In message <t26jqt$plq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:31 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>remarked:
>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of
>>>>their own
>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais
>>>>and back,
>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>
>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>
>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does
>>there have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no
>>balancing return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>
>The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
>French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
>driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
>terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to
>the train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair amnount
>of parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers would not
>necessarily match the train times.

Do they have special trains dedicated to this, rather than mixing them
in with regular HGVs? If you have to tow one trailer out, then go back
in through the exit door and tow the next one out (etc) it would take
ages to unload.

The more think about it, how would you load it? Drive in through the
rear door, all the way to the front, unhitch and return to the rear for
the next trailer. Pull that all the way to the front, unhitch and ...
err ... there's the first trailer blocking the way out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8r0kjJvvIY
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t267s2$8gu$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:59:14 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>
>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>
>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>
>>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>
>> It’s not obvious to me how you’d get the tractor off the shuttle wagon, as
>> it will be penned in by the trailer in front. You’d also need it to unload
>> the trailer, so there seems little point in not trying to send it through
>> the tunnel. Presumably trailers have to go equally in both directions over
>> time.
>>
>> My guess is there’s no need to send an accompanying driver. Why would you?
>
> There might be emergency situations where an accompanying driver is
> required; and what if the pick-up driver is delayed - he'll be blocking
> all the trucks behind. Even normally, he'll have to navigate the
> arrivals part of the terminal "contraflow" and jump aboard promptly to
> walk to wherever it's parked along the train to get in the driving seat.
>
> Would he be allowed to do that while the trucks nearer the front of the
> train were driving out?

The freight shuttle has a passenger carriage at the front where all the
drivers travel, they don't stay in their cabs. So at some point they all
have to walk to/from their truck.

At some point I'm sure that the companies involved will have considered the
risk of having no driver to unload, and put mitigations in place; perhaps
not loading the truck until you know the other driver is ready, or loading
them only as the rear few trucks on the train. (Assuming a normal train
with a few unaccompanied trailers; if it's a train composed solely of
unaccompanied trailers then it's somewhat easier, though possibly at the
expense of having a platform blocked)

The only real 'difficulty' I can think of is getting the non-travelling
drivers to/from the train, in what's usually a staff-only area; but I'm
sure this is easily overcome, perhaps by having them accompany the
Eurotunnel staff to the platform. Again this varies depending whether it's
one unaccompanied truck or a whole train-full; in the latter scenario maybe
a minibus or coach, or just accompanied walk to the platform?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their
>>>> own
>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and
>>>> back,
>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>
>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>
>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>
>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>
> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK.
>

That's not achievable without a huge redesign of the trains, or reversing
the trucks onto the train; and if it's a train loaded only with these, then
that's half the length of the train!

> The
> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to the
> train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair amnount of
> parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers would not
> necessarily match the train times.
>

That's a good point; the terminals are currently set up for through flow of
vehicles only. Either some construction work would be needed for the
interchange areas, or perhaps the ferry tractor units take the trailer
off-site, perhaps to nearby motorway services?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their
>>>> own
>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and
>>>> back,
>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>
>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>
>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>
>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>
> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to the
> train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair amnount of
> parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers would not
> necessarily match the train times.

The logistics must include small tractor units to move the trailers on and
off the train, along with the necessary drivers.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t267s2$8gu$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:59:14 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and back,
>>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>>
>>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>>
>>>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>>>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>>>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>>
>>> It’s not obvious to me how you’d get the tractor off the shuttle wagon, as
>>> it will be penned in by the trailer in front. You’d also need it to unload
>>> the trailer, so there seems little point in not trying to send it through
>>> the tunnel. Presumably trailers have to go equally in both directions over
>>> time.
>>>
>>> My guess is there’s no need to send an accompanying driver. Why would you?
>>
>> There might be emergency situations where an accompanying driver is
>> required; and what if the pick-up driver is delayed - he'll be blocking
>> all the trucks behind. Even normally, he'll have to navigate the
>> arrivals part of the terminal "contraflow" and jump aboard promptly to
>> walk to wherever it's parked along the train to get in the driving seat.
>>
>> Would he be allowed to do that while the trucks nearer the front of the
>> train were driving out?
>
> The freight shuttle has a passenger carriage at the front where all the
> drivers travel, they don't stay in their cabs. So at some point they all
> have to walk to/from their truck.

I think I read that the drivers get picked up by a minibus and taken to the
passenger carriage.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> The freight shuttle has a passenger carriage at the front where all the
>> drivers travel, they don't stay in their cabs. So at some point they all
>> have to walk to/from their truck.
>
> I think I read that the drivers get picked up by a minibus and taken to the
> passenger carriage.
>

Yes, Roland posted a rather good video showing the process.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <t26r90$j08$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:24 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t267s2$8gu$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:59:14 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their own
>>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais
>>>>>>and back,
>>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>>
>>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>>
>>>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>>>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>>>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>>
>>> It’s not obvious to me how you’d get the tractor off the shuttle
>>>wagon, as
>>> it will be penned in by the trailer in front. You’d also need it to unload
>>> the trailer, so there seems little point in not trying to send it through
>>> the tunnel. Presumably trailers have to go equally in both directions over
>>> time.
>>>
>>> My guess is there’s no need to send an accompanying driver. Why would you?
>>
>> There might be emergency situations where an accompanying driver is
>> required; and what if the pick-up driver is delayed - he'll be blocking
>> all the trucks behind. Even normally, he'll have to navigate the
>> arrivals part of the terminal "contraflow" and jump aboard promptly to
>> walk to wherever it's parked along the train to get in the driving seat.
>>
>> Would he be allowed to do that while the trucks nearer the front of the
>> train were driving out?
>
>The freight shuttle has a passenger carriage at the front where all the
>drivers travel, they don't stay in their cabs. So at some point they all
>have to walk to/from their truck.

But not past vehicles on the move, I hope.

>At some point I'm sure that the companies involved will have considered the
>risk of having no driver to unload, and put mitigations in place; perhaps
>not loading the truck until you know the other driver is ready, or loading
>them only as the rear few trucks on the train. (Assuming a normal train
>with a few unaccompanied trailers; if it's a train composed solely of
>unaccompanied trailers then it's somewhat easier, though possibly at the
>expense of having a platform blocked)
>
>The only real 'difficulty' I can think of is getting the non-travelling
>drivers to/from the train, in what's usually a staff-only area; but I'm
>sure this is easily overcome, perhaps by having them accompany the
>Eurotunnel staff to the platform. Again this varies depending whether it's
>one unaccompanied truck or a whole train-full; in the latter scenario maybe
>a minibus or coach, or just accompanied walk to the platform?

Does your scenario have the temporary tractors still attached?
--
Roland Perry

On 01/04/2022 13:33, Sam Wilson wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their
>>>>> own
>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and
>>>>> back,
>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>
>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>
>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>
>>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>
>> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
>> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
>> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
>> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to the
>> train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair amnount of
>> parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers would not
>> necessarily match the train times.
>
> The logistics must include small tractor units to move the trailers on and
> off the train, along with the necessary drivers.
>

As per this (sorry about the company name under present circumstances!)
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.920oxT-PakGgwzSnEfe4RAHaFj%26pid%3DApi&f=1

--
Colin

On 01/04/2022 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t26jqt$plq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:31 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at
>>>>>> least
>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of
>>>>> their  own
>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais
>>>>> and  back,
>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>
>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>>
>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>
>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>  Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does
>>> there  have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no
>>> balancing  return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>
>> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
>> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
>> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
>> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to
>> the train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair
>> amnount of parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers
>> would not necessarily match the train times.
>
> Do they have special trains dedicated to this, rather than mixing them
> in with regular HGVs? If you have to tow one trailer out, then go back
> in through the exit door and tow the next one out (etc) it would take
> ages to unload.
>
> The more think about it, how would you load it? Drive in through the
> rear door, all the way to the front, unhitch and return to the rear for
> the next trailer. Pull that all the way to the front, unhitch and ...
> err ... there's the first trailer blocking the way out.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8r0kjJvvIY

Sorry, but you have missed the point. I am not saying these trains
currently operate, I am answering a potential suggestion posed on 29th
at 0124 which says
"The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
drivers to accompany their loads across the water."

Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers and
new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented - probably
outwith the current Eurotunnel terminals at Calais and Folkestone.

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/04/2022 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t26jqt$plq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:31 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at
>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of
>>>>>> their  own
>>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais
>>>>>> and  back,
>>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>>>
>>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>>
>>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>>  Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does
>>>> there  have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no
>>>> balancing  return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>>
>>> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
>>> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
>>> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
>>> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to
>>> the train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair
>>> amnount of parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers
>>> would not necessarily match the train times.
>>
>> Do they have special trains dedicated to this, rather than mixing them
>> in with regular HGVs? If you have to tow one trailer out, then go back
>> in through the exit door and tow the next one out (etc) it would take
>> ages to unload.
>>
>> The more think about it, how would you load it? Drive in through the
>> rear door, all the way to the front, unhitch and return to the rear for
>> the next trailer. Pull that all the way to the front, unhitch and ...
>> err ... there's the first trailer blocking the way out.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8r0kjJvvIY
>
>
> Sorry, but you have missed the point. I am not saying these trains
> currently operate, I am answering a potential suggestion posed on 29th
> at 0124 which says
> "The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
> drivers to accompany their loads across the water."
>
> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers and
> new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented - probably
> outwith the current Eurotunnel terminals at Calais and Folkestone.
>

In which case they might as well run deeper in to either country and save
the drive to the coast, surely? But you'd lose the benefits of the existing
customs/etc infrastructure present at the terminals…

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 01/04/2022 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t26jqt$plq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:31 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at
>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of
>>>>>>> their  own
>>>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais
>>>>>>> and  back,
>>>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>>>>
>>>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>>>  Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does
>>>>> there  have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no
>>>>> balancing  return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>>>
>>>> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
>>>> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
>>>> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
>>>> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to
>>>> the train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair
>>>> amnount of parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers
>>>> would not necessarily match the train times.
>>>
>>> Do they have special trains dedicated to this, rather than mixing them
>>> in with regular HGVs? If you have to tow one trailer out, then go back
>>> in through the exit door and tow the next one out (etc) it would take
>>> ages to unload.
>>>
>>> The more think about it, how would you load it? Drive in through the
>>> rear door, all the way to the front, unhitch and return to the rear for
>>> the next trailer. Pull that all the way to the front, unhitch and ...
>>> err ... there's the first trailer blocking the way out.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8r0kjJvvIY
>>
>>
>> Sorry, but you have missed the point. I am not saying these trains
>> currently operate, I am answering a potential suggestion posed on 29th
>> at 0124 which says
>> "The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water."
>>
>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers and
>> new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented - probably
>> outwith the current Eurotunnel terminals at Calais and Folkestone.
>>
>
> In which case they might as well run deeper in to either country and save
> the drive to the coast, surely? But you'd lose the benefits of the existing
> customs/etc infrastructure present at the terminals…
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

Back to the original thread, it looks like the legal situation might be
worse for P&O than they had hoped. It would be interesting to know what
criminal breaches are being investigated.

“The Insolvency Service said: Following its inquiries, the Insolvency
Service has commenced formal criminal and civil investigations into the
circumstances surrounding the recent redundancies made by P&O Ferries. As
these are ongoing investigations, no further comment or information can be
provided at this time."

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 01/04/2022 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t26jqt$plq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:31 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at
>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of
>>>>>>> their  own
>>>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais
>>>>>>> and  back,
>>>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>>>>
>>>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>>>  Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does
>>>>> there  have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no
>>>>> balancing  return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>>>
>>>> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
>>>> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
>>>> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
>>>> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to
>>>> the train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair
>>>> amnount of parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers
>>>> would not necessarily match the train times.
>>>
>>> Do they have special trains dedicated to this, rather than mixing them
>>> in with regular HGVs? If you have to tow one trailer out, then go back
>>> in through the exit door and tow the next one out (etc) it would take
>>> ages to unload.
>>>
>>> The more think about it, how would you load it? Drive in through the
>>> rear door, all the way to the front, unhitch and return to the rear for
>>> the next trailer. Pull that all the way to the front, unhitch and ...
>>> err ... there's the first trailer blocking the way out.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8r0kjJvvIY
>>
>>
>> Sorry, but you have missed the point. I am not saying these trains
>> currently operate, I am answering a potential suggestion posed on 29th
>> at 0124 which says
>> "The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water."
>>
>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers and
>> new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented - probably
>> outwith the current Eurotunnel terminals at Calais and Folkestone.
>>
>
> In which case they might as well run deeper in to either country and save
> the drive to the coast, surely? But you'd lose the benefits of the existing
> customs/etc infrastructure present at the terminals…
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

Its quite interesting to see the Cargobeamer system in operation at the
terminals they have built.
I came across them while trying to find in vain an answer on how the
operation through the tunnel will work . This clip is of their Calais
terminal where the solution to loading and unloading the trailers
is to park them on special cradles alongside the train and slide them
sideways.

<https://youtu.be/3MkdqvXv2lw>

I wonder if enough traffic builds up whether their partner Getlink which is
one of the Eurotunnel companies will make a track and loading area
available for that operation.

Could such normal trucks on such wagons get much further into the UK than
Ashford or HS1 due to the smaller UK loading gauge?

GH

In message <t27a4c$5e8$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:44:02 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 01/04/2022 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t26jqt$plq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:31 on Fri, 1 Apr
>>2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis
>>>><afiggis@example.invalid> remarked:
>>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at
>>>>>>>least drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no
>>>>>>>reason for the drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of
>>>>>>trailers without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a
>>>>>>fleet of their  own shunting tractor units which just went from
>>>>>>Folkestone to Calais and  back, repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended->>>>>to-t
>>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>>
>>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>>>unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road
>>>>>transfer terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains
>>>>>through the Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."

>>>>  Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does
>>>>there  have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no
>>>>balancing  return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>>
>>> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel,
>>>the French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a
>>>British driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in
>>>the UK. The terminal operator would provide the logistics to move
>>>the trailer to the train and then off the train at the other end.
>>>Needs a fair amnount of parking space at each end as arriving /
>>>departing trailers would not necessarily match the train times.

>> Do they have special trains dedicated to this, rather than mixing
>>them in with regular HGVs? If you have to tow one trailer out, then
>>go back in through the exit door and tow the next one out (etc) it
>>would take ages to unload.
>> The more think about it, how would you load it? Drive in through the
>>rear door, all the way to the front, unhitch and return to the rear
>>for the next trailer. Pull that all the way to the front, unhitch and
>>... err ... there's the first trailer blocking the way out.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8r0kjJvvIY
>
>
>Sorry, but you have missed the point. I am not saying these trains
>currently operate, I am answering a potential suggestion posed on 29th
>at 0124 which says
>"The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>drivers to accompany their loads across the water."
>
>Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers
>and new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented -
>probably outwith the current Eurotunnel terminals at Calais and
>Folkestone.

So where it says above: "to be transported on Shuttle trains" it means
"to be transported on a new design of shuttle train for the tunnel that
doesn't exist yet[1]", rather than "to be transported on existing
le-Shuttle trains"?

[1] If it does, do we have any photos of it going into or out of the
tunnel?
--
Roland Perry

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/04/2022 13:33, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of their
>>>>>> own
>>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais and
>>>>>> back,
>>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>>
>>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>>
>>>> Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does there
>>>> have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no balancing
>>>> return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>>
>>> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
>>> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
>>> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
>>> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to the
>>> train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair amnount of
>>> parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers would not
>>> necessarily match the train times.
>>
>> The logistics must include small tractor units to move the trailers on and
>> off the train, along with the necessary drivers.
>>
>
> As per this (sorry about the company name under present circumstances!)
> https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.920oxT-PakGgwzSnEfe4RAHaFj%26pid%3DApi&f=1

Indeed. You see plenty of them buzzing around at ferry ports.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 27/03/2022 11:06, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>> here.
>>>
>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>
>>> Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>
>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>
>>
>
> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>
> I’m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
> then it is a duck. With a little thought I’m sure I could come up with
> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship. You
> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.

There is such a thing as a cruise ferry!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 1 Apr 2022 17:09:13 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 01/04/2022 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t26jqt$plq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:31 on Fri, 1 Apr 2022,
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 01/04/2022 06:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <eumdnadWm8E5ZNj_nZ2dnUU7-aednZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>>> 19:57:40 on Thu, 31 Mar 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 29/03/2022 14:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at
>>>>>>>>> least
>>>>>>>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  The eurotunnel freight wagons don't allow easy transport of trailers
>>>>>>>> without tractor units; perhaps Eurotunnel would need a fleet of
>>>>>>>> their  own
>>>>>>>> shunting tractor units which just went from Folkestone to Calais
>>>>>>>> and  back,
>>>>>>>> repeatedly. Or redesign the wagons.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.railwaygazette.com/freight/cargobeamer-network-extended-to-t
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> he-uk/59932.article
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "CargoBeamer has formed a partnership with Eurotunnel enabling
>>>>>>> unaccompanied lorry semi-trailers arriving at its rail-road transfer
>>>>>>> terminal in Calais to be transported on Shuttle trains through the
>>>>>>> Channel Tunnel and then onwards to Ashford in southeast England."
>>>>>>  Does the temporary tractor get sent through the tunnel, and does
>>>>>> there  have to be a driver to accompany it? Presumably if there's no
>>>>>> balancing  return movement the tractor would have to go "light engine".
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole point is that only the trailer goes through the tunnel, the
>>>>> French driver and tractor going to their next job and then a British
>>>>> driver and tractor picks up the trailer when it arrives in the UK. The
>>>>> terminal operator would provide the logistics to move the trailer to
>>>>> the train and then off the train at the other end. Needs a fair
>>>>> amnount of parking space at each end as arriving / departing trailers
>>>>> would not necessarily match the train times.
>>>>
>>>> Do they have special trains dedicated to this, rather than mixing them
>>>> in with regular HGVs? If you have to tow one trailer out, then go back
>>>> in through the exit door and tow the next one out (etc) it would take
>>>> ages to unload.
>>>>
>>>> The more think about it, how would you load it? Drive in through the
>>>> rear door, all the way to the front, unhitch and return to the rear for
>>>> the next trailer. Pull that all the way to the front, unhitch and ...
>>>> err ... there's the first trailer blocking the way out.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8r0kjJvvIY
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, but you have missed the point. I am not saying these trains
>>> currently operate, I am answering a potential suggestion posed on 29th
>>> at 0124 which says
>>> "The future for freight might be for separate tractor units or at least
>>> drivers on both sides of the Channel. There's really no reason for the
>>> drivers to accompany their loads across the water."
>>>
>>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers and
>>> new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented - probably
>>> outwith the current Eurotunnel terminals at Calais and Folkestone.
>>>
>>
>> In which case they might as well run deeper in to either country and save
>> the drive to the coast, surely? But you'd lose the benefits of the existing
>> customs/etc infrastructure present at the terminals…
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>>
>
>Back to the original thread, it looks like the legal situation might be
>worse for P&O than they had hoped. It would be interesting to know what
>criminal breaches are being investigated.
>
>“The Insolvency Service said: Following its inquiries, the Insolvency
>Service has commenced formal criminal and civil investigations into the
>circumstances surrounding the recent redundancies made by P&O Ferries. As
>these are ongoing investigations, no further comment or information can be
>provided at this time."
>
The first thing that comes to mind is trading while insolvent (which
seems to be primarily a civil offence) or rather any related improper
actions (which could be criminal or civil offences) taken by the
company or its officers to avoid that specific offence .

On 01/04/2022 17:44, ColinR wrote:

> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers and
> new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented

They would just use the methods which are quite happily being used on
the Continent.

--
Arthur Figgis

In message <w8idnbb-Nv0IAdT_nZ2dnUU7-d-dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
14:09:42 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers
>>and new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented
>
>They would just use the methods which are quite happily being used on
>the Continent.

Would I be correct in thinking there aren't matching facilities in the
UK, nor has anyone built and approved the new style of freight train for
the tunnel?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <w8idnbb-Nv0IAdT_nZ2dnUU7-d-dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 14:09:42 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
> remarked:
>>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers
>>> and new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented
>>
>> They would just use the methods which are quite happily being used on
>> the Continent.
>
> Would I be correct in thinking there aren't matching facilities in the
> UK, nor has anyone built and approved the new style of freight train for
> the tunnel?

I'm not clear why different freight shuttle wagons would be needed?

On 03/04/2022 16:20, Recliner wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <w8idnbb-Nv0IAdT_nZ2dnUU7-d-dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 14:09:42 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers
>>>> and new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented
>>>
>>> They would just use the methods which are quite happily being used on
>>> the Continent.
>>
>> Would I be correct in thinking there aren't matching facilities in the
>> UK, nor has anyone built and approved the new style of freight train for
>> the tunnel?
>
> I'm not clear why different freight shuttle wagons would be needed?
>

Normal freight shuttle, drive in, park, next artic follows, parks, next
artic follows, park etc.

With unaccompanied trailers they need to be backed on (full length of
train to start, reducing as the train fills), dropped, tractor unit then
needs to drive back up the full length of train before next trailer can
be backed down etc.

Very different process so current shuttle trains not practicable as the
dropping process is very time consuming. Better to be done elsewhere
where more space is available.

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 03/04/2022 16:20, Recliner wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <w8idnbb-Nv0IAdT_nZ2dnUU7-d-dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 14:09:42 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers
>>>>> and new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented
>>>>
>>>> They would just use the methods which are quite happily being used on
>>>> the Continent.
>>>
>>> Would I be correct in thinking there aren't matching facilities in the
>>> UK, nor has anyone built and approved the new style of freight train for
>>> the tunnel?
>>
>> I'm not clear why different freight shuttle wagons would be needed?
>>
>
> Normal freight shuttle, drive in, park, next artic follows, parks, next
> artic follows, park etc.
>
> With unaccompanied trailers they need to be backed on (full length of
> train to start, reducing as the train fills), dropped, tractor unit then
> needs to drive back up the full length of train before next trailer can
> be backed down etc.
>
> Very different process so current shuttle trains not practicable as the
> dropping process is very time consuming. Better to be done elsewhere
> where more space is available.
>

Why such unnecessary complexity? Just use temporary, small shunting
tractor units to haul the trailers on to standard freight shuttles and off
at the other side. Ideally, these would be electric.

So, articulated truck pulls in, the road tractor unit disconnects and
drives away to a holding/service area, while the waiting local shunting
tractor couples up and takes the trailer on to the train. These would be
driven by local shunting drivers (but ideally be self-driven) who would not
go through the Tunnel. The process is reversed at the other side. The
shunting drivers just work in one terminal.

So, no drivers waste time going through the Tunnel, and the road tractors
are released as soon as they drop off their trailers. They may then wait
for then next for their next load in a holding/service area, or go straight
across to the pick-up area if the next load is already waiting for them.

In message <t2cdv5$a3l$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:05 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022,
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <w8idnbb-Nv0IAdT_nZ2dnUU7-d-dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 14:09:42 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers
>>>> and new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented
>>>
>>> They would just use the methods which are quite happily being used on
>>> the Continent.
>>
>> Would I be correct in thinking there aren't matching facilities in the
>> UK, nor has anyone built and approved the new style of freight train for
>> the tunnel?
>
>I'm not clear why different freight shuttle wagons would be needed?

The loading/unloading facility in one of the earlier videos showed the
containers being skated sideways onto open trucks.
--
Roland Perry

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <w8idnbb-Nv0IAdT_nZ2dnUU7-d-dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 14:09:42 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers
>>>> and new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented
>>>
>>> They would just use the methods which are quite happily being used on
>>> the Continent.
>>
>> Would I be correct in thinking there aren't matching facilities in the
>> UK, nor has anyone built and approved the new style of freight train for
>> the tunnel?
>
> I'm not clear why different freight shuttle wagons would be needed?
>
>

In order to not take the tractor unit with you, only the trailer. That's
not achievable with the current Shuttle stock.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t2cdv5$a3l$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:05 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022,
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <w8idnbb-Nv0IAdT_nZ2dnUU7-d-dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 14:09:42 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers
>>>>> and new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented
>>>>
>>>> They would just use the methods which are quite happily being used on
>>>> the Continent.
>>>
>>> Would I be correct in thinking there aren't matching facilities in the
>>> UK, nor has anyone built and approved the new style of freight train for
>>> the tunnel?
>>
>> I'm not clear why different freight shuttle wagons would be needed?
>
> The loading/unloading facility in one of the earlier videos showed the
> containers being skated sideways onto open trucks.

Err… I’ve lost the video but I think it was trailers rather than containers
that were being skated sideways.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <t2ciim$85l$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:38:46 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t2cdv5$a3l$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:20:05 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <w8idnbb-Nv0IAdT_nZ2dnUU7-d-dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 14:09:42 on Sun, 3 Apr 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> Any such trains would have to be dedicated to unaccompanied trailers
>>>>>> and new methods of loading / unloading would need to be invented
>>>>>
>>>>> They would just use the methods which are quite happily being used on
>>>>> the Continent.
>>>>
>>>> Would I be correct in thinking there aren't matching facilities in the
>>>> UK, nor has anyone built and approved the new style of freight train for
>>>> the tunnel?
>>>
>>> I'm not clear why different freight shuttle wagons would be needed?
>>
>> The loading/unloading facility in one of the earlier videos showed the
>> containers being skated sideways onto open trucks.

Trucks = railway wagons, if we prefer.

>Err… I’ve lost the video but I think it was trailers rather than containers
>that were being skated sideways.

Damn those invisible words!

Yes, the containers were still on their trailers. I wonder if they also
do curtain-sided trailers, tankers and so on?

--
Roland Perry