In message <t65j68$m9t$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:11:20 on Thu, 19 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:

>>> I can understand the motivation to make it explicit to passengers
>>>from Kent when tickets are and are not valid on HS1, because
>>>passengers are stupid.

>> No they aren't. If you look at a map like "London Connections"
>>there's no hint that changing at Stratford (onto HS1) as a short-cut
>>to Kings Cross area, or beyond, wouldn't be allowed. What it needs is
>>some kind of concept like a diode, that says you can get on/off there
>>if the remainder of your trip is eastbound, but only westbound if
>>you'd paid a supplement.
>
>I'm looking at a map. I'm not clear on what route from Kent to London
>might conceivably involve a change at Stratford.

Sorry, I meant "Essex". Can you try Romford to Hendon, and see if that's
valid via HS1. Once we've got that sorted, I can process the rest of
your response.

[For the avoidance of doubt, I'm expecting it be an "Any Permitted"
ticket, not valid on HS1, but failing to rub people's noses in it with
text of "Not via HS1/Not via Stratford International; alternatively not
confirming it is valid, by saying "Plus High Speed"]
--
Roland Perry

In message <t65j68$m9t$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:11:20 on Thu, 19 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:

>>>Automatic ticket barriers able to read data stored on tickets and do
>>>computer logic stuff with that data do not have that excuse.

>> The problems arise because of the very limited amount of data stored
>>on the magstripe.
>
>You need origin, destination, route, peak/off peak and adult/child. All
>that data is already on the magstripe. Everythign else is just looking
>up a database of the routing guide.

But the gates have neither the processing power, nor the access to such
databases. They are standalone and pretty dumb. I expect their design is
from the 1990's.
--
Roland Perry

On 2022-05-19 15:47:34 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t65j68$m9t$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:11:20 on Thu, 19 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>
>>>> I can understand the motivation to make it explicit to passengers from
>>>> Kent when tickets are and are not valid on HS1, because passengers are
>>>> stupid.
>
>>> No they aren't. If you look at a map like "London Connections" there's
>>> no hint that changing at Stratford (onto HS1) as a short-cut to Kings
>>> Cross area, or beyond, wouldn't be allowed. What it needs is some kind
>>> of concept like a diode, that says you can get on/off there if the
>>> remainder of your trip is eastbound, but only westbound if you'd paid a
>>> supplement.
>>
>> I'm looking at a map. I'm not clear on what route from Kent to London
>> might conceivably involve a change at Stratford.
>
> Sorry, I meant "Essex". Can you try Romford to Hendon, and see if
> that's valid via HS1. Once we've got that sorted, I can process the
> rest of your response.

Routing point for Hendon is West Hampstead. West Hampstead to London is
valid on MI (midland mainline).
Romford group to London is valid on CO (GEML to Liverpool St).

There is therefore only one single permitted route: via Liverpool St
and Thameslink (Farringdon or St Pancras).

> [For the avoidance of doubt, I'm expecting it be an "Any Permitted"
> ticket, not valid on HS1, but failing to rub people's noses in it with
> text of "Not via HS1/Not via Stratford International; alternatively not
> confirming it is valid, by saying "Plus High Speed"]

"Any Permitted" or other routing text is only given if there is more
than one permitted route. As there is only one permitted route, the
route is "+" (ie matlese cross for the cross-London transfer).

Robin

In message <t65s7c$hjk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:32 on Thu, 19 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-05-19 15:47:34 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t65j68$m9t$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:11:20 on Thu, 19 May
>>2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> I can understand the motivation to make it explicit to passengers
>>>>>from Kent when tickets are and are not valid on HS1, because
>>>>>passengers are stupid.
>>
>>>> No they aren't. If you look at a map like "London Connections"
>>>>there's no hint that changing at Stratford (onto HS1) as a
>>>>short-cut to Kings Cross area, or beyond, wouldn't be allowed.
>>>>What it needs is some kind of concept like a diode, that says you
>>>>can get on/off there if the remainder of your trip is eastbound,
>>>>but only westbound if you'd paid a supplement.

>>> I'm looking at a map. I'm not clear on what route from Kent to
>>>London might conceivably involve a change at Stratford.

>> Sorry, I meant "Essex". Can you try Romford to Hendon, and see if
>>that's valid via HS1. Once we've got that sorted, I can process the
>>rest of your response.
>
>Routing point for Hendon is West Hampstead. West Hampstead to London is
>valid on MI (midland mainline).
>Romford group to London is valid on CO (GEML to Liverpool St).
>
>There is therefore only one single permitted route: via Liverpool St
>and Thameslink (Farringdon or St Pancras).

Thanks, that's what I suspected.

>> [For the avoidance of doubt, I'm expecting it be an "Any Permitted"
>> ticket, not valid on HS1, but failing to rub people's noses in it with
>> text of "Not via HS1/Not via Stratford International; alternatively not
>> confirming it is valid, by saying "Plus High Speed"]
>
>"Any Permitted" or other routing text is only given if there is more
>than one permitted route.

They've obviously been messing with the routing nomenclature, and even
validity. I see for example that "via" Ely (as a route for cheaper
tickets from the south Cambs area to Peterborough) has been replaced by
"GTNRTHRN&THMLINK" which if strictly true means only via Hitchin.

The only other ticket (at about twice the price) is "NOT VIA LONDON" and
is clearly intended to facilitate trips via Stevenage (and LNER),
although they should be valid via Ely too, not leas because that's the
shortest (or does that rule only apply to "Any Permitted" tickets?)

>As there is only one permitted route, the route is "+" (ie matlese
>cross for the cross-London transfer).

Anyway, Essex folk would probably benefit from theirs saying "Not HS1",
just so they don't waste their time trying it. And grippers might be
looking for "Plus High Speed", and seeing it missing, jumping to the
conclusion (correct in this instance) it's not valid for exit at StP.

Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>
> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).

What about the people who actually want to travel from Stratford to St
Pancras and are willing to pay the appropriate fare (£7.30) to do so?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 2022-05-24 09:05:16 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t65s7c$hjk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:32 on Thu, 19 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-05-19 15:47:34 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t65j68$m9t$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:11:20 on Thu, 19 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> I can understand the motivation to make it explicit to passengers from
>>>>>> Kent when tickets are and are not valid on HS1, because passengers are
>>>>>> stupid.
>>>
>>>>> No they aren't. If you look at a map like "London Connections" there's
>>>>> no hint that changing at Stratford (onto HS1) as a short-cut to Kings
>>>>> Cross area, or beyond, wouldn't be allowed. What it needs is some kind
>>>>> of concept like a diode, that says you can get on/off there if the
>>>>> remainder of your trip is eastbound, but only westbound if you'd paid a
>>>>> supplement.
>
>>>> I'm looking at a map. I'm not clear on what route from Kent to London
>>>> might conceivably involve a change at Stratford.
>
>>> Sorry, I meant "Essex". Can you try Romford to Hendon, and see if
>>> that's valid via HS1. Once we've got that sorted, I can process the
>>> rest of your response.
>>
>> Routing point for Hendon is West Hampstead. West Hampstead to London is
>> valid on MI (midland mainline).
>> Romford group to London is valid on CO (GEML to Liverpool St).
>>
>> There is therefore only one single permitted route: via Liverpool St
>> and Thameslink (Farringdon or St Pancras).
>
> Thanks, that's what I suspected.
>
>>> [For the avoidance of doubt, I'm expecting it be an "Any Permitted"
>>> ticket, not valid on HS1, but failing to rub people's noses in it with
>>> text of "Not via HS1/Not via Stratford International; alternatively not
>>> confirming it is valid, by saying "Plus High Speed"]
>>
>> "Any Permitted" or other routing text is only given if there is more
>> than one permitted route.
>
> They've obviously been messing with the routing nomenclature, and even
> validity. I see for example that "via" Ely (as a route for cheaper
> tickets from the south Cambs area to Peterborough) has been replaced by
> "GTNRTHRN&THMLINK" which if strictly true means only via Hitchin.
>
> The only other ticket (at about twice the price) is "NOT VIA LONDON"
> and is clearly intended to facilitate trips via Stevenage (and LNER),
> although they should be valid via Ely too, not leas because that's the
> shortest (or does that rule only apply to "Any Permitted" tickets?)
>
>> As there is only one permitted route, the route is "+" (ie matlese
>> cross for the cross-London transfer).
>
> Anyway, Essex folk would probably benefit from theirs saying "Not HS1",
> just so they don't waste their time trying it. And grippers might be
> looking for "Plus High Speed", and seeing it missing, jumping to the
> conclusion (correct in this instance) it's not valid for exit at StP.

On the occasions I have used tickets between Kent and "beyond Londond"
with routing descriptions such as "Any Permitted" or "Via [somewhere
irrelevant to HS1]", I have never had problems with the on-train staff,
only with the gateline staff at St Pancras. I have made journeys
between places up the GEML into Kent involving a (legitimate) change
via Stratford and Stratford International on such a ticket, and also
found it trouble free.

> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).

If Stratford International were made pick up/set down only, it would be
impossible to use it for a break of journey to access Stratford or the
Docklands. For example there are significant shopping and leisure
facilities right by the station that a commuter from Kent to central
London with a season ticket valid on HS1 might want to make use of, of
people might want to stop off en route to somewhere with a ticket that
permits a break of journey. You can also buy tickets to/from Stratford
International that involve using HS1 to St Pancras either on its own or
as part of longer journeys.

Robin

In message <t6igpe$fu4$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:06 on Tue, 24 May
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>
>What about the people who actually want to travel from Stratford to St
>Pancras and are willing to pay the appropriate fare (£7.30) to do so?

You could say the same for travellers from Stevenage. It's a blunt
instrument, but one which is at least easy for the public to relate to.

Frankly, I think they should have just swallowed their pride, and let
people use it without a supplement.
--
Roland Perry

On 2022-05-24 16:24:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t6igpe$fu4$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:06 on Tue, 24 May
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>>
>> What about the people who actually want to travel from Stratford to St
>> Pancras and are willing to pay the appropriate fare (£7.30) to do so?
>
> You could say the same for travellers from Stevenage.

Except that there are lots of trains, in both (all three) directions at
Stevenage that will both pick up and drop off passengers, including
trains that run non-stop between Stevenage and Finsbury Park.
Stratford International is not just a separate set of platforms for
Stratford, they are different stations on unconnected lines, and if the
HS services are pick-up/set-down only, that would eliminate the only
service in one direction from that station.

> It's a blunt instrument, but one which is at least easy for the public
> to relate to.
>
> Frankly, I think they should have just swallowed their pride, and let
> people use it without a supplement.

In terms of ticketing rules, that's what they did. As you often point
out, fares on railways in the UK are market based not milage based.
Because the new line offers significant journey time reductions, the
fares for journeys that benefit significantly from the time savings
were increased. In order to appease the locals, a new route-restricted
set of tickets for some of the journeys affected were introduced,
priced at the pre-increase levels, that involved a route restriction
that blocks the faster route. This sort of thing is used on many places
on the network where a slower but cheaper route is available in
addition to the "Any Permitted" fare.

What is unusual is that tickets affected by this change to one specific
destination (London Terminals) do not get marked in the conventional
way with "Any Permitted" for tickets that are valid on any permitted
route, but instead get the non-standard route description of "Plus High
Speed", while all the other tickets valid on this new route retain the
conventional route designations like "Any Permitted". It is also
unusual that it is possible to buy a separate ticket that allows you to
upgrade a route-restricted ticket to be valid on any permitted route,
something that is not generally done in other locations.

Robin

In message <t6it28$h5j$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:19:36 on Tue, 24 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-05-24 09:05:16 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t65s7c$hjk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:32 on Thu, 19 May
>>2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2022-05-19 15:47:34 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <t65j68$m9t$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:11:20 on Thu, 19 May
>>>>2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> I can understand the motivation to make it explicit to
>>>>>>>passengers from Kent when tickets are and are not valid on
>>>>>>>HS1, because passengers are stupid.
>>>>
>>>>>> No they aren't. If you look at a map like "London Connections"
>>>>>>there's no hint that changing at Stratford (onto HS1) as a
>>>>>>short-cut to Kings Cross area, or beyond, wouldn't be allowed.
>>>>>>What it needs is some kind of concept like a diode, that says
>>>>>>you can get on/off there if the remainder of your trip is
>>>>>>eastbound, but only westbound if you'd paid a supplement.
>>
>>>>> I'm looking at a map. I'm not clear on what route from Kent to
>>>>>London might conceivably involve a change at Stratford.
>>
>>>> Sorry, I meant "Essex". Can you try Romford to Hendon, and see if
>>>>that's valid via HS1. Once we've got that sorted, I can process the
>>>>rest of your response.
>>> Routing point for Hendon is West Hampstead. West Hampstead to
>>>London is valid on MI (midland mainline).
>>> Romford group to London is valid on CO (GEML to Liverpool St).
>>> There is therefore only one single permitted route: via Liverpool
>>>St and Thameslink (Farringdon or St Pancras).
>> Thanks, that's what I suspected.
>>
>>>> [For the avoidance of doubt, I'm expecting it be an "Any Permitted"
>>>> ticket, not valid on HS1, but failing to rub people's noses in it with
>>>> text of "Not via HS1/Not via Stratford International; alternatively not
>>>> confirming it is valid, by saying "Plus High Speed"]

>>> "Any Permitted" or other routing text is only given if there is
>>>more than one permitted route.

>> They've obviously been messing with the routing nomenclature, and
>>even validity. I see for example that "via" Ely (as a route for
>>cheaper tickets from the south Cambs area to Peterborough) has been
>>replaced by "GTNRTHRN&THMLINK" which if strictly true means only via
>>Hitchin.

>> The only other ticket (at about twice the price) is "NOT VIA LONDON"
>>and is clearly intended to facilitate trips via Stevenage (and LNER),
>>although they should be valid via Ely too, not leas because that's the
>>shortest (or does that rule only apply to "Any Permitted" tickets?)
>>
>>> As there is only one permitted route, the route is "+" (ie matlese
>>>cross for the cross-London transfer).

>> Anyway, Essex folk would probably benefit from theirs saying "Not
>>HS1", just so they don't waste their time trying it. And grippers
>>might be looking for "Plus High Speed", and seeing it missing,
>>jumping to the conclusion (correct in this instance) it's not valid
>>for exit at StP.
>
>On the occasions I have used tickets between Kent and "beyond Londond"
>with routing descriptions such as "Any Permitted" or "Via [somewhere
>irrelevant to HS1]", I have never had problems with the on-train staff,
>only with the gateline staff at St Pancras. I have made journeys
>between places up the GEML into Kent involving a (legitimate) change
>via Stratford and Stratford International on such a ticket, and also
>found it trouble free.

Many of us who are ticketing/routing geeks don't have trouble. And as I
described earlier are completely unfazed when a barrier at Kings Cross
rejects [as it always does] our valid Off-Peak return to Cambridgeshire.

I always pick a barrier as close as possible to a member of staff, so I
can summon them over, efficiently. And then take no prisoners when they
try to say the barrier was corrct.[1]

But ordinary members of the public are different, and the proposals I've
been floating are to assist *them*.

[1] I've also spoken to travellers who having had the valid ticket
rejected, give up, and wait an hour for a later train.

>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>
>If Stratford International were made pick up/set down only, it would be
>impossible to use it for a break of journey to access Stratford or the
>Docklands. For example there are significant shopping and leisure
>facilities right by the station that a commuter from Kent to central
>London with a season ticket valid on HS1 might want to make use of,

Assuming those commuters wanted to break their journey home, rather than
*in* to work, how much they were inconvenienced would depend on the
extra delay caused by travelling outbound <Workplace> <Stratford
International avoiding HS1> compared to <Workplace> <St Pancras>
<Stratford International via HS1>. In any event I suspect the workplace
of many would be in the docklands.

Perhaps I have strange nightlife, but if I was commuting into Central
London from North Kent, I think the last thing I'd be doing is stopping
off to party/shop in Stratford, rather than going home to be with the
family, ahead of getting up at 6am the next day to rinse and repeat.

>of people might want to stop off en route to somewhere with a ticket
>that permits a break of journey. You can also buy tickets to/from
>Stratford International that involve using HS1 to St Pancras either on
>its own or as part of longer journeys.

Yes, there would be some collateral damage (none of the solutions is
perfect, and you appear to think the current state of play is
sub-optimal). Once again, comparing it with Stevenage, it's just hard
luck that people living around there couldn't (I think some restrictions
are now lifted) get a GNER service to Kings Cross (rather than use a
commuter service). The Stratford area has plenty of alternative commuter
services, including via Liverpool St by both tube and heavy rail.
--
Roland Perry

On 2022-05-25 05:33:36 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t6it28$h5j$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:19:36 on Tue, 24 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-05-24 09:05:16 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t65s7c$hjk$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:45:32 on Thu, 19 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2022-05-19 15:47:34 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t65j68$m9t$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:11:20 on Thu, 19 May
>>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can understand the motivation to make it explicit to passengers from
>>>>>>>> Kent when tickets are and are not valid on HS1, because passengers
>>>>>>>> are stupid.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> No they aren't. If you look at a map like "London Connections" there's
>>>>>>> no hint that changing at Stratford (onto HS1) as a short-cut to Kings
>>>>>>> Cross area, or beyond, wouldn't be allowed. What it needs is some
>>>>>>> kind of concept like a diode, that says you can get on/off there if
>>>>>>> the remainder of your trip is eastbound, but only westbound if you'd
>>>>>>> paid a supplement.
>>>
>>>>>> I'm looking at a map. I'm not clear on what route from Kent to London
>>>>>> might conceivably involve a change at Stratford.
>>>
>>>>> Sorry, I meant "Essex". Can you try Romford to Hendon, and see if
>>>>> that's valid via HS1. Once we've got that sorted, I can process the
>>>>> rest of your response.
>>>> Routing point for Hendon is West Hampstead. West Hampstead to London is
>>>> valid on MI (midland mainline).
>>>> Romford group to London is valid on CO (GEML to Liverpool St).
>>>> There is therefore only one single permitted route: via Liverpool St
>>>> and Thameslink (Farringdon or St Pancras).
>>> Thanks, that's what I suspected.
>>>
>>>>> [For the avoidance of doubt, I'm expecting it be an "Any Permitted"
>>>>> ticket, not valid on HS1, but failing to rub people's noses in it with
>>>>> text of "Not via HS1/Not via Stratford International; alternatively not
>>>>> confirming it is valid, by saying "Plus High Speed"]
>
>>>> "Any Permitted" or other routing text is only given if there is more
>>>> than one permitted route.
>
>>> They've obviously been messing with the routing nomenclature, and even
>>> validity. I see for example that "via" Ely (as a route for cheaper
>>> tickets from the south Cambs area to Peterborough) has been replaced by
>>> "GTNRTHRN&THMLINK" which if strictly true means only via Hitchin.
>
>>> The only other ticket (at about twice the price) is "NOT VIA LONDON"
>>> and is clearly intended to facilitate trips via Stevenage (and LNER),
>>> although they should be valid via Ely too, not leas because that's the
>>> shortest (or does that rule only apply to "Any Permitted" tickets?)
>>>
>>>> As there is only one permitted route, the route is "+" (ie matlese
>>>> cross for the cross-London transfer).
>
>>> Anyway, Essex folk would probably benefit from theirs saying "Not HS1",
>>> just so they don't waste their time trying it. And grippers might be
>>> looking for "Plus High Speed", and seeing it missing, jumping to the
>>> conclusion (correct in this instance) it's not valid for exit at StP.
>>
>> On the occasions I have used tickets between Kent and "beyond Londond"
>> with routing descriptions such as "Any Permitted" or "Via [somewhere
>> irrelevant to HS1]", I have never had problems with the on-train staff,
>> only with the gateline staff at St Pancras. I have made journeys
>> between places up the GEML into Kent involving a (legitimate) change
>> via Stratford and Stratford International on such a ticket, and also
>> found it trouble free.
>
> Many of us who are ticketing/routing geeks don't have trouble. And as I
> described earlier are completely unfazed when a barrier at Kings Cross
> rejects [as it always does] our valid Off-Peak return to Cambridgeshire.

By "never had problems with on train staff" I mean the gripper looked
at my ticket, made a mark on it, and carried on down the carriage
without comment. I'm not sure how being a ticketing/routing geek
rather than a "normal" would affect that experience.

> I always pick a barrier as close as possible to a member of staff, so I
> can summon them over, efficiently. And then take no prisoners when they
> try to say the barrier was corrct.[1]
>
> But ordinary members of the public are different, and the proposals
> I've been floating are to assist *them*.
>
> [1] I've also spoken to travellers who having had the valid ticket
> rejected, give up, and wait an hour for a later train.

Which is the problem where we came in. Not only are the gates rejecting
actual valid tickets, but the gateline staff are also stating that
valid tickets are not valid. In that situation you are looking at a
passenger turnign up at St P, being told their ticket is invalid, and
making a half hour schlep across London and taking a train that takes
45+ minutes longer to complete their journey. The job of gateline
staff is to be able to identify tickets that are valid but rejected by
the gates (for whatever reason) and let people through. The staff are,
it would appear, being trained to explicity not do this.

>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>>
>> If Stratford International were made pick up/set down only, it would be
>> impossible to use it for a break of journey to access Stratford or the
>> Docklands. For example there are significant shopping and leisure
>> facilities right by the station that a commuter from Kent to central
>> London with a season ticket valid on HS1 might want to make use of,
>
> Assuming those commuters wanted to break their journey home, rather
> than *in* to work, how much they were inconvenienced would depend on
> the extra delay caused by travelling outbound <Workplace> <Stratford
> International avoiding HS1> compared to <Workplace> <St Pancras>
> <Stratford International via HS1>. In any event I suspect the workplace
> of many would be in the docklands.

If your workplace is in the West End, at least pre-Crossrail, getting
to docklands via HS1 is significantly faster and less prone to
overcrowding than the alternative of Central or Circle to Liverpool St.

> Perhaps I have strange nightlife, but if I was commuting into Central
> London from North Kent, I think the last thing I'd be doing is stopping
> off to party/shop in Stratford, rather than going home to be with the
> family, ahead of getting up at 6am the next day to rinse and repeat.

The Westfield shopping centre has a lot of large (ie large range) and
specialist shops that aren't commonly found on the average high street.
If your commute takes you through Stratford every day, taking half an
hour to stop buy at the shops there could save something like a whole
afternoon on a weekend day driving to somewhere like Bluewater. If it
were me, I know which choice I'd make.

>> of people might want to stop off en route to somewhere with a ticket
>> that permits a break of journey. You can also buy tickets to/from
>> Stratford International that involve using HS1 to St Pancras either on
>> its own or as part of longer journeys.
>
> Yes, there would be some collateral damage (none of the solutions is
> perfect, and you appear to think the current state of play is
> sub-optimal). Once again, comparing it with Stevenage, it's just hard
> luck that people living around there couldn't (I think some
> restrictions are now lifted) get a GNER service to Kings Cross (rather
> than use a commuter service). The Stratford area has plenty of
> alternative commuter services, including via Liverpool St by both tube
> and heavy rail.

Stevenage is hardly comparable. If you want to get from Stevenage to
King's Cross, there are 4tph that run fast to Finsbury Park, then next
stop St Pancras. If you want to get from Stratford International to
King's Cross, if you can't take the direct train, it's DLR to Stratford
classic, train to Liverpool St, several stops on the Circle/Met/H&C to
Kings Cross St Pancras.

On 25/05/2022 06:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t6it28$h5j$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:19:36 on Tue, 24 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-05-24 09:05:16 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>>
>> If Stratford International were made pick up/set down only, it would
>> be impossible to use it for a break of journey to access Stratford or
>> the Docklands. For example there are significant shopping and leisure
>> facilities right by the station that a commuter from Kent to central
>> London with a season ticket valid on HS1 might want to make use of,
>
> Assuming those commuters wanted to break their journey home, rather than
> *in* to work, how much they were inconvenienced would depend on the
> extra delay caused by travelling outbound <Workplace> <Stratford
> International avoiding HS1> compared to <Workplace> <St Pancras>
> <Stratford International via HS1>. In any event I suspect the workplace
> of many would be in the docklands.
>
> Perhaps I have strange nightlife, but if I was commuting into Central
> London from North Kent, I think the last thing I'd be doing is stopping
> off to party/shop in Stratford, rather than going home to be with the
> family, ahead of getting up at 6am the next day to rinse and repeat.

It's exactly what I did when I worked in central London, though I did
have a 9am start. I was single, my parents were hundreds of miles away,
and part of my social life was a pint with colleagues after work. We
picked a pub near where we changed from bus/tube to mainline train, so
we could drink up five minutes before our train left.

In message <t6kva7$53b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:10:15 on Wed, 25 May
2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 25/05/2022 06:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t6it28$h5j$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:19:36 on Tue, 24 May
>>2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2022-05-24 09:05:16 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>>>Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>>>Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>>>
>>> If Stratford International were made pick up/set down only, it would
>>>be impossible to use it for a break of journey to access Stratford or
>>>the Docklands. For example there are significant shopping and leisure
>>>facilities right by the station that a commuter from Kent to central
>>>London with a season ticket valid on HS1 might want to make use of,

>> Assuming those commuters wanted to break their journey home, rather
>>than *in* to work, how much they were inconvenienced would depend on
>>the extra delay caused by travelling outbound <Workplace> <Stratford
>>International avoiding HS1> compared to <Workplace> <St Pancras>
>><Stratford International via HS1>. In any event I suspect the
>>workplace of many would be in the docklands.

>> Perhaps I have strange nightlife, but if I was commuting into
>>Central London from North Kent, I think the last thing I'd be doing
>>is stopping off to party/shop in Stratford, rather than going home to
>>be with the family, ahead of getting up at 6am the next day to rinse
>>and repeat.
>
>It's exactly what I did when I worked in central London, though I did
>have a 9am start. I was single, my parents were hundreds of miles away,
>and part of my social life was a pint with colleagues after work. We
>picked a pub near where we changed from bus/tube to mainline train, so
>we could drink up five minutes before our train left.

It's obviously not a thing that's completely unknown (several places
I've worked people stopped on the way home for a drink with colleagues,
but usually Fridays only, and at a pub they'd walk to from work); but
how many homegoers will be getting the HS1 from St Pancras, then getting
out to have a pint with colleagues (presumably the subset of colleagues
who were on that same train, rather than a bigger selection back at St
Pancras, some of whom might then be patronising Thameslink, Great
Northern, LNER, EMR etc), at Stratford, before resuming their HS1 trip
to north Kent?

Yes, I realise that Stratford isn't where someone with your after-work
rountine would be changing from bus/tube to heavy rail, but that simply
means that had you been an HS1 user, you'd not be needing to get out and
back in, at Stratford anyway. So a "pickup only" stop at Stratford
wouldn't inconvenience you.
--
Roland Perry

On 2022-05-26 09:30:10 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t6kva7$53b$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:10:15 on Wed, 25 May
> 2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>> On 25/05/2022 06:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t6it28$h5j$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:19:36 on Tue, 24 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2022-05-24 09:05:16 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>>>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>>>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>>>>
>>>> If Stratford International were made pick up/set down only, it would be
>>>> impossible to use it for a break of journey to access Stratford or the
>>>> Docklands. For example there are significant shopping and leisure
>>>> facilities right by the station that a commuter from Kent to central
>>>> London with a season ticket valid on HS1 might want to make use of,
>
>>> Assuming those commuters wanted to break their journey home, rather
>>> than *in* to work, how much they were inconvenienced would depend on
>>> the extra delay caused by travelling outbound <Workplace> <Stratford
>>> International avoiding HS1> compared to <Workplace> <St Pancras>
>>> <Stratford International via HS1>. In any event I suspect the workplace
>>> of many would be in the docklands.
>
>>> Perhaps I have strange nightlife, but if I was commuting into Central
>>> London from North Kent, I think the last thing I'd be doing is stopping
>>> off to party/shop in Stratford, rather than going home to be with the
>>> family, ahead of getting up at 6am the next day to rinse and repeat.
>>
>> It's exactly what I did when I worked in central London, though I did
>> have a 9am start. I was single, my parents were hundreds of miles away,
>> and part of my social life was a pint with colleagues after work. We
>> picked a pub near where we changed from bus/tube to mainline train, so
>> we could drink up five minutes before our train left.
>
> It's obviously not a thing that's completely unknown (several places
> I've worked people stopped on the way home for a drink with colleagues,
> but usually Fridays only, and at a pub they'd walk to from work); but
> how many homegoers will be getting the HS1 from St Pancras, then
> getting out to have a pint with colleagues (presumably the subset of
> colleagues who were on that same train, rather than a bigger selection
> back at St Pancras, some of whom might then be patronising Thameslink,
> Great Northern, LNER, EMR etc), at Stratford, before resuming their HS1
> trip to north Kent?

People don't always go for after-work drinks with people who work at
the same location. It might be that two friends work separately, one in
the Docklands and the other in the West End, and Stratford forms a
convenient meeting point fo a catch-up social.

> Yes, I realise that Stratford isn't where someone with your after-work
> rountine would be changing from bus/tube to heavy rail, but that simply
> means that had you been an HS1 user, you'd not be needing to get out
> and back in, at Stratford anyway. So a "pickup only" stop at Stratford
> wouldn't inconvenience you.

If I lived in Kent, worked in the West End and wanted to meet a friend
who lives in Essex and works in the Docklands, being able to break my
HS1 journey home at Stratford International for a catch up over a pint
would be significantly inconvenienced if it was not permitted for me to
get a train from St Pancras to Stratford International due to it being
pick-up only.

So having inconvenienced me, what is the problem that exists today that
making this change is helping with? It doesn't make any impact on the
way tickets between Kent and London are labelled, it doesn't affect the
use of HS1 for passengers between Essex and London, because it is
already not permitted for those journeys. Who benefits from creating
this inconvenience?

Robin

In message <t6j5f6$kn9$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:43:02 on Tue, 24 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-05-24 16:24:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t6igpe$fu4$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:06 on Tue, 24 May
>>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).

>>> What about the people who actually want to travel from Stratford to
>>>St Pancras and are willing to pay the appropriate fare (£7.30) to do
>>>so?

>> You could say the same for travellers from Stevenage.
>
>Except that there are lots of trains, in both (all three) directions at
>Stevenage that will both pick up and drop off passengers, including
>trains that run non-stop between Stevenage and Finsbury Park.

That doesn't address the issue of people prepared to pay more to use the
posh whatever-GNER-is-called-this-week service.

>Stratford International is not just a separate set of platforms for
>Stratford, they are different stations on unconnected lines, and if the
>HS services are pick-up/set-down only, that would eliminate the only
>service in one direction from that station.

Have you been there? It's out on a limb, and Stratford Station itself
(with far more trains than Stevenage's outer suburbans) is by far the
better transporthub.

>> It's a blunt instrument, but one which is at least easy for the
>>public to relate to.

>> Frankly, I think they should have just swallowed their pride, and
>>let people use it without a supplement.
>
>In terms of ticketing rules, that's what they did.

No they didn't. Had they done so it would be as acceptable a place to
use an Oyster to get to St Pancras, as any other station in the
vicinity.

>As you often point out, fares on railways in the UK are market based
>not milage based.

Which is why their pride meant they charged supplements.

>Because the new line offers significant journey time reductions, the
>fares for journeys that benefit significantly from the time savings
>were increased.

OK, so are you in favour of people using the Elizabeth Line to need to
buy specially more-expensive tickets (from Stratford to Liverpool St
even, let alone to TCR, Paddington etc) for the same reason?

>In order to appease the locals, a new route-restricted set of tickets
>for some of the journeys affected were introduced, priced at the
>pre-increase levels, that involved a route restriction that blocks the
>faster route. This sort of thing is used on many places on the network
>where a slower but cheaper route is available in addition to the "Any
>Permitted" fare.
>
>What is unusual is that tickets affected by this change to one specific
>destination (London Terminals) do not get marked in the conventional
>way with "Any Permitted" for tickets that are valid on any permitted
>route, but instead get the non-standard route description of "Plus High
>Speed", while all the other tickets valid on this new route retain the
>conventional route designations like "Any Permitted".

Revisiting what was I think our original complaint - is there any wonder
that staff are trained to look for valid "Plus High Speed" tickets, and
challenge the generally invalid "Any Permitted" ones?

>It is also unusual that it is possible to buy a separate ticket that
>allows you to upgrade a route-restricted ticket to be valid on any
>permitted route,

Are you using the expression 'any permitted' there as a term of art as
in a ticket branded "Any Permitted", or something else?

>something that is not generally done in other locations.

Route-excess is a long standing concept.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6j5f6$kn9$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:43:02 on Tue, 24 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-05-24 16:24:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t6igpe$fu4$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:06 on Tue, 24 May
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>>>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>>>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>
>>>> What about the people who actually want to travel from Stratford to
>>>> St Pancras and are willing to pay the appropriate fare (£7.30) to do
>>>> so?
>
>>> You could say the same for travellers from Stevenage.
>>
>> Except that there are lots of trains, in both (all three) directions at
>> Stevenage that will both pick up and drop off passengers, including
>> trains that run non-stop between Stevenage and Finsbury Park.
>
> That doesn't address the issue of people prepared to pay more to use the
> posh whatever-GNER-is-called-this-week service.
>
>> Stratford International is not just a separate set of platforms for
>> Stratford, they are different stations on unconnected lines, and if the
>> HS services are pick-up/set-down only, that would eliminate the only
>> service in one direction from that station.
>
> Have you been there? It's out on a limb, and Stratford Station itself
> (with far more trains than Stevenage's outer suburbans) is by far the
> better transporthub.
>

It's right next to one of the entrances to the huge shopping and leisure
complex.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 2022-05-29 05:05:58 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t6j5f6$kn9$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:43:02 on Tue, 24 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-05-24 16:24:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t6igpe$fu4$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:06 on Tue, 24 May
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>>>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>>>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>
> >>> What about the people who actually want to travel from Stratford
> to >>>St Pancras and are willing to pay the appropriate fare (£7.30)
> to do >>>so?
>
>>> You could say the same for travellers from Stevenage.
>>
>> Except that there are lots of trains, in both (all three) directions at
>> Stevenage that will both pick up and drop off passengers, including
>> trains that run non-stop between Stevenage and Finsbury Park.
>
> That doesn't address the issue of people prepared to pay more to use
> the posh whatever-GNER-is-called-this-week service.
>
>> Stratford International is not just a separate set of platforms for
>> Stratford, they are different stations on unconnected lines, and if the
>> HS services are pick-up/set-down only, that would eliminate the only
>> service in one direction from that station.
>
> Have you been there? It's out on a limb, and Stratford Station itself
> (with far more trains than Stevenage's outer suburbans) is by far the
> better transporthub.

Many times. It's right next to the Westfield centre, a major shopping
centre that people might very well want to visit. Google suggests
Stratford to Stratford International is a half mile walk. They are so
far apart that a DLR line exists to get people between them. Whether
Stratford or Stratford International is the more useful station very
much depends where you want to go. If your destination is up the MML,
or ECML, or in Kent, Stratford (not International) is very much the
less useful of the two.

>>> It's a blunt instrument, but one which is at least easy for the public
>>> to relate to.
>
>>> Frankly, I think they should have just swallowed their pride, and let
>>> people use it without a supplement.
>>
>> In terms of ticketing rules, that's what they did.
>
> No they didn't. Had they done so it would be as acceptable a place to
> use an Oyster to get to St Pancras, as any other station in the
> vicinity.

You can use Oyster between Stratford International and St Pancras.

>> As you often point out, fares on railways in the UK are market based
>> not milage based.
>
> Which is why their pride meant they charged supplements.
>
>> Because the new line offers significant journey time reductions, the
>> fares for journeys that benefit significantly from the time savings
>> were increased.
>
> OK, so are you in favour of people using the Elizabeth Line to need to
> buy specially more-expensive tickets (from Stratford to Liverpool St
> even, let alone to TCR, Paddington etc) for the same reason?

No.

>> In order to appease the locals, a new route-restricted set of tickets
>> for some of the journeys affected were introduced, priced at the
>> pre-increase levels, that involved a route restriction that blocks the
>> faster route. This sort of thing is used on many places on the network
>> where a slower but cheaper route is available in addition to the "Any
>> Permitted" fare.
>>
>> What is unusual is that tickets affected by this change to one specific
>> destination (London Terminals) do not get marked in the conventional
>> way with "Any Permitted" for tickets that are valid on any permitted
>> route, but instead get the non-standard route description of "Plus High
>> Speed", while all the other tickets valid on this new route retain the
>> conventional route designations like "Any Permitted".
>
> Revisiting what was I think our original complaint - is there any
> wonder that staff are trained to look for valid "Plus High Speed"
> tickets, and challenge the generally invalid "Any Permitted" ones?

"Any Permitted" are not generally invalid. They are in fact, always
valid (for stations for which HS1 is a permitted route according to the
routing guide, which is basically all of Kent east of the Medway, plus
a few other locations).

>> It is also unusual that it is possible to buy a separate ticket that
>> allows you to upgrade a route-restricted ticket to be valid on any
>> permitted route,
>
> Are you using the expression 'any permitted' there as a term of art as
> in a ticket branded "Any Permitted", or something else?

I'm using it as it is used by the routing guide. A ticket marked "Any
Permitted" is valid on any route between the origin and destination
station as defined in the routing guide. For stations in Kent east of
the Medway, plus a few others, HS1 is in the routing guide as a
"permitted route" to get to London, as I quoted upthread with
references to the maps, HS and HK.

>> something that is not generally done in other locations.
>
> Route-excess is a long standing concept.

Route excess is a different thing. It covers taking a train over a
route that is not a permitted route according to the routing guide. If
you are on a route that is permitted, with a ticket that is marked "any
permitted", you can take any normal service train on that route. If
you have a counter example, I'd like to hear it.

Robin

In message <t6v83q$abm$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:41:47 on Sun, 29 May
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6j5f6$kn9$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:43:02 on Tue, 24 May
>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2022-05-24 16:24:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <t6igpe$fu4$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:06 on Tue, 24 May
>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>>>>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>>>>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>>
>>>>> What about the people who actually want to travel from Stratford to
>>>>> St Pancras and are willing to pay the appropriate fare (£7.30) to do
>>>>> so?
>>
>>>> You could say the same for travellers from Stevenage.
>>>
>>> Except that there are lots of trains, in both (all three) directions at
>>> Stevenage that will both pick up and drop off passengers, including
>>> trains that run non-stop between Stevenage and Finsbury Park.
>>
>> That doesn't address the issue of people prepared to pay more to use the
>> posh whatever-GNER-is-called-this-week service.
>>
>>> Stratford International is not just a separate set of platforms for
>>> Stratford, they are different stations on unconnected lines, and if the
>>> HS services are pick-up/set-down only, that would eliminate the only
>>> service in one direction from that station.
>>
>> Have you been there? It's out on a limb, and Stratford Station itself
>> (with far more trains than Stevenage's outer suburbans) is by far the
>> better transporthub.
>
>It's right next to one of the entrances to the huge shopping and leisure
>complex.

And pretty much nothing else. Is that the only reason commuters on HS1
would want to break their journey home?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6v83q$abm$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:41:47 on Sun, 29 May
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6j5f6$kn9$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:43:02 on Tue, 24 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2022-05-24 16:24:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t6igpe$fu4$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:06 on Tue, 24 May
>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another thing the could have done for HS1 from the start is to
>>>>>>> Stevenage-ise it and make it "Set down only" for inbound trains at
>>>>>>> Stratford (and "Pick up Only" on the way back).
>>>
>>>>>> What about the people who actually want to travel from Stratford to
>>>>>> St Pancras and are willing to pay the appropriate fare (£7.30) to do
>>>>>> so?
>>>
>>>>> You could say the same for travellers from Stevenage.
>>>>
>>>> Except that there are lots of trains, in both (all three) directions at
>>>> Stevenage that will both pick up and drop off passengers, including
>>>> trains that run non-stop between Stevenage and Finsbury Park.
>>>
>>> That doesn't address the issue of people prepared to pay more to use the
>>> posh whatever-GNER-is-called-this-week service.
>>>
>>>> Stratford International is not just a separate set of platforms for
>>>> Stratford, they are different stations on unconnected lines, and if the
>>>> HS services are pick-up/set-down only, that would eliminate the only
>>>> service in one direction from that station.
>>>
>>> Have you been there? It's out on a limb, and Stratford Station itself
>>> (with far more trains than Stevenage's outer suburbans) is by far the
>>> better transporthub.
>>
>> It's right next to one of the entrances to the huge shopping and leisure
>> complex.
>
> And pretty much nothing else.

Lots of apartment blocks, a school, and a couple of parks.

> Is that the only reason commuters on HS1
> would want to break their journey home?

Probably not — Westfield is the big draw in that area.