.
And the usage for a couple of days in the past matches the usage that the
Octopus app is reporting for that day (another check!).

So now I can see the usage for yesterday by the time I wake up today (eg 8
AM) and add it to my spreadsheet. No need to wait until this evening or
tomorrow to see yesterday's usage.

Ideally Trio should have suggested people use geoHome (or produced their own
app with the same functionality), but no matter. I knew if I asked in a
newsgroup like this one, someone would point me in the right direction.