Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sai2ta$2qu$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:17:46 on Fri, 18 Jun
> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2021-06-18 11:34:13 +0000, Sam Wilson said:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <0jrncgdi45huetf42n2vc9d60bnb0f0r4c@4ax.com>, at 01:58:33 on
>>>> Fri, 18 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it
>>>>>> Day-see-a,
>>>>>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>>>>
>>>>> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but
>>>>>
>>>>> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>>>>> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>>>>> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>>>>> the origin IIRC.
>>>> Nissan calls itself Knee-san in the USA.
>>> I heard it as “knee-sawn” when I saw and advert over there.
>>> Here Hyundai
>>> tends to be pronounced as “high-un-die” whereas a US advert I saw
>>> had it as
>>> “hoon-day”[1]. Daewoo seems to be “day-oo” everywhere.
>>
>> A N.American advert I saw for Hyundai said it sounds like "Sunday".
>
> Yes, in effect a silent "y".

Apparently, the correct Korean pronunciation is closer to Hew-un-day. But
there are different, incorrect, British, Spanish and US versions, which the
company happily uses in the various countries. Just keep buying cars, and
they don't mind how you pronounce the name.

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-25813198>

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:14:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2021-06-16 09:30:08 +0000, Mark Goodge said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:45:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <sac73k$3pb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:36 on Wed, 16 Jun
>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> None of those are pronounceable words, as in Deans, Righer, WuhWuhWuh or
>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it might be.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ?wuhwuhwuh? is the way I usually pronounce that abbreviation,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Extraordinary (in the literal meaning of the word). I've heard thousands
>>>>>>>>>> of people pronounce it, and none at all that way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have, and occasionally use it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> but I wouldn?t regard it as an acronym. The A in TLA is for
>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation if it?s not pronounceable, acronym if it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tla>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That?s quite common.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But doesn't seem to have been noticed by the Cambridge Dictionary
>>>>>>>> people. Or should we not take definitions like those as carved in
>>>>>>>> stone, and allow a degree of common usage to impinge?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The wording on that web page is an example usage, not part of the
>>>>>>> definition, and for many people FAQ is an abbreviation rather than an
>>>>>>> acronym. So it's not wrong, per se.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are quite a few abbreviations which have a consonant/vowel
>>>>>>> combination that makes them pronounceable as an acronym, and are
>>>>>>> sometimes but not always used that way. FAQ is one such, so are RAF
>>>>>>> (some people pronounce it as "raff", but others say R-A-F) and lol
>>>>>>> ("loll" or l-o-l). But, on the other hand, although technically
>>>>>>> pronounceable as a word, I've never heard anyone refer to an estimated
>>>>>>> time of arrival as an "etta" (or "eeta") or a sports utility vehicle as
>>>>>>> a "suvv".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One that a lot of people get "wrong" is the vehicle manufacturere MAN.
>>>>>> The company is Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, and the "correct" way
>>>>>> to say it is em ay en, not as a word man.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Em arr en if we are going to decide it is composed of German initials.
>>>>
>>>> And BMW is Bay Em Vay… ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Fow vey for VW. It always pains me to use Vee double-you.
>>>
>>> Then I get into trouble for lee dull for Lidl….
>>
>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>
> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
> the origin IIRC.

The rhyming with “day” is surely an Anglicisation of the original(ish?)
name. IIUC “ci” in Romanian is like the English “ch”, like the Italian
soft “c”.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 16/06/2021 06:37, Roland Perry wrote:

> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".

Many years ago, I knew someone who ran an online hosting company;
customers were charged according to the number of page accesses their
section had received, and the bit of software used for calculating it
was called a Frame Access Counter.

On one occasion, someone called up asking for Fred, to be told "he won't
be long, he's just faccing a client"!

--
rgds
LAurence
<><

After all is said and done, more is said than done.
~~~ Random (signature) 1.6.1

On 16/06/2021 16:10, NY wrote:

> One electronics magazine in the
> 1970s and 80s had a house style of rendering all initialisms and acronyms as
> all lower-case with full-stops between each letter: "l.a.s.e.r.",
> "r.a.d.a.r." and "r.a.m." which was very pedantic and bloody difficult to
> read ;-)

At least one still does, or did when I last read it (a couple of years
ago). As you say, very hard to read.

--
rgds
LAurence
<><

Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later.
~~~ Random (signature) 1.6.1

"Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:uXB*wHYmy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> Did you know that воксал (voksal) is the Russian word for central railway
>> station. It is alleged that a Russian delegation visiting Britain asked
>> "what is that" when they saw Vauxhall railway station and misunderstood
>> the
>> answer. But also воксал had been used to refer to an amusement park, and
>> that *was* named after Vauxhall amusement park.
>
> There is of course also:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarmouth_Vauxhall_railway_station
> but I'm not sure what that was named after.

The district it is situated in is known as Vauxhall, but I don't know for
what reason.

It's a small area - mainly the old railway land (Asda) and a very large
holiday camp.

James

James Heaton <heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> The district it is situated in is known as Vauxhall, but I don't know for
> what reason.
>
> It's a small area - mainly the old railway land (Asda) and a very large
> holiday camp.

I looked on an 1880s map and there was a Vauxhall Bridge. But of course
that doesn't prove it one way or another - the bridge or the district could
have been named after the station rather than the other way around. It was
empty on an 1832 map.

(in the mode of the Victoria area of London being named after the station)

Theo

On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 20:32:40 +0100, "James Heaton"
<heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:

>
>"Theo" <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
>news:uXB*wHYmy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> Did you know that ?????? (voksal) is the Russian word for central railway
>>> station. It is alleged that a Russian delegation visiting Britain asked
>>> "what is that" when they saw Vauxhall railway station and misunderstood
>>> the
>>> answer. But also ?????? had been used to refer to an amusement park, and
>>> that *was* named after Vauxhall amusement park.
>>
>> There is of course also:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarmouth_Vauxhall_railway_station
>> but I'm not sure what that was named after.
>
>The district it is situated in is known as Vauxhall, but I don't know for
>what reason.

It was originally a separate parish, named Runham, and then named
"Runham Vauxhall" when incorporated into Great Yarmouth. The name "Vaux"
is a corruption of "Faulkes", a significant family of landed gentry that
was a major landowner in the area.

Mark

In message <NPqdnZ5876msUVH9nZ2dnUU78L_NnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
17:39:15 on Fri, 18 Jun 2021, Laurence Taylor <laurence@nospam.plus.com>
remarked:
>On 16/06/2021 06:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>
>Many years ago, I knew someone who ran an online hosting company;
>customers were charged according to the number of page accesses their
>section had received, and the bit of software used for calculating it
>was called a Frame Access Counter.

In the 90's when I was running an ISP which offered "home pages" to its
customers, we soon discovered that the scarce resource wasn't the number
of megabytes of storage for the content (which is what many others were
charging for), but the bandwidth consumed.

A quick fix was to point the billing software at that user's log-file
(every page hit was logged) so that the more lines in the log, the
bigger the log, and the higher the bill.

>On one occasion, someone called up asking for Fred, to be told "he won't
>be long, he's just faccing a client"!

--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 06:37:05 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <0jrncgdi45huetf42n2vc9d60bnb0f0r4c@4ax.com>, at 01:58:33 on
>Fri, 18 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>
>>>I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>>>Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>
>>If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
>>company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>>Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>>first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>>the origin IIRC.
>
>Nissan calls itself Knee-san in the USA.
>
The adverts on US television (Pennsylvania and elsewhere) pronounce it
more like "knee-sun".

>And Brits tend to mis-pronouse DOS (yes I know it isn't a car), because
>Bill Gates says 'Darse'. And the short-lived graphical system
>'Orse-two'.

On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:55:40 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:14:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2021-06-16 09:30:08 +0000, Mark Goodge said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:45:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <sac73k$3pb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:36 on Wed, 16 Jun
>>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of those are pronounceable words, as in Deans, Righer, WuhWuhWuh or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it might be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ?wuhwuhwuh? is the way I usually pronounce that abbreviation,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Extraordinary (in the literal meaning of the word). I've heard thousands
>>>>>>>>>>> of people pronounce it, and none at all that way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have, and occasionally use it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> but I wouldn?t regard it as an acronym. The A in TLA is for
>>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation if it?s not pronounceable, acronym if it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tla>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That?s quite common.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But doesn't seem to have been noticed by the Cambridge Dictionary
>>>>>>>>> people. Or should we not take definitions like those as carved in
>>>>>>>>> stone, and allow a degree of common usage to impinge?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The wording on that web page is an example usage, not part of the
>>>>>>>> definition, and for many people FAQ is an abbreviation rather than an
>>>>>>>> acronym. So it's not wrong, per se.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are quite a few abbreviations which have a consonant/vowel
>>>>>>>> combination that makes them pronounceable as an acronym, and are
>>>>>>>> sometimes but not always used that way. FAQ is one such, so are RAF
>>>>>>>> (some people pronounce it as "raff", but others say R-A-F) and lol
>>>>>>>> ("loll" or l-o-l). But, on the other hand, although technically
>>>>>>>> pronounceable as a word, I've never heard anyone refer to an estimated
>>>>>>>> time of arrival as an "etta" (or "eeta") or a sports utility vehicle as
>>>>>>>> a "suvv".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One that a lot of people get "wrong" is the vehicle manufacturere MAN.
>>>>>>> The company is Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, and the "correct" way
>>>>>>> to say it is em ay en, not as a word man.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Em arr en if we are going to decide it is composed of German initials.
>>>>>
>>>>> And BMW is Bay Em Vay? ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fow vey for VW. It always pains me to use Vee double-you.
>>>>
>>>> Then I get into trouble for lee dull for Lidl?.
>>>
>>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>
>> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
>> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>> the origin IIRC.
>
>The rhyming with “day” is surely an Anglicisation of the original(ish?)
>name. IIUC “ci” in Romanian is like the English “ch”, like the Italian soft “c”.
>
As in loch, chimera or birch ? ;-)
Adding to the Renault dealers' pronunciation, there does seem to be a
variation between dass-ya and dash-ya.

In message <vujucghtrsbrl5o9icdan1u0uen1gbrgqb@4ax.com>, at 15:27:03 on
Sun, 20 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>Nissan calls itself Knee-san in the USA.
>>
>The adverts on US television (Pennsylvania and elsewhere) pronounce it
>more like "knee-sun".

That's not much different. Disjoint from UK's Niss-san though.
--
Roland Perry

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:55:40 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:14:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-16 09:30:08 +0000, Mark Goodge said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:45:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <sac73k$3pb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:36 on Wed, 16 Jun
>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of those are pronounceable words, as in Deans, Righer, WuhWuhWuh or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it might be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?wuhwuhwuh? is the way I usually pronounce that abbreviation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Extraordinary (in the literal meaning of the word). I've heard thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>> of people pronounce it, and none at all that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and occasionally use it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I wouldn?t regard it as an acronym. The A in TLA is for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation if it?s not pronounceable, acronym if it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tla>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That?s quite common.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't seem to have been noticed by the Cambridge Dictionary
>>>>>>>>>> people. Or should we not take definitions like those as carved in
>>>>>>>>>> stone, and allow a degree of common usage to impinge?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The wording on that web page is an example usage, not part of the
>>>>>>>>> definition, and for many people FAQ is an abbreviation rather than an
>>>>>>>>> acronym. So it's not wrong, per se.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are quite a few abbreviations which have a consonant/vowel
>>>>>>>>> combination that makes them pronounceable as an acronym, and are
>>>>>>>>> sometimes but not always used that way. FAQ is one such, so are RAF
>>>>>>>>> (some people pronounce it as "raff", but others say R-A-F) and lol
>>>>>>>>> ("loll" or l-o-l). But, on the other hand, although technically
>>>>>>>>> pronounceable as a word, I've never heard anyone refer to an estimated
>>>>>>>>> time of arrival as an "etta" (or "eeta") or a sports utility vehicle as
>>>>>>>>> a "suvv".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One that a lot of people get "wrong" is the vehicle manufacturere MAN.
>>>>>>>> The company is Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, and the "correct" way
>>>>>>>> to say it is em ay en, not as a word man.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Em arr en if we are going to decide it is composed of German initials.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And BMW is Bay Em Vay? ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fow vey for VW. It always pains me to use Vee double-you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then I get into trouble for lee dull for Lidl?.
>>>>
>>>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>>>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>>
>>> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
>>> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>>> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>>> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>>> the origin IIRC.
>>
>> The rhyming with “day” is surely an Anglicisation of the original(ish?)
>> name. IIUC “ci” in Romanian is like the English “ch”, like the Italian soft “c”.
>>
> As in loch, chimera or birch ? ;-)

As in church. Loch is Gaelic and chimera is Greek. :-)

> Adding to the Renault dealers' pronunciation, there does seem to be a
> variation between dass-ya and dash-ya.

Not very surprising, really. How many British dealers pronounce Citroën,
Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 18:58:05 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:55:40 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:14:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-16 09:30:08 +0000, Mark Goodge said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:45:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sac73k$3pb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:36 on Wed, 16 Jun
>>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of those are pronounceable words, as in Deans, Righer, WuhWuhWuh or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it might be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?wuhwuhwuh? is the way I usually pronounce that abbreviation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Extraordinary (in the literal meaning of the word). I've heard thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people pronounce it, and none at all that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and occasionally use it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I wouldn?t regard it as an acronym. The A in TLA is for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation if it?s not pronounceable, acronym if it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tla>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That?s quite common.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't seem to have been noticed by the Cambridge Dictionary
>>>>>>>>>>> people. Or should we not take definitions like those as carved in
>>>>>>>>>>> stone, and allow a degree of common usage to impinge?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The wording on that web page is an example usage, not part of the
>>>>>>>>>> definition, and for many people FAQ is an abbreviation rather than an
>>>>>>>>>> acronym. So it's not wrong, per se.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are quite a few abbreviations which have a consonant/vowel
>>>>>>>>>> combination that makes them pronounceable as an acronym, and are
>>>>>>>>>> sometimes but not always used that way. FAQ is one such, so are RAF
>>>>>>>>>> (some people pronounce it as "raff", but others say R-A-F) and lol
>>>>>>>>>> ("loll" or l-o-l). But, on the other hand, although technically
>>>>>>>>>> pronounceable as a word, I've never heard anyone refer to an estimated
>>>>>>>>>> time of arrival as an "etta" (or "eeta") or a sports utility vehicle as
>>>>>>>>>> a "suvv".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One that a lot of people get "wrong" is the vehicle manufacturere MAN.
>>>>>>>>> The company is Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, and the "correct" way
>>>>>>>>> to say it is em ay en, not as a word man.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Em arr en if we are going to decide it is composed of German initials.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And BMW is Bay Em Vay? ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fow vey for VW. It always pains me to use Vee double-you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I get into trouble for lee dull for Lidl?.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>>>>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>>>
>>>> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
>>>> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>>>> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>>>> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>>>> the origin IIRC.
>>>
>>> The rhyming with ?day? is surely an Anglicisation of the original(ish?)
>>> name. IIUC ?ci? in Romanian is like the English ?ch?, like the Italian soft ?c?.
>>>
>> As in loch, chimera or birch ? ;-)
>
>As in church. Loch is Gaelic and chimera is Greek. :-)
>
>> Adding to the Renault dealers' pronunciation, there does seem to be a
>> variation between dass-ya and dash-ya.
>
>Not very surprising, really. How many British dealers pronounce Citroën,
>Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?
>
The latter isn't pronounced the same in Scotland (Pew-zho) as it is in
England (Pe[r]-zho).

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:55:40 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:14:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-16 09:30:08 +0000, Mark Goodge said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:45:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sac73k$3pb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:36 on Wed, 16 Jun
>>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of those are pronounceable words, as in Deans, Righer, WuhWuhWuh or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it might be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?wuhwuhwuh? is the way I usually pronounce that abbreviation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Extraordinary (in the literal meaning of the word). I've heard thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people pronounce it, and none at all that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and occasionally use it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I wouldn?t regard it as an acronym. The A in TLA is for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation if it?s not pronounceable, acronym if it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tla>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That?s quite common.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't seem to have been noticed by the Cambridge Dictionary
>>>>>>>>>>> people. Or should we not take definitions like those as carved in
>>>>>>>>>>> stone, and allow a degree of common usage to impinge?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The wording on that web page is an example usage, not part of the
>>>>>>>>>> definition, and for many people FAQ is an abbreviation rather than an
>>>>>>>>>> acronym. So it's not wrong, per se.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are quite a few abbreviations which have a consonant/vowel
>>>>>>>>>> combination that makes them pronounceable as an acronym, and are
>>>>>>>>>> sometimes but not always used that way. FAQ is one such, so are RAF
>>>>>>>>>> (some people pronounce it as "raff", but others say R-A-F) and lol
>>>>>>>>>> ("loll" or l-o-l). But, on the other hand, although technically
>>>>>>>>>> pronounceable as a word, I've never heard anyone refer to an estimated
>>>>>>>>>> time of arrival as an "etta" (or "eeta") or a sports utility vehicle as
>>>>>>>>>> a "suvv".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> One that a lot of people get "wrong" is the vehicle manufacturere MAN.
>>>>>>>>> The company is Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, and the "correct" way
>>>>>>>>> to say it is em ay en, not as a word man.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Em arr en if we are going to decide it is composed of German initials.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And BMW is Bay Em Vay? ;-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fow vey for VW. It always pains me to use Vee double-you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then I get into trouble for lee dull for Lidl?.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>>>>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>>>
>>>> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
>>>> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>>>> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>>>> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>>>> the origin IIRC.
>>>
>>> The rhyming with “day” is surely an Anglicisation of the original(ish?)
>>> name. IIUC “ci” in Romanian is like the English “ch”, like the Italian soft “c”.
>>>
>> As in loch, chimera or birch ? ;-)
>
> As in church. Loch is Gaelic and chimera is Greek. :-)
>
>> Adding to the Renault dealers' pronunciation, there does seem to be a
>> variation between dass-ya and dash-ya.
>
> Not very surprising, really. How many British dealers pronounce Citroën,
> Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?
>
>

Pronunciation has changed since the 1980s though, to be closer to the
French pronunciation; they're no longer ren-olT and P-you-joT.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 19:53:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:55:40 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:14:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-16 09:30:08 +0000, Mark Goodge said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:45:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sac73k$3pb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:36 on Wed, 16 Jun
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of those are pronounceable words, as in Deans, Righer, WuhWuhWuh or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it might be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?wuhwuhwuh? is the way I usually pronounce that abbreviation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Extraordinary (in the literal meaning of the word). I've heard thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people pronounce it, and none at all that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and occasionally use it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I wouldn?t regard it as an acronym. The A in TLA is for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation if it?s not pronounceable, acronym if it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tla>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That?s quite common.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't seem to have been noticed by the Cambridge Dictionary
>>>>>>>>>>>> people. Or should we not take definitions like those as carved in
>>>>>>>>>>>> stone, and allow a degree of common usage to impinge?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The wording on that web page is an example usage, not part of the
>>>>>>>>>>> definition, and for many people FAQ is an abbreviation rather than an
>>>>>>>>>>> acronym. So it's not wrong, per se.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are quite a few abbreviations which have a consonant/vowel
>>>>>>>>>>> combination that makes them pronounceable as an acronym, and are
>>>>>>>>>>> sometimes but not always used that way. FAQ is one such, so are RAF
>>>>>>>>>>> (some people pronounce it as "raff", but others say R-A-F) and lol
>>>>>>>>>>> ("loll" or l-o-l). But, on the other hand, although technically
>>>>>>>>>>> pronounceable as a word, I've never heard anyone refer to an estimated
>>>>>>>>>>> time of arrival as an "etta" (or "eeta") or a sports utility vehicle as
>>>>>>>>>>> a "suvv".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One that a lot of people get "wrong" is the vehicle manufacturere MAN.
>>>>>>>>>> The company is Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, and the "correct" way
>>>>>>>>>> to say it is em ay en, not as a word man.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Em arr en if we are going to decide it is composed of German initials.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And BMW is Bay Em Vay? ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fow vey for VW. It always pains me to use Vee double-you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then I get into trouble for lee dull for Lidl?.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>>>>>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>>>>
>>>>> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
>>>>> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>>>>> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>>>>> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>>>>> the origin IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> The rhyming with ?day? is surely an Anglicisation of the original(ish?)
>>>> name. IIUC ?ci? in Romanian is like the English ?ch?, like the Italian soft ?c?.
>>>>
>>> As in loch, chimera or birch ? ;-)
>>
>> As in church. Loch is Gaelic and chimera is Greek. :-)
>>
>>> Adding to the Renault dealers' pronunciation, there does seem to be a
>>> variation between dass-ya and dash-ya.
>>
>> Not very surprising, really. How many British dealers pronounce Citroën,
>> Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?
>>
>>
>
>Pronunciation has changed since the 1980s though, to be closer to the
>French pronunciation; they're no longer ren-olT and P-you-joT.
>
I've never heard the former pronounced other than renn-o except by
those who generally mutilate language.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 18:58:05 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:55:40 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:14:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-16 09:30:08 +0000, Mark Goodge said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:45:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sac73k$3pb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:36 on Wed, 16 Jun
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of those are pronounceable words, as in Deans, Righer, WuhWuhWuh or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it might be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?wuhwuhwuh? is the way I usually pronounce that abbreviation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Extraordinary (in the literal meaning of the word). I've heard thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people pronounce it, and none at all that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and occasionally use it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I wouldn?t regard it as an acronym. The A in TLA is for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation if it?s not pronounceable, acronym if it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tla>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That?s quite common.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't seem to have been noticed by the Cambridge Dictionary
>>>>>>>>>>>> people. Or should we not take definitions like those as carved in
>>>>>>>>>>>> stone, and allow a degree of common usage to impinge?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The wording on that web page is an example usage, not part of the
>>>>>>>>>>> definition, and for many people FAQ is an abbreviation rather than an
>>>>>>>>>>> acronym. So it's not wrong, per se.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are quite a few abbreviations which have a consonant/vowel
>>>>>>>>>>> combination that makes them pronounceable as an acronym, and are
>>>>>>>>>>> sometimes but not always used that way. FAQ is one such, so are RAF
>>>>>>>>>>> (some people pronounce it as "raff", but others say R-A-F) and lol
>>>>>>>>>>> ("loll" or l-o-l). But, on the other hand, although technically
>>>>>>>>>>> pronounceable as a word, I've never heard anyone refer to an estimated
>>>>>>>>>>> time of arrival as an "etta" (or "eeta") or a sports utility vehicle as
>>>>>>>>>>> a "suvv".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> One that a lot of people get "wrong" is the vehicle manufacturere MAN.
>>>>>>>>>> The company is Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, and the "correct" way
>>>>>>>>>> to say it is em ay en, not as a word man.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Em arr en if we are going to decide it is composed of German initials.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And BMW is Bay Em Vay? ;-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fow vey for VW. It always pains me to use Vee double-you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then I get into trouble for lee dull for Lidl?.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>>>>>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>>>>
>>>>> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
>>>>> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>>>>> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>>>>> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>>>>> the origin IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> The rhyming with ?day? is surely an Anglicisation of the original(ish?)
>>>> name. IIUC ?ci? in Romanian is like the English ?ch?, like the Italian soft ?c?.
>>>>
>>> As in loch, chimera or birch ? ;-)
>>
>> As in church. Loch is Gaelic and chimera is Greek. :-)
>>
>>> Adding to the Renault dealers' pronunciation, there does seem to be a
>>> variation between dass-ya and dash-ya.
>>
>> Not very surprising, really. How many British dealers pronounce Citroën,
>> Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?
>>
> The latter isn't pronounced the same in Scotland (Pew-zho) as it is in
> England (Pe[r]-zho).

I’m not convinced the demarcation is as definite as that!

Sam (naturalised Scot)

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 19:53:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:55:40 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:14:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-16 09:30:08 +0000, Mark Goodge said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:45:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sac73k$3pb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:36 on Wed, 16 Jun
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of those are pronounceable words, as in Deans, Righer, WuhWuhWuh or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it might be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?wuhwuhwuh? is the way I usually pronounce that abbreviation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Extraordinary (in the literal meaning of the word). I've heard thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people pronounce it, and none at all that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and occasionally use it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I wouldn?t regard it as an acronym. The A in TLA is for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation if it?s not pronounceable, acronym if it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tla>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That?s quite common.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't seem to have been noticed by the Cambridge Dictionary
>>>>>>>>>>>>> people. Or should we not take definitions like those as carved in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stone, and allow a degree of common usage to impinge?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The wording on that web page is an example usage, not part of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> definition, and for many people FAQ is an abbreviation rather than an
>>>>>>>>>>>> acronym. So it's not wrong, per se.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are quite a few abbreviations which have a consonant/vowel
>>>>>>>>>>>> combination that makes them pronounceable as an acronym, and are
>>>>>>>>>>>> sometimes but not always used that way. FAQ is one such, so are RAF
>>>>>>>>>>>> (some people pronounce it as "raff", but others say R-A-F) and lol
>>>>>>>>>>>> ("loll" or l-o-l). But, on the other hand, although technically
>>>>>>>>>>>> pronounceable as a word, I've never heard anyone refer to an estimated
>>>>>>>>>>>> time of arrival as an "etta" (or "eeta") or a sports utility vehicle as
>>>>>>>>>>>> a "suvv".
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> One that a lot of people get "wrong" is the vehicle manufacturere MAN.
>>>>>>>>>>> The company is Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, and the "correct" way
>>>>>>>>>>> to say it is em ay en, not as a word man.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Em arr en if we are going to decide it is composed of German initials.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And BMW is Bay Em Vay? ;-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fow vey for VW. It always pains me to use Vee double-you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then I get into trouble for lee dull for Lidl?.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>>>>>>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
>>>>>> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>>>>>> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>>>>>> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>>>>>> the origin IIRC.
>>>>>
>>>>> The rhyming with ?day? is surely an Anglicisation of the original(ish?)
>>>>> name. IIUC ?ci? in Romanian is like the English ?ch?, like the Italian soft ?c?.
>>>>>
>>>> As in loch, chimera or birch ? ;-)
>>>
>>> As in church. Loch is Gaelic and chimera is Greek. :-)
>>>
>>>> Adding to the Renault dealers' pronunciation, there does seem to be a
>>>> variation between dass-ya and dash-ya.
>>>
>>> Not very surprising, really. How many British dealers pronounce Citroën,
>>> Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Pronunciation has changed since the 1980s though, to be closer to the
>> French pronunciation; they're no longer ren-olT and P-you-joT.
>>
> I've never heard the former pronounced other than renn-o except by
> those who generally mutilate language.
>

That's how my grandparents (from deepest Lancashire and Cheshire) used to
pronounce it, though tbh they struggled with Audi (Or-Dee, like audio
without the O), and they never did manage our local French restaurant
Paysanne.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Jun 2021 19:53:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 18 Jun 2021 15:55:40 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021 16:14:25 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2021-06-16 09:30:08 +0000, Mark Goodge said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 08:45:11 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <sac73k$3pb$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:52:36 on Wed, 16 Jun
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> None of those are pronounceable words, as in Deans, Righer, WuhWuhWuh or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whatever it might be.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?wuhwuhwuh? is the way I usually pronounce that abbreviation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Extraordinary (in the literal meaning of the word). I've heard thousands
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people pronounce it, and none at all that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and occasionally use it myself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I wouldn?t regard it as an acronym. The A in TLA is for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation if it?s not pronounceable, acronym if it is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/tla>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Although I have heard people pronounce FAQ as "fack".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That?s quite common.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't seem to have been noticed by the Cambridge Dictionary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people. Or should we not take definitions like those as carved in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stone, and allow a degree of common usage to impinge?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wording on that web page is an example usage, not part of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition, and for many people FAQ is an abbreviation rather than an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> acronym. So it's not wrong, per se.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are quite a few abbreviations which have a consonant/vowel
>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination that makes them pronounceable as an acronym, and are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sometimes but not always used that way. FAQ is one such, so are RAF
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (some people pronounce it as "raff", but others say R-A-F) and lol
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ("loll" or l-o-l). But, on the other hand, although technically
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pronounceable as a word, I've never heard anyone refer to an estimated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> time of arrival as an "etta" (or "eeta") or a sports utility vehicle as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a "suvv".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> One that a lot of people get "wrong" is the vehicle manufacturere MAN.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The company is Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, and the "correct" way
>>>>>>>>>>>> to say it is em ay en, not as a word man.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Robin
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Em arr en if we are going to decide it is composed of German initials.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And BMW is Bay Em Vay? ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Fow vey for VW. It always pains me to use Vee double-you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then I get into trouble for lee dull for Lidl?.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I believe Dacia is another one most of us get wrong. Is it Day-see-a,
>>>>>>>> Dat-chee-a, Dat-cha or something else? Maybe Charles can advise?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If Wonkypaedia is correct then the mountains rhyme with "day" but the
>>>>>>> company rhymes with "[d]ass".
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacia
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_Dacia
>>>>>>> Renault dealers mostly seems to pronounce it the latter way. Not the
>>>>>>> first time that a brand has apparently altered the pronunciation from
>>>>>>> the origin IIRC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The rhyming with ?day? is surely an Anglicisation of the original(ish?)
>>>>>> name. IIUC ?ci? in Romanian is like the English ?ch?, like the Italian soft ?c?.
>>>>>>
>>>>> As in loch, chimera or birch ? ;-)
>>>>
>>>> As in church. Loch is Gaelic and chimera is Greek. :-)
>>>>
>>>>> Adding to the Renault dealers' pronunciation, there does seem to be a
>>>>> variation between dass-ya and dash-ya.
>>>>
>>>> Not very surprising, really. How many British dealers pronounce Citroën,
>>>> Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Pronunciation has changed since the 1980s though, to be closer to the
>>> French pronunciation; they're no longer ren-olT and P-you-joT.
>>>
>> I've never heard the former pronounced other than renn-o except by
>> those who generally mutilate language.
>>
>
> That's how my grandparents (from deepest Lancashire and Cheshire) used to
> pronounce it, though tbh they struggled with Audi (Or-Dee, like audio
> without the O), and they never did manage our local French restaurant
> Paysanne.

Actually REN-o is a little closer to the French way - rrhuh-NO - than the
old REN-olt, so perhaps we’re making progress.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 20 Jun 2021 at 19:53:31, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
> Pronunciation has changed since the 1980s though, to be closer to the
> French pronunciation; they're no longer ren-olT and P-you-joT.
>
Similarly Gereman : Audi no longer pronounced "ordi"
but Braun is still pronounced "brawn".
Umlauts are ignored everywhere.

"Charles Ellson" <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:fl7vcg92bgru169c9aq8b78qmiukopn5ua@4ax.com...

>>> Not very surprising, really. How many British dealers pronounce
>>> Citroën,
>>> Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?
>>
>>Pronunciation has changed since the 1980s though, to be closer to the
>>French pronunciation; they're no longer ren-olT and P-you-joT.
>>
> I've never heard the former pronounced other than renn-o except by
> those who generally mutilate language.

I've heard "ren-olt" in the 1970s when I was growing up in Leeds, though I
think it was mainly my best friend and his family who pronounced it that
way. Otherwise it's fairly ubiquitously "ren-oh": reasonably close to the
French pronunciation.

Peugeot seems to be "per-zhoh" everywhere: I've never heard "pyou-zhoh" or
"pyou-jot" except in jest by someone deliberately stumbling over a foreign
word, as if to make a point that "this is a foreign car". I hadn't realised
that "pyou-zhoh" was more common than "per-zhoh" in Scotland.

Citroën varies between "cit-ron", "cit-rern" and "cit-ro-en". The last is
closest to French pronunciation, since the umlaut on the e denotes two
vowels to be pronounced separately rather than as a diphthong - as in
English words such as "noël" ("no-ell") and names such as Zoë ("zo-ee").

On 21/06/2021 09:47, NY wrote:
> "Charles Ellson" <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:fl7vcg92bgru169c9aq8b78qmiukopn5ua@4ax.com...
>
>>>> Not very surprising, really.  How many British dealers pronounce
>>>> Citroën,
>>>> Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?
>>>
>>> Pronunciation has changed since the 1980s though, to be closer to the
>>> French pronunciation; they're no longer ren-olT and P-you-joT.
>>>
>> I've never heard the former pronounced other than renn-o except by
>> those who generally mutilate language.
>
>
> I've heard "ren-olt" in the 1970s when I was growing up in Leeds, though
> I think it was mainly my best friend and his family who pronounced it
> that way. Otherwise it's fairly ubiquitously "ren-oh": reasonably close
> to the French pronunciation.
>
> Peugeot seems to be "per-zhoh" everywhere: I've never heard "pyou-zhoh"
> or "pyou-jot" except in jest by someone deliberately stumbling over a
> foreign word, as if to make a point that "this is a foreign car". I
> hadn't realised that "pyou-zhoh" was more common than "per-zhoh" in
> Scotland.
>
> Citroën varies between "cit-ron", "cit-rern" and "cit-ro-en". The last
> is closest to French pronunciation, since the umlaut on the e denotes
> two vowels to be pronounced separately rather than as a diphthong - as
> in English words such as "noël" ("no-ell") and names such as Zoë ("zo-ee").

Silly idea, trying to balance two dots on top of a letter, they are
bound to fall off!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <dqlmcg9r6n3ss3tcrhm7hmtgrr1nqk4go4@4ax.com>, at 15:23:11 on
Thu, 17 Jun 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>>>>> It's a file type, not a file name extension. Raw files have
>>>>>>>>various manufacturer-specific extensions, such as .arw, crw,
>>>>>>>>.nef, .rw2. What they don't have is a .raw enetension.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are a couple here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://whatext.com/raw
>>>>>
>>>>>Lots of basic, amateurish mistakes in that piece. Best to ignore the whole
>>>>>piece.
>>>>
>>>>If we did that than everything from Wikipedia to the Daily Telegraph,
>>>>would disappear in a puff of logic.
>>>
>>>If you knew anything about photography, you'd know how bad that piece
>>>is, and would not have cited it. Just about every sentence is wrong.
>>>It's not remotely comparable to Wikipedia

Ahem, Wikipedia also lists .raw as a filetype:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_image_format

>>>and the Daily Telegraph, where you have to look for errors.
>>
>>Actually, errors in the Daily Telegraph leap out every single day.
>
>Yes, there are a few errors in each edition of the paper as a whole,
>which you're too cheap to pay to access. But

That's a scaling issue. I read so many publications daily, that multiple
subscriptions would be too cumbersome. They really need a new business
model with some form of "season ticket" across a basket of titles.

>not in every sentence.
>
>You've cited a rubbish article that you simply didn't understand was
>rubbish. Stop pretending that you know anything about the subject.

It sounds a fairly plausible article to me.

Images generated by CCDs in certain digital cameras (a short-list
provided) which can be processed for characteristics such as exposure
and white balance, and which allow better results because they haven't
been compressed to a fraction of their original size in the way that
JPEGs are. In doing so there's a "tradeoff between lower-quality,
smaller images and higher-quality, larger images".

They are a bit repetitive when it comes to the word "uncompressed", and
had it been a specialist photo site, rather than a file extension
identification site, something more along the lines of "lossless" might
be appropriate.

>>Getting back to raw image files, is it your proposition that none of
>>"Panasonic, Leica, and Casio cameras" ever produced files of this
>>extension? If so, what's your source.
>
>I own lots of cameras, and always shoot raw with them, and I can tell
>you that no camera manufacturers use .raw as the file extension.

For the article to be true, only some manufacturers needed to have used
them, at some point in time.

>You wouldn't know, but raw files are proprietary, and each manufacturer
>uses its own file extensions to denote its proprietary files. You
>obviously also don't know that Casio hasn't made cameras for years.

That doesn't matter. This is a reverse-lookup tool. For people finding a
..raw file and wondering where it might have come from.

Not just in this case "some cameras, at some point in time", but could
also be audio data, or from an open source emulator used for running
Nintendo Wii and GameCube.

It's quite common for file extensions not to be unique. Remember I also
found some .raw files associated with a rather old database application,
and just now I found a blog post from 2004 confirming that they could
also be from a particular floppy-disk backup/imaging utility.

>As for the actual major manufactures:
>
>Canon: CRW, CR2, CR3
>Fuji: RAF
>Leica: RWL
>Nikon: NEF
>Olympus: ORF
>Panasonic: RW2
>Pentax: PEF
>Sony: ARW

As mentioned earlier, Wikipedia includes all of those, but also .raw,
which it later on ascribes, together with .rw2, to Leica and Panasonic:

..3fr,
..ari, .arw,
..bay,
..braw, .crw, .cr2, .cr3,
..cap,
..data, .dcs, .dcr, .dng,
..drf,
..eip, .erf,
..fff,
..gpr,
..iiq,
..k25, .kdc,
..mdc, .mef, .mos, .mrw,
..nef, .nrw,
..obm, .orf,
..pef, .ptx, .pxn,
..r3d, .raf, .raw, .rwl, .rw2, .rwz,
..sr2, .srf, .srw,
..tif,
..x3f

Another site says "at some point the [Panasonic] .raw file extension was
changed to .rw2" which makes sense, as 'our second raw format'.

Therefore if someone stumbles over a unattributed .raw file, I'd
continue to suggest they first see if it imports into suitable image
processing software.

Here's even more information (yet another site) that might help:

"Panasonic cameras create RAW files with the RAW or RW2 extension.
RW2 is the latest.

Leica rebadged camera also generate RWL files that don't seem to be
different from RW2."

And that's not the only site which mentions Leica and Panasonic in the
same breath, and adds plausibility to the earlier proposition.

And finally, here's a site that shows some Casio cameras used .raw too
(the QV-4000 and some Exilim models):

https://www.inweb.ch/foto/rawformat.html

It cites some documentation on the Casio website, why would they be
making this up?
--
Roland Perry

In message <safr3t$i4b$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:52:29 on Thu, 17 Jun
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> The issue here is what do some cameras [and not just the subset of
>> cameras some correspondents are familiar with] name the files by
>> default.
>
>So, please, name one, just one, or stop wittering on about it.

Done.

>>> .raw is also used (rarely) for certain audio files.
>>
>>> Yes, that's emerged earlier.

>Yes, and I learned something there. I know a lot about image files, but
>pretty much nothing about audio files. And, unlike you, I'm happy to
>admit my ignorance.

You've got the sequence a bit muddled.

While I know a lot about the science of filetypes, I didn't have a
particularly large number of them memorised.

Which is why I used a specialist site, and what I saw there had a ring
of truth. Perhaps it would have helped if I'd have added "look what I've
just discovered", but peppering postings here with that would soon
become tedious.

It matters little what's inside the files (unless I was about to write
some image processing software, which I'm not).

But look what I've just discovered from reading more about it: many of
the proprietary forms are modified TIFF, and that makes perfect sense.
But doesn't help me take better photos.
--
Roland Perry

In message <safqt5$gkk$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:53 on Thu, 17 Jun
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message
>> <1197053252.645633440.979520.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.ne
>>> , at 14:41:11 on Thu, 17 Jun 2021, Jeremy Double
>> <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2021 19:36:07 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> "Sam Wilson" <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:sad8oo$d5s$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> According to Wikipedia[1] it’s more complicated than that. I also
>>>>>>> remember
>>>>>>> MIS types with an IBM background being rather dismissive of
>>>>>>>anyone saying
>>>>>>> “S Q L” rather than “sequel”, in the same sort of way
>>>>>>>that some Unix
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> snort when someone refers to a particular editor as “vye”
>>>>>>>rather than
>>>>>>> “vee-eye”.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And don't let's get started on the GIF debate - "jiff" or "giff".
>>>>>> FWIW, I've
>>>>>> always pronounced it with a hard g (giff) but I'm quite happy if
>>>>>> some people
>>>>>> pronounce it jiff - I won't start a little-/big-endian war over it ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> One curiosity is the frequent incorrect capitalisation of 'raw', as in raw
>>>>> photographs. You can shoot JPEG and/or raw images, but not RAW images.
>>>>
>>>> It's capitalised because it's a file extension name, at one time it was
>>>> (and in some circles it still is) normal to capitalise file extensions
>>>> (eg, .DOC, .XLS, .TXT, .GIF, .COM, .EXE, .RAW, etc) whether or not they
>>>> are actually an abbreviation, mainly in order to distinguish them from
>>>> words that happen to share the same spelling.
>>>
>>> No, raw files from my cameras have extensions of .CR2, .RAF or .ORF.
>>
>> And what about cameras you haven't had?
>>
>>> “Raw” is a generic term, not a file extension.
>>
>> It could be both a generic terms and the file extension used by *some*
>> cameras.
>
>So cite one then. I've given a list of the extensions used by all the major
>remaining camera manufacturers; all you've contributed to the discussion is
>a hilariously bad cite, and quibbles. Why don't you simply accept that it's
>a subject you know absolutely nothing about, rather than continuing to
>demonstrate your ignorance? In return, I promise not to provide a running
>commentary on the trains through Ely.

Oh dear, quite a frenzy there.
--
Roland Perry

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Charles Ellson" <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:fl7vcg92bgru169c9aq8b78qmiukopn5ua@4ax.com...
>
>>>> Not very surprising, really. How many British dealers pronounce
>>>> Citroën,
>>>> Renault or Peugeot they way they do in France?
>>>
>>> Pronunciation has changed since the 1980s though, to be closer to the
>>> French pronunciation; they're no longer ren-olT and P-you-joT.
>>>
>> I've never heard the former pronounced other than renn-o except by
>> those who generally mutilate language.
>
>
> I've heard "ren-olt" in the 1970s when I was growing up in Leeds, though I
> think it was mainly my best friend and his family who pronounced it that
> way. Otherwise it's fairly ubiquitously "ren-oh": reasonably close to the
> French pronunciation.
>
> Peugeot seems to be "per-zhoh" everywhere: I've never heard "pyou-zhoh" or
> "pyou-jot" except in jest by someone deliberately stumbling over a foreign
> word, as if to make a point that "this is a foreign car". I hadn't realised
> that "pyou-zhoh" was more common than "per-zhoh" in Scotland.

I’m not convinced that it is.

> Citroën varies between "cit-ron", "cit-rern" and "cit-ro-en". The last is
> closest to French pronunciation, since the umlaut on the e denotes two
> vowels to be pronounced separately rather than as a diphthong - as in
> English words such as "noël" ("no-ell") and names such as Zoë ("zo-ee").

Nitpick: Diaresis rather than umlaut - that would mostly be German.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diaeresis_(diacritic)>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
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