Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>

In message <t65p8r$kl0$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:07 on Thu, 19 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map
>
><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2
>?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>

One to keep, given it has the short(ish) term discontinuities at
Paddington and Liverpool St. And will in any case need a new map
when Bond St opens.

Not yet available at the TfL site.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t65p8r$kl0$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:07 on Thu, 19 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2
>> ?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>
>
> One to keep, given it has the short(ish) term discontinuities at
> Paddington and Liverpool St. And will in any case need a new map
> when Bond St opens.

I must admit I find the inevitably complicated Paddington and Liverpool
Street 'solutions' a bit messy. [Not that I have a better idea.]

>
> Not yet available at the TfL site.

Not till Tuesday, presumably?

In message <t66967$t2q$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:26:47 on Thu, 19 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t65p8r$kl0$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:07 on Thu, 19 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map
>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2
>>> ?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>
>>
>> One to keep, given it has the short(ish) term discontinuities at
>> Paddington and Liverpool St. And will in any case need a new map
>> when Bond St opens.
>
>I must admit I find the inevitably complicated Paddington and Liverpool
>Street 'solutions' a bit messy. [Not that I have a better idea.]
>
>> Not yet available at the TfL site.
>
>Not till Tuesday, presumably?

Maybe that's their plan, but really the new one should be available a
little in advance (with suitable disclaimer). What if someone visits
their website next Monday hoping to plan a trip for next Wednesday?

I've seen the same effect when it comes to some TOCs and their new
timetables (although a few used to pre-announce them, before Meltdown
Monday, anyway).
--
Roland Perry

On 2022-05-19 20:26:47 +0000, Recliner said:

> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t65p8r$kl0$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:07 on Thu, 19 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map
>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2
>>> ?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>
>>
>> One to keep, given it has the short(ish) term discontinuities at
>> Paddington and Liverpool St. And will in any case need a new map
>> when Bond St opens.
>
> I must admit I find the inevitably complicated Paddington and Liverpool
> Street 'solutions' a bit messy. [Not that I have a better idea.]

Once the two sides of Elizabeth are joined at Paddington, it should be
OK, the current version is a bit messy, but will likely be temprorary.
LIverpool St is more awkward because the Crossrail station joins
LIverpool St to Moorgate, and it's hard to show the situation clearly
on the map. Euston is also a bit of a mess, mainly because it's hard to
thread the Victoria line through Warren St, Euston and Kings Cross St
Pancras in a way that makes sense for all three. I see that "walking
connections" have gained a more clear representation, I wonder if, when
the works at Bank are complete, they will add one for Bank to Cannon St.

>> Not yet available at the TfL site.
>
> Not till Tuesday, presumably?

There is some speculation on other social media fora that, as with the
early reopening of the City branch of the Northern line, there may be a
sneaky early opening of Crossrail. It's not that hard to push the new
map to the website at short notice, though.

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t66967$t2q$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:26:47 on Thu, 19 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t65p8r$kl0$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:07 on Thu, 19 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2
>>>> ?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>
>>>
>>> One to keep, given it has the short(ish) term discontinuities at
>>> Paddington and Liverpool St. And will in any case need a new map
>>> when Bond St opens.
>>
>> I must admit I find the inevitably complicated Paddington and Liverpool
>> Street 'solutions' a bit messy. [Not that I have a better idea.]
>>
>>> Not yet available at the TfL site.
>>
>> Not till Tuesday, presumably?
>
> Maybe that's their plan, but really the new one should be available a
> little in advance (with suitable disclaimer). What if someone visits
> their website next Monday hoping to plan a trip for next Wednesday?

The Journey Planner already knows about Liz, as does Citymapper. They both
know to use it on journeys next Wednesday, but not today.

>
> I've seen the same effect when it comes to some TOCs and their new
> timetables (although a few used to pre-announce them, before Meltdown
> Monday, anyway).

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-05-19 20:26:47 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t65p8r$kl0$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:07 on Thu, 19 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2
>>>> ?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>
>>>
>>> One to keep, given it has the short(ish) term discontinuities at
>>> Paddington and Liverpool St. And will in any case need a new map
>>> when Bond St opens.
>>
>> I must admit I find the inevitably complicated Paddington and Liverpool
>> Street 'solutions' a bit messy. [Not that I have a better idea.]
>
> Once the two sides of Elizabeth are joined at Paddington, it should be
> OK, the current version is a bit messy, but will likely be temprorary.
> LIverpool St is more awkward because the Crossrail station joins
> LIverpool St to Moorgate, and it's hard to show the situation clearly
> on the map. Euston is also a bit of a mess, mainly because it's hard to
> thread the Victoria line through Warren St, Euston and Kings Cross St
> Pancras in a way that makes sense for all three. I see that "walking
> connections" have gained a more clear representation, I wonder if, when
> the works at Bank are complete, they will add one for Bank to Cannon St.
>
>>> Not yet available at the TfL site.
>>
>> Not till Tuesday, presumably?
>
> There is some speculation on other social media fora that, as with the
> early reopening of the City branch of the Northern line, there may be a
> sneaky early opening of Crossrail. It's not that hard to push the new
> map to the website at short notice, though.

That would seriously annoy the perhaps thousands of customers who would
otherwise be paying peak fares to ride the first trains on Tuesday morning.
I can't see what TfL would gain from it, and it didn't do it with the
Battersea extension.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> That would seriously annoy the perhaps thousands of customers who would
> otherwise be paying peak fares to ride the first trains on Tuesday morning.
> I can't see what TfL would gain from it, and it didn't do it with the
> Battersea extension.

Presumably this is not like other soft-launches, where they just open the
gates on a Sunday afternoon in the hope of building load on the system
gradually so they can fix problems before the hordes descend. Crossrail has
been shadow-running for months and presumably they are confident that
everything works. Maybe not tested with a million passengers, but I expect
they have done tests with volumes of people* as well as with empty trains.
So not much to be gained from a soft launch.

Theo

* I took part in the testing for Eurostar at St Pancras before it opened in
2007. It was a fairly slick operation with a lot of people, so I presume
the same could be done.

On 2022-05-20 09:54:26 +0000, Theo said:

> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That would seriously annoy the perhaps thousands of customers who would
>> otherwise be paying peak fares to ride the first trains on Tuesday morning.
>> I can't see what TfL would gain from it, and it didn't do it with the
>> Battersea extension.
>
> Presumably this is not like other soft-launches, where they just open the
> gates on a Sunday afternoon in the hope of building load on the system
> gradually so they can fix problems before the hordes descend. Crossrail has
> been shadow-running for months and presumably they are confident that
> everything works. Maybe not tested with a million passengers, but I expect
> they have done tests with volumes of people* as well as with empty trains.
> So not much to be gained from a soft launch.

I would put it the other way: If they are already running a shadow
service, and they find that everything is sorted and ready to go by,
say, lunchtime on Monday, what do they lose by simply opening the gates?

> * I took part in the testing for Eurostar at St Pancras before it opened in
> 2007. It was a fairly slick operation with a lot of people, so I presume
> the same could be done.

Likewise, but when I went through at Easter, it was pandemonium, with
queues right up past the entrance to the Thameslink platforms.

Robin

On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:00:36 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-20 09:54:26 +0000, Theo said:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That would seriously annoy the perhaps thousands of customers who would
>>> otherwise be paying peak fares to ride the first trains on Tuesday morning.
>>> I can't see what TfL would gain from it, and it didn't do it with the
>>> Battersea extension.
>>
>> Presumably this is not like other soft-launches, where they just open the
>> gates on a Sunday afternoon in the hope of building load on the system
>> gradually so they can fix problems before the hordes descend. Crossrail has
>> been shadow-running for months and presumably they are confident that
>> everything works. Maybe not tested with a million passengers, but I expect
>> they have done tests with volumes of people* as well as with empty trains.
>> So not much to be gained from a soft launch.
>
>I would put it the other way: If they are already running a shadow
>service, and they find that everything is sorted and ready to go by,
>say, lunchtime on Monday, what do they lose by simply opening the gates?

They lose the ticket revenue from the thousands of people who would have turned up at 0630 on Tuesday, but won't bother
if it had quietly opened the previous day.

They've been running the 12 tph shadow service for months, with a number of large volunteer evacuation exercises under a
variety of scenarios. There have also been press visits, with videos published. The opening date was selected after they
were already satisfied that they could run the launch service reliably.

>
>> * I took part in the testing for Eurostar at St Pancras before it opened in
>> 2007. It was a fairly slick operation with a lot of people, so I presume
>> the same could be done.
>
>Likewise, but when I went through at Easter, it was pandemonium, with
>queues right up past the entrance to the Thameslink platforms.

Presumably while the staff checked vaccination certificates and PLFs (now only needed for Belgium)?

In message <6cx*uLDOy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 10:54:26 on Fri,
20 May 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That would seriously annoy the perhaps thousands of customers who would
>> otherwise be paying peak fares to ride the first trains on Tuesday morning.
>> I can't see what TfL would gain from it, and it didn't do it with the
>> Battersea extension.
>
>Presumably this is not like other soft-launches, where they just open the
>gates on a Sunday afternoon in the hope of building load on the system
>gradually so they can fix problems before the hordes descend.

Erm, fixing such problems is what they've been doing the last couple of
years (and why it's so late).

--
Roland Perry

On 2022-05-20 10:24:05 +0000, Recliner said:

> On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:00:36 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-05-20 09:54:26 +0000, Theo said:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> That would seriously annoy the perhaps thousands of customers who would
>>>> otherwise be paying peak fares to ride the first trains on Tuesday morning.
>>>> I can't see what TfL would gain from it, and it didn't do it with the
>>>> Battersea extension.
>>>
>>> Presumably this is not like other soft-launches, where they just open the
>>> gates on a Sunday afternoon in the hope of building load on the system
>>> gradually so they can fix problems before the hordes descend. Crossrail has
>>> been shadow-running for months and presumably they are confident that
>>> everything works. Maybe not tested with a million passengers, but I expect
>>> they have done tests with volumes of people* as well as with empty trains.
>>> So not much to be gained from a soft launch.
>>
>> I would put it the other way: If they are already running a shadow
>> service, and they find that everything is sorted and ready to go by,
>> say, lunchtime on Monday, what do they lose by simply opening the gates?
>
> They lose the ticket revenue from the thousands of people who would
> have turned up at 0630 on Tuesday, but won't bother
> if it had quietly opened the previous day.

I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway. I'm also not
sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make for the overal
revenue of the line. How many of them will be using travelcards or
already-capped Oyster cards? For such people, their loss will be
revenue neutral.

> They've been running the 12 tph shadow service for months, with a
> number of large volunteer evacuation exercises under a
> variety of scenarios. There have also been press visits, with videos
> published. The opening date was selected after they
> were already satisfied that they could run the launch service reliably.
>
>>
>>> * I took part in the testing for Eurostar at St Pancras before it opened in
>>> 2007. It was a fairly slick operation with a lot of people, so I presume
>>> the same could be done.
>>
>> Likewise, but when I went through at Easter, it was pandemonium, with
>> queues right up past the entrance to the Thameslink platforms.
>
> Presumably while the staff checked vaccination certificates and PLFs
> (now only needed for Belgium)?

When I went through there was a person beside the queue checkign
vaccination certificates as the people in the queue slowly shuffled
past, that check caused no actual delays.

On Fri, 20 May 2022 13:01:58 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-20 10:24:05 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 12:00:36 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-20 09:54:26 +0000, Theo said:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> That would seriously annoy the perhaps thousands of customers who would
>>>>> otherwise be paying peak fares to ride the first trains on Tuesday morning.
>>>>> I can't see what TfL would gain from it, and it didn't do it with the
>>>>> Battersea extension.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably this is not like other soft-launches, where they just open the
>>>> gates on a Sunday afternoon in the hope of building load on the system
>>>> gradually so they can fix problems before the hordes descend. Crossrail has
>>>> been shadow-running for months and presumably they are confident that
>>>> everything works. Maybe not tested with a million passengers, but I expect
>>>> they have done tests with volumes of people* as well as with empty trains.
>>>> So not much to be gained from a soft launch.
>>>
>>> I would put it the other way: If they are already running a shadow
>>> service, and they find that everything is sorted and ready to go by,
>>> say, lunchtime on Monday, what do they lose by simply opening the gates?
>>
>> They lose the ticket revenue from the thousands of people who would
>> have turned up at 0630 on Tuesday, but won't bother
>> if it had quietly opened the previous day.
>
>I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
>plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
>will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
>the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
>06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway. I'm also not
>sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make for the overal
>revenue of the line. How many of them will be using travelcards or
>already-capped Oyster cards? For such people, their loss will be
>revenue neutral.

For many, it won't be revenue neutral, so there would certainly be a loss of revenue, and annoyed passengers, for no
benefit. So why do it?

>
>> They've been running the 12 tph shadow service for months, with a
>> number of large volunteer evacuation exercises under a
>> variety of scenarios. There have also been press visits, with videos
>> published. The opening date was selected after they
>> were already satisfied that they could run the launch service reliably.
>>
>>>
>>>> * I took part in the testing for Eurostar at St Pancras before it opened in
>>>> 2007. It was a fairly slick operation with a lot of people, so I presume
>>>> the same could be done.
>>>
>>> Likewise, but when I went through at Easter, it was pandemonium, with
>>> queues right up past the entrance to the Thameslink platforms.
>>
>> Presumably while the staff checked vaccination certificates and PLFs
>> (now only needed for Belgium)?
>
>When I went through there was a person beside the queue checkign
>vaccination certificates as the people in the queue slowly shuffled
>past, that check caused no actual delays.

Perhaps the PLFs were being checked at the Ranch passport desks? I wouldn't have thought stamping the passports would
cause so much delay.

In message <t67sf6$qqv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:01:58 on Fri, 20 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:

>I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
>plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
>will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
>the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
>06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway.

As someone who made a special effort to be on the first [public] north
and southbound Thameslink trains through the core, I'd probably not have
bothered if I knew that they'd pulled the rug and weren't in fact the
very first.

>I'm also not sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make
>for the overal revenue of the line.

It's not a revenue thing, as much as a reputational one.

--
Roland Perry

In message <t67ggg$83s$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:37:52 on Fri, 20 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t66967$t2q$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:26:47 on Thu, 19 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t65p8r$kl0$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:07 on Thu, 19 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2
>>>>> ?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>
>>>>
>>>> One to keep, given it has the short(ish) term discontinuities at
>>>> Paddington and Liverpool St. And will in any case need a new map
>>>> when Bond St opens.
>>>
>>> I must admit I find the inevitably complicated Paddington and Liverpool
>>> Street 'solutions' a bit messy. [Not that I have a better idea.]
>>>
>>>> Not yet available at the TfL site.
>>>
>>> Not till Tuesday, presumably?
>>
>> Maybe that's their plan, but really the new one should be available a
>> little in advance (with suitable disclaimer). What if someone visits
>> their website next Monday hoping to plan a trip for next Wednesday?
>
>The Journey Planner already knows about Liz, as does Citymapper. They both
>know to use it on journeys next Wednesday, but not today.

It's nice they have multiple enquiry routes, but no so good only some
are future-proofed.
--
Roland Perry

On 2022-05-20 11:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t67sf6$qqv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:01:58 on Fri, 20 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>
>> I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
>> plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
>> will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
>> the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
>> 06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway.
>
> As someone who made a special effort to be on the first [public] north
> and southbound Thameslink trains through the core, I'd probably not
> have bothered if I knew that they'd pulled the rug and weren't in fact
> the very first.
>
>> I'm also not sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make
>> for the overal revenue of the line.
>
> It's not a revenue thing, as much as a reputational one.

They would likely get a bigger reputational boost from the mainstream
press reporting "Crossrail opened early".

Rboin

On Fri, 20 May 2022 13:28:33 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-20 11:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t67sf6$qqv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:01:58 on Fri, 20 May
>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>
>>> I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
>>> plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
>>> will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
>>> the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
>>> 06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway.
>>
>> As someone who made a special effort to be on the first [public] north
>> and southbound Thameslink trains through the core, I'd probably not
>> have bothered if I knew that they'd pulled the rug and weren't in fact
>> the very first.
>>
>>> I'm also not sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make
>>> for the overal revenue of the line.
>>
>> It's not a revenue thing, as much as a reputational one.
>
>They would likely get a bigger reputational boost from the mainstream
>press reporting "Crossrail opened early".

Not if the journos missed the big event.

On 2022-05-20 11:54:08 +0000, Recliner said:

> On Fri, 20 May 2022 13:28:33 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2022-05-20 11:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t67sf6$qqv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:01:58 on Fri, 20 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
>>>> plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
>>>> will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
>>>> the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
>>>> 06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway.
>>>
>>> As someone who made a special effort to be on the first [public] north
>>> and southbound Thameslink trains through the core, I'd probably not
>>> have bothered if I knew that they'd pulled the rug and weren't in fact
>>> the very first.
>>>
>>>> I'm also not sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make
>>>> for the overal revenue of the line.
>>>
>>> It's not a revenue thing, as much as a reputational one.
>>
>> They would likely get a bigger reputational boost from the mainstream
>> press reporting "Crossrail opened early".
>
> Not if the journos missed the big event.

The big event has already been, when HM went and officially "opened" it.

Robin

On Fri, 20 May 2022 14:19:39 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:

>On 2022-05-20 11:54:08 +0000, Recliner said:
>
>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 13:28:33 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2022-05-20 11:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <t67sf6$qqv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:01:58 on Fri, 20 May
>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
>>>>> plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
>>>>> will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
>>>>> the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
>>>>> 06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway.
>>>>
>>>> As someone who made a special effort to be on the first [public] north
>>>> and southbound Thameslink trains through the core, I'd probably not
>>>> have bothered if I knew that they'd pulled the rug and weren't in fact
>>>> the very first.
>>>>
>>>>> I'm also not sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make
>>>>> for the overal revenue of the line.
>>>>
>>>> It's not a revenue thing, as much as a reputational one.
>>>
>>> They would likely get a bigger reputational boost from the mainstream
>>> press reporting "Crossrail opened early".
>>
>> Not if the journos missed the big event.
>
>The big event has already been, when HM went and officially "opened" it.

I'm sure there will be journos out in force on the first day, interviewing the public using it for the first time (and
looking for faults and problems).

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t66967$t2q$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:26:47 on Thu, 19 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t65p8r$kl0$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:07 on Thu, 19 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2
>>>> ?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>
>>>
>>> One to keep, given it has the short(ish) term discontinuities at
>>> Paddington and Liverpool St. And will in any case need a new map
>>> when Bond St opens.
>>
>> I must admit I find the inevitably complicated Paddington and Liverpool
>> Street 'solutions' a bit messy. [Not that I have a better idea.]
>>
>>> Not yet available at the TfL site.
>>
>> Not till Tuesday, presumably?
>
> Maybe that's their plan, but really the new one should be available a
> little in advance (with suitable disclaimer). What if someone visits
> their website next Monday hoping to plan a trip for next Wednesday?
>
> I've seen the same effect when it comes to some TOCs and their new
> timetables (although a few used to pre-announce them, before Meltdown
> Monday, anyway).

Rail and Tube map now on-line:
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf

This shows Liz as a solid line, and doesn't show that it serves Moorgate.
The Danglebahn is now unbranded, and the Ikea ads from the Tube map aren't
included.

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-05-20 11:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t67sf6$qqv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:01:58 on Fri, 20 May
>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>
>>> I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
>>> plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
>>> will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
>>> the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
>>> 06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway.
>>
>> As someone who made a special effort to be on the first [public] north
>> and southbound Thameslink trains through the core, I'd probably not
>> have bothered if I knew that they'd pulled the rug and weren't in fact
>> the very first.
>>
>>> I'm also not sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make
>>> for the overal revenue of the line.
>>
>> It's not a revenue thing, as much as a reputational one.
>
> They would likely get a bigger reputational boost from the mainstream
> press reporting "Crossrail opened early".

I’m sure the “Crossrail opens 12 hours early!” headlines will trump the
“Crossrail opens 5 years late!” ones. :-)

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-05-20 11:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t67sf6$qqv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:01:58 on Fri, 20 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
>>>> plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
>>>> will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
>>>> the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
>>>> 06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway.
>>>
>>> As someone who made a special effort to be on the first [public] north
>>> and southbound Thameslink trains through the core, I'd probably not
>>> have bothered if I knew that they'd pulled the rug and weren't in fact
>>> the very first.
>>>
>>>> I'm also not sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make
>>>> for the overal revenue of the line.
>>>
>>> It's not a revenue thing, as much as a reputational one.
>>
>> They would likely get a bigger reputational boost from the mainstream
>> press reporting "Crossrail opened early".
>
> I’m sure the “Crossrail opens 12 hours early!” headlines will trump the
> “Crossrail opens 5 years late!” ones. :-)
>

In fact, I think TfL would be attacked for unprofessionalism if Liz opened
on the wrong day.

On Thu, 19 May 2022 06:26:40 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t63jrd$214$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:10:21 on Wed, 18 May
>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> It is interesting that current signage refers to "ELIZABETH LINE" whereas
>>> all the other lines are referred to as "VICTORIA", "METROPOLITAN" etc (no
>>> "LINE") on signs.
>...
>>
>>It's because Elizabeth Line is the *mode*, equivalent with Underground,
>>Overground, DLR; whereas Central, Victoria, Piccadilly etc are *lines*
>>within that mode.
>>
>>Whether or not that should be the case, will clearly be subject of plenty
>>of debate in the future.
>
>More strictly (but doesn't sounds so good) "ElizabethRail"? (As in
>MerseyRail, ScotRail, West Midlands Rail...)
>
>>Personally l'm inclined to think it should be 'Crossrail', with 'Elizabeth'
>>being a line within that mode (thus allowing Crossrail2 to be added in
>>future).
>>
>>I also think that the DLR should be divided into 'lines' for the various
>>parts of the service pattern.
>
>I think the Overground should, too.
>
Much already is (DC line, WLL, NLL, ELL etc.) but not on publicity
material.

On Fri, 20 May 2022 13:26:33 +0100, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 20 May 2022 14:19:39 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>
>>On 2022-05-20 11:54:08 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> On Fri, 20 May 2022 13:28:33 +0200, Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-05-20 11:15:02 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t67sf6$qqv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:01:58 on Fri, 20 May
>>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm having a hard time believing that someone who is keen enough to
>>>>>> plan to go for the first run of the line will suddenly decide that they
>>>>>> will abandon any trip on the line just because it had a soft opening
>>>>>> the day before. Sure, they might decide not to bother turning up at
>>>>>> 06.30, but likelihood is they'll go for a ride anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> As someone who made a special effort to be on the first [public] north
>>>>> and southbound Thameslink trains through the core, I'd probably not
>>>>> have bothered if I knew that they'd pulled the rug and weren't in fact
>>>>> the very first.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm also not sure how big a contribution a few enthusiasts will make
>>>>>> for the overal revenue of the line.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not a revenue thing, as much as a reputational one.
>>>>
>>>> They would likely get a bigger reputational boost from the mainstream
>>>> press reporting "Crossrail opened early".
>>>
>>> Not if the journos missed the big event.
>>
>>The big event has already been, when HM went and officially "opened" it.
>
>I'm sure there will be journos out in force on the first day, interviewing the public using it for the first time (and
>looking for faults and problems).
>
Apart from the odd ones who actually know about railways, more likely
staying at home and quoting what they have seen on Twitter and
Facebook ?

In message <t68evn$crt$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:17:59 on Fri, 20 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t66967$t2q$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:26:47 on Thu, 19 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t65p8r$kl0$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:55:07 on Thu, 19 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Elizabeth Line shown on new London Underground map
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2fd912fa-d774-11ec-8585-951ab3afb4d2
>>>>> ?shareToken=adedefdd79df053805665ab3a1ccf93a>
>>>>
>>>> One to keep, given it has the short(ish) term discontinuities at
>>>> Paddington and Liverpool St. And will in any case need a new map
>>>> when Bond St opens.
>>>
>>> I must admit I find the inevitably complicated Paddington and Liverpool
>>> Street 'solutions' a bit messy. [Not that I have a better idea.]
>>>
>>>> Not yet available at the TfL site.
>>>
>>> Not till Tuesday, presumably?
>>
>> Maybe that's their plan, but really the new one should be available a
>> little in advance (with suitable disclaimer). What if someone visits
>> their website next Monday hoping to plan a trip for next Wednesday?
>>
>> I've seen the same effect when it comes to some TOCs and their new
>> timetables (although a few used to pre-announce them, before Meltdown
>> Monday, anyway).
>
>Rail and Tube map now on-line:
>https://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-and-tube-services-map.pdf
>
>This shows Liz as a solid line, and doesn't show that it serves Moorgate.

That was the first thing I noticed. Also the colour isn't sufficiently
different from Piccadilly [line]sic.

>The Danglebahn is now unbranded,

One by one the Boris-follies rot away.

>and the Ikea ads from the Tube map aren't included.

--
Roland Perry