On 2023-04-01, Bob Henson <fake@obfuscation.net> wrote:
> On 1/4/23 5:26 pm, John Williamson wrote:
>> On 01/04/2023 16:13, chrisnd@privacy.net wrote:
>>
>>> Wow!
>>> Mined ewe, it is only recently that I discovered the importance of
>>> turning off something called NFC in my phone when it isn't in use (which
>>> is never).
>>>
>> As soon as I found out about it, I disabled it. Too many ways to
>> accidentally spend money, even if you've not been hacked.
>>
>>> It is scary that so many potential vulnerabilities are turned on by
>>> default (or re-enabled during updates!)
>>>
>> True. Most of them are related to stuff I neither need nor want. If I
>> want to tell someone my details, it's as easy to send them a text as it
>> is to turn the NFC on, activate the app and wander over until our phones
>> can have a nice cosy chat. To pay for stuff, I have a contactless card
>> which never leaves my sight except when it's in my wallet, and the only
>> problem I've had with that was a couple of days after I made my first
>> ever on line purchase using the Digital River, when someone used the
>> details to twice pull 500 USD out of a bank machine 8,000 miles from
>> where I'd just paid for my groceries.
>>
>>
>
> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned and
> subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a passive RF
> protection card next to it in your wallet.
>
our old friend, tinfoil. Some shops have security things that can detect
things llike that. Why do you think the metal strips are on banknotes.

All these thing are to frighten people.

(BTW, I think there is a law that allows shops to do that, as part of
allowing you to enter the shop.)

I used to sit near the entrance when my wife went shopping and I would
watch the professional shoplifters in action. Most of the stuff
shoplifted was by the staff.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

Tim+ wrote:

> Bob Henson wrote:
>
>> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned and
>> subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a passive RF
>> protection card next to it in your wallet.
>
> I threw away my tin foil hat. Much happier without it. My cards ride
> “bareback” and I have NFC on.

My bank's T&C say that as long as it's not *me* being fraudulent, then
any fraudulent contactless transactions are covered by them in exactly
the same way as they cover fraudulent chip-and-pin transactions, so I
don't worry about it.

On 01/04/2023 19:56, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
> Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>
>>> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned and
>>> subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a passive RF
>>> protection card next to it in your wallet.
>>
>> I threw away my tin foil hat. Much happier without it. My cards ride
>> “bareback” and I have NFC on.
>
> My bank's T&C say that as long as it's not *me* being fraudulent, then
> any fraudulent contactless transactions are covered by them in exactly
> the same way as they cover fraudulent chip-and-pin transactions, so I
> don't worry about it.
>
>

+1

Tone

On 01/04/2023 19:56, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
> Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>
>>> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned and
>>> subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a passive RF
>>> protection card next to it in your wallet.
>>
>> I threw away my tin foil hat. Much happier without it. My cards ride
>> “bareback” and I have NFC on.
>
> My bank's T&C say that as long as it's not *me* being fraudulent, then
> any fraudulent contactless transactions are covered by them in exactly
> the same way as they cover fraudulent chip-and-pin transactions, so I
> don't worry about it.
>
>
True for cards, but the problems start when someone hacks your phone,
using NFC, and the bank then claim you used the correct PIN in the app.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Tease'n'Seize <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:
> Tim+ wrote:
>
>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>
>>> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned and
>>> subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a passive RF
>>> protection card next to it in your wallet.
>>
>> I threw away my tin foil hat. Much happier without it. My cards ride
>> “bareback” and I have NFC on.
>
> My bank's T&C say that as long as it's not *me* being fraudulent, then
> any fraudulent contactless transactions are covered by them in exactly
> the same way as they cover fraudulent chip-and-pin transactions, so I
> don't worry about it.
>

This.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 01/04/2023 19:56, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>> Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned and
>>>> subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a passive RF
>>>> protection card next to it in your wallet.
>>>
>>> I threw away my tin foil hat. Much happier without it. My cards ride
>>> “bareback” and I have NFC on.
>>
>> My bank's T&C say that as long as it's not *me* being fraudulent, then
>> any fraudulent contactless transactions are covered by them in exactly
>> the same way as they cover fraudulent chip-and-pin transactions, so I
>> don't worry about it.
>>
>>
> True for cards, but the problems start when someone hacks your phone,
> using NFC, and the bank then claim you used the correct PIN in the app.
>

I doubt any banking PINs are stored on the phone. Besides, most folk use
fingerprint or facial ID.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 01/04/2023 20:20, Tim+ wrote:

> I doubt any banking PINs are stored on the phone. Besides, most folk use
> fingerprint or facial ID.
>
> Tim
>
Tell the guy that got hacked that. You'll likely find that the biometric
ID is only used locally to send a "PIN generated" hash to the bank's server.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote in
news:2030632876.702069599.319990.tim.downie-gmail.com@news.individual.net
:

> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On 01/04/2023 19:56, Tease'n'Seize wrote:
>>> Tim+ wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned
>>>>> and subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a
>>>>> passive RF protection card next to it in your wallet.
>>>>
>>>> I threw away my tin foil hat. Much happier without it. My cards
>>>> ride “bareback” and I have NFC on.
>>>
>>> My bank's T&C say that as long as it's not *me* being fraudulent,
>>> then any fraudulent contactless transactions are covered by them in
>>> exactly the same way as they cover fraudulent chip-and-pin
>>> transactions, so I don't worry about it.
>>>
>>>
>> True for cards, but the problems start when someone hacks your phone,
>> using NFC, and the bank then claim you used the correct PIN in the
>> app.
>>
>
> I doubt any banking PINs are stored on the phone. Besides, most folk
> use fingerprint or facial ID.

Yes. I leave NFC on and leave my cards without their tinfoil hat. Although
NFC has a theoretical maximum of 4cms any practical NFC scanner needs to be
just a couple of mms away from the card. It doesn't just read the card, it
has to power it as well, by induction.

--
Peter
-----

On 01/04/2023 21:21, Peter wrote:

> Yes. I leave NFC on and leave my cards without their tinfoil hat. Although
> NFC has a theoretical maximum of 4cms any practical NFC scanner needs to be
> just a couple of mms away from the card. It doesn't just read the card, it
> has to power it as well, by induction.
>
The NFC circuitry in the phone uses the phone's power to transmit, so
can be contacted from up to 10 cm (4 inches) away. Much more than that
would need a more powerful base station sender, and maybe a cooled
receiver input stage.

Supermarket card readers can read my contactless cards at about 6mm from
the antenna.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in
news:k8rj9jF1j23U1@mid.individual.net:

> On 01/04/2023 21:21, Peter wrote:
>
>> Yes. I leave NFC on and leave my cards without their tinfoil hat.
>> Although NFC has a theoretical maximum of 4cms any practical NFC
>> scanner needs to be just a couple of mms away from the card. It
>> doesn't just read the card, it has to power it as well, by induction.
>>
> The NFC circuitry in the phone uses the phone's power to transmit, so
> can be contacted from up to 10 cm (4 inches) away. Much more than that
> would need a more powerful base station sender, and maybe a cooled
> receiver input stage.
>
> Supermarket card readers can read my contactless cards at about 6mm
> from the antenna.
Have you looked at the information stored on your cards?

--
Peter
-----

On 1/4/23 7:20 pm, maus wrote:
> On 2023-04-01, Bob Henson <fake@obfuscation.net> wrote:
>> On 1/4/23 5:26 pm, John Williamson wrote:
>>> On 01/04/2023 16:13, chrisnd@privacy.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wow!
>>>> Mined ewe, it is only recently that I discovered the importance of
>>>> turning off something called NFC in my phone when it isn't in use (which
>>>> is never).
>>>>
>>> As soon as I found out about it, I disabled it. Too many ways to
>>> accidentally spend money, even if you've not been hacked.
>>>
>>>> It is scary that so many potential vulnerabilities are turned on by
>>>> default (or re-enabled during updates!)
>>>>
>>> True. Most of them are related to stuff I neither need nor want. If I
>>> want to tell someone my details, it's as easy to send them a text as it
>>> is to turn the NFC on, activate the app and wander over until our phones
>>> can have a nice cosy chat. To pay for stuff, I have a contactless card
>>> which never leaves my sight except when it's in my wallet, and the only
>>> problem I've had with that was a couple of days after I made my first
>>> ever on line purchase using the Digital River, when someone used the
>>> details to twice pull 500 USD out of a bank machine 8,000 miles from
>>> where I'd just paid for my groceries.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned and
>> subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a passive RF
>> protection card next to it in your wallet.
>>
> our old friend, tinfoil. Some shops have security things that can detect
> things llike that. Why do you think the metal strips are on banknotes.
>
> All these thing are to frighten people.
>
> (BTW, I think there is a law that allows shops to do that, as part of
> allowing you to enter the shop.)
>
> I used to sit near the entrance when my wife went shopping and I would
> watch the professional shoplifters in action. Most of the stuff
> shoplifted was by the staff.
>

The latter is very true. Many years ago I listened to a retail security
expert who told us that all the cameras in their supermarkets were
trained on the tills. The items being billed came up on the watcher's
screen so that they could see when only one bottle of booze came up on
the till roll, but the camera showed two bottles going to the shop
staff's friend who was "buying" them.

--
Regards,

Bob

Inside every old man is a young man wondering what the hell happened.

On 2023-04-02, Bob Henson <fake@obfuscation.net> wrote:
> On 1/4/23 7:20 pm, maus wrote:
>> On 2023-04-01, Bob Henson <fake@obfuscation.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/4/23 5:26 pm, John Williamson wrote:
>>>> On 01/04/2023 16:13, chrisnd@privacy.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Wow!
>>>>> Mined ewe, it is only recently that I discovered the importance of
>>>>> turning off something called NFC in my phone when it isn't in use (which
>>>>> is never).
>>>>>
>>>> As soon as I found out about it, I disabled it. Too many ways to
>>>> accidentally spend money, even if you've not been hacked.
>>>>
>>>>> It is scary that so many potential vulnerabilities are turned on by
>>>>> default (or re-enabled during updates!)
>>>>>
>>>> True. Most of them are related to stuff I neither need nor want. If I
>>>> want to tell someone my details, it's as easy to send them a text as it
>>>> is to turn the NFC on, activate the app and wander over until our phones
>>>> can have a nice cosy chat. To pay for stuff, I have a contactless card
>>>> which never leaves my sight except when it's in my wallet, and the only
>>>> problem I've had with that was a couple of days after I made my first
>>>> ever on line purchase using the Digital River, when someone used the
>>>> details to twice pull 500 USD out of a bank machine 8,000 miles from
>>>> where I'd just paid for my groceries.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned and
>>> subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a passive RF
>>> protection card next to it in your wallet.
>>>
>> our old friend, tinfoil. Some shops have security things that can detect
>> things llike that. Why do you think the metal strips are on banknotes.
>>
>> All these thing are to frighten people.
>>
>> (BTW, I think there is a law that allows shops to do that, as part of
>> allowing you to enter the shop.)
>>
>> I used to sit near the entrance when my wife went shopping and I would
>> watch the professional shoplifters in action. Most of the stuff
>> shoplifted was by the staff.
>>
>
>
> The latter is very true. Many years ago I listened to a retail security
> expert who told us that all the cameras in their supermarkets were
> trained on the tills. The items being billed came up on the watcher's
> screen so that they could see when only one bottle of booze came up on
> the till roll, but the camera showed two bottles going to the shop
> staff's friend who was "buying" them.
>
>
Another trick was for the shopworker to leave stuff stuffed into
unusuall places, with the dongles removed, her 'mostly `her'' would be
shopping and get the thing out the usual way. There was the other thing,
the well known shoplifter would pretend to be stealing, stopped on the
way out, and when nothing would be found, sue the shop.

As I wrote, while my wife was shopping, I and a few more old guys would
sit and watch all this, better than TV.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 09:52:06 +0100
Bob Henson <fake@obfuscation.net> wrote:

> The latter is very true. Many years ago I listened to a retail security
> expert who told us that all the cameras in their supermarkets were
> trained on the tills. The items being billed came up on the watcher's
> screen so that they could see when only one bottle of booze came up on
> the till roll, but the camera showed two bottles going to the shop
> staff's friend who was "buying" them.

I wonder if anyone has managed to shoplift in one of the Amazon
supermarkets (are they still going, I forgot to visit one last time I was
in Seattle and I'm unlikely to be going there again now) it ought to be
impossible.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 02/04/2023 09:45, Peter wrote:
> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote in
>> Supermarket card readers can read my contactless cards at about 6mm
>> from the antenna.
>
> Have you looked at the information stored on your cards?
>
>
Can't be @rsed.

All that concerns me is that when the reader wakes it up, it returns the
card number and a code it generates afresh each time that says to the
bank "Yup, it's me". Once that key is generated, the transaction is done
and verified on line, either by a dedicated line or via the internet.
There are ways to capture the card details, and with some hacking, the
card can then be used by a third party. This is why the card never
leaves my sight when buying stuff, as the hack (At the moment) requires
a second reader. I also look closely at any ATM I use, as it can also be
hacked using an attached, disguised, reader and camera attached to the ATM.

The account details (Card number, account number, sort code and expiry
date) are held in an unencrypted format on the stripe, and are stored in
an encrypted form on the flash memory in the chip that does all the work.

I do own a smart card reader I use to read my Tachograph card, and if
ICBA, I could probably get summat off the Dark Web to get the details
off the card.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 02/04/2023 09:52, Bob Henson wrote:

> The latter is very true. Many years ago I listened to a retail security
> expert who told us that all the cameras in their supermarkets were
> trained on the tills. The items being billed came up on the watcher's
> screen so that they could see when only one bottle of booze came up on
> the till roll, but the camera showed two bottles going to the shop
> staff's friend who was "buying" them.
>
>
This is not a new problem. In the early days of supermarkets and
department stores, prices were set at a penny or halfpenny below the
nearest currency values, so the till operator had to open the till to
make change, instead of just pocketing the shilling or whatever. <Grin>
The customers didn't realise they were part of the store security system.

For many years, shop staff were required to wear only the complete
uniform at work, and said uniforms had no pockets. Handbags, purses,
wallets and such had to be left in their lockers. There were and
possibly still are, rules that prevent till staff from operating the
till for their own grocery shop.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 2023-04-02, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 09:52:06 +0100
> Bob Henson <fake@obfuscation.net> wrote:
>
>> The latter is very true. Many years ago I listened to a retail security
>> expert who told us that all the cameras in their supermarkets were
>> trained on the tills. The items being billed came up on the watcher's
>> screen so that they could see when only one bottle of booze came up on
>> the till roll, but the camera showed two bottles going to the shop
>> staff's friend who was "buying" them.
>
> I wonder if anyone has managed to shoplift in one of the Amazon
> supermarkets (are they still going, I forgot to visit one last time I was
> in Seattle and I'm unlikely to be going there again now) it ought to be
> impossible.
>

There is always someone smarter. I remember one guy trying to forge
tickets for a football match, when he couuld buy them cheaper.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On 2023-04-02, John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On 02/04/2023 09:52, Bob Henson wrote:
>
>> The latter is very true. Many years ago I listened to a retail security
>> expert who told us that all the cameras in their supermarkets were
>> trained on the tills. The items being billed came up on the watcher's
>> screen so that they could see when only one bottle of booze came up on
>> the till roll, but the camera showed two bottles going to the shop
>> staff's friend who was "buying" them.
>>
>>
> This is not a new problem. In the early days of supermarkets and
> department stores, prices were set at a penny or halfpenny below the
> nearest currency values, so the till operator had to open the till to
> make change, instead of just pocketing the shilling or whatever. <Grin>
> The customers didn't realise they were part of the store security system.
>
> For many years, shop staff were required to wear only the complete
> uniform at work, and said uniforms had no pockets. Handbags, purses,
> wallets and such had to be left in their lockers. There were and
> possibly still are, rules that prevent till staff from operating the
> till for their own grocery shop.
>

I remember the story of the armed robber who would first presend a
fairly high domination note, and when the assistant would open the till
, produce the gun and grab what cash was available. It turned out to be
losing money.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 11:12:18 +0100
John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:

> This is not a new problem. In the early days of supermarkets and
> department stores, prices were set at a penny or halfpenny below the
> nearest currency values, so the till operator had to open the till to
> make change, instead of just pocketing the shilling or whatever. <Grin>
> The customers didn't realise they were part of the store security system.

So it wasn't just marketing psychology (9.95 that's cheap, 10.05
that's expensive) ? I'd always heard that no matter how silly it seems it
increased sales but your explanation makes a *lot* of sense when moving from
an era where the till was run by the most trusted person in the shop to an
era when many tills were run by low wage workers.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 01/04/2023 20:13, Tim+ wrote:
> Tease'n'Seize <tease-and-seize@invalid> wrote:
>> Tim+ wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Henson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Don't think your card is safe in your wallet, it can be scanned and
>>>> subsequently cloned by anyone passing close. I'd recommend a passive RF
>>>> protection card next to it in your wallet.
>>>
>>> I threw away my tin foil hat. Much happier without it. My cards ride
>>> “bareback” and I have NFC on.
>>
>> My bank's T&C say that as long as it's not *me* being fraudulent, then
>> any fraudulent contactless transactions are covered by them in exactly
>> the same way as they cover fraudulent chip-and-pin transactions, so I
>> don't worry about it.
>>
>
> This.
>
> Tim
>

But do you really want to go through all the hassle of trying to get
your money back when the problem is easily avoided?
Just turn the NFC on when/if you need it.
My son (who alerted me to the problem) briefly 'lost' a wad of cash when
using his card to pay on a bus. He had initial trouble explaining that
the payment really wasn't his.
Since then, NFC off, contactless card in RFI sleeve and only enough cash
on there for the day's upcoming needs.

HTH, Chris

On 02/04/2023 11:04, John Williamson wrote:
> I do own a smart card reader I use to read my Tachograph card, and if
> ICBA, I could probably get summat off the Dark Web to get the details
> off the card.

I totally unforget the outcry when manual tachos came in. "The spy in
the cab" they were called! Even wrote a song about it!

But for many years we treated tacho cards with contempt. I always had my
own box of them, and frequently threw old ones out of the window.
'Frizbies' we called 'em.

I constantly unremembered to change over the mode to 'break', or fill in
personal details.

Never worked with digital tachos. I came off the road in 1999. But I
imagine they are a nightmare, giving you no leeway whatsoever?

Do you still have to register break periods manually or does it assume
when the wheels aren't turning, that you are on a break? What happens if
you are stuck in a traffic queueueue on the M6?

Of course most of our 'breaks' were actually loading and unloading and
roping and sheeting times, so not 'breaks' at all.

I just couldn't drive lorries now, with all the control they have over
you on the road, cabcams, incab phones, tracking. I'd hate it.

The joy of driving used to be the fact that once out of the yard you
were your own boss. The real boss in the yard didn't care how you got
the job done as long as you did, and if ever there was a tacho card
records inspection, the inspector was bribable.

Much better days.

Tone

On 02/04/2023 11:56, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 11:12:18 +0100
> John Williamson <johnwilliamson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> This is not a new problem. In the early days of supermarkets and
>> department stores, prices were set at a penny or halfpenny below the
>> nearest currency values, so the till operator had to open the till to
>> make change, instead of just pocketing the shilling or whatever. <Grin>
>> The customers didn't realise they were part of the store security system.
>
> So it wasn't just marketing psychology (9.95 that's cheap, 10.05
> that's expensive) ? I'd always heard that no matter how silly it seems it
> increased sales but your explanation makes a *lot* of sense when moving from
> an era where the till was run by the most trusted person in the shop to an
> era when many tills were run by low wage workers.
>
Increasing sales was a side effect that was noticed later.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 02/04/2023 12:06, Tone wrote:
> On 02/04/2023 11:04, John Williamson wrote:
>> I do own a smart card reader I use to read my Tachograph card, and if
>> ICBA, I could probably get summat off the Dark Web to get the details
>> off the card.
>
> I totally unforget the outcry when manual tachos came in. "The spy in
> the cab" they were called! Even wrote a song about it!
>
> But for many years we treated tacho cards with contempt. I always had my
> own box of them, and frequently threw old ones out of the window.
> 'Frizbies' we called 'em.
>
> I constantly unremembered to change over the mode to 'break', or fill in
> personal details.
>
> Never worked with digital tachos. I came off the road in 1999. But I
> imagine they are a nightmare, giving you no leeway whatsoever?
>
> Do you still have to register break periods manually or does it assume
> when the wheels aren't turning, that you are on a break? What happens if
> you are stuck in a traffic queueueue on the M6?
>
> Of course most of our 'breaks' were actually loading and unloading and
> roping and sheeting times, so not 'breaks' at all.
>
> I just couldn't drive lorries now, with all the control they have over
> you on the road, cabcams, incab phones, tracking. I'd hate it.

Prior to retirement, my 11 years driving covered the change from most
vehicles on tacho discs to digital. The latter still had the issue of
forgetting to change over to breaks - although one firm had it set to
default to breaks every time you stopped. Traffic queues were
nightmares - for example I remember once being stuck on the M25 and
having to pull over. I was not alone. Nobody cared.

I got the impression that the tacho only really mattered when something
went wrong. Then you would be hauled over the coals - so best not to
chance it.

> The joy of driving used to be the fact that once out of the yard you
> were your own boss. The real boss in the yard didn't care how you got
> the job done as long as you did, and if ever there was a tacho card
> records inspection, the inspector was bribable.

I was glad I left when I did. My nearest near misses were down to the
truck miss-sensing where it was in 'adaptive cruise control'[1] and
nearly taking off the rear end of a vehicle. Another was in the
'automatic lane sensing'[2] where the horrendous alarm that repeatedly
went off when I had to straddle a line through roadworks was
'incompatible with continuing to drive safely'!

Chris
[1][2] Both were habitually disabled on entry to a cab thereafter.

On 02/04/2023 12:06, Tone wrote:
> On 02/04/2023 11:04, John Williamson wrote:
>> I do own a smart card reader I use to read my Tachograph card, and if
>> ICBA, I could probably get summat off the Dark Web to get the details
>> off the card.
>
> I totally unforget the outcry when manual tachos came in. "The spy in
> the cab" they were called! Even wrote a song about it!
>
I started driving just before the change from log books. The older guys
hated them, us young un's saw them as a way to stop the boss telling us
to work all the hours God sent us.

> But for many years we treated tacho cards with contempt. I always had my
> own box of them, and frequently threw old ones out of the window.
> 'Frizbies' we called 'em.
>
<Grin> I still do call 'em that.

> I constantly unremembered to change over the mode to 'break', or fill in
> personal details.
>
The later ones had a semi automatic mode, so most of us leave the mode
switch on rest, and when you start moving it triggers the driving mode
until your stop.

I has worsd with a cop in Germany once, and he kindly filled the details
in for me, and then charged me for doing it. (I'd cut it a bit tight at
the hotel that morning in Belgium, and all I'd written in was the start
mileage.)

> Never worked with digital tachos. I came off the road in 1999. But I
> imagine they are a nightmare, giving you no leeway whatsoever?
>
You and the bosses learn to live within the rules. It's not only the
Ministry that check them, either. The boss has the same machine I do,
but his can read more detail than I paid for. He can also download the
head data, which includes speed data for the previous 24 hours of
driving time, if there's a report of a problem.

Not long after the digital tachos came in and all the hours rules
changed, I was asked to re-write the Ministry advice so drivers could
understand it. We never had any problems after that. I even told the
boss off when she got it wrong. (About as often as I told a fellow
driver that, "Yes, they *are* allowed to ask you to do that")

> Do you still have to register break periods manually or does it assume
> when the wheels aren't turning, that you are on a break? What happens if
> you are stuck in a traffic queueueue on the M6?
>
That depends on the type of head unit and the way it is set. Most of
them can be left on rest, and only register that and driving. Others
have "other work" as the default, and you need to tell them that, no you
*are* on a break now. I keep getting sarky letters from the boss about
those, as I don't have the correct habits. Some operators also expect us
to use the "Out of scope" driving mode when we're mixing private hire
and contract or stage carriage work in the same day or week.

> Of course most of our 'breaks' were actually loading and unloading and
> roping and sheeting times, so not 'breaks' at all.
>
That still happens. For us, cleaning the coach and doing paperwork while
we're hanging round is, legally speaking, work. There's even a mode for
when we are not actually on a legally required break and are just
hanging round, gassing or sleeping. Err, sorry, waiting anxiously for
our passengers to return. ;-)

> I just couldn't drive lorries now, with all the control they have over
> you on the road, cabcams, incab phones, tracking. I'd hate it.
>
You get used to it, and I find it helpful if I'm stuck and the boss can
call the client to warn them I'm going to be late. I've even had more
friends use the dashcam as defence than to prove they were in the wrong.
It's even been known for the tacho record to get a driver off a speeding
fine or parking ticket as well as get an insurance claim enforced
against an idiot driver that hit him and claimed the opposite.

> The joy of driving used to be the fact that once out of the yard you
> were your own boss. The real boss in the yard didn't care how you got
> the job done as long as you did, and if ever there was a tacho card
> records inspection, the inspector was bribable.
>
I still am treated that way, though sweet talking the inspectors is more
effective than bribes. I've got away with a few problems that could have
cost me a fortune with a glib excuse. (13 hours driving and an 18 hour
day going from Stoke on Trent to Paris.) ;-)

> Much better days.
>
Yes and no. The job has changed, with more stress when driving, and
stricter rules, but do I want to go back to brakes and steering that
were more of a hope than a certainty and working so long I had to stop
for a nap before I fell asleep at the wheel? Not so much. The job for me
is still the same as it's been for the last 45 years. Keep the
passengers happy and safe. The only change has been the tools. Even the
passengers are still the same mix of annoying and great people.

Occasionally you find a boss who's a right @rse, but I've learned to
avoid those.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 02/04/2023 12:33, chrisnd@privacy.net wrote:
> On 02/04/2023 12:06, Tone wrote:
>> On 02/04/2023 11:04, John Williamson wrote:
>>> I do own a smart card reader I use to read my Tachograph card, and if
>>> ICBA, I could probably get summat off the Dark Web to get the details
>>> off the card.
>>
>> I totally unforget the outcry when manual tachos came in. "The spy in
>> the cab" they were called! Even wrote a song about it!
>>
>> But for many years we treated tacho cards with contempt. I always had
>> my own box of them, and frequently threw old ones out of the window.
>> 'Frizbies' we called 'em.
>>
>> I constantly unremembered to change over the mode to 'break', or fill
>> in personal details.
>>
>> Never worked with digital tachos. I came off the road in 1999. But I
>> imagine they are a nightmare, giving you no leeway whatsoever?
>>
>> Do you still have to register break periods manually or does it assume
>> when the wheels aren't turning, that you are on a break? What happens
>> if you are stuck in a traffic queueueue on the M6?
>>
>> Of course most of our 'breaks' were actually loading and unloading and
>> roping and sheeting times, so not 'breaks' at all.
>>
>> I just couldn't drive lorries now, with all the control they have over
>> you on the road, cabcams, incab phones, tracking. I'd hate it.
>
> Prior to retirement, my 11 years driving covered the change from most
> vehicles on tacho discs to digital. The latter still had the issue of
> forgetting to change over to breaks - although one firm had it set to
> default to breaks every time you stopped. Traffic queues were
> nightmares - for example I remember once being stuck on the M25 and
> having to pull over. I was not alone. Nobody cared.
>
I started with a log book, and have used all the types of tacho except
the very new ones that the eciloP can download as they drive past you.
They don't stop you and have words, either, they just send the fines
through the post.

> I got the impression that the tacho only really mattered when something
> went wrong. Then you would be hauled over the coals - so best not to
> chance it.
>
That has worked both ways for me. It has got me out of trouble as often
as dropping me in it.

>> The joy of driving used to be the fact that once out of the yard you
>> were your own boss. The real boss in the yard didn't care how you got
>> the job done as long as you did, and if ever there was a tacho card
>> records inspection, the inspector was bribable.
>
> I was glad I left when I did. My nearest near misses were down to the
> truck miss-sensing where it was in 'adaptive cruise control'[1] and
> nearly taking off the rear end of a vehicle. Another was in the
> 'automatic lane sensing'[2] where the horrendous alarm that repeatedly
> went off when I had to straddle a line through roadworks was
> 'incompatible with continuing to drive safely'!
>
> Chris
> [1][2] Both were habitually disabled on entry to a cab thereafter.
>
>
I also disable all the "smart" auto stuff as soon as I can and always
have. I had one job where the boss kept setting the phone to auto answer
and got really miffed when I turned it off. if I'm too busy to push the
button, I'm too busy to talk, even if he'd said anything worth listening
to. He's apparently still as obnoxious 20 years later.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sun, 2 Apr 2023 12:06:04 +0100, Tone <tone@email.com> wrote:
>
> I just couldn't drive lorries now, with all the control they have over
> you on the road, cabcams, incab phones, tracking. I'd hate it.
>
> The joy of driving used to be the fact that once out of the yard you
> were your own boss. The real boss in the yard didn't care how you got
> the job done as long as you did, and if ever there was a tacho card
> records inspection, the inspector was bribable.
>
> Much better days.

Welcome to the surveillance society where we spy on employees
for quality an training. When are we going to start surveilling the
executives?

--
"I have a problem with the fact that they (Microsoft) just make
really third rate products." - Steve Jobs 1995 TV interview