On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>
>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>
>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>
>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>
> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number of other
> people.

Would have thought you won't be in that situation long, assuming you
have any bank cards as they are all converting to contactless on
renewal. In fact I'd thought they had all done that by now.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2022-05-26 09:53:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t6nevl$9gu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:49:57 on Thu, 26 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>
>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>
>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>> FCC).
>>>
>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>>> of London.
>>
>> But what happens if you board at an LU-only station, and transfer to TL?
>> Do you have to exit at the interchange station, buy your TL ticket, and
>> re-enter?
>>
>>> TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>> there?
>>
>> Use TfL's preferred ticketing mode, contactless cards (including
>> smartphones). It's not going to reopen ticket offices, and apparently can't
>> expand Oyster zonal coverage.
>
> Have TfL increased the "maximum fare" penalty. Shenfield to Reading is
> £29.60 and if you touch in at Shenfield then never touch out, will they
> charge you that, some other sum, or what?

Shenfield is out-of-zones so you can't touch in on Oyster there.

Robin

On 2022-05-26 10:18:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t6ngf2$ka7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:15:09 on Thu, 26 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-05-26 07:56:26 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension
>>>>>> ticket from or you do pay at your destination?
>>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through ticket
>>>>> barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway, Stratford and
>>>>> Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who use the Romford
>>>>> Upminster Overground route). Those issues have existed since those
>>>>> routes were transfered to TfL rail some years ago, and whatever
>>>>> solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth line re-branding.
>>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube transfers),
>>>> but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St, I'd have to
>>>> pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern and the
>>>> Elizabeth Line, at TCR?
>>> No, a longish underground walk, but no barriers. All the shared stations
>>> have direct connections to the other lines in the same station, with no
>>> barriers. There may be some pink Oyster readers, though I didn't notice
>>> any.
>>
>> The pink readers are for validating a route that avoids zone 1 to get a
>> cheaper fare where based on entry/exit only routes via zone 1 or
>> avoiding zone 1 are both possible. There aren't really any locations
>> on Crossrail where that kind of validator would be relevant.
>
> Look up Shenfield to Gatwick Airport, and it's mentioned in the context
> of changing at Canada Water or Whitechapel.

You can't use Oyster at Shenfield.

For changing at Canada Water, you have already changed onto the Jubilee
at Stratford, which has its own gate line, so no benefit from pink
validators for that change.

I had misread the tube map at Whitechapel, due to the zone 1 excursion
to include Shoreditch high street, the blob for Whitechapel actually
looks like it is in zone 1, when it's not.

Robin

On 2022-05-26 10:37:30 +0000, Certes said:

> On 26/05/2022 10:15, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-05-26 07:56:26 +0000, Recliner said:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>> Oyster,  changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>> station such as  Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension
>>>>>> ticket from or you do pay  at your destination?
>>>>>
>>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through ticket
>>>>> barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway, Stratford and
>>>>> Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who use the Romford
>>>>> Upminster Overground route). Those issues have existed since those
>>>>> routes were transfered to TfL rail some years ago, and whatever
>>>>> solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth line re-branding.
>>>>
>>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube transfers),
>>>> but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St, I'd have to
>>>> pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern and the
>>>> Elizabeth Line, at TCR?
>>>
>>> No, a longish underground walk, but no barriers. All the shared stations
>>> have direct connections to the other lines in the same station, with no
>>> barriers. There may be some pink Oyster readers, though I didn't notice
>>> any.
>>
>> The pink readers are for validating a route that avoids zone 1 to get a
>> cheaper fare where based on entry/exit only routes via zone 1 or
>> avoiding zone 1 are both possible.  There aren't really any locations
>> on Crossrail where that kind of validator would be relevant.
>
> I think the only relevant pink validator is at Whitechapel. Few
> journeys have two sensible routes, one via Z1, the other via EL and
> Whitechapel avoiding Z1. Custom House to Clapham Junction via Peckham
> rather than Waterloo, perhaps?

Yes, the map makes it look as if Whitechapel is in Z1 due to the
excursion of Z1 to encompas Shoreditch High St, but it's actually Z2,
and the ELL south from there is all not-Z1.

Robin

In message <t6o0fg$58k$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:48:30 on Thu, 26 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-05-26 09:53:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t6nevl$9gu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:49:57 on Thu, 26 May
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using
>>>>>>>>an Oyster,
>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>station such as
>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within
>>>>>>>the Oyster
>>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly
>>>>>substantial
>>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>>
>>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents
>>>>>
>>>>> FCC).
>>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to
>>>>places outside
>>>> of London.
>>> But what happens if you board at an LU-only station, and transfer
>>>to TL?
>>> Do you have to exit at the interchange station, buy your TL ticket, and
>>> re-enter?
>>>
>>>> TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>>> there?
>>> Use TfL's preferred ticketing mode, contactless cards (including
>>> smartphones). It's not going to reopen ticket offices, and apparently can't
>>> expand Oyster zonal coverage.

>> Have TfL increased the "maximum fare" penalty. Shenfield to Reading
>>is £29.60 and if you touch in at Shenfield then never touch out, will
>>they charge you that, some other sum, or what?
>
>Shenfield is out-of-zones so you can't touch in on Oyster there.

This is regarding CCC touch-in.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6o1ua$g5q$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:13:28 on Thu, 26 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-05-26 10:18:26 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t6ngf2$ka7$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:15:09 on Thu, 26 May
>>2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2022-05-26 07:56:26 +0000, Recliner said:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension
>>>>>>> ticket from or you do pay at your destination?
>>>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through ticket
>>>>>> barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway, Stratford and
>>>>>> Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who use the Romford
>>>>>> Upminster Overground route). Those issues have existed since those
>>>>>> routes were transfered to TfL rail some years ago, and whatever
>>>>>> solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth line re-branding.
>>>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube transfers),
>>>>> but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St, I'd have to
>>>>> pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern and the
>>>>> Elizabeth Line, at TCR?
>>>> No, a longish underground walk, but no barriers. All the shared stations
>>>> have direct connections to the other lines in the same station, with no
>>>> barriers. There may be some pink Oyster readers, though I didn't notice
>>>> any.
>>> The pink readers are for validating a route that avoids zone 1 to
>>>get a cheaper fare where based on entry/exit only routes via zone 1
>>>or avoiding zone 1 are both possible. There aren't really any
>>>locations on Crossrail where that kind of validator would be relevant.
>> Look up Shenfield to Gatwick Airport, and it's mentioned in the
>>context of changing at Canada Water or Whitechapel.
>
>You can't use Oyster at Shenfield.
>
>For changing at Canada Water, you have already changed onto the Jubilee
>at Stratford, which has its own gate line, so no benefit from pink
>validators for that change.

Tell that to TfL for their fares-finder site for CCC payments.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6nvqt$mj$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:37:33 on Thu, 26 May 2022,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6nbra$l8s$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:26 on Thu, 26 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension
>>>>>> ticket from or you do pay at your destination?
>>>>>
>>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through ticket
>>>>> barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway, Stratford and
>>>>> Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who use the Romford
>>>>> Upminster Overground route). Those issues have existed since those
>>>>> routes were transfered to TfL rail some years ago, and whatever
>>>>> solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth line re-branding.
>>>>
>>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube transfers),
>>>> but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St, I'd have to
>>>> pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern and the
>>>> Elizabeth Line, at TCR?
>>>
>>> No, a longish underground walk, but no barriers. All the shared stations
>>> have direct connections to the other lines in the same station, with no
>>> barriers. There may be some pink Oyster readers, though I didn't notice
>>> any.
>>
>> Pink Oyster readers tend to be a stations outside the central zones, so
>> you can flag for example that you made a trip using the Overground to
>> circumnavigate London, which in manyy cases is cheaper than going
>> through the centre.
>>
>>>> Similarly at Farringdon, having boarded a Circle train at Barbican.
>>>
>>> Why wouldn't you just board the Liz at Barbican?
>>
>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>> Barbican.
>
><https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1529167892952059906>

Sounds like yet another road-trip required. If someone enters the
Barbican sub-surface station, can they get to a Farringdon-Liz-line
platform?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6nvqt$mj$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:37:33 on Thu, 26 May 2022,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6nbra$l8s$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:26 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension
>>>>>>> ticket from or you do pay at your destination?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through ticket
>>>>>> barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway, Stratford and
>>>>>> Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who use the Romford
>>>>>> Upminster Overground route). Those issues have existed since those
>>>>>> routes were transfered to TfL rail some years ago, and whatever
>>>>>> solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth line re-branding.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube transfers),
>>>>> but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St, I'd have to
>>>>> pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern and the
>>>>> Elizabeth Line, at TCR?
>>>>
>>>> No, a longish underground walk, but no barriers. All the shared stations
>>>> have direct connections to the other lines in the same station, with no
>>>> barriers. There may be some pink Oyster readers, though I didn't notice
>>>> any.
>>>
>>> Pink Oyster readers tend to be a stations outside the central zones, so
>>> you can flag for example that you made a trip using the Overground to
>>> circumnavigate London, which in manyy cases is cheaper than going
>>> through the centre.
>>>
>>>>> Similarly at Farringdon, having boarded a Circle train at Barbican.
>>>>
>>>> Why wouldn't you just board the Liz at Barbican?
>>>
>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>> Barbican.
>>
>> <https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1529167892952059906>
>
> Sounds like yet another road-trip required. If someone enters the
> Barbican sub-surface station, can they get to a Farringdon-Liz-line
> platform?

Yes, IF they know about the ‘secret’ lift from the westbound platform.

Lew

On 25/05/2022 12:38, Recliner wrote:
> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or you do pay
>>> at your destination?
>>
>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>> Brighton.
>
> Not quite. You can use a contactless card to travel to Reading, but not to Peterborough or Brighton.

That will change at some point, no doubt.

Is there a tentative time that TfL is due to take over Thameslink? They
would like that, AIUI.

That and the Lizzie would make it very similar to the RER.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>
>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>
>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>
>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>
>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>
>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number of other
>
>> people.
>
>also no contactless credit card?

Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a couple of
hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund. Oh sure,
if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid. Took god knows
how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs entering a
PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.

>also considered but rejected prepaid card?

Never heard of them.

>> IOW they haven't thought this through.
>>
>
>I am unclear what you want them to do - except perhaps to spend a great
>deal of money to accommodate a minority of people who wish to use a
>legacy system

Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can persuade
NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
walk in the park.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 09:45:28 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>
>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such
>as
>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>
>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>
>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number of
>other
>>> people.
>>
>> also no contactless credit card?
>>
>> also considered but rejected prepaid card?
>>
>> e.g.
>>
>https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/personal/find-a-card/general-prepaid-masterc
>ard.html
>>
>>
>>> IOW they haven't thought this through.
>>>
>>
>> I am unclear what you want them to do - except perhaps to spend a great
>> deal of money to accommodate a minority of people who wish to use a
>> legacy system
>>
>
>Neil wants to use an unregistered Oyster card to make untracked nefarious
>journeys across London.

Only an idiot wants to be tracked. Not much you can do about a mobile except
switch it off which defeats the point of having it, but no need for everyone
to know your business.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 11:55:05 +0200
Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>On 2022-05-26 08:30:07 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>
>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>
>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>
>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>
>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>
>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>
>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>> FCC).
>>
>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>> of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>> there?
>
>This is not a new problem. There are lots of locations on the network
>where it is possible to make a transfer between TfL services and NR
>services where Oyster isn't valid for the full journey. This includes

Which part of Crossrail *IS* a TfL service is confusing you?

On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:46:33 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6ndqf$1jaf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:07 on Thu, 26 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>>Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>you do pay
>>>>>
>>>>>>at your destination?
>>>>>
>>>>>Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>Brighton.
>>>>
>>>>Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>
>>>What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>
>>>It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>FCC).
>>
>>Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>>of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>there?
>
>Are you saying that the ticket machines at (say) Barbican will not sell
>you a �28.50 single to Reading [see TfL fare-finder site], but *will*
>sell you a �14.40 single to Luton Airport Parkway?
>
>In both cases with one change, at Farringdon?

No. Get some new glasses.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:53:12 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6nevl$9gu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:49:57 on Thu, 26 May
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Use TfL's preferred ticketing mode, contactless cards (including
>>smartphones). It's not going to reopen ticket offices, and apparently can't
>>expand Oyster zonal coverage.
>
>Have TfL increased the "maximum fare" penalty. Shenfield to Reading is
>�29.60 and if you touch in at Shenfield then never touch out, will they
>charge you that, some other sum, or what?

Some guy used that sort of thing as a fare dodge scam a few years ago. His
local NR station didn't have any barriers so he got on the train from
godknowswhereville to some london station then just touched with his Oyster
which charged him the max 10 quid penalty fare which was considerably less
that it would have cost for the journey.

He got found out but not as quick as you'd think (one would assume the Oyster
system would flag up the same card constantly having a penalty). IIRC he
scammed the TOC of something like 40K. Was in the papers.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 11:16:19 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6ngn3$vc7$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:19:31 on Thu, 26 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>
>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>
>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>
>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>
>>>Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>
>>I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number of other
>>people.
>
>Is that paranoia about CCC security (there was a vox-pop on the radio
>last week swearing the risk of getting the card skimmed by someone
>walking past you was too great for them to bear) or just you have a
>weird account where they aren't available.

Wife lost her card and got done for hundreds. Bank was a PITA refunding.
Decided I could live without contactless.

>>IOW they haven't thought this through.
>
>It's been a hot topic ever since they started trialing CCC on the tube.
>Initially it was foreign tourists with non-CCC cards that people were
>concerned about, but somehow they've managed to survive.

There haven't been many for the last 2 years.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 14:47:48 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>
>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>
>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>
>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>
>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>
>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number of other
>
>> people.
>
>Would have thought you won't be in that situation long, assuming you
>have any bank cards as they are all converting to contactless on
>renewal. In fact I'd thought they had all done that by now.

Easily disabled. Cut the antenna.

On 2022-05-26 16:08:05 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:

> On Thu, 26 May 2022 11:55:05 +0200
> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-05-26 08:30:07 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>
>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>
>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>
>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>> FCC).
>>>
>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>>> of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>> there?
>>
>> This is not a new problem. There are lots of locations on the network
>> where it is possible to make a transfer between TfL services and NR
>> services where Oyster isn't valid for the full journey. This includes
>
> Which part of Crossrail *IS* a TfL service is confusing you?

Crossrail is also an NR service (as is Overground).

Robin

On 2022-05-26 09:46:33 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t6ndqf$1jaf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:07 on Thu, 26 May
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>
>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>
>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>
>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>
>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>
>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>> FCC).
>>
>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>> of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>> there?
>
> Are you saying that the ticket machines at (say) Barbican will not sell
> you a £28.50 single to Reading [see TfL fare-finder site], but *will*
> sell you a £14.40 single to Luton Airport Parkway?

It is of course absurd that they can't. The ticket machine at the bus
stop across the street from me here in CH will sell me any ticket
between any two places in all fo CH, or to certain international
destinations nearby, or a number of other options like day passes,
weekly seasons, combined public transport and ski lift passes etc.
That's not from the ticket machine in the nearby station, that's the
ticket machine at a bus stop. It's been like that for the better part
of a decade (and from railway station ticket machines for longer than
that). And before you launch into different TOCs, TfL and the like,
this includes more than a dozen Verkhersverbünde, half a dozen standard
gauge main line railways and countless narrow gauge mountain railways,
urban tramways, ship operators, local bus companies, cable car
operators etc.

Robin

On 2022-05-26 16:16:04 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:

> On Thu, 26 May 2022 14:47:48 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>
>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>
>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>
>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number of other
>>
>>> people.
>>
>> Would have thought you won't be in that situation long, assuming you
>> have any bank cards as they are all converting to contactless on
>> renewal. In fact I'd thought they had all done that by now.
>
> Easily disabled. Cut the antenna.

I am given to believe a breif spell in a microwave oven gets the job done.

Robin

On 26/05/2022 17:11, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:53:12 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6nevl$9gu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:49:57 on Thu, 26 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Use TfL's preferred ticketing mode, contactless cards (including
>>> smartphones). It's not going to reopen ticket offices, and apparently can't
>>> expand Oyster zonal coverage.
>>
>> Have TfL increased the "maximum fare" penalty. Shenfield to Reading is
>> Ł29.60 and if you touch in at Shenfield then never touch out, will they
>> charge you that, some other sum, or what?
>
> Some guy used that sort of thing as a fare dodge scam a few years ago. His
> local NR station didn't have any barriers so he got on the train from
> godknowswhereville to some london station then just touched with his Oyster
> which charged him the max 10 quid penalty fare which was considerably less
> that it would have cost for the journey.
>
> He got found out but not as quick as you'd think (one would assume the Oyster
> system would flag up the same card constantly having a penalty). IIRC he
> scammed the TOC of something like 40K. Was in the papers.

Yes, we discussed the case at the time. Only £7.20 back in 2014. He got
off with paying the evaded fares plus £450 costs, but lost his career.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30475232>

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-05-26 09:46:33 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t6ndqf$1jaf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:07 on Thu, 26 May
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>
>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>
>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>> FCC).
>>>
>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>>> of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>> there?
>>
>> Are you saying that the ticket machines at (say) Barbican will not sell
>> you a £28.50 single to Reading [see TfL fare-finder site], but *will*
>> sell you a £14.40 single to Luton Airport Parkway?
>
> It is of course absurd that they can't. The ticket machine at the bus
> stop across the street from me here in CH will sell me any ticket
> between any two places in all fo CH, or to certain international
> destinations nearby, or a number of other options like day passes,
> weekly seasons, combined public transport and ski lift passes etc.
> That's not from the ticket machine in the nearby station, that's the
> ticket machine at a bus stop. It's been like that for the better part
> of a decade (and from railway station ticket machines for longer than
> that). And before you launch into different TOCs, TfL and the like,
> this includes more than a dozen Verkhersverbünde, half a dozen standard
> gauge main line railways and countless narrow gauge mountain railways,
> urban tramways, ship operators, local bus companies, cable car
> operators etc.

And on any particular date? I ask because the ticket machines here (at
least the ScotRail ones - I haven’t had occasion to try any others) have
recently been upgraded to allow dates other than today.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6ng25$h7s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:08:17 on Thu, 26 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-05-26 05:53:55 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>
>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the
>>>>> extension ticket from or you do pay at your destination?
>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through
>>>> ticket barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway,
>>>> Stratford and Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who
>>>> use the Romford Upminster Overground route). Those issues have
>>>> existed since those routes were transfered to TfL rail some years
>>>> ago, and whatever solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth
>>>>
>
>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube
>>> transfers), but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St,
>>> I'd have to pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern
>>> and the Elizabeth Line, at TCR? Similarly at Farringdon, having
>>> boarded a Circle train at Barbican.
>>
>> You can't get an Elizabeth line tran from any of those stations that
>> leaves the LU zones, the furthest you can go is Abbey Wood (zone 4).
>
> One day soon you will. And is the transfer today at Paddington an OSI,
> or are there direct routes between the two sections today.

I'm pretty sure it's an OSI.

But a Liz traveller could switch to the Tube at Ealing Broadway with no
barriers, and then back to Liz in central London, without crossing any
barriers. Ditto at the east, using Stratford.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6ng25$h7s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:08:17 on Thu, 26 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-05-26 05:53:55 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>
>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the
>>>>> extension ticket from or you do pay at your destination?
>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through
>>>> ticket barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway,
>>>> Stratford and Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who
>>>> use the Romford Upminster Overground route). Those issues have
>>>> existed since those routes were transfered to TfL rail some years
>>>> ago, and whatever solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth
>>>>
>
>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube
>>> transfers), but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St,
>>> I'd have to pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern
>>> and the Elizabeth Line, at TCR? Similarly at Farringdon, having
>>> boarded a Circle train at Barbican.
>>
>> You can't get an Elizabeth line tran from any of those stations that
>> leaves the LU zones, the furthest you can go is Abbey Wood (zone 4).
>
> One day soon you will. And is the transfer today at Paddington an OSI,
> or are there direct routes between the two sections today.
>

I guess it's a 'within station OSI' - you pass through two barrier lines,
and across a non-ticketted area, but without leaving the station building.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/05/2022 12:38, Recliner wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or you do pay
>>>> at your destination?
>>>
>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>> Brighton.
>>
>> Not quite. You can use a contactless card to travel to Reading, but not
>> to Peterborough or Brighton.
>
> That will change at some point, no doubt.
>
> Is there a tentative time that TfL is due to take over Thameslink? They
> would like that, AIUI.

No and no.

>
> That and the Lizzie would make it very similar to the RER.

TfL didn't want TL. It wanted the commuter routes that were mainly in the
GLC area.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>> Barbican.
>>
>> They're nearby.
>>
>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>
>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>
>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>
> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.

No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.

> I've used the Barbican
> Subsurface station quite a bit, mainly for destinations to the
> north from there (so even further from Liz-Line Moorgate, or is it
> Liverpool St [West entrance] ) .

Why not use the Barbican Liz entrance, as I suggested?