"Sam Wilson" <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:satn0g$qet$2@dont-email.me...
> Before I was allergic to cats I thought I might have a troupe called
> Menzies, Milngavie, McFazean, Dalyell, Dalzell and Dalziel.

"Mingiz", "Mullguy", ?, "Dee-ell" * 3?

I presume the third was a typo for McFadzean. Is it pronounced "McFadyan"?
That Z is a common feature in Scottish names - apparently it used to be an
obsolete letter yogh which was written rather like a cursive-script z.

Kirkcudbright (Ker-COO-bree) and Culzean ("Cull-ayn") are other pitfalls in
Scottish (place) names.

And as someone mentioned, there are the surnames Cholmondley ("chumley") and
Featherstonehaugh ("fanshaw").

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Sam Wilson" <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:satn0g$qet$2@dont-email.me...
>> Before I was allergic to cats I thought I might have a troupe called
>> Menzies, Milngavie, McFazean, Dalyell, Dalzell and Dalziel.
>
> "Mingiz", "Mullguy", ?, "Dee-ell" * 3?
>
> I presume the third was a typo for McFadzean. Is it pronounced "McFadyan"?

Yes to all of that, missing “d” - sorry.

> That Z is a common feature in Scottish names - apparently it used to be an
> obsolete letter yogh which was written rather like a cursive-script z.
>
> Kirkcudbright (Ker-COO-bree) and Culzean ("Cull-ayn") are other pitfalls in
> Scottish (place) names.

Kirkcaldy, Culross, Ruthven - the list is extensive, though Sauchiehall St
isn’t as weird as some people seem to think.

> And as someone mentioned, there are the surnames Cholmondley ("chumley") and
> Featherstonehaugh ("fanshaw").

I’m definitely not any exclusivity for Scotland! I guess it’s partly
historical changes and partly the confusion of translation and
transliteration from other languages, particularly Gaelic and maybe less so
Welsh.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

"Sam Wilson" <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:savckn$tbr$1@dont-email.me...
> Kirkcaldy, Culross, Ruthven - the list is extensive, though Sauchiehall St
> isn’t as weird as some people seem to think.

Ker-codd-y, ?, Rivv-en. How is "Culross" pronounced? I've always pronounced
it as it it spelled - evidently wrongly ;-) Ah! I see that the L is silent.
I've learned something.

One that catches out a lot of people is the fact that the second K in
Kirkbymoorside (village in North Yorkshire) and Kirkgate (a common street
name in northern towns) is silent.

What is interesting is French words in place names. Beaulieu is pronounced
Byoo-lee, not bow-lyuh as it would be in *modern* French. Likewise Theydon
Bois and Chesham Bois ("bois" meaning "wood"): the "bois" is pronounced
boys, not bwah. Presumably they reflect the pronunciation of French in the
(Norman?) times when the British places were named.

Apparently Trottiscliffe in Kent and Woolfardisworthy in Dorset have each
proposed changing the spelling of their names to ones which more accurately
reflect the pronunciation: Troseley and Woolsery.

Sometimes the converse happens: the pronunciation changes to match the
spelling. Few people now pronounce waistcoat as "wes-kit" or forehead as
"forrid": both are now almost always pronounced as they are spelled:
waist-coat and fore-head.

NY wrote:

>What is interesting is French words in place names. Beaulieu is pronounced
>Byoo-lee, not bow-lyuh as it would be in *modern* French. Likewise Theydon
>Bois and Chesham Bois ("bois" meaning "wood"): the "bois" is pronounced
>boys, not bwah. Presumably they reflect the pronunciation of French in the
>(Norman?) times when the British places were named.

I've only recently discovered, possibly thanks to a Portillo
programme, that the American St Louis is pronounced Lewis, not as
in the popular song.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Sam Wilson" <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:sat3kg$6kr$1@dont-email.me...
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> (*) I think *most* names that end "-tham" don't pronounce the "th" as a
>>> diphthong. …
>>
>> Nitpick: a diphthong is two vowels together, not two consonents. I’m not
>> sure whether there is a word for that kind of language element as such.
>>
>>> … "-sham" names are more debatable: most people pronounce Amersham
>>> and Chesham with "sh", though I've heard a few older people refer to
>>> "Chess-ham" which is more logical because it's on the River Chess.
>>
>> Masham is always mass-um.
>
> Very true. How did I forget to cite that as an exception, given that I know
> the town well and was corrected by my parents long ago when I pronounced it
> Mash-um. My wife, who only knew of the name from the breed of sheep, learned
> it as Mazz-um.
>
> Likewise Bosham ("bozz-um") near Chichester.
>
>
> The difficulty comes when a spelling is simplified after two words have been
> merged: "Easthorpe" was presumably "East Thorpe" rather than "Eas Thorpe"
> before the words were merged and the double T eliminated. Likewise for
> Southampton which was presumably South Hampton. Never the less, both names
> are pronounced as if the eliminated double letter were still present.
>
>

I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
Edin-bruh.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

"Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>> The difficulty comes when a spelling is simplified after two words have
>> been
>> merged: "Easthorpe" was presumably "East Thorpe" rather than "Eas Thorpe"
>> before the words were merged and the double T eliminated. Likewise for
>> Southampton which was presumably South Hampton. Never the less, both
>> names
>> are pronounced as if the eliminated double letter were still present.
>>
>>
>
> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
> Edin-bruh.

I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in Southampton,
Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.

On 23/06/2021 22:11, NY wrote:
> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
> news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>>> The difficulty comes when a spelling is simplified after two words
>>> have been
>>> merged: "Easthorpe" was presumably "East Thorpe" rather than "Eas
>>> Thorpe"
>>> before the words were merged and the double T eliminated. Likewise for
>>> Southampton which was presumably South Hampton. Never the less, both
>>> names
>>> are pronounced as if the eliminated double letter were still present.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>> Edin-bruh.
>
> I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in
> Southampton, Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.

Depends on the size of the Hampton.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 22:08:16 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Jun 2021 10:25:07 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> "Charles Ellson" <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote in message
>>> news:fct1dghsep0vkuhjbq5vammq75ihsd36aa@4ax.com...
>>
>>> Names can be subject to all sorts of unusual and counter-intuitive
>>> pronunciations. The three that spring to mind are:
>>>
>>> Marlborough - pronounced Mawlborough (rather than first syllable rhyming
>>> with Charles) when referring to the public school.
>>>
>>> Harewood (village in Yorkshire, with a stately home) - pronounced Harwood
>>> (rather than Harewood - wood of hares) when referring to the House and the
>>> ducal title.
>>>
>>> Althorp (village in Northamptonshire, stately home where Princess of Wales
>>> is buried) - pronounced "Awltrop" (note reversal of O and R) rather than
>>> Al-thorp or Ol-thorp when referring to the House.
>>
>> Our road is named after the local Parish / Castle / family of
>> Cholmondeley pronounced Chum-Lee!
>
>Before I was allergic to cats I thought I might have a troupe called
>Menzies, Milngavie, McFazean, Dalyell, Dalzell and Dalziel.
>
Some of those are mis-spelled not mispronounced, the "z" should be the
letter known as yogh/yoch (like a "3" in the style of a printed "g".:-
https://www.thoughtco.com/yogh-letter-in-middle-english-1692452

Milngavie is an anglicisation of muileann gaoithe / meall na gaoithe,
sometimes alleged as muileann Dhàibhidh / Davie's mill.

On 24/06/2021 07:28, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 23/06/2021 22:11, NY wrote:
>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>> news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>>>> The difficulty comes when a spelling is simplified after two words
>>>> have been
>>>> merged: "Easthorpe" was presumably "East Thorpe" rather than "Eas
>>>> Thorpe"
>>>> before the words were merged and the double T eliminated. Likewise for
>>>> Southampton which was presumably South Hampton. Never the less, both
>>>> names
>>>> are pronounced as if the eliminated double letter were still present.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not
>>> the
>>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>>> Edin-bruh.
>>
>> I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in
>> Southampton, Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.
>
> Depends on the size of the Hampton.

Even a Littlehampton has aspirations.

On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 07:28:50 +0100, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 23/06/2021 22:11, NY wrote:
>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>> news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>>>> The difficulty comes when a spelling is simplified after two words
>>>> have been
>>>> merged: "Easthorpe" was presumably "East Thorpe" rather than "Eas
>>>> Thorpe"
>>>> before the words were merged and the double T eliminated. Likewise for
>>>> Southampton which was presumably South Hampton. Never the less, both
>>>> names
>>>> are pronounced as if the eliminated double letter were still present.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
>>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>>> Edin-bruh.
>>
>> I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in
>> Southampton, Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.
>
>Depends on the size of the Hampton.
>
Only Little- or Mid- available ?

In message <sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:53:04 on Wed, 23 Jun
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
>speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>Edin-bruh.

Locals often truncate town(/city) names, but how much is usage and how
much just accent?

Nottingham -> Not-Nam is perhaps usage, whereas
Norwich -> Narch (to rhyme with march) could be just accent.

[Both on the same railway route]

Of course Ely -> Ee-lie (as some news reporters perpetate) is plain
wrong.
--
Roland Perry

On 24/06/2021 07:28, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 23/06/2021 22:11, NY wrote:
>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>> news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>>>> The difficulty comes when a spelling is simplified after two words
>>>> have been
>>>> merged: "Easthorpe" was presumably "East Thorpe" rather than "Eas
>>>> Thorpe"
>>>> before the words were merged and the double T eliminated. Likewise for
>>>> Southampton which was presumably South Hampton. Never the less, both
>>>> names
>>>> are pronounced as if the eliminated double letter were still present.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not
>>> the
>>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>>> Edin-bruh.
>>
>> I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in
>> Southampton, Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.
>
> Depends on the size of the Hampton.

Very true. ;-)

When I first heard the rhyming-slang "hampton" I didn't understand the
link between "hampton" and "penis". It's a matter of word-association:
the first related word that came into my mind was "Court", not
"Wick" ;-)

On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 22:11:34 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

>"Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>
>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>> Edin-bruh.
>
>I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in Southampton,
>Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.

But do you pronounce the H in Birmingham, Nottingham or Tottenham?

Mark

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 22:11:34 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>> news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
>>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>>> Edin-bruh.
>>
>> I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in Southampton,
>> Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.
>
> But do you pronounce the H in Birmingham, Nottingham or Tottenham?

No, but my friend from Alabama does.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:14:00 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 22:11:34 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>>> news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>>>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
>>>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>>>> Edin-bruh.
>>>
>>> I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in Southampton,
>>> Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.
>>
>> But do you pronounce the H in Birmingham, Nottingham or Tottenham?
>
>No, but my friend from Alabama does.

He's probably a fan of that well-known soccer club, Totten-ham Hahtspur.

Mark

"Mark Goodge" <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e8k8dg97qm7l7k7ejq602nb0598e21imam@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 22:11:34 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>>news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not
>>> the
>>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>>> Edin-bruh.
>>
>>I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in
>>Southampton,
>>Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.
>
> But do you pronounce the H in Birmingham, Nottingham or Tottenham?

Yes. I don't make a big fuss over it, as Americans often do with -ham names,
but there is a hint on an H there.

And I only pronounce the D in Nottingham if my "dose" is blocked and I
"deed" some Tunes to help me breathe more easily ;-)

On 23/06/2021 21:53, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Sam Wilson" <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:sat3kg$6kr$1@dont-email.me...
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> (*) I think *most* names that end "-tham" don't pronounce the "th" as a
>>>> diphthong. …
>>>
>>> Nitpick: a diphthong is two vowels together, not two consonents. I’m not
>>> sure whether there is a word for that kind of language element as such.
>>>
>>>> … "-sham" names are more debatable: most people pronounce Amersham
>>>> and Chesham with "sh", though I've heard a few older people refer to
>>>> "Chess-ham" which is more logical because it's on the River Chess.
>>>
>>> Masham is always mass-um.
>>
>> Very true. How did I forget to cite that as an exception, given that I know
>> the town well and was corrected by my parents long ago when I pronounced it
>> Mash-um. My wife, who only knew of the name from the breed of sheep, learned
>> it as Mazz-um.
>>
>> Likewise Bosham ("bozz-um") near Chichester.
>>
>>
>> The difficulty comes when a spelling is simplified after two words have been
>> merged: "Easthorpe" was presumably "East Thorpe" rather than "Eas Thorpe"
>> before the words were merged and the double T eliminated. Likewise for
>> Southampton which was presumably South Hampton. Never the less, both names
>> are pronounced as if the eliminated double letter were still present.
>>
>>
>
> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
> Edin-bruh.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

I have always pronounced as spelt - Edin-burr in line with the Scots
spelling "burgh", not the English spelling "borough".

--
Colin

On 24/06/2021 13:57, ColinR wrote:
> On 23/06/2021 21:53, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Sam Wilson" <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:sat3kg$6kr$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> (*) I think *most* names that end "-tham" don't pronounce the "th"
>>>>> as a
>>>>> diphthong. …
>>>>
>>>> Nitpick: a diphthong is two vowels together, not two consonents.
>>>> I’m not
>>>> sure whether there is a word for that kind of language element as such.
>>>>
>>>>> … "-sham" names are more debatable: most people pronounce Amersham
>>>>> and Chesham with "sh", though I've heard a few older people refer to
>>>>> "Chess-ham" which is more logical because it's on the River Chess.
>>>>
>>>> Masham is always mass-um.
>>>
>>> Very true. How did I forget to cite that as an exception, given that
>>> I know
>>> the town well and was corrected by my parents long ago when I
>>> pronounced it
>>> Mash-um. My wife, who only knew of the name from the breed of sheep,
>>> learned
>>> it as Mazz-um.
>>>
>>> Likewise Bosham ("bozz-um") near Chichester.
>>>
>>> The difficulty comes when a spelling is simplified after two words
>>> have been
>>> merged: "Easthorpe" was presumably "East Thorpe" rather than "Eas
>>> Thorpe"
>>> before the words were merged and the double T eliminated. Likewise for
>>> Southampton which was presumably South Hampton. Never the less, both
>>> names
>>> are pronounced as if the eliminated double letter were still present.
>>
>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>> Edin-bruh.
>
> I have always pronounced as spelt - Edin-burr in line with the Scots
> spelling "burgh", not the English spelling "borough".

Wikipedia has /ˈɛdɪnbərə/, rhyming with "the". I almost agree, but with
the first schwa minimal and a secondary stress, more like /ˈɛdɪnˌbrə/.

In message <saqbd7$rnf$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:31:51 on Mon, 21 Jun
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <safr3t$i4b$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:52:29 on Thu, 17 Jun
>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> The issue here is what do some cameras [and not just the subset of
>>>> cameras some correspondents are familiar with] name the files by
>>>> default.
>>>
>>> So, please, name one, just one, or stop wittering on about it.
>>
>> Done.
>>
>>>>> .raw is also used (rarely) for certain audio files.
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that's emerged earlier.
>>
>>> Yes, and I learned something there. I know a lot about image files, but
>>> pretty much nothing about audio files. And, unlike you, I'm happy to
>>> admit my ignorance.
>>
>> You've got the sequence a bit muddled.
>>
>> While I know a lot about the science of filetypes, I didn't have a
>> particularly large number of them memorised.
>>
>> Which is why I used a specialist site, and what I saw there had a ring
>> of truth.
>
>The section about raw image files does not have the ring of truth. It's
>hilariously misinformed in almost every way.

Give an example. Which of the other potential originators of .raw files
do you have a quibble with?

>I can't speak for the later sections, which may or may not be as bad.
>
>> Perhaps it would have helped if I'd have added "look what I've
>> just discovered", but peppering postings here with that would soon
>> become tedious.
>>
>> It matters little what's inside the files (unless I was about to write
>> some image processing software, which I'm not).
>>
>> But look what I've just discovered from reading more about it: many of
>> the proprietary forms are modified TIFF, and that makes perfect sense.
>
>Except that they're not. Raws are mosaiced image files, while TIFFs and
>JPEGs have been demosaiced.

There's a huge number of sites out there which disagree with you. But
you should take that up with them. Or maybe you've decided to airbrush
out those raw files which *are* modified TIFF (maybe because they are
before your time).

>> But doesn't help me take better photos.
>
>Shooting raw and using good post-processing software (not the products
>listed in your misinformed 'source') would.

It's the composition which matters more in the photos I take. Maybe you
have different criteria (very technically polished, but boring
subjects?)
--
Roland Perry

In message <saqc3j$154$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:43:47 on Mon, 21 Jun
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>> Another site says "at some point the [Panasonic] .raw file extension was
>> changed to .rw2" which makes sense, as 'our second raw format'.
>>
>> Therefore if someone stumbles over a unattributed .raw file, I'd
>> continue to suggest they first see if it imports into suitable image
>> processing software.
>
>It's highly unlikely, so that would be poor advice.

When one stumbles over such files, it's often because they are on old
computers/discs that haven't been used for a decade.

My own .raw files (which circumstantial evidence suggests are from
Superbase) are dated 1996.

>No contemporary cameras use that extension. And even if some briefly
>did at the start of the digital era, almost no-one shot raw back then,

A bit of a waste of time the camera manufacturers providing the
facility, then.

Or do you really mean "I didn't shoot raw back then, so I'm assuming
no-one else did either".

> so such files simply won't be around today, and modern raw processing
>software won't be able to read them.

Photoshop has been mentioned on many sites as a possible processing
tool. Old copies are available (even if they've gone to the needless
bother of deleting the capability from modern versions).

The photoshop I use (just for jpeg cropping and resizing mainly, but
also rasterising PDFs) is dated 2002.

> Few people used raw files from Casio compact cameras, even
>when they were still made, and that model is from decades ago.

See earlier. FWIW I did try using raw files from a digital camera I had
in 2001, but they ate up so much space on the tiny (to modern eyes)
memory cards, so I decided to stick with the highest-resolution jpeg
they offered.

>So, in the modern era, RAW is not a file extension used by camera raw
>files.

That was not the question, Mr Goalpost-mover.

>If one comes across a .raw file, it won't be a camera image file.

Or it could quite well be. If not a camera image, which of the others do
you suggest - a 20yr old games console emulator perhaps?
--
Roland Perry

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jun 2021 10:14:00 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2021 22:11:34 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Anna Noyd-Dryver" <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:sb06vg$tcp$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>>>>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
>>>>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>>>>> Edin-bruh.
>>>>
>>>> I try to pronounce the H in Hampton, no matter whether it's in Southampton,
>>>> Northampton or Stadhampton - or any other -hampton.
>>>
>>> But do you pronounce the H in Birmingham, Nottingham or Tottenham?
>>
>> No, but my friend from Alabama does.
>
> He's probably a fan of that well-known soccer club, Totten-ham Hahtspur.

I doubt it, but he might think Balham is the Gateway To The South.

Sam

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NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Sam Wilson" <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:savckn$tbr$1@dont-email.me...
>> Kirkcaldy, Culross, Ruthven - the list is extensive, though Sauchiehall St
>> isn’t as weird as some people seem to think.
>
> Ker-codd-y, ?, Rivv-en. How is "Culross" pronounced? I've always pronounced
> it as it it spelled - evidently wrongly ;-) Ah! I see that the L is silent.
> I've learned something.
>
>
> One that catches out a lot of people is the fact that the second K in
> Kirkbymoorside (village in North Yorkshire) and Kirkgate (a common street
> name in northern towns) is silent.
>
> What is interesting is French words in place names. Beaulieu is pronounced
> Byoo-lee, not bow-lyuh as it would be in *modern* French. Likewise Theydon
> Bois and Chesham Bois ("bois" meaning "wood"): the "bois" is pronounced
> boys, not bwah. Presumably they reflect the pronunciation of French in the
> (Norman?) times when the British places were named.
>
> Apparently Trottiscliffe in Kent and Woolfardisworthy in Dorset have each
> proposed changing the spelling of their names to ones which more accurately
> reflect the pronunciation: Troseley and Woolsery.
>
> Sometimes the converse happens: the pronunciation changes to match the
> spelling. Few people now pronounce waistcoat as "wes-kit" or forehead as
> "forrid": both are now almost always pronounced as they are spelled:
> waist-coat and fore-head.

Wiveliscombe in Devon confused me when I cycled through it many years ago.
Wikipedia now tells me there are three ways to pronounce it and, as I
suspected, the locals contract it quite heavily.

Sam

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Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <saqc3j$154$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:43:47 on Mon, 21 Jun
> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> Another site says "at some point the [Panasonic] .raw file extension was
>>> changed to .rw2" which makes sense, as 'our second raw format'.
>>>
>>> Therefore if someone stumbles over a unattributed .raw file, I'd
>>> continue to suggest they first see if it imports into suitable image
>>> processing software.
>>
>> It's highly unlikely, so that would be poor advice.
>
> When one stumbles over such files, it's often because they are on old
> computers/discs that haven't been used for a decade.
>
> My own .raw files (which circumstantial evidence suggests are from
> Superbase) are dated 1996.
>
>> No contemporary cameras use that extension. And even if some briefly
>> did at the start of the digital era, almost no-one shot raw back then,
>
> A bit of a waste of time the camera manufacturers providing the
> facility, then.
>
> Or do you really mean "I didn't shoot raw back then, so I'm assuming
> no-one else did either".

He probably means “you may remember that memory was so expensive in those
days that shooting in raw meant most people only got about 10[*] images on
your storage device”.

[*] And when I say 10 I may be exaggerating for effect, but since JPEG
typically compresses to about 10% of the original image size then you’d
only get roughly 1/10 as many pictures in storage with raw as with JPEG.
My original digital camera (2003) was 3 Mpx which implies about 9 MB for a
raw image. ISTR that it came with a laughable 16 MB card in the box, so
you can see the problem; I supplemented that with a 256 MB and later a 512
MB card.

> [snip]
>
>> If one comes across a .raw file, it won't be a camera image file.
>
> Or it could quite well be. If not a camera image, which of the others do
> you suggest - a 20yr old games console emulator perhaps?

Someone has already suggested an audio processing app, IIRC, and you’ve
also suggested SuperBase above. Why so snarky?

Sam

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Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 24/06/2021 13:57, ColinR wrote:
>> On 23/06/2021 21:53, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "Sam Wilson" <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:sat3kg$6kr$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (*) I think *most* names that end "-tham" don't pronounce the "th"
>>>>>> as a
>>>>>> diphthong. …
>>>>>
>>>>> Nitpick: a diphthong is two vowels together, not two consonents.
>>>>> I’m not
>>>>> sure whether there is a word for that kind of language element as such.
>>>>>
>>>>>> … "-sham" names are more debatable: most people pronounce Amersham
>>>>>> and Chesham with "sh", though I've heard a few older people refer to
>>>>>> "Chess-ham" which is more logical because it's on the River Chess.
>>>>>
>>>>> Masham is always mass-um.
>>>>
>>>> Very true. How did I forget to cite that as an exception, given that
>>>> I know
>>>> the town well and was corrected by my parents long ago when I
>>>> pronounced it
>>>> Mash-um. My wife, who only knew of the name from the breed of sheep,
>>>> learned
>>>> it as Mazz-um.
>>>>
>>>> Likewise Bosham ("bozz-um") near Chichester.
>>>>
>>>> The difficulty comes when a spelling is simplified after two words
>>>> have been
>>>> merged: "Easthorpe" was presumably "East Thorpe" rather than "Eas
>>>> Thorpe"
>>>> before the words were merged and the double T eliminated. Likewise for
>>>> Southampton which was presumably South Hampton. Never the less, both
>>>> names
>>>> are pronounced as if the eliminated double letter were still present.
>>>
>>> I hear (and indeed use) SouthHampton and SouthAmpton interchangeably.
>>> Similarly for NorthAmpton. I think it depends entirely whether or not the
>>> speaker is being clear with their diction, similar to Edin-borough or
>>> Edin-bruh.
>>
>> I have always pronounced as spelt - Edin-burr in line with the Scots
>> spelling "burgh", not the English spelling "borough".
>
> Wikipedia has /ˈɛdɪnbərə/, rhyming with "the". I almost agree, but with
> the first schwa minimal and a secondary stress, more like /ˈɛdɪnˌbrə/.

“Embra” is the local informal spelling.

Sam

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In message <sb2d1m$2g6$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:48:54 on Thu, 24 Jun
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <saqc3j$154$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:43:47 on Mon, 21 Jun
>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Another site says "at some point the [Panasonic] .raw file extension was
>>>> changed to .rw2" which makes sense, as 'our second raw format'.
>>>>
>>>> Therefore if someone stumbles over a unattributed .raw file, I'd
>>>> continue to suggest they first see if it imports into suitable image
>>>> processing software.
>>>
>>> It's highly unlikely, so that would be poor advice.
>>
>> When one stumbles over such files, it's often because they are on old
>> computers/discs that haven't been used for a decade.
>>
>> My own .raw files (which circumstantial evidence suggests are from
>> Superbase) are dated 1996.
>>
>>> No contemporary cameras use that extension. And even if some briefly
>>> did at the start of the digital era, almost no-one shot raw back then,
>>
>> A bit of a waste of time the camera manufacturers providing the
>> facility, then.
>>
>> Or do you really mean "I didn't shoot raw back then, so I'm assuming
>> no-one else did either".
>
>He probably means “you may remember that memory was so expensive in those
>days that shooting in raw meant most people only got about 10[*] images on
>your storage device”.

I mentioned that already, but even *if* RAW shooting was restricted to a
few professionals (for example I saw an estate agent taking some
pictures of the outside of a house yesterday, and he was fiddling around
with his tripod-mounted camera for at least a minute for each) they can
not only afford a bigger card, and also not be too inconvenienced at
having to swap cards every few photos. After all, back in the day,
they'd have swapped the whole photographic plate between shots, and
possibly even have taken some Polaroid draft shots to get the
composition right.

And most importantly, none of this is evidence that raw (and .raw) image
files did not exist.

>[*] And when I say 10 I may be exaggerating for effect, but since JPEG
>typically compresses to about 10% of the original image size then you’d
>only get roughly 1/10 as many pictures in storage with raw as with JPEG.
>My original digital camera (2003) was 3 Mpx which implies about 9 MB for a
>raw image. ISTR that it came with a laughable 16 MB card in the box, so
>you can see the problem; I supplemented that with a 256 MB and later a 512
>MB card.

The first digital camera I owned (an Olympus) didn't take cards at all.
You were stuck with the internal memory. Looking at some download
directories I reckon it had 4MB - roughly 32 shots. In practice it was
necessary to weed out the dross as soon as you'd taken them, rather than
wait until you got home.

The first one with a card was supplied with 256k! (Just sufficient to
prove the camera worked at all, to give a demo in the shop). Immediately
upgraded to 2MB, and later 64MB. I don't claim any of those supported a
raw format. 64MB was at that stage the biggest size camera hardware
tended to support.

The next one, which rather like yours came with a 16MB card, did have
raw files, but as well as eating up the card, were also quite slow to be
stored. I bought a supplementary 64MB card again (sadly, different
format required) and by the time the camera was retired I had upgraded
to a 4GB card.

>> [snip]
>>
>>> If one comes across a .raw file, it won't be a camera image file.
>>
>> Or it could quite well be. If not a camera image, which of the others do
>> you suggest - a 20yr old games console emulator perhaps?
>
>Someone has already suggested an audio processing app, IIRC, and you’ve
>also suggested SuperBase above. Why so snarky?

It's a reasonable question. We've been told that a site (actually there
are several) which specialises in the reverse lookup of file types has
so many obvious inaccuracies that we should completely discount its
results [even though the ".raw = Casio" historical fact is copied from
that manufacturer's website].

I was wondering if our correspondent had any views on which of the
alternative reported uses of .raw were more plausible.
--
Roland Perry