Am 12.08.2021 um 19:50 schrieb Mark Carver:
> On 12/08/2021 18:37, Woody wrote:
>> Given that the aerial work at Emley is almost finished (the candle is
>> back in place) my money says a temporary mast, say 300ft, which would
>> establish at a guess about 80% coverage including all relays, then
>> take the 1050ft temp lattice mast down at Emley and build it as a
>> permanent replacement at Bilsdale?
>>
> Would that mast be 'man' enough to host all of the other (non
> broadcast)  amount of clutter that Bilsdale has  ?
>
> I agree though, it might be the best starting point, even if it's a temp
> measure.

Do we actually know the extent of the damage? So far what I have read is
mainly based on speculation or poor reporting by journos who don't seem
to have a clue.

On 12/08/2021 18:53, Eddie King wrote:
> Am 12.08.2021 um 19:50 schrieb Mark Carver:
>> On 12/08/2021 18:37, Woody wrote:
>>> Given that the aerial work at Emley is almost finished (the candle
>>> is back in place) my money says a temporary mast, say 300ft, which
>>> would establish at a guess about 80% coverage including all relays,
>>> then take the 1050ft temp lattice mast down at Emley and build it as
>>> a permanent replacement at Bilsdale?
>>>
>> Would that mast be 'man' enough to host all of the other (non
>> broadcast)  amount of clutter that Bilsdale has  ?
>>
>> I agree though, it might be the best starting point, even if it's a
>> temp measure.
>
> Do we actually know the extent of the damage? So far what I have read
> is mainly based on speculation or poor reporting by journos who don't
> seem to have a clue.

Only really that a fire started about 50 metres up, not sure whether it
was inside or outside the mast, and it spread downwards to the ground
(probably due to falling debris) and smoke vented upwards all the way to
the top.

On 12/08/2021 18:37, Woody wrote:
> Given that the aerial work at Emley is almost finished (the candle is
> back in place) my money says a temporary mast, say 300ft, which would
> establish at a guess about 80% coverage including all relays, then take
> the 1050ft temp lattice mast down at Emley and build it as a permanent
> replacement at Bilsdale?

What temporary mast do they have as part of their resilience against
disaster. I think they are contracted to have a certain amount of
resilience so can't them removing any resilience to use in service.

I am sure other broadcasters also have temporary masts so they can hire
or buy one from another broadcaster.

On Thu 12/08/2021 19:31, MB wrote:
> On 12/08/2021 18:37, Woody wrote:
>> Given that the aerial work at Emley is almost finished (the candle is
>> back in place) my money says a temporary mast, say 300ft, which would
>> establish at a guess about 80% coverage including all relays, then take
>> the 1050ft temp lattice mast down at Emley and build it as a permanent
>> replacement at Bilsdale?
>
> What temporary mast do they have as part of their resilience against
> disaster.  I think they are contracted to have a certain amount of
> resilience so can't them removing any resilience to use in service.
>
> I am sure other broadcasters also have temporary masts so they can hire
> or buy one from another broadcaster.

What other broadcasters are there now that Arqiva run the whole show?

Do they still have the 650ft mast that they bought from the Swedish Air
Force when Emley collapsed?

In message <sf3s7l$bod$1@dont-email.me>, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
writes
>On Thu 12/08/2021 19:31, MB wrote:
>> On 12/08/2021 18:37, Woody wrote:
>>> Given that the aerial work at Emley is almost finished (the candle is
>>> back in place) my money says a temporary mast, say 300ft, which would
>>> establish at a guess about 80% coverage including all relays, then take
>>> the 1050ft temp lattice mast down at Emley and build it as a permanent
>>> replacement at Bilsdale?
>> What temporary mast do they have as part of their resilience against
>>disaster.  I think they are contracted to have a certain amount of
>>resilience so can't them removing any resilience to use in service.
>> I am sure other broadcasters also have temporary masts so they can
>>hire or buy one from another broadcaster.
>
>What other broadcasters are there now that Arqiva run the whole show?
>
>Do they still have the 650ft mast that they bought from the Swedish Air
>Force when Emley collapsed?

This might have been useful as a temporary mast. Unfortunately, they've
just demolished it.
<https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/ruv-longwave-radio-masts-demolished>

--
Ian

On 12/08/2021 20:19, Woody wrote:
> Do they still have the 650ft mast that they bought from the Swedish Air
> Force when Emley collapsed?

There are other organisations with masts in the UK but also there will
be plenty around Europe.

They will have done lots of planning for various forms of failure
because it will be specified in the contract.

In article <sf3m93$v7b$1@dont-email.me>, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
scribeth thus
>Given that the aerial work at Emley is almost finished (the candle is
>back in place) my money says a temporary mast, say 300ft, which would
>establish at a guess about 80% coverage including all relays, then take
>the 1050ft temp lattice mast down at Emley and build it as a permanent
>replacement at Bilsdale?
>

Didn't Peaker Pattision flog it off to someone?..

Thats assuming that Bilsdale is to collapse, its still standing and I
bet some structural engineers are writing reports right now!.

Suppose if the steel is suspect the old girl could have a Girdle wrapped
round her for a hundred feet or so;?...

Do those structures rely on the curved outside sections only?, or is
there further load carrying steelworks inside can't remember now suspect
there may be ...
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:14:27 +0100, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:

> I'd expect a journalist who is given that story to write would question
> "is this likely or is there some hype in this press release?".

I can tell you that no journalist I've ever worked with would have the
first f'ing clue about any of this, wouldn't ask anybody who did, and
would just regurgitate said press release in a slightly different form.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 18:25:23 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> wrote:

>>Does the second picture, of smoke issuing from the top of the mast,
>>necessarily mean that the mast and its cables are on fire? Could it be that
>>the hollow mast is acting as a chimney, venting smoke from the transmitter
>>building below?
>
> Very much so, be a real sod cleaning that lot out!....

Sounds like a job for Trinny and Susannah. I'm sure they'd have a 'hack'
to get it done for ú2.50 inside an hour.

On 13/08/2021 00:02, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:

> Sounds like a job for Trinny and Susannah. I'm sure they'd have a 'hack'
> to get it done for ú2.50 inside an hour.
>

What are you doing watching stuff like that?

Bill

On 12/08/2021 20:38, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <sf3s7l$bod$1@dont-email.me>, Woody
> <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> writes
>>
>> What other broadcasters are there now that Arqiva run the whole show?
>>
>> Do they still have the 650ft mast that they bought from the Swedish
>> Air Force when Emley collapsed?
>
> This might have been useful as a temporary mast. Unfortunately,
> they've just demolished it.
> <https://www.ruv.is/frett/2021/08/12/ruv-longwave-radio-masts-demolished>
>
Temporary masts are all very good, but they still require ground works,
and it seems the land around Bilsdale is of special scientific interest,
so that adds (another) layer of extra complexity ?

https://www.arqiva.com/news-views/news/update-on-incident-at-bilsdale-mast

On 12/08/2021 23:23, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
> I can tell you that no journalist I've ever worked with would have the
> first f'ing clue about any of this, wouldn't ask anybody who did, and
> would just regurgitate said press release in a slightly different form.

This was obvious watching the COVID press conferences from Downing
Street. None of the journalists had any medical qualifications and all
they wanted was to catch out a politician or a government spokesman.

On 12/08/2021 23:23, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:14:27 +0100, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I'd expect a journalist who is given that story to write would question
>> "is this likely or is there some hype in this press release?".
> I can tell you that no journalist I've ever worked with would have the
> first f'ing clue about any of this, wouldn't ask anybody who did, and
> would just regurgitate said press release in a slightly different form.
As Mark Twain said:-

"If you don’t read the newspaper you are uninformed; if you do read the
newspaper you are misinformed."

On 11/08/2021 19:35, NY wrote:

> BTW, which bozo chose to omit the U from Arqiva. Why can't companies use
> real names, rather than made-up computer-generated ones? I wasn't sure
> till the reporter said the name whether it was pronounced ark-ee-ver,
> ark-eye-ver, arkw-ee-ver, arkw-eye-ver, ark-ivver or ark-wivver. For the
> record, he pronounced it ark-ee-ver.
Because it makes it trade markable?

Latest.

80m temporary mast to be installed near Bilsdale . Estimated completion
around 2 weeks.

https://www.arqiva.com/news-views/news/update-on-incident-at-bilsdale-mast

Mark Carver wrote:

> https://www.arqiva.com/news-views/news/update-on-incident-at-bilsdale-mast

"we have been unable to even access the existing mast to assess its
condition"

You'd have though they'd have been allowed to fly a drone to get a quick
look at it?

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Mark Carver wrote:
>
>> https://www.arqiva.com/news-views/news/update-on-incident-at-bilsdale-mast
>
> "we have been unable to even access the existing mast to assess its
> condition"
>
> You'd have though they'd have been allowed to fly a drone to get a quick
> look at it?
>
>

Presumably you can’t fly a drone inside the tower? That’s where you’d need
to look.

Tweed wrote:

> Presumably you can’t fly a drone inside the tower? That’s where you’d need
> to look.

I'd have thought you could get some clues from outside, how much of the
length is burnt? does it include sections near the stay attachments, etc?

"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:innsraFs1lfU2@mid.individual.net...
> Tweed wrote:
>
>> Presumably you can’t fly a drone inside the tower? That’s where you’d
>> need
>> to look.
>
> I'd have thought you could get some clues from outside, how much of the
> length is burnt? does it include sections near the stay attachments, etc?

Presumably there is some sort of delay getting an engineer to assess whether
the mast is structurally sound, so that (if he says it's safe) other
engineers can then look at the inside of the mast to decide how to proceed.
I was expecting by now there would have been a preliminary report into the
safety of the mast.

I wonder what the coverage of an 80 metre mast will be and how many places
that could get a signal from the 315 m mast will be in shadows of a much
lower mast. Presumably for the same transmitter power and aerial gain,
height doesn't significantly affect range of coverage as long as there is
still line of sight.

But it's a very great improvement over nothing at all, despite any
limitations. Let's hope if nothing else it gives coverage to people who
don't have any alternative way of watching TV such as satellite (no dish and
satellite-enabled TV) or iPlayer etc (very poor internet connections).

It's a shame that news stories in online newspapers and BBC/ITV news sites
aren't (as far as I know) linking to this Arqiva report which (at last) is
giving some more concrete information.

As regards preventing another "Bilsdale" in the future, someone on uk.d-i-y
is suggesting a fire-triggered device which pumps intumescent foam into the
waveguide to prevent fire in the building spreading up the "chimney" of the
mast. I wonder how easy it would be to devise a similar mechanism for
air-dielectric coax cable if that is used instead of a waveguide.

On 13/08/2021 20:20, NY wrote:
> It's a shame that news stories in online newspapers and BBC/ITV news sites
> aren't (as far as I know) linking to this Arqiva report which (at last) is
> giving some more concrete information.

I doubt whether it is public.

On Fri 13/08/2021 20:25, MB wrote:
> On 13/08/2021 20:20, NY wrote:
>> It's a shame that news stories in online newspapers and BBC/ITV news
>> sites
>> aren't (as far as I know) linking to this Arqiva report which (at
>> last) is
>> giving some more concrete information.
>
> I doubt whether it is public.
>

As NY will have noticed I'm sure, BBC Yorkshire have so far steadfastly
avoided mention of Bilsdale as they don't use it!

On 13/08/2021 20:20, NY wrote:
> As regards preventing another "Bilsdale" in the future, someone on
> uk.d-i-y is suggesting a fire-triggered device which pumps intumescent
> foam into the waveguide to prevent fire in the building spreading up the
> "chimney" of the mast.

The whole point of intumescent materials is that they foam and force
themselves into gaps as the result of the fire, so don't need to be
pumped. In fact, when used with PVC pipes, I think the reaction to a
fire can exert enough pressure to collapse the bore on the fire softened
pipe, so the pipe is blocked without any material being injected inside
the pipe.

On 13/08/2021 22:22, Woody wrote:
> On Fri 13/08/2021 20:25, MB wrote:
>> On 13/08/2021 20:20, NY wrote:
>>> It's a shame that news stories in online newspapers and BBC/ITV news
>>> sites
>>> aren't (as far as I know) linking to this Arqiva report which (at
>>> last) is
>>> giving some more concrete information.
>>
>> I doubt whether it is public.
>>
>
>
> As NY will have noticed I'm sure, BBC Yorkshire have so far steadfastly
> avoided mention of Bilsdale as they don't use it!

It's stupid because so many people will be watching BBC Leeds temporarily.

Bill

In message <inoernF1382U1@mid.individual.net>, williamwright
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> writes
>On 13/08/2021 22:22, Woody wrote:
>> On Fri 13/08/2021 20:25, MB wrote:
>>> On 13/08/2021 20:20, NY wrote:
>>>> It's a shame that news stories in online newspapers and BBC/ITV
>>>>news sites
>>>> aren't (as far as I know) linking to this Arqiva report which (at
>>>>last) is
>>>> giving some more concrete information.
>>>
>>> I doubt whether it is public.
>>>
>> As NY will have noticed I'm sure, BBC Yorkshire have so far
>>steadfastly avoided mention of Bilsdale as they don't use it!
>
>It's stupid because so many people will be watching BBC Leeds temporarily.
>
BBC1 Look North news have steadfastly avoided any mention of the effects
of the disruption on ITV and other non-BBC channels.
--
Ian

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 03:23:03 +0100, williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com>
wrote:

>> Sounds like a job for Trinny and Susannah. I'm sure they'd have a 'hack'
>> to get it done for ú2.50 inside an hour.
>
> What are you doing watching stuff like that?

I don't. I'm just aware of it, as you also seem to be.
Unless you do actually watch stuff like that?

I call those two women on the Repair Shop T & S.
I know, it must be lockdown or something.