Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>
>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>
>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>>> missed a train home in the process.
>>>
>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>
>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>
>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>
>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>> Pancras.
>>>
>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>
>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>
>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
>> Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.
>
> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
> end-to-end)?
>
> How long do you think it will take such people to realise that the route
> to take is via the street level? One day, two, three, a month... ?

Geoff has tweeted this new poster in the Liz passages in Farringdon:

<https://twitter.com/geofftech/status/1531202787161296897?s=21&t=htl7Sc7PuPtj0n0kiH4HHA>

In message <t704cs$g3b$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:28 on Sun, 29 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6vk4o$irk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:04 on Sun, 29 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6su51$usu$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:29 on Sat, 28 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <f6m19h92n57cl04f3fveujt7sklrenihfu@4ax.com>, at 15:07:29 on
>>>>>> Fri, 27 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>
>> **** This is the point at which you'd have saved yourself bucketfuls of
>> **** angst by saying "No, it's two minutes walk from the Barbican
>> **** subsurface station to the eastern entrance of the Farringdon Liz
>> **** station"
>>
>> We could then have abandoned the discussion about Barbican subsurface
>> being a feeder to the Liz Line, and whether it had a ticket machine with
>> "Reading" on the menus, and picked a different feeder station.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>>>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually
>>>>>>>>>>closer to
>>>>>>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz
>>>>>>>>> entrances are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>>>>>> like).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep
>>>>>>> referring to other, more distant stations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why take so many iterations to finally say "I meant Farringdon East
>>>>>> Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line" but mistyped that as the
>>>>>> non-existent "Barbican Elizabeth Line" station?
>>>>>
>>>>> What did you think i meant when I said to use the 'Liz Barbican entrance'?
>>>>
>>>> I thought "there's no such thing", so guessed you perhaps might mean the
>>>> Liz Line station adjacent to the other end of the Barbican (and thus my
>>>> 15 minute walk).
>>>>
>>>> What did *you* think, when I mentioned the 15 minutes?
>>>
>>> That, yet again, you were demonstrating your lack of understanding of
>>> double-ended stations. And I was right.
>> a
>> I understand double-ended platforms, just not your unofficial naming of
>> the eastern end of Farringdon.
>
>'Unofficial'? Nope, just your obstinate ignorance:

As opposed to your obstinate procrastination to spin the thread out even
more, when you could have wrapped it up days ago?

><https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52097225392/in/album-
>72177720299244348/>

Where is the "Barbican", in that roundel?

><https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52098279748/in/album-
>72177720299244348/lightbox/>

That's the name of an Exit, not of a station.

Do you have a picture of the signage over the exit at the east end? In a
spirit of moving on as efficiently as possible, I'll give you a hand:
<https://goo.gl/maps/G8NMp7HWcKRFY7FC9>

--
Roland Perry

In uk.transport.london Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t70tke$c1e$2@gioia.aioe.org>, at 23:55:10 on Sun, 29 May
> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
> >I thought that the card was simply a token or marker, and that back
> >office mainframes do the work,
>
> Depends what era. I think the tram tickets I was buying about ten years
> ago were bearer-bonds, with a chip embedded in the paper. I certainly
> never had anything like an "account" with the transport authority.

You can still do that with a token:
'Token 1234 issued for a single journey from Aldwych to Barking on Friday
13th'

You present token 1234 at the entry door, it asks the backend if 1234 is
valid today on this service, backend says yay or nay.

That doesn't require the token to have any idea what it's valid for. If
issued from a ticket machine the backend is updated with the validity for
newly issued tokens.

This means you can use a mostly-dumb RFID token as the ticket, rather than
having much smarts in the ticket (which miscreants could tamper with). That
makes tickets a lot cheaper to produce.

(There are some MIFAREs marketed for disposable ski passes and such, so
cheap ones are available. But a static RFID is even cheaper)

Theo

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t704cs$g3b$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:44:28 on Sun, 29 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6vk4o$irk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:04 on Sun, 29 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6su51$usu$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:29 on Sat, 28 May
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <f6m19h92n57cl04f3fveujt7sklrenihfu@4ax.com>, at 15:07:29 on
>>>>>>> Fri, 27 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>>
>>> **** This is the point at which you'd have saved yourself bucketfuls of
>>> **** angst by saying "No, it's two minutes walk from the Barbican
>>> **** subsurface station to the eastern entrance of the Farringdon Liz
>>> **** station"
>>>
>>> We could then have abandoned the discussion about Barbican subsurface
>>> being a feeder to the Liz Line, and whether it had a ticket machine with
>>> "Reading" on the menus, and picked a different feeder station.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>>>>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually
>>>>>>>>>>> closer to
>>>>>>>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz
>>>>>>>>>> entrances are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>>>>>>> like).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep
>>>>>>>> referring to other, more distant stations?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why take so many iterations to finally say "I meant Farringdon East
>>>>>>> Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line" but mistyped that as the
>>>>>>> non-existent "Barbican Elizabeth Line" station?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What did you think i meant when I said to use the 'Liz Barbican entrance'?
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought "there's no such thing", so guessed you perhaps might mean the
>>>>> Liz Line station adjacent to the other end of the Barbican (and thus my
>>>>> 15 minute walk).
>>>>>
>>>>> What did *you* think, when I mentioned the 15 minutes?
>>>>
>>>> That, yet again, you were demonstrating your lack of understanding of
>>>> double-ended stations. And I was right.
>>> a
>>> I understand double-ended platforms, just not your unofficial naming of
>>> the eastern end of Farringdon.
>>
>> 'Unofficial'? Nope, just your obstinate ignorance:
>
> As opposed to your obstinate procrastination to spin the thread out even
> more, when you could have wrapped it up days ago?

It's always amusing to watch you arrogantly and repeatedly demonstrating
your ignorance while pretending you know what you're talking about.

>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52097225392/in/album-
>> 72177720299244348/>
>
> Where is the "Barbican", in that roundel?
>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52098279748/in/album-
>> 72177720299244348/lightbox/>
>
> That's the name of an Exit, not of a station.

I know. That's why I referred to the 'Liz Barbican station entrance'.

>
> Do you have a picture of the signage over the exit at the east end? In a
> spirit of moving on as efficiently as possible, I'll give you a hand:
> <https://goo.gl/maps/G8NMp7HWcKRFY7FC9>
>

Yes, it's the Liz Barbican entrance that I had repeatedly mentioned. And it
was me that helpfully told you exactly where it was. So you should be
thanking me for the useful information, not pretending you knew what you
were talking about.

But, oh no, you can never admit you were wrong. You don't realise what a
source of amusement that makes you.

In message <t724d7$iis$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:56:55 on Mon, 30 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-05-29 08:42:01 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message
>><1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>, at
>>15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."

>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?

>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then
>>>you
>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>> missed a train home in the process.

>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>journey to St Pancras or beyond.

>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock"
>>at St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink
>>station gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options,
>>or walk/taxi to their destination.

>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St Pancras.
>
>The ticket destintaion "London Thameslink" exists to cover this type of
>journey.

But not available from all stations, just ones sufficiently close to
London. Although the limit has been creeping north over the years (I
recall when through-running from Cambridge started, it appeared as an
alternative to London Terminals, but obviously only for Thameslink flow,
and still not sure if it's valid for the Thameslink flow to KGX).

>From the north it is valid as far south as London Bridge and Elephant
>and Castle, and from the south is valid as far north as St Pancras.

I must update this FAQ I've been maintaining for a decade now:

http://perry.co.uk/avantix_for_dummies.html

Northern limit used to be "tickets from Bedford", and at some point
they've extended it to Farringdon and StP from the south.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6v7q3$b0c$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:36:35 on Sun, 29 May
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Sat, 28 May 2022 15:05:54 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 28 May 2022 14:56:24 +0100
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 28 May 2022 13:55:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 28 May 2022 10:10:21 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> You also need to remember that it's a smart card, and calculates the
>>>>>>>>> fare in the milliseconds you are touching out. The number of potential
>>>>>>>>> fares goes up with the square of the number of zones.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why would the card be calculating it? It just tells the gate where its
>>> come
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> from and the gate does the rest.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's how the original Oyster system worked.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You absolutely sure about that? I remember reading an article many moons
>>>>>> ago talking about the conversation between card and gate and the gate
>>> writing
>>>>>> data back to the card. If the card did everything there'd be no need for a
>>>>>> 2 way conversation - the gate would simply tell the card its zone, done.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the card needs to know the remaining balance, and probably
>>>>> other info as
>>>
>>>>> well (such as the time/date).
>>>>
>>>> How could it not know the remaining balance if the balance is stored on it?
>>>> Either the card does the computation or the gate does, it can't be both.
>>>> As for time, that could be sent along with the zone, still no need for a 2
>>>> way chat if the card does it all.
>>>
>>> How would the card know if the balance was topped-up on-line?
>>
>> Fair point. Which rather brings me back to my point about the card being dumb
>> and the gateline doing all the work. One minute the card is so technically
>> constrained it can only use 4 bits for zones, next you and roland are claiming
>> its doing all the calculations on its own. Something isn't right there.
>
> It's doing all the calculations, limited to a maximum of 15 zones. Got
> it?

<nostalgia topic=“computer networking”> Reminiscent of RIP counting to
infinity, where infinity = 15… </nostalgia>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t703eq$1ib3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:28:27 on Sun, 29 May
> 2022, muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:28 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6v8g1$iu1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:48:17 on Sun, 29 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>> 4 seperate CPUs (1 for the printer, can't remember what the others were for)
>>>> so I'm pretty sure they're up to the job.
>>>
>>> I'll remember that next time I'm in a shop touching-in for the bus
>>> stopped waiting for me outside.
>>
>> So you think the shop ones were some kind of supercomputer version and the
>> bus ones have what, a 4004 inside?
>
> They won't have the same processing power, that's for sure. As the bus
> pads aren't required to do any actual fares calculations, they could
> easily be some kind of dedicated mainly-comms chip.

Doesn’t comms these days tend to require encryption? If so there will need
to be either a dedicated encryption chip or something more powerful than,
say, a PIC. Mind you an Arduino or Raspberry Pi or their more modern
successors should be more than adequate.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 30/05/2022 12:12, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t703eq$1ib3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:28:27 on Sun, 29 May
>> 2022, muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:28 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6v8g1$iu1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:48:17 on Sun, 29 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>> 4 seperate CPUs (1 for the printer, can't remember what the others were for)
>>>>> so I'm pretty sure they're up to the job.
>>>>
>>>> I'll remember that next time I'm in a shop touching-in for the bus
>>>> stopped waiting for me outside.
>>>
>>> So you think the shop ones were some kind of supercomputer version and the
>>> bus ones have what, a 4004 inside?
>>
>> They won't have the same processing power, that's for sure. As the bus
>> pads aren't required to do any actual fares calculations, they could
>> easily be some kind of dedicated mainly-comms chip.
>
> Doesn’t comms these days tend to require encryption? If so there will need
> to be either a dedicated encryption chip or something more powerful than,
> say, a PIC. Mind you an Arduino or Raspberry Pi or their more modern
> successors should be more than adequate.

Authentication is more important than encryption here, but it may be a
similar algorithm. ("Encrypt" the message with a private key, so the
receiver can "decrypt" with a public key to verify who "encrypted" it.)

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>
>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>
>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>>> missed a train home in the process.
>>>
>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>
>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>
>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>
>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>> Pancras.
>>>
>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>
>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>
>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
>> Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.
>
> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
> end-to-end)?

Well, obviously the numbers are significant enough for them to have
validators when changing to the Circle/Met lines.

If theres a need for validators during that transfer, why on earth would
transferring to the Liz be any different?

Lew

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6vk4o$irk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:04 on Sun, 29 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6su51$usu$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:29 on Sat, 28 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <f6m19h92n57cl04f3fveujt7sklrenihfu@4ax.com>, at 15:07:29 on
>>>>>> Fri, 27 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>
>> **** This is the point at which you'd have saved yourself bucketfuls of
>> **** angst by saying "No, it's two minutes walk from the Barbican
>> **** subsurface station to the eastern entrance of the Farringdon Liz
>> **** station"
>>
>> We could then have abandoned the discussion about Barbican subsurface
>> being a feeder to the Liz Line, and whether it had a ticket machine with
>> "Reading" on the menus, and picked a different feeder station.
>>
>>>>>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>>>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>>>>>>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz
>>>>>>>>> entrances are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>>>>>> like).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep
>>>>>>> referring to other, more distant stations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why take so many iterations to finally say "I meant Farringdon East
>>>>>> Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line" but mistyped that as the
>>>>>> non-existent "Barbican Elizabeth Line" station?
>>>>>
>>>>> What did you think i meant when I said to use the 'Liz Barbican entrance'?
>>>>
>>>> I thought "there's no such thing", so guessed you perhaps might mean the
>>>> Liz Line station adjacent to the other end of the Barbican (and thus my
>>>> 15 minute walk).
>>>>
>>>> What did *you* think, when I mentioned the 15 minutes?
>>>
>>> That, yet again, you were demonstrating your lack of understanding of
>>> double-ended stations. And I was right.
>> a
>> I understand double-ended platforms, just not your unofficial naming of
>> the eastern end of Farringdon.
>
> 'Unofficial'? Nope, just your obstinate ignorance:
>
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52097225392/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52098279748/in/album-72177720299244348/lightbox/>
>

I was about to post two very similar pictures!

Perhaps we need clarified nomenclature - EL Farringdon (Farringdon) and EL
Farringdon (Barbican), perhaps?

The same could apply to EL Tottenham Court Road (Tottenham Court Road) and
EL Tottenham Court Road (Dean Street), of course.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t70ovp$opj$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:35:53 on Sun, 29 May
> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 27/05/2022 00:57, Recliner wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>
>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>
>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>
>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>>
>>>> I've used the Barbican
>>>> Subsurface station quite a bit, mainly for destinations to the
>>>> north from there (so even further from Liz-Line Moorgate, or is it
>>>> Liverpool St [West entrance] ) .
>
>>> Why not use the Barbican Liz entrance, as I suggested?
>>
>> It's interesting that LUL Barbican and Farringdon each have a transfer
>> to the same station, as do Moorgate and Liverpool Street.
>>
>> How many other metros in the world have this feature, I wonder?
>>
>> NO OSIs!
>
> Bank to Monument;

That's not one station connecting to *two* others on the same line, which
AIUI was the question.

> and Waterloo East to both Waterloo and Southwark.
>

Within the gate lines?

> The latest tube map is confusing in the City because (putting aside for
> a moment the cost-cut lifts to Barbican Subsurface, although no doubt
> one could move to the other platform without leaving the building),
>

Indeed you can, but not step-free.

> it
> encourages people wanting to head for the deep tube platforms at
> Moorgate to change to the subsurface lines on a hop from Liverpool St.
>

It does? I don't see that on the latest version; there's a walking route
shown throughout.

> I also think it's a shame they've never found a way to show the western
> entrance and ticket hall for the Bakerloo at Charing Cross, in its
> original configuration as a separate "Trafalgar Square" station.
>

Personally I think they should rename CX Bakerloo as "Trafalgar Square" and
have them as two separate stations shown connected by a walking route, like
Bank/Monument.

> St Pancras International is a bit strange too, showing a different blob
> for the MML, but a combined one for Thameslink and Hi-Speed. When all
> three are some distance from each other. The separation shown of the
> subsurface lines is far more realistic.
>

What blobs for MML/Highspeed? Are we looking at the same map?
<https://content.tfl.gov.uk/standard-tube-map.pdf> has, at KX/SP, blobs for
SSL, Northern, Piccadilly/Victoria, and TL; with a double-arrow symbol
adjacent to the station name for the other NR services.

Curiously, Farringdon also has an double arrow symbol, implying a
connection to NR services not shown on the map?

> The DLR via Bow really needs its own blob at Stratford.

Possibly.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <t723f2$ce7$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:40:50 on Mon, 30 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>>
>>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>>>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>>>> missed a train home in the process.
>>>>
>>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>>
>>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>>
>>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>>
>>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>>> Pancras.
>>>>
>>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>>
>>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>>
>>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
>>> Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.
>>
>> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
>> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
>> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
>> end-to-end)?
>>
>> How long do you think it will take such people to realise that the route
>> to take is via the street level? One day, two, three, a month... ?
>
><https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/crossrail-how-elizabeth-
>line-fares-24059991>

"Real rail fares geeks...

see earlier discussion about understanding the much earlier rip-off
fares on HS1 from Stratford to StP...

"will know that Travelcards tend not to be only around £4 more

that's a bit out of date, for example Cambridge Anytime Day Return to
London Terminals £47.30, Anytime Day Travelcard £57.10, and even more
pronounced if travelling via LST, where the Anytime Day Return is
£43.20 ...

"than the cost of a return ticket to Central London anyway, but Mayor
Sadiq Khan is proposing to withdraw TfL services from the Travelcard
Agreement,

the *outboundary* travelcard agreement...

"which would mean this option would cease to exist."

Next: "You must pay extra to travel to/from Heathrow Airport"

Yes, but only if you don't make the return trip that day (see tourist
tax discussion).

Next: "Go to any National Rail station outside Zone 6 with a National
Rail ticket machine and try to type in one of the following
destinations: Bond Street, Tottenham Court Road, Canary Wharf,
Custom House or Woolwich. On some you simply can't and on others
you are sold a Travelcard instead"

That's a much wider issue because they haven't made a *special case* for
Liz-Line stations, rather they've withdrawn tickets to Z1, Z1/2 etc from
some places.

But not everywhere: Cambridge to '0790 ZONE U12* LONDN' SDR is £53.70,
and therefore in between the London Terminals and full Travelcard fare.
It's two singles at effectively for £3.70 each, which is only 50p more
than the contactless fare, and might be worth paying for the extra
convenience and impossibility of being overcharged.

Next: "You can't use the Elizabeth line as a shortcut on many National
Rail tickets even though it's a National Rail line

The traingeeks among us might say - hang on I can buy a National
Rail ticket to travel to Paddington, Farringdon, Moorgate/
Liverpool Street, Whitechapel and Abbey Wood anyway, so I'll just
use the Elizabeth line as a shortcut. In many cases you'd be
wrong. Unless your ticket has the route "Any Permitted", the
asterisk/cross symbols (*/+) which allows you to cross London on
TfL services anyway or a specific mention of a route "via
Elizabeth line", you won't be able to use it.

This makes no sense *whatsoever*. You can't use the ticket to cross
London, unless it's one of the vast majority which have cross-London
permitted!!
--
Roland Perry

In message <t728q1$hth$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:01 on Mon, 30 May
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t703eq$1ib3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:28:27 on Sun, 29 May
>> 2022, muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:28 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6v8g1$iu1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:48:17 on Sun, 29 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>> 4 seperate CPUs (1 for the printer, can't remember what the others
>>>>>were for)
>>>>> so I'm pretty sure they're up to the job.
>>>>
>>>> I'll remember that next time I'm in a shop touching-in for the bus
>>>> stopped waiting for me outside.
>>>
>>> So you think the shop ones were some kind of supercomputer version and the
>>> bus ones have what, a 4004 inside?
>>
>> They won't have the same processing power, that's for sure. As the bus
>> pads aren't required to do any actual fares calculations, they could
>> easily be some kind of dedicated mainly-comms chip.
>
>Doesn’t comms these days tend to require encryption? If so there will need
>to be either a dedicated encryption chip or something more powerful than,
>say, a PIC. Mind you an Arduino or Raspberry Pi or their more modern
>successors should be more than adequate.

Of course Oyster is encrypted, but so are CCC and you can get cheap
compact readers for those (using today's technology). How old is a
typical bus pad - well the electronics would probably date from just
before v2 was introduced, so 2008 perhaps. Plus potentially whatever
tweaks were required to allow CCC from 2012 (unless they were already
capable) and of course ITSO (Freedom Pass included)

--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 30 May 2022 12:17:49 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6vk4o$irk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:04 on Sun, 29 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6su51$usu$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:29 on Sat, 28 May
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <f6m19h92n57cl04f3fveujt7sklrenihfu@4ax.com>, at 15:07:29 on
>>>>>>> Fri, 27 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>>
>>> **** This is the point at which you'd have saved yourself bucketfuls of
>>> **** angst by saying "No, it's two minutes walk from the Barbican
>>> **** subsurface station to the eastern entrance of the Farringdon Liz
>>> **** station"
>>>
>>> We could then have abandoned the discussion about Barbican subsurface
>>> being a feeder to the Liz Line, and whether it had a ticket machine with
>>> "Reading" on the menus, and picked a different feeder station.
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>>>>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>>>>>>>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz
>>>>>>>>>> entrances are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>>>>>>> like).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep
>>>>>>>> referring to other, more distant stations?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why take so many iterations to finally say "I meant Farringdon East
>>>>>>> Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line" but mistyped that as the
>>>>>>> non-existent "Barbican Elizabeth Line" station?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What did you think i meant when I said to use the 'Liz Barbican entrance'?
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought "there's no such thing", so guessed you perhaps might mean the
>>>>> Liz Line station adjacent to the other end of the Barbican (and thus my
>>>>> 15 minute walk).
>>>>>
>>>>> What did *you* think, when I mentioned the 15 minutes?
>>>>
>>>> That, yet again, you were demonstrating your lack of understanding of
>>>> double-ended stations. And I was right.
>>> a
>>> I understand double-ended platforms, just not your unofficial naming of
>>> the eastern end of Farringdon.
>>
>> 'Unofficial'? Nope, just your obstinate ignorance:
>>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52097225392/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52098279748/in/album-72177720299244348/lightbox/>
>>
>
>I was about to post two very similar pictures!
>
>Perhaps we need clarified nomenclature - EL Farringdon (Farringdon) and EL
>Farringdon (Barbican), perhaps?
>
>The same could apply to EL Tottenham Court Road (Tottenham Court Road) and
>EL Tottenham Court Road (Dean Street), of course.

There's also Bond Street coming, with its Hanover Square entrance. I think it's easier to just refer to the entrances
(unless there's ambiguity, as with Barbican), west to east:
Paddington
Bond Street
Hanover Square
Dean Street
Tottenham Court Road
Farringdon
Barbican (EL)
Moorgate
Liverpool Street
Whitechapel

On Mon, 30 May 2022 12:16:44 -0000 (UTC), Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>>
>>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>>>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>>>> missed a train home in the process.
>>>>
>>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>>
>>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>>
>>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>>
>>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>>> Pancras.
>>>>
>>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>>
>>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>>
>>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
>>> Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.
>>
>> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
>> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
>> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
>> end-to-end)?
>
>Well, obviously the numbers are significant enough for them to have
>validators when changing to the Circle/Met lines.
>
>If theres a need for validators during that transfer, why on earth would
>transferring to the Liz be any different?

TfL has accepted the need, and promised to install readers. In the meantime, it's placed posters to warn affected Liz
pax to exit and enter through the surface gatelines.

The question is why they were omitted in the first place? Were they always planned, but simply late? Or did TfL simply
forget or not understand the need? Or (conspiracy theory in the press), was it really a sneaky way for TfL to
overcharge customers for unresolved journeys?

In uk.railway Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 30/05/2022 12:12, Sam Wilson wrote:
> > Doesn’t comms these days tend to require encryption? If so there will need
> > to be either a dedicated encryption chip or something more powerful than,
> > say, a PIC. Mind you an Arduino or Raspberry Pi or their more modern
> > successors should be more than adequate.
>
> Authentication is more important than encryption here, but it may be a
> similar algorithm. ("Encrypt" the message with a private key, so the
> receiver can "decrypt" with a public key to verify who "encrypted" it.)

They will likely be doing both. You need at the very least a counter in the
card to ensure freshness (can't just replay prior transactions), and it is
probably the card signing a hash of <stuff> that includes the card ID and
the counter. That's doable in a basic card, although public key crypto is
moderately slow on a constrained processor (many milliseconds, older cards
of the first-gen Oyster era could be seconds). Calculating a signature
involves crypto, usually public key but you might be able to get away with
cheaper symmetric crypto (HMAC or a cipher MAC) if the card and backend
share a private key.

What you put in the terminal depends on whether the terminal is just
forwarding traffic or interacting with the card (as in a chip and PIN card),
but it's likely any terminal on a network is going to be encrypting the
network traffic. That isn't very taxing these days - the terminal isn't
nearly as constrained in terms of power/compute as the card is.

Theo

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 May 2022 12:16:44 -0000 (UTC), Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>>>>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>>>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>>>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>>>>> missed a train home in the process.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>>>
>>>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>>>
>>>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>>>> Pancras.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>>>
>>>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>>>
>>>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
>>>> Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.
>>>
>>> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
>>> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
>>> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
>>> end-to-end)?
>>
>> Well, obviously the numbers are significant enough for them to have
>> validators when changing to the Circle/Met lines.
>>
>> If theres a need for validators during that transfer, why on earth would
>> transferring to the Liz be any different?
>
> TfL has accepted the need, and promised to install readers. In the
> meantime, it's placed posters to warn affected Liz
> pax to exit and enter through the surface gatelines.

Yes I know… I got the impression that Roland was trying to say there was no
need for them.

Lew

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 May 2022 12:17:49 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6vk4o$irk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:04 on Sun, 29 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6su51$usu$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:29 on Sat, 28 May
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <f6m19h92n57cl04f3fveujt7sklrenihfu@4ax.com>, at 15:07:29 on
>>>>>>>> Fri, 27 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>>>
>>>> **** This is the point at which you'd have saved yourself bucketfuls of
>>>> **** angst by saying "No, it's two minutes walk from the Barbican
>>>> **** subsurface station to the eastern entrance of the Farringdon Liz
>>>> **** station"
>>>>
>>>> We could then have abandoned the discussion about Barbican subsurface
>>>> being a feeder to the Liz Line, and whether it had a ticket machine with
>>>> "Reading" on the menus, and picked a different feeder station.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>>>>>>>>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz
>>>>>>>>>>> entrances are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>>>>>>>> like).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep
>>>>>>>>> referring to other, more distant stations?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why take so many iterations to finally say "I meant Farringdon East
>>>>>>>> Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line" but mistyped that as the
>>>>>>>> non-existent "Barbican Elizabeth Line" station?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What did you think i meant when I said to use the 'Liz Barbican entrance'?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought "there's no such thing", so guessed you perhaps might mean the
>>>>>> Liz Line station adjacent to the other end of the Barbican (and thus my
>>>>>> 15 minute walk).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What did *you* think, when I mentioned the 15 minutes?
>>>>>
>>>>> That, yet again, you were demonstrating your lack of understanding of
>>>>> double-ended stations. And I was right.
>>>> a
>>>> I understand double-ended platforms, just not your unofficial naming of
>>>> the eastern end of Farringdon.
>>>
>>> 'Unofficial'? Nope, just your obstinate ignorance:
>>>
>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52097225392/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>>
>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52098279748/in/album-72177720299244348/lightbox/>
>>>
>>
>> I was about to post two very similar pictures!
>>
>> Perhaps we need clarified nomenclature - EL Farringdon (Farringdon) and EL
>> Farringdon (Barbican), perhaps?
>>
>> The same could apply to EL Tottenham Court Road (Tottenham Court Road) and
>> EL Tottenham Court Road (Dean Street), of course.
>
> There's also Bond Street coming, with its Hanover Square entrance. I
> think it's easier to just refer to the entrances
> (unless there's ambiguity, as with Barbican), west to east:
> Paddington
> Bond Street
> Hanover Square
> Dean Street
> Tottenham Court Road
> Farringdon
> Barbican (EL)
> Moorgate
> Liverpool Street
> Whitechapel

Interestingly, there was a whiteboard by TCR on opening day telling Liz
passengers to walk down the street for the Liz. Of course that’s totally
unnecessary, and the tube entrance gets you to the platforms perfectly
well, though I note none of the street level signage mentions EL at all.

Seems a shame to build an entrance then not want people to use it.

Lew

Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 May 2022 12:16:44 -0000 (UTC), Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>>>>>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>>>>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>>>>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>>>>>> missed a train home in the process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>>>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>>>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>>>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>>>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>>>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>>>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>>>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>>>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>>>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>>>>> Pancras.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>>>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>>>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>>>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>>>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>>>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>>>>
>>>>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
>>>>> Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.
>>>>
>>>> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
>>>> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
>>>> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
>>>> end-to-end)?
>>>
>>> Well, obviously the numbers are significant enough for them to have
>>> validators when changing to the Circle/Met lines.
>>>
>>> If theres a need for validators during that transfer, why on earth would
>>> transferring to the Liz be any different?
>>
>> TfL has accepted the need, and promised to install readers. In the
>> meantime, it's placed posters to warn affected Liz
>> pax to exit and enter through the surface gatelines.
>
> Yes I know… I got the impression that Roland was trying to say there was no
> need for them.
>

I think he just fancies another argument; had you suggested that they
weren't needed, he'd no doubt have argued that they were.

Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 May 2022 12:17:49 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6vk4o$irk$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:04 on Sun, 29 May
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t6su51$usu$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:39:29 on Sat, 28 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <f6m19h92n57cl04f3fveujt7sklrenihfu@4ax.com>, at 15:07:29 on
>>>>>>>>> Fri, 27 May 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>>>>
>>>>> **** This is the point at which you'd have saved yourself bucketfuls of
>>>>> **** angst by saying "No, it's two minutes walk from the Barbican
>>>>> **** subsurface station to the eastern entrance of the Farringdon Liz
>>>>> **** station"
>>>>>
>>>>> We could then have abandoned the discussion about Barbican subsurface
>>>>> being a feeder to the Liz Line, and whether it had a ticket machine with
>>>>> "Reading" on the menus, and picked a different feeder station.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz
>>>>>>>>>>>> entrances are two minutes walk apart.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>>>>>>>>>>> like).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep
>>>>>>>>>> referring to other, more distant stations?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why take so many iterations to finally say "I meant Farringdon East
>>>>>>>>> Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line" but mistyped that as the
>>>>>>>>> non-existent "Barbican Elizabeth Line" station?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What did you think i meant when I said to use the 'Liz Barbican entrance'?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought "there's no such thing", so guessed you perhaps might mean the
>>>>>>> Liz Line station adjacent to the other end of the Barbican (and thus my
>>>>>>> 15 minute walk).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What did *you* think, when I mentioned the 15 minutes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That, yet again, you were demonstrating your lack of understanding of
>>>>>> double-ended stations. And I was right.
>>>>> a
>>>>> I understand double-ended platforms, just not your unofficial naming of
>>>>> the eastern end of Farringdon.
>>>>
>>>> 'Unofficial'? Nope, just your obstinate ignorance:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52097225392/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52098279748/in/album-72177720299244348/lightbox/>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I was about to post two very similar pictures!
>>>
>>> Perhaps we need clarified nomenclature - EL Farringdon (Farringdon) and EL
>>> Farringdon (Barbican), perhaps?
>>>
>>> The same could apply to EL Tottenham Court Road (Tottenham Court Road) and
>>> EL Tottenham Court Road (Dean Street), of course.
>>
>> There's also Bond Street coming, with its Hanover Square entrance. I
>> think it's easier to just refer to the entrances
>> (unless there's ambiguity, as with Barbican), west to east:
>> Paddington
>> Bond Street
>> Hanover Square
>> Dean Street
>> Tottenham Court Road
>> Farringdon
>> Barbican (EL)
>> Moorgate
>> Liverpool Street
>> Whitechapel
>
> Interestingly, there was a whiteboard by TCR on opening day telling Liz
> passengers to walk down the street for the Liz. Of course that’s totally
> unnecessary, and the tube entrance gets you to the platforms perfectly
> well, though I note none of the street level signage mentions EL at all.
>
> Seems a shame to build an entrance then not want people to use it.

Perhaps they're trying not to overload the Tube access routes?

In message <1306430280.675605578.085247.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
at 12:16:44 on Mon, 30 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>>
>>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform. Then you
>>>>> would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up the footbridge, down
>>>>> to the tube platforms, touch the reader, retrace your steps back over the
>>>>> footbridge to the same platform you started from. Quite likely having
>>>>> missed a train home in the process.
>>>>
>>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>>
>>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>>
>>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>>
>>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>>> Pancras.
>>>>
>>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>>
>>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>>
>>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail station and
>>> Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this commuter route.
>>
>> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
>> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
>> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
>> end-to-end)?
>
>Well, obviously the numbers are significant enough for them to have
>validators when changing to the Circle/Met lines.

At the time those validators were installed, it was when every way into
the "tube network" was flooded with them, from a baseline of zero. It
was also much less likely that commuters had touched-in already at their
National Rail stations at the start of the trip (in fact, when were any
pure National Rail stations first brought into the Oyster scheme?)

>If theres a need for validators during that transfer, why on earth would
>transferring to the Liz be any different?

Because there's already validators (and gates) available, just not in
that one corridor.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t72m7e$m4c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:01:02 on Mon, 30 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 30 May 2022 12:16:44 -0000 (UTC), Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>>> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>>>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform.
>>>>>>>>Then you would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up
>>>>>>>>the footbridge, down to the tube platforms, touch the reader,
>>>>>>>>retrace your steps back over the footbridge to the same
>>>>>>>>platform you started from. Quite likely having missed a train home in the process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>>>>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>>>>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>>>>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>>>>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>>>>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>>>>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>>>>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>>>>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>>>>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>>>>>> Pancras.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>>>>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>>>>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>>>>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>>>>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>>>>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail
>>>>>>station and Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this
>>>>>>commuter route.
>>>>>
>>>>> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
>>>>> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
>>>>> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
>>>>> end-to-end)?
>>>>
>>>> Well, obviously the numbers are significant enough for them to have
>>>> validators when changing to the Circle/Met lines.
>>>>
>>>> If theres a need for validators during that transfer, why on earth would
>>>> transferring to the Liz be any different?
>>>
>>> TfL has accepted the need, and promised to install readers. In the
>>> meantime, it's placed posters to warn affected Liz
>>> pax to exit and enter through the surface gatelines.
>>
>> Yes I know… I got the impression that Roland was trying to say there was no
>> need for them.
>
>I think he just fancies another argument; had you suggested that they
>weren't needed, he'd no doubt have argued that they were.

There's no *pressing* need. Just like they've decided long ago there's
no similar need for validators to touch out of TfL-land onto
National-Rail land at StP-Thameslink.

Oyster acceptance has increased in the mean time, but I recall having to
go up to the street and back down again when touching out my Oyster at
East Croydon and resuming my trip to Gatwick on a National Rail paper
ticket.
--
Roland Perry

On Mon, 30 May 2022 10:27:34 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t703eq$1ib3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:28:27 on Sun, 29 May
>2022, muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:28 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <t6v8g1$iu1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:48:17 on Sun, 29 May
>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>>4 seperate CPUs (1 for the printer, can't remember what the others were for)
>
>>>>so I'm pretty sure they're up to the job.
>>>
>>>I'll remember that next time I'm in a shop touching-in for the bus
>>>stopped waiting for me outside.
>>
>>So you think the shop ones were some kind of supercomputer version and the
>>bus ones have what, a 4004 inside?
>
>They won't have the same processing power, that's for sure. As the bus
>pads aren't required to do any actual fares calculations, they could
>easily be some kind of dedicated mainly-comms chip.

Even dedicated comms chips these days usually contain an ARM cortex core
or similar. Back in the day it would have been a PIC which are more than
capable of holding their own against old school CPUs so I imagine the bus
pads are more than capable.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t72m7e$m4c$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:01:02 on Mon, 30 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 30 May 2022 12:16:44 -0000 (UTC), Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <966809526.675556665.314723.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>>>> at 22:38:51 on Sun, 29 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <1764221665.675444030.997025.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
>>>>>>>> at 15:22:48 on Sat, 28 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "While we are urgently working on finding a more permanent
>>>>>>>>>>> solution we are encouraging customers to touch in at the ticket
>>>>>>>>>>> line or at validators on the London Underground platforms."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How do Liz-TL pax access those?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Liz line delivers you directly to the northbound TL platform.
>>>>>>>>> Then you would need to walk halfway along the TL platform, up
>>>>>>>>> the footbridge, down to the tube platforms, touch the reader,
>>>>>>>>> retrace your steps back over the footbridge to the same
>>>>>>>>> platform you started from. Quite likely having missed a train home in the process.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's take a closer look at the affected population.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's those passengers who want to "stop the clock" at Farringdon
>>>>>>>> Northbound, and use an alternative ticketing scheme to complete their
>>>>>>>> journey to St Pancras or beyond.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So it's NOT anyone who is anticipating wanting the "stop the clock" at
>>>>>>>> St Pancras by changing [inevitably via the St Pancras Thameslink station
>>>>>>>> gateline] to any of the various onward National Rail options, or
>>>>>>>> walk/taxi to their destination.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Modulo the very few who are holding a paper* ticket from "London
>>>>>>>> Terminals" and were going to remain on one or other Thameslink train.
>>>>>>>> They will be looking for the non-existent validators on the St Pancras
>>>>>>>> Thameslink platforms. They can't touch-out at Farringdon because in
>>>>>>>> theory at least they'd be getting a ticket-less ride from there to St
>>>>>>>> Pancras.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's also NOT anyone who was contemplating an end-to-end contactless
>>>>>>>> trip culminating at one of the contactless-equipped stations in North
>>>>>>>> London or south Hertfordshire (or via a cross-platform change at
>>>>>>>> Finsbury Park and a few other edge cases)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So all we have left are people with paper* tickets from Farringdon
>>>>>>>> (which is part of the "London Thameslink" group) who decided to use
>>>>>>>> paper* to do the National Rail leg, but use contactless inside London.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> … and everyone with a season ticket between their local rail
>>>>>>> station and Farringdon. Which is quite a large proportion of this
>>>>>>> commuter route.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You think there's a significant number of people who have a season to
>>>>>> Farringdon, and then use Oyster to PAYG to their final destination?
>>>>>> Rather than for example having a Travelcard season (or using capped PAYG
>>>>>> end-to-end)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, obviously the numbers are significant enough for them to have
>>>>> validators when changing to the Circle/Met lines.
>>>>>
>>>>> If theres a need for validators during that transfer, why on earth would
>>>>> transferring to the Liz be any different?
>>>>
>>>> TfL has accepted the need, and promised to install readers. In the
>>>> meantime, it's placed posters to warn affected Liz
>>>> pax to exit and enter through the surface gatelines.
>>>
>>> Yes I know… I got the impression that Roland was trying to say there was no
>>> need for them.
>>
>> I think he just fancies another argument; had you suggested that they
>> weren't needed, he'd no doubt have argued that they were.
>
> There's no *pressing* need. Just like they've decided long ago there's
> no similar need for validators to touch out of TfL-land onto
> National-Rail land at StP-Thameslink.

How would you get from a TfL platform to TL at St-P without touching out
and in? Or at Blackfriars? It's possible at Farringdon, but you'd have to
walk past yellow card validators to do it.

In message <t732oj$18tp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 18:34:59 on Mon, 30 May
2022, muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Mon, 30 May 2022 10:27:34 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t703eq$1ib3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 15:28:27 on Sun, 29 May
>>2022, muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Sun, 29 May 2022 10:48:28 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <t6v8g1$iu1$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:48:17 on Sun, 29 May
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>>4 seperate CPUs (1 for the printer, can't remember what the others
>>>>>were for)
>>
>>>>>so I'm pretty sure they're up to the job.
>>>>
>>>>I'll remember that next time I'm in a shop touching-in for the bus
>>>>stopped waiting for me outside.
>>>
>>>So you think the shop ones were some kind of supercomputer version and the
>>>bus ones have what, a 4004 inside?
>>
>>They won't have the same processing power, that's for sure. As the bus
>>pads aren't required to do any actual fares calculations, they could
>>easily be some kind of dedicated mainly-comms chip.
>
>Even dedicated comms chips these days usually contain an ARM cortex core
>or similar. Back in the day it would have been a PIC which are more than
>capable of holding their own against old school CPUs so I imagine the bus
>pads are more than capable.

Even if no-one has written suitable software for them? Anyway, you are
tilting at windmills, as usual; the system works the way it works, and
no amount of "well it might possibly be persuaded to work differently"
will cut any ice with the transport companies.
--
Roland Perry