Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:23:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The net is tightening, not just on P&O, but on the wider ferry industry
>> that Turner and his father have railed against for decades.
>
> On the Cross Channel route the eventual winners might turn out to be
> Eurotunnel. A quick google suggests they currently have about 70% of
> car traffic and 40% of freight. Of course the longer journey times of
> the ferry give the freight drivers a break, interesting to see how
> this plays out!
>

Of course, not all freight is allowed through the Chunnel, and Eurotunnel
is limited to a single route. The slower ferries offer much more
flexibility.

The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
drivers to accompany their loads across the water.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:23:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The net is tightening, not just on P&O, but on the wider ferry industry
>>> that Turner and his father have railed against for decades.
>>
>> On the Cross Channel route the eventual winners might turn out to be
>> Eurotunnel. A quick google suggests they currently have about 70% of
>> car traffic and 40% of freight. Of course the longer journey times of
>> the ferry give the freight drivers a break, interesting to see how
>> this plays out!
>>
>
> Of course, not all freight is allowed through the Chunnel, and Eurotunnel
> is limited to a single route. The slower ferries offer much more
> flexibility.
>
> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>
>

Up until this event P&O pricing was based on their former wage rates. They
could still compete with the tunnel. Their problem was the appearance of
the low waged Irish Ferries on the route.

I’m surprised about the bit in the Telegraph article about other ferry
route operators looking on nervously and possibly going bust. Most ferry
traffic has little alternative and will have to pay whatever is asked in
fares.

Paying sub minimum wages also has an impact on the coastal communities. The
ferry operations put money into areas that otherwise offer little in
employment opportunities.

On 29/03/2022 01:24, Recliner wrote:
> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.

That already happens on many ferry routes but I suspect some companies
might prefer having the load in their vehicle with their driver from end
to end.

On 29/03/2022 00:23, Recliner wrote:
[snip]
>
> Condor Ferries, which runs services between the UK and the Channel Islands,
> was repeatedly criticised by union leaders for refusing to pay the minimum
> wage when owned by Australian investor Macquarie. Another is CLdN
> Cobelfret, which specialises in freight roll-on-roll-off services.
>

These discussions have all been about ferry routes. However, mst
people's view of what a ferry route is one that they can travel on - a
"passenger ferry" route. What is less known is that the "freight ferry"
industry carries probably more than the passenger routes. Recliner
mentions Cobelfret which is, I believe, the largest ferry operation
serving the UK/Continent route, even though they do not carry
passengers. Ramifications of this Shapps proposal hark back to dangerous
dogs legislation which was brought in a rush, but proved to be flawed as
originally legislated.

I hope that there will be sufficient reflection on ALL the effects on
Shapps' proposals otherwise we will all be paying significantly more for
everything that we buy that is wholly or partly supplied from Europe.

Is a tanker supplying specialist fuel oil from a Rotterdam refinery on a
regular basis going to be classed as a ferry service? Where does the
line get drawn?

--
Colin

On Tue, 29 Mar 2022 05:59:06 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:23:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The net is tightening, not just on P&O, but on the wider ferry industry
>>>> that Turner and his father have railed against for decades.
>>>
>>> On the Cross Channel route the eventual winners might turn out to be
>>> Eurotunnel. A quick google suggests they currently have about 70% of
>>> car traffic and 40% of freight. Of course the longer journey times of
>>> the ferry give the freight drivers a break, interesting to see how
>>> this plays out!
>>>
>>
>> Of course, not all freight is allowed through the Chunnel, and Eurotunnel
>> is limited to a single route. The slower ferries offer much more
>> flexibility.
>>
>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>
>>
>
>Up until this event P&O pricing was based on their former wage rates. They
>could still compete with the tunnel. Their problem was the appearance of
>the low waged Irish Ferries on the route.
>
>I’m surprised about the bit in the Telegraph article about other ferry
>route operators looking on nervously and possibly going bust. Most ferry
>traffic has little alternative and will have to pay whatever is asked in
>fares.
>
>Paying sub minimum wages also has an impact on the coastal communities. The
>ferry operations put money into areas that otherwise offer little in
>employment opportunities.

I wonder how protectionist EU countries handle this? For example, do ferries from Ireland to France pay decent local
rates, or do they use cut-price agency staff? My guess is that pay rates on such routes are probably protected, and
those EU countries would probably be happy to extend their scheme to the UK.

In message <t1ulp1$vab$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:31 on Tue, 29 Mar
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/03/2022 00:23, Recliner wrote:
>[snip]
>> Condor Ferries, which runs services between the UK and the Channel
>>Islands,
>> was repeatedly criticised by union leaders for refusing to pay the minimum
>> wage when owned by Australian investor Macquarie. Another is CLdN
>> Cobelfret, which specialises in freight roll-on-roll-off services.
>>
>
>These discussions have all been about ferry routes. However, mst
>people's view of what a ferry route is one that they can travel on - a
>"passenger ferry" route. What is less known is that the "freight ferry"
>industry carries probably more than the passenger routes. Recliner
>mentions Cobelfret which is, I believe, the largest ferry operation
>serving the UK/Continent route, even though they do not carry
>passengers. Ramifications of this Shapps proposal hark back to
>dangerous dogs legislation which was brought in a rush, but proved to
>be flawed as originally legislated.
>
>I hope that there will be sufficient reflection on ALL the effects on
>Shapps' proposals

Time to get the Opposition Lords on the case, that's where the best
scrutiny of matters like this comes from.

>otherwise we will all be paying significantly more for everything that
>we buy that is wholly or partly supplied from Europe.
>
>Is a tanker supplying specialist fuel oil from a Rotterdam refinery on
>a regular basis going to be classed as a ferry service? Where does the
>line get drawn?
>

--
Roland Perry

Hull Local Democracy Reporter: We sailed on the first P&O ferry from Hull following the mass crew sackings and this is
what we discovered

<https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/sailed-first-po-ferry-hull-6873539>

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:23:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The net is tightening, not just on P&O, but on the wider ferry industry
>>> that Turner and his father have railed against for decades.
>>
>> On the Cross Channel route the eventual winners might turn out to be
>> Eurotunnel. A quick google suggests they currently have about 70% of
>> car traffic and 40% of freight. Of course the longer journey times of
>> the ferry give the freight drivers a break, interesting to see how
>> this plays out!
>>
>
> Of course, not all freight is allowed through the Chunnel, and Eurotunnel
> is limited to a single route. The slower ferries offer much more
> flexibility.
>
> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>
>

The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:23:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The net is tightening, not just on P&O, but on the wider ferry industry
>>>> that Turner and his father have railed against for decades.
>>>
>>> On the Cross Channel route the eventual winners might turn out to be
>>> Eurotunnel. A quick google suggests they currently have about 70% of
>>> car traffic and 40% of freight. Of course the longer journey times of
>>> the ferry give the freight drivers a break, interesting to see how
>>> this plays out!
>>>
>>
>> Of course, not all freight is allowed through the Chunnel, and Eurotunnel
>> is limited to a single route. The slower ferries offer much more
>> flexibility.
>>
>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>
>>
>
> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Yes, very difficult. On ferries the system is to back a trailer into
position, drop and secure the trailer, take the tug away and back the
next trailer, repeat. This presupposes that there is a lane available to
allow the tug to move away and the next trailer to arrive. A train does
not have that width so trailers would need to be backed a considerable
distance, dropped and secured and the tug allowed to drive out to allow
the next trailer to back all the way up. Feasible, but time consuming.
On a ferry you can have a line of tug/trailers waiting to move to
position as soon as the previous tug is out of the way.

--
Colin

Am 29.03.2022 um 16:11 schrieb ColinR:
> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>
>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and
>> back,
>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>
> Yes, very difficult. On ferries the system is to back a trailer into
> position, drop and secure the trailer, take the tug away and back the
> next trailer, repeat. This presupposes that there is a lane available to
> allow the tug to move away and the next trailer to arrive. A train does
> not have that width so trailers would need to be backed a considerable
> distance, dropped and secured and the tug allowed to drive out to allow
> the next trailer to back all the way up. Feasible, but time consuming.
> On a ferry you can have a line of tug/trailers waiting to move to
> position as soon as the previous tug is out of the way.
>
There are already freight trains in central Europe with special cars to
carry trailers unattached to lorries. I guess they are typically loaded
and unloaded by crane.

<https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bahn%20sttelschlepper%20Umschlag&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https://www.zukunft-mobilitaet.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/isu_verladung_auflieger.jpg&t=ffab>

Loading/unloading terminals like this would scale a lot easier than the
existing Eurotunnel freight terminal, the intermodal trains could go
from UK directly to various places in Europe.

Rolf

On 29/03/2022 18:19, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 29.03.2022 um 16:11 schrieb ColinR:
>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>
>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their
>>> own
>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and
>>> back,
>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>
>> Yes, very difficult. On ferries the system is to back a trailer into
>> position, drop and secure the trailer, take the tug away and back the
>> next trailer, repeat. This presupposes that there is a lane available
>> to allow the tug to move away and the next trailer to arrive. A train
>> does not have that width so trailers would need to be backed a
>> considerable distance, dropped and secured and the tug allowed to
>> drive out to allow the next trailer to back all the way up. Feasible,
>> but time consuming. On a ferry you can have a line of tug/trailers
>> waiting to move to position as soon as the previous tug is out of the
>> way.
>>
> There are already freight trains in central Europe with special cars to
> carry trailers unattached to lorries.  I guess they are typically loaded
> and unloaded by crane.
>
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bahn%20sttelschlepper%20Umschlag&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https://www.zukunft-mobilitaet.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/isu_verladung_auflieger.jpg&t=ffab>
>
>
> Loading/unloading terminals like this would scale a lot easier than the
> existing Eurotunnel freight terminal, the intermodal trains could go
> from UK directly to various places in Europe.
>
Rolf, well aware of that and container trains are common in the UK. My
point was that Eurotunnel is not the place for transfer from lorry to
train (including the trailer but not the tractor unit). Far better to
load containers onto flatbed rail wagons elsewhere and take already
loaded trains through the tunnel.

--
Colin

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> Am 29.03.2022 um 16:11 schrieb ColinR:
>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>
>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and
>>> back,
>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>
>> Yes, very difficult. On ferries the system is to back a trailer into
>> position, drop and secure the trailer, take the tug away and back the
>> next trailer, repeat. This presupposes that there is a lane available to
>> allow the tug to move away and the next trailer to arrive. A train does
>> not have that width so trailers would need to be backed a considerable
>> distance, dropped and secured and the tug allowed to drive out to allow
>> the next trailer to back all the way up. Feasible, but time consuming.
>> On a ferry you can have a line of tug/trailers waiting to move to
>> position as soon as the previous tug is out of the way.
>>
> There are already freight trains in central Europe with special cars to
> carry trailers unattached to lorries. I guess they are typically loaded
> and unloaded by crane.
>
> <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bahn%20sttelschlepper%20Umschlag&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https://www.zukunft-mobilitaet.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/isu_verladung_auflieger.jpg&t=ffab>
>
> Loading/unloading terminals like this would scale a lot easier than the
> existing Eurotunnel freight terminal, the intermodal trains could go
> from UK directly to various places in Europe.

The US has long had piggyback trains where the road trailers are loaded
onto wagons. They can be loaded and unloaded using cranes, e.g.
<https://youtu.be/X-xlFB3GrTE>, but I’ve also seen a video, possibly
European, of a system where there is a platform at the wagon bed height and
a tractor unit loads and unloads the trailers.

There have also been - maybe still are - roadrailers, road trailers with
integrated rail wheels or attachments for rail wheels, and some crossings
of the Alps use rail wagons that can take complete lorries, articulated or
otherwise.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/03/2022 00:23, Recliner wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> Condor Ferries, which runs services between the UK and the Channel Islands,
>> was repeatedly criticised by union leaders for refusing to pay the minimum
>> wage when owned by Australian investor Macquarie. Another is CLdN
>> Cobelfret, which specialises in freight roll-on-roll-off services.
>>
>
> These discussions have all been about ferry routes. However, mst
> people's view of what a ferry route is one that they can travel on - a
> "passenger ferry" route. What is less known is that the "freight ferry"
> industry carries probably more than the passenger routes. Recliner
> mentions Cobelfret which is, I believe, the largest ferry operation
> serving the UK/Continent route, even though they do not carry
> passengers. Ramifications of this Shapps proposal hark back to dangerous
> dogs legislation which was brought in a rush, but proved to be flawed as
> originally legislated.
>
> I hope that there will be sufficient reflection on ALL the effects on
> Shapps' proposals otherwise we will all be paying significantly more for
> everything that we buy that is wholly or partly supplied from Europe.
>
> Is a tanker supplying specialist fuel oil from a Rotterdam refinery on a
> regular basis going to be classed as a ferry service? Where does the
> line get drawn?
>

And Shapps is now discovering what we already knew here:

<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/30/po-ferries-accuses-ministers-interfering-safety-checks-left>

In message <t232b8$ajb$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:06:32 on Thu, 31 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/03/2022 00:23, Recliner wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Condor Ferries, which runs services between the UK and the Channel Islands,
>>> was repeatedly criticised by union leaders for refusing to pay the minimum
>>> wage when owned by Australian investor Macquarie. Another is CLdN
>>> Cobelfret, which specialises in freight roll-on-roll-off services.
>>>
>>
>> These discussions have all been about ferry routes. However, mst
>> people's view of what a ferry route is one that they can travel on - a
>> "passenger ferry" route. What is less known is that the "freight ferry"
>> industry carries probably more than the passenger routes. Recliner
>> mentions Cobelfret which is, I believe, the largest ferry operation
>> serving the UK/Continent route, even though they do not carry
>> passengers. Ramifications of this Shapps proposal hark back to dangerous
>> dogs legislation which was brought in a rush, but proved to be flawed as
>> originally legislated.
>>
>> I hope that there will be sufficient reflection on ALL the effects on
>> Shapps' proposals otherwise we will all be paying significantly more for
>> everything that we buy that is wholly or partly supplied from Europe.
>>
>> Is a tanker supplying specialist fuel oil from a Rotterdam refinery on a
>> regular basis going to be classed as a ferry service? Where does the
>> line get drawn?
>
>And Shapps is now discovering what we already knew here:
>
><https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/30/po-ferries-accuses-mini
>sters-interfering-safety-checks-left>

And another thing we already knew - that "taking back control" is
sometimes difficult when you've broken off one of your most useful
control levers.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t232b8$ajb$1@dont-email.me>, at 02:06:32 on Thu, 31 Mar
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 29/03/2022 00:23, Recliner wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> Condor Ferries, which runs services between the UK and the Channel Islands,
>>>> was repeatedly criticised by union leaders for refusing to pay the minimum
>>>> wage when owned by Australian investor Macquarie. Another is CLdN
>>>> Cobelfret, which specialises in freight roll-on-roll-off services.
>>>>
>>>
>>> These discussions have all been about ferry routes. However, mst
>>> people's view of what a ferry route is one that they can travel on - a
>>> "passenger ferry" route. What is less known is that the "freight ferry"
>>> industry carries probably more than the passenger routes. Recliner
>>> mentions Cobelfret which is, I believe, the largest ferry operation
>>> serving the UK/Continent route, even though they do not carry
>>> passengers. Ramifications of this Shapps proposal hark back to dangerous
>>> dogs legislation which was brought in a rush, but proved to be flawed as
>>> originally legislated.
>>>
>>> I hope that there will be sufficient reflection on ALL the effects on
>>> Shapps' proposals otherwise we will all be paying significantly more for
>>> everything that we buy that is wholly or partly supplied from Europe.
>>>
>>> Is a tanker supplying specialist fuel oil from a Rotterdam refinery on a
>>> regular basis going to be classed as a ferry service? Where does the
>>> line get drawn?
>>
>> And Shapps is now discovering what we already knew here:
>>
>> <https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/30/po-ferries-accuses-mini
>> sters-interfering-safety-checks-left>
>
> And another thing we already knew - that "taking back control" is
> sometimes difficult when you've broken off one of your most useful
> control levers.

Yup. It would be much easier for him to accomplish what he now wants to do
if the countries and territorial waters concerned were all in the EU.

On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>
>>
>
> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>
https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-the-uk/59932.article

"CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."

--
Arthur Figgis

In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>
>>>
>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>
>https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>he-uk/59932.article
>
>"CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."

Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
> remarked:
>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>
>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>> he-uk/59932.article
>>
>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>
> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".

It’s not obvious to me how you’d get the tractor off the shuttle wagon, as
it will be penned in by the trailer in front. You’d also need it to unload
the trailer, so there seems little point in not trying to send it through
the tunnel. Presumably trailers have to go equally in both directions over
time.

My guess is there’s no need to send an accompanying driver. Why would you?

Am 01.04.2022 um 08:59 schrieb Tweed:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>
>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>
>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>
>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>
> It’s not obvious to me how you’d get the tractor off the shuttle wagon, as
> it will be penned in by the trailer in front.

Looking at the standard busines model of CargoBeamer
<https://www.cargobeamer.de/was-wir-tun.html>
and at the timetable
<https://www.cargobeamer.de/files/theme/content/terminals_routen/Product_Sheet_Ashford-Calais-Perpignan.pdf>
they definitely have local staff to shunt their trailer around Calais to
the vairous ferries.
Whether they have a trick to load the trailers to the Chunnel without
tractor units it probably their business secret ;-)

In message <t26fnr$5h7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:13:31 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 01.04.2022 um 08:59 schrieb Tweed:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>
>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>
>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>
>>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>> It’s not obvious to me how you’d get the tractor off the shuttle
>>wagon, as
>> it will be penned in by the trailer in front.
>
>Looking at the standard busines model of CargoBeamer
><https://www.cargobeamer.de/was-wir-tun.html>
>and at the timetable
><https://www.cargobeamer.de/files/theme/content/terminals_routen/Product
>_Sheet_Ashford-Calais-Perpignan.pdf>

>they definitely have local staff to shunt their trailer around Calais
>to the vairous ferries.

>Whether they have a trick to load the trailers to the Chunnel without
>tractor units it probably their business secret ;-)

Helicopters?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t267s2$8gu$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:59:14 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>
>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>
>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>
>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>
>It’s not obvious to me how you’d get the tractor off the shuttle wagon, as
>it will be penned in by the trailer in front. You’d also need it to unload
>the trailer, so there seems little point in not trying to send it through
>the tunnel. Presumably trailers have to go equally in both directions over
>time.
>
>My guess is there’s no need to send an accompanying driver. Why would you?

There might be emergency situations where an accompanying driver is
required; and what if the pick-up driver is delayed - he'll be blocking
all the trucks behind. Even normally, he'll have to navigate the
arrivals part of the terminal "contraflow" and jump aboard promptly to
walk to wherever it's parked along the train to get in the driving seat.

Would he be allowed to do that while the trucks nearer the front of the
train were driving out?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t267s2$8gu$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:59:14 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>
>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>
>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>
>>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>
>> It’s not obvious to me how you’d get the tractor off the shuttle wagon, as
>> it will be penned in by the trailer in front. You’d also need it to unload
>> the trailer, so there seems little point in not trying to send it through
>> the tunnel. Presumably trailers have to go equally in both directions over
>> time.
>>
>> My guess is there’s no need to send an accompanying driver. Why would you?
>
> There might be emergency situations where an accompanying driver is
> required; and what if the pick-up driver is delayed - he'll be blocking
> all the trucks behind. Even normally, he'll have to navigate the
> arrivals part of the terminal "contraflow" and jump aboard promptly to
> walk to wherever it's parked along the train to get in the driving seat.
>
> Would he be allowed to do that while the trucks nearer the front of the
> train were driving out?

Wouldn't there be a local team of drivers in each terminal to move the
trailers off the train, just as local drivers move the cars on and off car
transporter ships?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
> remarked:
>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>
>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>> he-uk/59932.article
>>
>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>
> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>

Yes the tractor unit would have to go through, I doubt the driver would go
with it, and yes there might be unbalanced movements, which I guess could
also go by passenger shuttle if necessary?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
> remarked:
>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their
>>> own
>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and
>>> back,
>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>
>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>> he-uk/59932.article
>>
>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>
> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".

The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to the
train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair amnount of
parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers would not
necessarily match the train times.

--
Colin

Am 01.04.2022 um 12:23 schrieb ColinR:
> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of
>>>> their own
>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and
>>>> back,
>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>
>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>
>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>
>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no
>> balancing return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>
> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to the
> train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair amnount of
> parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers would not
> necessarily match the train times.

The French/Spanish driver drops of the tailer in Perpignan, the trailers
are unloaded in Calais. Then a local French shunter brings the
trailers from CargoBeamer to the chunnel train (or to one of several
Calais ferry terminals). Then a British shunter brings the trailers
from the Chunnel to a car park in Asford.
In Ashford, a British driver picks up the trailer.

On the train/Ferry route it's well known that the shunting tractors stay
in Calais, on the Chunnel train route we are speculating how it's done.

From 2023 onwards, a drop-off by an Italian driver in Domodossola will
also be possible.

Rolf