On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:43:33 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:

>Am 12.04.2022 um 23:47 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>
>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>>
>>
>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
>> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>>
>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>
>Let's be very precise: In Germany, trams on the road have to obey the
>same road traffic rules as busses with the exception of not being able
>to chose which lane to drive in; I would strongly speculate this is the
>same in UK (and is one reason not to build any "trams on the road").

It's not quite the same. For example, traffic lights don't apply to
trams - at light-controlled junctions, trams will always have their own
signals which will be the same as on off-road sections. Obviously, these
will change in sync with the traffic lights on shared sections, but both
will always be present.

Signs giving instructions for mandatory or prohibited turns also don't
apply to trams, but other signs do, unless explicitly overridden by
tram-specific signs. That includes speed limits.

There's a good example of that here on a shared section in Manchester:

https://goo.gl/maps/MrKUvsd38qmvSaqs6

The tram has a tram signal alongside the traffic lights, which don't
apply to trams. And if you zoom in on the sign you can see that the "All
traffic must turn left" instruction (the white on blue arrow) has an
exception for cycles, but not trams - because trams are exempt from any
signage instruction on where to go, because of course they cannot
possibly obey them anyway (or have no choice but to obey them). There's
also a separate tram speed limit here (the diamond 10), which overrides
the normal urban road speed limit.

If you go a little further along, though, to the point where it ceases
to be shared by motor vehicles, we get this sign:

https://goo.gl/maps/1x4F5Hy4FX7KxFxv7

In this case, this "no entry" sign has an exception for both cycles and
trams, indicating that, unlike the "turn left" sign earlier, it would
apply to trams unless an exception was granted.

>Other road traffic in Germany occasionally has special rules with
>respect to trams: a tram going straight ahead in the right lane has
>priority over a car turning right from the middle lane (just like a
>bicycle in the right bike lane has prirority over a car turning right
>from the main lane).

The UK doesn't have that rule, but it does have a rule that you can't
pass a tram on the left when it has stopped to pick up passengers, even
if there is otherwise a lane between the tram and the kerb and passing
on the left would otherwise be allowed by the general rule permitting it
when traffic is slow-moving or stationary.

>There are also special rules for passing trams at a tram stop in the
>middle of the road.
>
>Within the last 20-30 years, mixed traffic is mostly being replaced by
>separate tram lanes with separate traffic lights for busses and trams
>etc. Special lane theoretically can have special lane speed restrictions.

The UK has, to a great extent, learned from European experience and only
has shared use lanes where the road simply isn't wide enough for
segregated traffic.

Mark

On 13/04/2022 13:31, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:43:33 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
> wrote:
>> Am 12.04.2022 um 23:47 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
>>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>
>>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>>
>>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
>>> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>>>
>>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>>
>> Let's be very precise: In Germany, trams on the road have to obey the
>> same road traffic rules as busses with the exception of not being able
>> to chose which lane to drive in; I would strongly speculate this is the
>> same in UK (and is one reason not to build any "trams on the road").
>
> It's not quite the same. For example, traffic lights don't apply to
> trams - at light-controlled junctions, trams will always have their own
> signals which will be the same as on off-road sections. Obviously, these
> will change in sync with the traffic lights on shared sections, but both
> will always be present.

Even that's not obvious. The signal on the right here shows green for
road vehicles but stop for trams (which would have to make a conflicting
move by turning left from the right lane to avoid a sharper curve).
<https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3863947>

On 13/04/2022 09:03, Marland wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than
>>>>>> roads, and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>>>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>>>>
>>>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally
>>>>> applicable road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights,
>>>>> etc.
>>>>
>>>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to
>>>> their own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road
>>>> regulations.
>
> Arn’t they part of the road regulations that just happen to be a separate
> category?
>
>
>>>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>>>
>>> That's the case in Edinburgh.  For examples, see
>>> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Trams:_signals#Street
>>> running signalling>
>>
>> Where is there a website that contains information on signals and signal
>> signs on UK tram networks, BTW?
>>
>>
>
> Are there many more than those that can be found in the highway code or its
> relation “know your traffic signs?
>
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519129/know-your-traffic-signs.pdf
>
> They are put there as other road users are expected to know how to interact
> with other traffic
> even though a particular signal may not apply to them.

Thank you, I appreciate that. Is there a site with more comprehensive
information, however? I know that some of the diamond signal signs have
different images on them, besides what was listed in the link.

For example, I have seen one diamond signal sign with a thick,
horizontal line. I've also seen a signal sign with a line going halfway
up, though I believe that this is a shunt- or reverse-limit indicator.

I also know that there are different wayside signals to what was listed
in the URL. I have seen some aspects with part of LED indicators off,
and then turning on. I also believe that I have seen some with a white
light on the upper right from the main signal itself.

> Though it would probably be a safe bet that most drivers middle aged and
> over probably have not read an edition more up to date than the one
> current when they passed there test, and therefore unaware that tram only
> traffic signals exist let alone what they look like and figures on a
> diamond shaped plate are tram speed restrictions. In the handful of places
> where we do have trams drivers who see them regularly will have learned
> about the white signals by observation but the vast majority
> of drivers in the UK will never have seen a tram in the “flesh”.
>
> I was watching a news report on a pub telly while waiting for the rugby
> awhile back which showed a street in Manchester with trams, a couple of
> people remarked that they didn’t know we had trams in this country.
>

That's an all together separate conversation.

"Why does that train thing get to go ahead of me!"

On 13/04/2022 11:46, Peter Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:50:15 +0100, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Didn't Leeds play with a guided bus system?
>
> I don't think so. It did get powers to build a tram system but it
> wasn't build because it couldn't get funding.

What's up with the ULR project in Coventry, BTW?

Or is that just another pipe dream?

On 13/04/2022 13:31, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:43:33 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
> wrote:
>
>> Am 12.04.2022 um 23:47 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
>>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>
>>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
>>> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>>>
>>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>>
>> Let's be very precise: In Germany, trams on the road have to obey the
>> same road traffic rules as busses with the exception of not being able
>> to chose which lane to drive in; I would strongly speculate this is the
>> same in UK (and is one reason not to build any "trams on the road").
>
> It's not quite the same. For example, traffic lights don't apply to
> trams - at light-controlled junctions, trams will always have their own
> signals which will be the same as on off-road sections. Obviously, these
> will change in sync with the traffic lights on shared sections, but both
> will always be present.
>
> Signs giving instructions for mandatory or prohibited turns also don't
> apply to trams, but other signs do, unless explicitly overridden by
> tram-specific signs. That includes speed limits.
>
> There's a good example of that here on a shared section in Manchester:
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/MrKUvsd38qmvSaqs6
>
> The tram has a tram signal alongside the traffic lights, which don't
> apply to trams. And if you zoom in on the sign you can see that the "All
> traffic must turn left" instruction (the white on blue arrow) has an
> exception for cycles, but not trams - because trams are exempt from any
> signage instruction on where to go, because of course they cannot
> possibly obey them anyway (or have no choice but to obey them). There's
> also a separate tram speed limit here (the diamond 10), which overrides
> the normal urban road speed limit.
>
> If you go a little further along, though, to the point where it ceases
> to be shared by motor vehicles, we get this sign:
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/1x4F5Hy4FX7KxFxv7
>
> In this case, this "no entry" sign has an exception for both cycles and
> trams, indicating that, unlike the "turn left" sign earlier, it would
> apply to trams unless an exception was granted.
>
>> Other road traffic in Germany occasionally has special rules with
>> respect to trams: a tram going straight ahead in the right lane has
>> priority over a car turning right from the middle lane (just like a
>> bicycle in the right bike lane has prirority over a car turning right
>>from the main lane).
>
> The UK doesn't have that rule, but it does have a rule that you can't
> pass a tram on the left when it has stopped to pick up passengers, even
> if there is otherwise a lane between the tram and the kerb and passing
> on the left would otherwise be allowed by the general rule permitting it
> when traffic is slow-moving or stationary.
>
>> There are also special rules for passing trams at a tram stop in the
>> middle of the road.
>>
>> Within the last 20-30 years, mixed traffic is mostly being replaced by
>> separate tram lanes with separate traffic lights for busses and trams
>> etc. Special lane theoretically can have special lane speed restrictions.
>
> The UK has, to a great extent, learned from European experience and only
> has shared use lanes where the road simply isn't wide enough for
> segregated traffic.
>
> Mark

In a word, trams have their own operating rules. And cars have to afford
them right of way.

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/04/2022 11:46, Peter Johnson wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:50:15 +0100, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Didn't Leeds play with a guided bus system?
>>
>> I don't think so. It did get powers to build a tram system but it
>> wasn't build because it couldn't get funding.
>
> What's up with the ULR project in Coventry, BTW?
>
> Or is that just another pipe dream?
>

It seems to be trundling along, but I suspect the funding for actual
construction hasn't been secured yet. So it's really more of a
proof-of-concept research project at the moment than a real, committed
project:

<https://www.railway-technology.com/analysis/coventrys-very-light-solution-approaches/>

Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
> On 12 Apr 2022 10:15:03 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Any one know what set up the The Conwy Mussel Fishery (Jetty Hoist) Light
>> Railway Order
>> referred to?
>>
> Here you are:
> https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1pJpxYKzLNdSRx-JqLg?e=Dz44vi
> Pretty sure it wasn't built.
>

Thanks for that,
Further research using the road name mentioned in that link showed that the
premises were a Goverment research station established in 1913 that
developed purification techniques for the Mussels caught at Conwy . The
original site closed in 1975 but they only moved a little way to the
replacement which fits the time of the LRO.
That closed in 1999 and the premises are now used by various other
ventures.
There is a BFI film from 1950 showing the operations at the
original which actually mentions that the sacks of the Mussels were very
heavy and shows the fisherman carrying large sacks up steep steps to the
tanks.
Presumably by the 1970’s someone decided enough was enough and decided to
install a hoist at the new site in the form of a short length of rope
hauled narrow gauge railway , as it would have crossed a public highway it
seems to have triggered the need for a Light Railway Order . That required
level crossing gates as the cable would be stretched along the track once
the trolley (s) had got on the downward side of the crossing.

As you say it doesn’t appear to have been built after all.

GH

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 13/04/2022 13:31, Mark Goodge wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:43:33 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
>> wrote:
>>> Am 12.04.2022 um 23:47 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
>>>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>>>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
>>>> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>>>>
>>>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>>>
>>> Let's be very precise: In Germany, trams on the road have to obey the
>>> same road traffic rules as busses with the exception of not being able
>>> to chose which lane to drive in; I would strongly speculate this is the
>>> same in UK (and is one reason not to build any "trams on the road").
>>
>> It's not quite the same. For example, traffic lights don't apply to
>> trams - at light-controlled junctions, trams will always have their own
>> signals which will be the same as on off-road sections. Obviously, these
>> will change in sync with the traffic lights on shared sections, but both
>> will always be present.
>
> Even that's not obvious. The signal on the right here shows green for
> road vehicles but stop for trams (which would have to make a conflicting
> move by turning left from the right lane to avoid a sharper curve).
> <https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3863947>

There are several moves like that I can think of in Edinburgh, not all of
which have yellow boxes. There’s a particularly interesting junction at
Haymarket where the eastbound tram can be signalled into a traffic lane
where vehicles may legitimately be stopped. I expect the lights are phased
to try to avoid that, but there are lines of yellow dots on the road which
show the swept outline of the tram. They’re not obvious from cars but they
are from the tram so they’ll be there to let the tram driver knows whether
their path is clear.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Am 13.04.2022 um 17:22 schrieb Recliner:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/04/2022 11:46, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:50:15 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Didn't Leeds play with a guided bus system?
>>>
>>> I don't think so. It did get powers to build a tram system but it
>>> wasn't build because it couldn't get funding.
>>
>> What's up with the ULR project in Coventry, BTW?
>>
>> Or is that just another pipe dream?
>>
>
> It seems to be trundling along, but I suspect the funding for actual
> construction hasn't been secured yet. So it's really more of a
> proof-of-concept research project at the moment than a real, committed
> project:
>
> <https://www.railway-technology.com/analysis/coventrys-very-light-solution-approaches/>

To be blunt, it's a research project with little expected real-life
benefit compared to the existing alternative solutions:

Battery-powered electric busses would be cheaper and more flexible,
conventional tram would be at most marginally more expensive while
allowing significantly higher passenger numbers (the option of a
super-cap to provide up to a mile of "wire-free operation" and to srote
energy from braking is a tried-and-tested technology).

Rolf

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 17:41:10 +0200
Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>Am 13.04.2022 um 17:22 schrieb Recliner:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 13/04/2022 11:46, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:50:15 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Didn't Leeds play with a guided bus system?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think so. It did get powers to build a tram system but it
>>>> wasn't build because it couldn't get funding.
>>>
>>> What's up with the ULR project in Coventry, BTW?
>>>
>>> Or is that just another pipe dream?
>>>
>>
>> It seems to be trundling along, but I suspect the funding for actual
>> construction hasn't been secured yet. So it's really more of a
>> proof-of-concept research project at the moment than a real, committed
>> project:
>>
>>
><https://www.railway-technology.com/analysis/coventrys-very-light-solution-appr
>oaches/>
>
>To be blunt, it's a research project with little expected real-life
>benefit compared to the existing alternative solutions:
>
>Battery-powered electric busses would be cheaper and more flexible,

I think the jury is still out on whether they'll be cheaper over the lifetime
of the bus because how long the very expensive batteries will last before the
range falls to a point where they need to be changed is still unknown.

Am 13.04.2022 um 17:53 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 17:41:10 +0200
> Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>> Am 13.04.2022 um 17:22 schrieb Recliner:
>>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 13/04/2022 11:46, Peter Johnson wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 19:50:15 +0100, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Didn't Leeds play with a guided bus system?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think so. It did get powers to build a tram system but it
>>>>> wasn't build because it couldn't get funding.
>>>>
>>>> What's up with the ULR project in Coventry, BTW?
>>>>
>>>> Or is that just another pipe dream?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It seems to be trundling along, but I suspect the funding for actual
>>> construction hasn't been secured yet. So it's really more of a
>>> proof-of-concept research project at the moment than a real, committed
>>> project:
>>>
>>>
>> <https://www.railway-technology.com/analysis/coventrys-very-light-solution-appr
>> oaches/>
>>
>> To be blunt, it's a research project with little expected real-life
>> benefit compared to the existing alternative solutions:
>>
>> Battery-powered electric busses would be cheaper and more flexible,
>
> I think the jury is still out on whether they'll be cheaper over the lifetime
> of the bus because how long the very expensive batteries will last before the
> range falls to a point where they need to be changed is still unknown.

But that's the same issue whether you use battery-powered busses or a
battery-powered tram.

Rolf

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>> On 12 Apr 2022 10:15:03 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Any one know what set up the The Conwy Mussel Fishery (Jetty Hoist) Light
>>> Railway Order
>>> referred to?
>>>
>> Here you are:
>> https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1pJpxYKzLNdSRx-JqLg?e=Dz44vi
>> Pretty sure it wasn't built.
>>
>
> Thanks for that,
> Further research using the road name mentioned in that link showed that the
> premises were a Goverment research station established in 1913 that
> developed purification techniques for the Mussels caught at Conwy . The
> original site closed in 1975 but they only moved a little way to the
> replacement which fits the time of the LRO.
> That closed in 1999 and the premises are now used by various other
> ventures.
> There is a BFI film from 1950 showing the operations at the
> original which actually mentions that the sacks of the Mussels were very
> heavy and shows the fisherman carrying large sacks up steep steps to the
> tanks.
> Presumably by the 1970’s someone decided enough was enough and decided to
> install a hoist at the new site in the form of a short length of rope
> hauled narrow gauge railway , as it would have crossed a public highway it
> seems to have triggered the need for a Light Railway Order . That required
> level crossing gates as the cable would be stretched along the track once
> the trolley (s) had got on the downward side of the crossing.
>
> As you say it doesn’t appear to have been built after all.
>
>

If it had existed, I'm very sure I would have known about it when I was
younger.

The location is around here <Dropped pin
https://goo.gl/maps/QgCLUgXPhHJHbWLi8>, and on streetview there's no
evidence of anything of the kind at either of the two slipways.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <t34dlg$89a$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:42:08 on Tue, 12 Apr
2022, muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 06:24:22 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t3258p$4t6$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:06:33 on Mon, 11 Apr
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>I thought 'light railways' (like preserved railways) were limited to 25mph,
>>>whereas trams go up to 50mph (or more?). Yet tram stops, even in
>>>segregated sections, allow passengers to freely walk across the tracks,
>>>with no fences or barriers.
>>
>>Trams have many safety features to deflect pedestrians rather than crush
>
>I wouldn't want to put them to the test.
>
>>them, and when street-running ding their bell frequently.
>>
>>Wasn't the OP really asking about *miniature* railways like the one at
>>Longleat?
>
>No. I was asking about where the dividing line is between railways where
>people can meander along and across and ones where there is strict segregation.

Even the ECML still has a couple of level crossings one can wander
across.
--
Roland Perry

In message <jblrhrFo7kkU1@mid.individual.net>, at 17:34:51 on Tue, 12
Apr 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:

>Perhaps the Croydon accident is a wake up call that perhaps building an
>electric railway and operating it on the cheap as a tram needs to be
>considered a bit more carefully.

But for reasons quite disjoint from mowing down pedestrians.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t34g4k$1dtr$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 18:24:21 on Tue, 12 Apr
2022, muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:48:51 +0100
>Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads, and
>>they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>
>>
>>On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>
>>That can make Metrolink progress painfully slow through Manchester city
>>centre, and, for example, on parts of the Eccles route.
>
>For the (current) price of the waste of money called HS2, Manchester, Brum,
>Leeds and [pick a couple more cities] could have built proper underground
>systems built, not just cut price trams (except for leeds which got nothing
>and AFAIK is the largest connurbation in europe without a local rail PT
>system of any sort).

That'll come as news to my friend who lived in Headingly and took the
train into work (in the City Centre).
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:48:51 +0100, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>>> tracks?".
>>>>
>>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to walk
>>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings). Light railways
>>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy rail.
>>>
>>> This is a circular argument. Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>>> run on roads. But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>>> road? The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>>
>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads, and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>
>
>On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>
>That can make Metrolink progress painfully slow through Manchester city
>centre, and, for example, on parts of the Eccles route.
>
Trams are not a class of traffic to which the normal speed limit signs
apply; they are not mechanically propelled vehicles "intended or
adapted" for road use :-
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tram-motor-vehicle-daniel-rothel

The standard round signs also thus do not apply to e.g. pedal cycles
or horse/horse-drawn traffic. Trams have their own diamond-shaped
signs (in KPH not MPH) which can be used on or off a highway.
https://uktram.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/TGN32-Signing_of_Tramways_2.pdf
That guidance says that a tramway speed limit _should_ not be higher
than that for other traffic. There will also presumably be a
system-wide absolute limit which could be set lower than 30mph (e.g.
45kph). A tramway could also feasibly have a higher (but maybe not by
much) speed limit with e.g. central reserved track at a crossroads.

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 14:16:39 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:

>On 13/04/2022 13:31, Mark Goodge wrote:

>> It's not quite the same. For example, traffic lights don't apply to
>> trams - at light-controlled junctions, trams will always have their own
>> signals which will be the same as on off-road sections. Obviously, these
>> will change in sync with the traffic lights on shared sections, but both
>> will always be present.
>
>Even that's not obvious. The signal on the right here shows green for
>road vehicles but stop for trams (which would have to make a conflicting
>move by turning left from the right lane to avoid a sharper curve).
><https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3863947>

That's not shared use at that point, though. As you approach the signal,
trams and road vehicles are in different, albeit adjacent, lanes. So the
signals can differ, just as traffic lights can have different
indications for traffic in adjacent lanes.

That's more easily seen on Google street view; the trams have segregated
lanes in the centre of the road but, at this point, need to cross the
westbound vehicle lane at the junction.

https://goo.gl/maps/uPgNKGAqKmEUxBQx5

Mark

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 02:30:20 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 13/04/2022 00:22, Certes wrote:
>> On 12/04/2022 22:47, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>> On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott
>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott
>>>>>>>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed
>>>>>>>> to walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>>>>>> tracks?".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to
>>>>>>> walk
>>>>>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings).  Light
>>>>>>> railways
>>>>>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy
>>>>>>> rail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a circular argument.  Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>>>>>> run on roads.  But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>>>>>> road?  The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>>>>>
>>>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than
>>>>> roads, and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>>>
>>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally
>>>> applicable road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights,
>>>> etc.
>>>
Your first trouble is that trams work in kph (maybe an exception for
Blackpool as it has been there for years?) so road speed limit signs
would need translation.

>>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to
>>> their own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road
>>> regulations.
>>>
>>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>>
>> That's the case in Edinburgh.  For examples, see
>> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Trams:_signals#Street
>> running signalling>
>
>Where is there a website that contains information on signals and signal
>signs on UK tram networks, BTW?
>
Some in :-
https://uktram.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/TGN32-Signing_of_Tramways_2.pdf

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 13:31:46 +0100, Mark Goodge
<usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:43:33 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
>wrote:
>
>>Am 12.04.2022 um 23:47 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
>>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>
>>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
>>> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>>>
>>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>>
>>Let's be very precise: In Germany, trams on the road have to obey the
>>same road traffic rules as busses with the exception of not being able
>>to chose which lane to drive in; I would strongly speculate this is the
>>same in UK (and is one reason not to build any "trams on the road").
>
>It's not quite the same. For example, traffic lights don't apply to
>trams - at light-controlled junctions, trams will always have their own
>signals which will be the same as on off-road sections. Obviously, these
>will change in sync with the traffic lights on shared sections, but both
>will always be present.
>
>Signs giving instructions for mandatory or prohibited turns also don't
>apply to trams, but other signs do, unless explicitly overridden by
>tram-specific signs. That includes speed limits.
>
Trams are excluded from the general definition of
"mechanically-propelled vehicles" to which road traffic signs apply.

>There's a good example of that here on a shared section in Manchester:
>
>https://goo.gl/maps/MrKUvsd38qmvSaqs6
>
>The tram has a tram signal alongside the traffic lights, which don't
>apply to trams. And if you zoom in on the sign you can see that the "All
>traffic must turn left" instruction (the white on blue arrow) has an
>exception for cycles, but not trams - because trams are exempt from any
>signage instruction on where to go, because of course they cannot
>possibly obey them anyway (or have no choice but to obey them). There's
>also a separate tram speed limit here (the diamond 10), which overrides
>the normal urban road speed limit.
>
>If you go a little further along, though, to the point where it ceases
>to be shared by motor vehicles, we get this sign:
>
>https://goo.gl/maps/1x4F5Hy4FX7KxFxv7
>
>In this case, this "no entry" sign has an exception for both cycles and
>trams, indicating that, unlike the "turn left" sign earlier, it would
>apply to trams unless an exception was granted.
>
>>Other road traffic in Germany occasionally has special rules with
>>respect to trams: a tram going straight ahead in the right lane has
>>priority over a car turning right from the middle lane (just like a
>>bicycle in the right bike lane has prirority over a car turning right
>>from the main lane).
>
>The UK doesn't have that rule, but it does have a rule that you can't
>pass a tram on the left when it has stopped to pick up passengers, even
>if there is otherwise a lane between the tram and the kerb and passing
>on the left would otherwise be allowed by the general rule permitting it
>when traffic is slow-moving or stationary.
>
>>There are also special rules for passing trams at a tram stop in the
>>middle of the road.
>>
>>Within the last 20-30 years, mixed traffic is mostly being replaced by
>>separate tram lanes with separate traffic lights for busses and trams
>>etc. Special lane theoretically can have special lane speed restrictions.
>
>The UK has, to a great extent, learned from European experience and only
>has shared use lanes where the road simply isn't wide enough for
>segregated traffic.
>
>Mark

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:48:51 +0100, Bevan Price
> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to
>>>>>> walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>>>> tracks?".
>>>>>
>>>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to walk
>>>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings). Light railways
>>>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy rail.
>>>>
>>>> This is a circular argument. Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>>>> run on roads. But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>>>> road? The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>>>
>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads,
>>> and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>
>>
>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>
>> That can make Metrolink progress painfully slow through Manchester city
>> centre, and, for example, on parts of the Eccles route.
>>
> Trams are not a class of traffic to which the normal speed limit signs
> apply; they are not mechanically propelled vehicles "intended or
> adapted" for road use :-
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tram-motor-vehicle-daniel-rothel
>
> The standard round signs also thus do not apply to e.g. pedal cycles
> or horse/horse-drawn traffic. Trams have their own diamond-shaped
> signs (in KPH not MPH) which can be used on or off a highway.
> https://uktram.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/TGN32-Signing_of_Tramways_2.pdf
> That guidance says that a tramway speed limit _should_ not be higher
> than that for other traffic. There will also presumably be a
> system-wide absolute limit which could be set lower than 30mph (e.g.
> 45kph). A tramway could also feasibly have a higher (but maybe not by
> much) speed limit with e.g. central reserved track at a crossroads.
>

The Croydon trams used to run at up to 80 km/h (now reduced), and I think
other UK trams are similar(eg, NET, Metrolink 80 km/h, Sheffield 90 km/h).

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>> On 12 Apr 2022 10:15:03 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any one know what set up the The Conwy Mussel Fishery (Jetty Hoist) Light
>>>> Railway Order
>>>> referred to?
>>>>
>>> Here you are:
>>> https://1drv.ms/b/s!AkhvgPvXD0_1pJpxYKzLNdSRx-JqLg?e=Dz44vi
>>> Pretty sure it wasn't built.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for that,
>> Further research using the road name mentioned in that link showed that the
>> premises were a Goverment research station established in 1913 that
>> developed purification techniques for the Mussels caught at Conwy . The
>> original site closed in 1975 but they only moved a little way to the
>> replacement which fits the time of the LRO.
>> That closed in 1999 and the premises are now used by various other
>> ventures.
>> There is a BFI film from 1950 showing the operations at the
>> original which actually mentions that the sacks of the Mussels were very
>> heavy and shows the fisherman carrying large sacks up steep steps to the
>> tanks.
>> Presumably by the 1970’s someone decided enough was enough and decided to
>> install a hoist at the new site in the form of a short length of rope
>> hauled narrow gauge railway , as it would have crossed a public highway it
>> seems to have triggered the need for a Light Railway Order . That required
>> level crossing gates as the cable would be stretched along the track once
>> the trolley (s) had got on the downward side of the crossing.
>>
>> As you say it doesn’t appear to have been built after all.
>>
>>
>
> If it had existed, I'm very sure I would have known about it when I was
> younger.
>
> The location is around here <Dropped pin
> https://goo.gl/maps/QgCLUgXPhHJHbWLi8>, and on streetview there's no
> evidence of anything of the kind at either of the two slipways.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Yes , I had a good study of that location as well and came to the same
conclusion.
If it ever existed I’m sure there would be some photos around somewhere.

Still the Conwy Mussel Fishery Light Railway has a nice ring to it and
could provide the name for a fictional model railway, though the real one
that never was at around 45 metres in length wouldn’t
offer much scope.

GH

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:19:17 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 13/04/2022 13:31, Mark Goodge wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:43:33 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 12.04.2022 um 23:47 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
>>>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>
>>>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>>>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
>>>> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>>>>
>>>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>>>
>>> Let's be very precise: In Germany, trams on the road have to obey the
>>> same road traffic rules as busses with the exception of not being able
>>> to chose which lane to drive in; I would strongly speculate this is the
>>> same in UK (and is one reason not to build any "trams on the road").
>>
>> It's not quite the same. For example, traffic lights don't apply to
>> trams - at light-controlled junctions, trams will always have their own
>> signals which will be the same as on off-road sections. Obviously, these
>> will change in sync with the traffic lights on shared sections, but both
>> will always be present.
>>
>> Signs giving instructions for mandatory or prohibited turns also don't
>> apply to trams, but other signs do, unless explicitly overridden by
>> tram-specific signs. That includes speed limits.
>>
>> There's a good example of that here on a shared section in Manchester:
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/MrKUvsd38qmvSaqs6
>>
>> The tram has a tram signal alongside the traffic lights, which don't
>> apply to trams. And if you zoom in on the sign you can see that the "All
>> traffic must turn left" instruction (the white on blue arrow) has an
>> exception for cycles, but not trams - because trams are exempt from any
>> signage instruction on where to go, because of course they cannot
>> possibly obey them anyway (or have no choice but to obey them). There's
>> also a separate tram speed limit here (the diamond 10), which overrides
>> the normal urban road speed limit.
>>
>> If you go a little further along, though, to the point where it ceases
>> to be shared by motor vehicles, we get this sign:
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/1x4F5Hy4FX7KxFxv7
>>
>> In this case, this "no entry" sign has an exception for both cycles and
>> trams, indicating that, unlike the "turn left" sign earlier, it would
>> apply to trams unless an exception was granted.
>>
>>> Other road traffic in Germany occasionally has special rules with
>>> respect to trams: a tram going straight ahead in the right lane has
>>> priority over a car turning right from the middle lane (just like a
>>> bicycle in the right bike lane has prirority over a car turning right
>>>from the main lane).
>>
>> The UK doesn't have that rule, but it does have a rule that you can't
>> pass a tram on the left when it has stopped to pick up passengers, even
>> if there is otherwise a lane between the tram and the kerb and passing
>> on the left would otherwise be allowed by the general rule permitting it
>> when traffic is slow-moving or stationary.
>>
>>> There are also special rules for passing trams at a tram stop in the
>>> middle of the road.
>>>
>>> Within the last 20-30 years, mixed traffic is mostly being replaced by
>>> separate tram lanes with separate traffic lights for busses and trams
>>> etc. Special lane theoretically can have special lane speed restrictions.
>>
>> The UK has, to a great extent, learned from European experience and only
>> has shared use lanes where the road simply isn't wide enough for
>> segregated traffic.
>>
>> Mark
>
>
>In a word, trams have their own operating rules. And cars have to afford
>them right of way.
>
Only if a sign or general rule requires it. I don't recall any
location in e.g. Croydon where a tram can randomly introduce itself
into road traffic without signage, traffic lights or a general rule
(traffic or otherwise) preventing it.

On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:49:05 +0100, Scott
<newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 11:30:24 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>
>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to walk
>>> across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>> tracks?".
>>>
>>
>>It’s probably slightly more complex than that. This place has a train:
>>
>><http://www.eastlinks.co.uk/>
>><https://goo.gl/maps/hHmicsUZTCL9a2rj6>
>>
>>but the track is completely segregated and fenced except for two (or
>>three?) places, either side of the single station, where footways cross the
>>track. There is no protection for pedestrians except for the train
>>announcing its presence, but there are partial fences and no entry signs
>>for pedestrians at the crossings.
>>
>>So this is probably a light railway - it’s certainly not a tram - but
>>pedestrians are allowed to walk across the tracks at certain, well
>>specified points, with no gates and no warning other than the train’s
>>whistle.
>>
>Are there any national rail stations where passengers can cross the
>tracks? I certainly remember this from the past.
>
West Highland Line ?

On 13/04/2022 22:08, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 15:19:17 +0100, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 13/04/2022 13:31, Mark Goodge wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 11:43:33 +0200, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 12.04.2022 um 23:47 schrieb hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk:
>>>>> On 12/04/2022 18:48, Bevan Price wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>>>>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? I thought that unsgregated trams in the UK were subject to their
>>>>> own signal signs and signals, which can differ from road regulations.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is the case in Germany, AFAIK.
>>>>
>>>> Let's be very precise: In Germany, trams on the road have to obey the
>>>> same road traffic rules as busses with the exception of not being able
>>>> to chose which lane to drive in; I would strongly speculate this is the
>>>> same in UK (and is one reason not to build any "trams on the road").
>>>
>>> It's not quite the same. For example, traffic lights don't apply to
>>> trams - at light-controlled junctions, trams will always have their own
>>> signals which will be the same as on off-road sections. Obviously, these
>>> will change in sync with the traffic lights on shared sections, but both
>>> will always be present.
>>>
>>> Signs giving instructions for mandatory or prohibited turns also don't
>>> apply to trams, but other signs do, unless explicitly overridden by
>>> tram-specific signs. That includes speed limits.
>>>
>>> There's a good example of that here on a shared section in Manchester:
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/maps/MrKUvsd38qmvSaqs6
>>>
>>> The tram has a tram signal alongside the traffic lights, which don't
>>> apply to trams. And if you zoom in on the sign you can see that the "All
>>> traffic must turn left" instruction (the white on blue arrow) has an
>>> exception for cycles, but not trams - because trams are exempt from any
>>> signage instruction on where to go, because of course they cannot
>>> possibly obey them anyway (or have no choice but to obey them). There's
>>> also a separate tram speed limit here (the diamond 10), which overrides
>>> the normal urban road speed limit.
>>>
>>> If you go a little further along, though, to the point where it ceases
>>> to be shared by motor vehicles, we get this sign:
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/maps/1x4F5Hy4FX7KxFxv7
>>>
>>> In this case, this "no entry" sign has an exception for both cycles and
>>> trams, indicating that, unlike the "turn left" sign earlier, it would
>>> apply to trams unless an exception was granted.
>>>
>>>> Other road traffic in Germany occasionally has special rules with
>>>> respect to trams: a tram going straight ahead in the right lane has
>>>> priority over a car turning right from the middle lane (just like a
>>>> bicycle in the right bike lane has prirority over a car turning right
>>> >from the main lane).
>>>
>>> The UK doesn't have that rule, but it does have a rule that you can't
>>> pass a tram on the left when it has stopped to pick up passengers, even
>>> if there is otherwise a lane between the tram and the kerb and passing
>>> on the left would otherwise be allowed by the general rule permitting it
>>> when traffic is slow-moving or stationary.
>>>
>>>> There are also special rules for passing trams at a tram stop in the
>>>> middle of the road.
>>>>
>>>> Within the last 20-30 years, mixed traffic is mostly being replaced by
>>>> separate tram lanes with separate traffic lights for busses and trams
>>>> etc. Special lane theoretically can have special lane speed restrictions.
>>>
>>> The UK has, to a great extent, learned from European experience and only
>>> has shared use lanes where the road simply isn't wide enough for
>>> segregated traffic.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>
>>
>> In a word, trams have their own operating rules. And cars have to afford
>> them right of way.
>>
> Only if a sign or general rule requires it.I don't recall any
> location in e.g. Croydon where a tram can randomly introduce itself
> into road traffic without signage, traffic lights or a general rule
> (traffic or otherwise) preventing it.

All trams are subject to their signals and signal signs, like I said.
But when they have permission to move, they have right of way

On Wed, 13 Apr 2022 21:04:31 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 18:48:51 +0100, Bevan Price
>> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/04/2022 13:24, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:47:46 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 12:18:36 +0100, Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/04/2022 12:11, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022 09:23:03 +0100, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 11 Apr 2022 22:08:35 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think OP needs to rephrase the question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose the distilled question is, "Why are passengers allowed to
>>>>>>> walk across tram tracks, but not light railway
>>>>>>> tracks?".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because trams usually run on roads, and pedestrians are allowed to walk
>>>>>> across roads (and along them, even at level crossings). Light railways
>>>>>> generally seem to be fenced, perhaps because they used to be heavy rail.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a circular argument. Pedestrians are allowed because trams
>>>>> run on roads. But on what basis are the trams allowed to run on a
>>>>> road? The question seems to be: what are the defining criteria?
>>>>
>>>> Trams in the UK usually run much more on segregated track than roads,
>>>> and they usually run faster on such sections. But
>>>> passengers can still walk across the tracks, particularly at stops.
>>>
>>>
>>> On unsegregated track, trams in UK have to obey the locally applicable
>>> road regulations, including speed limits, traffic lights, etc.
>>>
>>> That can make Metrolink progress painfully slow through Manchester city
>>> centre, and, for example, on parts of the Eccles route.
>>>
>> Trams are not a class of traffic to which the normal speed limit signs
>> apply; they are not mechanically propelled vehicles "intended or
>> adapted" for road use :-
>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tram-motor-vehicle-daniel-rothel
>>
>> The standard round signs also thus do not apply to e.g. pedal cycles
>> or horse/horse-drawn traffic. Trams have their own diamond-shaped
>> signs (in KPH not MPH) which can be used on or off a highway.
>> https://uktram.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/TGN32-Signing_of_Tramways_2.pdf
>> That guidance says that a tramway speed limit _should_ not be higher
>> than that for other traffic. There will also presumably be a
>> system-wide absolute limit which could be set lower than 30mph (e.g.
>> 45kph). A tramway could also feasibly have a higher (but maybe not by
>> much) speed limit with e.g. central reserved track at a crossroads.
>>
>
>The Croydon trams used to run at up to 80 km/h (now reduced), and I think
>other UK trams are similar(eg, NET, Metrolink 80 km/h, Sheffield 90 km/h).
>
Wonkypaedia and others indicate 70kph/43mph as a general limit for
Croydon which would be a near match to many 4-lane 40mph
dual-carriageways if there are any on the system.