On 27/05/2022 00:53, Recliner wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/05/2022 12:38, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or you do pay
>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>
>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>> Brighton.
>>>
>>> Not quite. You can use a contactless card to travel to Reading, but not
>>> to Peterborough or Brighton.
>>
>> That will change at some point, no doubt.
>>
>> Is there a tentative time that TfL is due to take over Thameslink? They
>> would like that, AIUI.
>
> No and no.

Really? I thought that this was something that TfL had their eyes on for
eventual assimilation.

>
>>
>> That and the Lizzie would make it very similar to the RER.
>
> TfL didn't want TL. It wanted the commuter routes that were mainly in the
> GLC area.
>

Does it still want the Northern City Line?

In message <t6o727$1q7d$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:40:55 on Thu, 26 May
2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>On 25/05/2022 12:38, Recliner wrote:
>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>you do pay
>>>> at your destination?
>>>
>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>> Brighton.
>> Not quite. You can use a contactless card to travel to Reading, but
>>not to Peterborough or Brighton.
>
>That will change at some point, no doubt.
>
>Is there a tentative time that TfL is due to take over Thameslink? They
>would like that, AIUI.

You'd have to ask the people from Peterborough to Brighton if they
thought the London Mayor was the right person to be running their
trains. Not having a vote, and all that.
--
Roland Perry

In message <1782539473.675272125.618935.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
at 15:36:16 on Thu, 26 May 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6nvqt$mj$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:37:33 on Thu, 26 May 2022,
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6nbra$l8s$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:56:26 on Thu, 26 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension
>>>>>>>> ticket from or you do pay at your destination?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through ticket
>>>>>>> barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway, Stratford and
>>>>>>> Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who use the Romford
>>>>>>> Upminster Overground route). Those issues have existed since those
>>>>>>> routes were transfered to TfL rail some years ago, and whatever
>>>>>>> solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth line re-branding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube transfers),
>>>>>> but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St, I'd have to
>>>>>> pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern and the
>>>>>> Elizabeth Line, at TCR?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, a longish underground walk, but no barriers. All the shared stations
>>>>> have direct connections to the other lines in the same station, with no
>>>>> barriers. There may be some pink Oyster readers, though I didn't notice
>>>>> any.
>>>>
>>>> Pink Oyster readers tend to be a stations outside the central zones, so
>>>> you can flag for example that you made a trip using the Overground to
>>>> circumnavigate London, which in manyy cases is cheaper than going
>>>> through the centre.
>>>>
>>>>>> Similarly at Farringdon, having boarded a Circle train at Barbican.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why wouldn't you just board the Liz at Barbican?
>>>>
>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>> Barbican.
>>>
>>> <https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/1529167892952059906>
>>
>> Sounds like yet another road-trip required. If someone enters the
>> Barbican sub-surface station, can they get to a Farringdon-Liz-line
>> platform?
>
>Yes, IF they know about the ‘secret’ lift from the westbound platform.

Assuming that like almost everyone they don't, they'll travel to
Farringdon and change.

Which just like if they do (know about the secret lift), requires buying
a ticket at Barbican tube station for travel to Reading.

So the question remains: is there a TVM for them to buy that?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6o8mp$o9d$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:08:57 on Thu, 26 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:46:33 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <t6ndqf$1jaf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:07 on Thu, 26 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>>changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>>>Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>>you do pay
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>at your destination?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>>zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>>Brighton.
>>>>>
>>>>>Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>
>>>>What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>>central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>
>>>>It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>>FCC).
>>>
>>>Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>>>of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>>to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>>there?
>>
>>Are you saying that the ticket machines at (say) Barbican will not sell
>>you a £28.50 single to Reading [see TfL fare-finder site], but *will*
>>sell you a £14.40 single to Luton Airport Parkway?
>>
>>In both cases with one change, at Farringdon?
>
>No.

Just to be clear, you are confirming it will sell the Luton Airport
Parkway ticket, and won't sell the Reading one? Have you checked sine
the EL opened.

>Get some new glasses.

Field glasses? I'm at least 50 miles away.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>station such as
>>
>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>
>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>
>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>of other
>>
>>> people.
>>
>>also no contactless credit card?
>
>Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a couple of
>hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>Oh sure,
>if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid. Took god knows
>how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs entering a
>PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.

"all", "it" ...?

>>also considered but rejected prepaid card?
>
>Never heard of them.

I'm surprised at that.

>>> IOW they haven't thought this through.
>>>
>>
>>I am unclear what you want them to do - except perhaps to spend a great
>>deal of money to accommodate a minority of people who wish to use a
>>legacy system
>
>Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can persuade
>NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
>walk in the park.

Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6obv1$t3g$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:04:33 on Thu, 26 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-05-26 09:46:33 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t6ndqf$1jaf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:07 on Thu, 26 May
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>>>Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of
>>>>>>>zone station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the
>>>>>>>extension ticket from or you do pay
>>>>>>> at your destination?

>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the
>>>>>>Oyster zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like
>>>>>>Peterborough or Brighton.

>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL

>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly
>>>>substantial central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>
>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents
>>>>like FCC).

>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to
>>>places outside of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my
>>>local tube station and want to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am
>>>I supposed to buy a ticket to get there?

>> Are you saying that the ticket machines at (say) Barbican will not
>>sell you a £28.50 single to Reading [see TfL fare-finder site], but
>>*will* sell you a £14.40 single to Luton Airport Parkway?
>
>It is of course absurd that they can't.

I'm still waiting for a plausible reason why the Barbican machines would
sell a ticket for a trip that's almost entirely Thameslink, but not sell
one that's tube+EL.

>The ticket machine at the bus stop across the street from me here in CH
>will sell me any ticket between any two places in all fo CH, or to
>certain international destinations nearby, or a number of other options
>like day passes, weekly seasons, combined public transport and ski lift
>passes etc.

CH has long been a more enthusiastic public transport operator than the
UK, and hence the cheap fares. However, I remember when those bus-stop
machines only took coins, so it hasn't always been rosy.

>That's not from the ticket machine in the nearby station, that's the
>ticket machine at a bus stop. It's been like that for the better part
>of a decade (and from railway station ticket machines for longer than
>that). And before you launch into different TOCs, TfL and the like,
>this includes more than a dozen Verkhersverbünde, half a dozen standard
>gauge main line railways and countless narrow gauge mountain railways,
>urban tramways, ship operators, local bus companies, cable car operators etc.

Aren't most of those state operated? Getting a bus ticket machine for
one privatised operator in Kent to sell you a ticket for a different
operator like Nottingham Tram, would require considerable amounts of
extra joined-up-ness.

And despite the richness of modes in .CH, the total network is much
smaller than the British one.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6p3pq$2u1$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:51:22 on Thu, 26 May
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6ng25$h7s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:08:17 on Thu, 26 May
>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2022-05-26 05:53:55 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the
>>>>>> extension ticket from or you do pay at your destination?
>>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through
>>>>> ticket barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway,
>>>>> Stratford and Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who
>>>>> use the Romford Upminster Overground route). Those issues have
>>>>> existed since those routes were transfered to TfL rail some years
>>>>> ago, and whatever solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth
>>>>>
>>
>>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube
>>>> transfers), but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St,
>>>> I'd have to pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern
>>>> and the Elizabeth Line, at TCR? Similarly at Farringdon, having
>>>> boarded a Circle train at Barbican.
>>>
>>> You can't get an Elizabeth line tran from any of those stations that
>>> leaves the LU zones, the furthest you can go is Abbey Wood (zone 4).
>>
>> One day soon you will. And is the transfer today at Paddington an OSI,
>> or are there direct routes between the two sections today.
>
>I guess it's a 'within station OSI' - you pass through two barrier lines,
>and across a non-ticketted area, but without leaving the station building.

OK, so what characteristic of that means TfL reportedly doesn't want to
sell a through ticket from Barbican (Circle Line) to Reading?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>> Barbican.
>>>
>>> They're nearby.
>>>
>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>
>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>
>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>
>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>
>No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.

The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.

>> I've used the Barbican
>> Subsurface station quite a bit, mainly for destinations to the
>> north from there (so even further from Liz-Line Moorgate, or is it
>> Liverpool St [West entrance] ) .
>
>Why not use the Barbican Liz entrance, as I suggested?

Because that's going to be 15 minutes walk from my typical destination
(let's pick something random nearby - Italia Conti Academy, 23 Goswell
Road)

--
Roland Perry

On 2022-05-27 05:23:11 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t6obv1$t3g$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:04:33 on Thu, 26 May
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-05-26 09:46:33 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t6ndqf$1jaf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:07 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension
>>>>>>>> ticket from or you do pay
>>>>>>>> at your destination?
>
>>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough
>>>>>>> or Brighton.
>
>>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>
>>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>>
>>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like FCC).
>
>>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places
>>>> outside of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube
>>>> station and want to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed
>>>> to buy a ticket to get there?
>
>>> Are you saying that the ticket machines at (say) Barbican will not sell
>>> you a £28.50 single to Reading [see TfL fare-finder site], but *will*
>>> sell you a £14.40 single to Luton Airport Parkway?
>>
>> It is of course absurd that they can't.
>
> I'm still waiting for a plausible reason why the Barbican machines
> would sell a ticket for a trip that's almost entirely Thameslink, but
> not sell one that's tube+EL.
>
>> The ticket machine at the bus stop across the street from me here in CH
>> will sell me any ticket between any two places in all fo CH, or to
>> certain international destinations nearby, or a number of other options
>> like day passes, weekly seasons, combined public transport and ski lift
>> passes etc.
>
> CH has long been a more enthusiastic public transport operator than the
> UK, and hence the cheap fares. However, I remember when those bus-stop
> machines only took coins, so it hasn't always been rosy.

Cheap fares? 'aving a laugh.

>> That's not from the ticket machine in the nearby station, that's the
>> ticket machine at a bus stop. It's been like that for the better part
>> of a decade (and from railway station ticket machines for longer than
>> that). And before you launch into different TOCs, TfL and the like,
>> this includes more than a dozen Verkhersverbünde, half a dozen standard
>> gauge main line railways and countless narrow gauge mountain railways,
>> urban tramways, ship operators, local bus companies, cable car
>> operators etc.
>
> Aren't most of those state operated? Getting a bus ticket machine for
> one privatised operator in Kent to sell you a ticket for a different
> operator like Nottingham Tram, would require considerable amounts of
> extra joined-up-ness.
>
> And despite the richness of modes in .CH, the total network is much
> smaller than the British one.

In terms of track miles, it's a factor of 3, so a bit smaller, but not
massively smaller.

Robin

On 2022-05-26 22:02:05 +0000, Sam Wilson said:

> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-05-26 09:46:33 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t6ndqf$1jaf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:07 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>>
>>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>>
>>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>>> FCC).
>>>>
>>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>>>> of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>>> there?
>>>
>>> Are you saying that the ticket machines at (say) Barbican will not sell
>>> you a £28.50 single to Reading [see TfL fare-finder site], but *will*
>>> sell you a £14.40 single to Luton Airport Parkway?
>>
>> It is of course absurd that they can't. The ticket machine at the bus
>> stop across the street from me here in CH will sell me any ticket
>> between any two places in all fo CH, or to certain international
>> destinations nearby, or a number of other options like day passes,
>> weekly seasons, combined public transport and ski lift passes etc.
>> That's not from the ticket machine in the nearby station, that's the
>> ticket machine at a bus stop. It's been like that for the better part
>> of a decade (and from railway station ticket machines for longer than
>> that). And before you launch into different TOCs, TfL and the like,
>> this includes more than a dozen Verkhersverbünde, half a dozen standard
>> gauge main line railways and countless narrow gauge mountain railways,
>> urban tramways, ship operators, local bus companies, cable car
>> operators etc.
>
> And on any particular date?

Definitely possible for future dates, not tested to see just how far
into the future they offer.

Robin

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 27/05/2022 00:53, Recliner wrote:
>> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 25/05/2022 12:38, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or you do pay
>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>
>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>
>>>> Not quite. You can use a contactless card to travel to Reading, but not
>>>> to Peterborough or Brighton.
>>>
>>> That will change at some point, no doubt.
>>>
>>> Is there a tentative time that TfL is due to take over Thameslink? They
>>> would like that, AIUI.
>>
>> No and no.
>
> Really? I thought that this was something that TfL had their eyes on for
> eventual assimilation.

No, it would never have been a good fit with TfL.

>
>
>>
>>>
>>> That and the Lizzie would make it very similar to the RER.
>>
>> TfL didn't want TL. It wanted the commuter routes that were mainly in the
>> GLC area.
>>
>
> Does it still want the Northern City Line?

That one would be a good fit with TfL, but I don't think the mayor is
currently pursuing anything beyond basic survival funding for TfL. It's
basically running on empty, with the DfT providing short-term, emergency
bail-outs.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>
>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>
>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>
>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>
>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>
>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>
> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.

Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz entrances
are two minutes walk apart.

>
>>> I've used the Barbican
>>> Subsurface station quite a bit, mainly for destinations to the
>>> north from there (so even further from Liz-Line Moorgate, or is it
>>> Liverpool St [West entrance] ) .
>>
>> Why not use the Barbican Liz entrance, as I suggested?
>
> Because that's going to be 15 minutes walk from my typical destination
> (let's pick something random nearby - Italia Conti Academy, 23 Goswell
> Road)

Google says it's it's a five minutes walk from there to the Liz Barbican
entrance.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 18:49:30 +0200
Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>On 2022-05-26 16:08:05 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 11:55:05 +0200
>> Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-26 08:30:07 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>Oyster,
>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such
>as
>>>
>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>
>>>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>>
>>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>>
>>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>>> FCC).
>>>>
>>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places
>outside
>>>> of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and
>want
>>>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>>> there?
>>>
>>> This is not a new problem. There are lots of locations on the network
>>> where it is possible to make a transfer between TfL services and NR
>>> services where Oyster isn't valid for the full journey. This includes
>>
>> Which part of Crossrail *IS* a TfL service is confusing you?
>
>Crossrail is also an NR service (as is Overground).

Who is responsible for it?

Right.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 19:05:51 +0200
Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>On 2022-05-26 16:16:04 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 14:47:48 +0100
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>Oyster,
>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such
>as
>>>
>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number of
>other
>>>
>>>> people.
>>>
>>> Would have thought you won't be in that situation long, assuming you
>>> have any bank cards as they are all converting to contactless on
>>> renewal. In fact I'd thought they had all done that by now.
>>
>> Easily disabled. Cut the antenna.
>
>I am given to believe a breif spell in a microwave oven gets the job done.

That'll destroy the chip too which is not what I want.

On Thu, 26 May 2022 18:48:39 +0100
Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>On 26/05/2022 17:11, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:53:12 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6nevl$9gu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:49:57 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Use TfL's preferred ticketing mode, contactless cards (including
>>>> smartphones). It's not going to reopen ticket offices, and apparently can't
>
>>>> expand Oyster zonal coverage.
>>>
>>> Have TfL increased the "maximum fare" penalty. Shenfield to Reading is
>>> Ł29.60 and if you touch in at Shenfield then never touch out, will they
>>> charge you that, some other sum, or what?
>>
>> Some guy used that sort of thing as a fare dodge scam a few years ago. His
>> local NR station didn't have any barriers so he got on the train from
>> godknowswhereville to some london station then just touched with his Oyster
>> which charged him the max 10 quid penalty fare which was considerably less
>> that it would have cost for the journey.
>>
>> He got found out but not as quick as you'd think (one would assume the Oyster
>
>> system would flag up the same card constantly having a penalty). IIRC he
>> scammed the TOC of something like 40K. Was in the papers.
>
>Yes, we discussed the case at the time. Only £7.20 back in 2014. He got
>off with paying the evaded fares plus £450 costs, but lost his career.
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30475232>

Seems pretty harsh given how many much worse crooks work in the city and
even run many institutions. But I suppose if you're daft enough to get caught
you can't have much judgement.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:06:22 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6o8h6$l6p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:05:58 on Thu, 26 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Thu, 26 May 2022 10:29:58 +0100
>>Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>On 26/05/2022 10:19, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 08:49:57 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 18:53:31 +0100
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 09:33:41 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>Oyster,
>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>>>station such as
>>>
>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A NR booking office before you board.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thats helpful if I'm boarding at a tube station.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just use a contactless card! Oyster, with its hard-coded zone and logic
>>>>> limitations, is now something of a legacy app.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have a contactless bank card along with a significant number
>>>>of other
>>>
>>>> people.
>>>
>>>also no contactless credit card?
>>
>>Nope. My wife lost her contactless in 2020 and got ripped off for a couple of
>>hundred quid in an hour. Whats the problem you think, bank will refund.
>>Oh sure,
>>if you could ever get through to their fraud line during covid. Took god knows
>
>>how long to sort it. I decided in the meantime I can spend 10 secs entering a
>>PIN and disabled all my contactless cards. Haven't used it since.
>
>"all", "it" ...?

Yes, "all" contactless cards and "it" the method of payment.

>>Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can persuade
>>NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
>>walk in the park.
>
>Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.

Says who?

On Thu, 26 May 2022 13:37:34 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6nevl$9gu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:49:57 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>>>> FCC).
>>>>>
>>>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>>>>> of London.
>>>>
>>>> But what happens if you board at an LU-only station, and transfer to TL?
>>>> Do you have to exit at the interchange station, buy your TL ticket, and
>>>> re-enter?
>>>>
>>>>> TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>>>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>>>> there?
>>>>
>>>> Use TfL's preferred ticketing mode, contactless cards (including
>>>> smartphones). It's not going to reopen ticket offices, and apparently can't
>>>> expand Oyster zonal coverage.
>>>
>>> Have TfL increased the "maximum fare" penalty. Shenfield to Reading is
>>> £29.60 and if you touch in at Shenfield then never touch out, will they
>>> charge you that, some other sum, or what?
>>>
>>> As far as I can see the max fare for starting at Barbican would be
>>> £8.90, and Reading is almost as expensive to get to as from Shenfield.
>>
>> Someone has analysed that cross-London Liz journeys are very expensive,
>> because of the way TfL and NR fares interact, so it's much cheaper to break
>> the journey at a station at the edge of the zonal area, such as Hayes &
>> Harlington.
>>
>>
>
>I've seen Slough mentioned as a place to split tickets.

No, that doesn't work very nearly as well.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 06:33:41 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t6p3pq$2u1$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:51:22 on Thu, 26 May
>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6ng25$h7s$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:08:17 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2022-05-26 05:53:55 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t6lpo0$ang$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:41:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 2022-05-25 09:33:41 +0000, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an
>>>>>>> Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone
>>>>>>> station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to get the
>>>>>>> extension ticket from or you do pay at your destination?
>>>>>> The only places you can do that without having to pass through
>>>>>> ticket barriers and pass by ticket machines are Ealing Broadway,
>>>>>> Stratford and Romford (the latter for the handful of passengers who
>>>>>> use the Romford Upminster Overground route). Those issues have
>>>>>> existed since those routes were transfered to TfL rail some years
>>>>>> ago, and whatever solution (or lack thereof) remains under Elizabeth
>>>>>>
>>>
>>>>> I was going to post something like that (unbarriered NR/Tube
>>>>> transfers), but is it the case that if I got an a tube at Goodge St,
>>>>> I'd have to pass a barrier line in the passageway between the Northern
>>>>> and the Elizabeth Line, at TCR? Similarly at Farringdon, having
>>>>> boarded a Circle train at Barbican.
>>>>
>>>> You can't get an Elizabeth line tran from any of those stations that
>>>> leaves the LU zones, the furthest you can go is Abbey Wood (zone 4).
>>>
>>> One day soon you will. And is the transfer today at Paddington an OSI,
>>> or are there direct routes between the two sections today.
>>
>>I guess it's a 'within station OSI' - you pass through two barrier lines,
>>and across a non-ticketted area, but without leaving the station building.
>
>OK, so what characteristic of that means TfL reportedly doesn't want to
>sell a through ticket from Barbican (Circle Line) to Reading?

It's many years since I've needed to use an LU TVM, but I wonder if all LU machines now sell paper tickets to all
destinations served by TfL trains? If so, it may be possible to buy a paper ticket from any LU station to Reading.

In message <t6qb61$164$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:03:29 on Fri, 27 May
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>>Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can persuade
>>>NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
>>>walk in the park.
>>
>>Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>
>Says who?

Anyone familiar with the card's architecture. It only has a 4-bit field
for the number of zones.

See this video from 2 minutes in:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0xDbHj4K_E>

As for proposed Zone 15 (Iver to Reading) I suspect it's a commercial
decision not to make such a large distance a single zone. Fares to all
the stations [from London] would be the same, as would fares between any
pair of stations in the zone. Too many winners or losers depending on
what fare you chose.
--
Roland Perry

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 May 2022 13:37:34 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6nevl$9gu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:49:57 on Thu, 26 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>>>>> FCC).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>>>>>> of London.
>>>>>
>>>>> But what happens if you board at an LU-only station, and transfer to TL?
>>>>> Do you have to exit at the interchange station, buy your TL ticket, and
>>>>> re-enter?
>>>>>
>>>>>> TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>>>>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>>>>> there?
>>>>>
>>>>> Use TfL's preferred ticketing mode, contactless cards (including
>>>>> smartphones). It's not going to reopen ticket offices, and apparently can't
>>>>> expand Oyster zonal coverage.
>>>>
>>>> Have TfL increased the "maximum fare" penalty. Shenfield to Reading is
>>>> £29.60 and if you touch in at Shenfield then never touch out, will they
>>>> charge you that, some other sum, or what?
>>>>
>>>> As far as I can see the max fare for starting at Barbican would be
>>>> £8.90, and Reading is almost as expensive to get to as from Shenfield.
>>>
>>> Someone has analysed that cross-London Liz journeys are very expensive,
>>> because of the way TfL and NR fares interact, so it's much cheaper to break
>>> the journey at a station at the edge of the zonal area, such as Hayes &
>>> Harlington.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I've seen Slough mentioned as a place to split tickets.
>
> No, that doesn't work very nearly as well.
>

It definitely has been mentioned as a place to split

<https://twitter.com/suicide_boi/status/1527309201713684480>

<https://twitter.com/zeibura/status/1529793966174089217>

<https://twitter.com/respros/status/1529722381635309568>

<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/confusing-crossrail-tickets-mean-passengers-can-save-10-getting/>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Fri, 27 May 2022 13:02:19 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 May 2022 13:37:34 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6nevl$9gu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:49:57 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using an Oyster,
>>>>>>>>>>> changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out of zone station such as
>>>>>>>>>>> Reading? Where are you supposed to get the extension ticket from or
>>>>>>>>>>> you do pay
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within the Oyster
>>>>>>>>>> zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside, like Peterborough or
>>>>>>>>>> Brighton.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly substantial
>>>>>>>> central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents like
>>>>>>>> FCC).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to places outside
>>>>>>> of London.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But what happens if you board at an LU-only station, and transfer to TL?
>>>>>> Do you have to exit at the interchange station, buy your TL ticket, and
>>>>>> re-enter?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my local tube station and want
>>>>>>> to travel to Reading via Liz Line how am I supposed to buy a ticket to get
>>>>>>> there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Use TfL's preferred ticketing mode, contactless cards (including
>>>>>> smartphones). It's not going to reopen ticket offices, and apparently can't
>>>>>> expand Oyster zonal coverage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have TfL increased the "maximum fare" penalty. Shenfield to Reading is
>>>>> £29.60 and if you touch in at Shenfield then never touch out, will they
>>>>> charge you that, some other sum, or what?
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I can see the max fare for starting at Barbican would be
>>>>> £8.90, and Reading is almost as expensive to get to as from Shenfield.
>>>>
>>>> Someone has analysed that cross-London Liz journeys are very expensive,
>>>> because of the way TfL and NR fares interact, so it's much cheaper to break
>>>> the journey at a station at the edge of the zonal area, such as Hayes &
>>>> Harlington.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've seen Slough mentioned as a place to split tickets.
>>
>> No, that doesn't work very nearly as well.
>>
>
>It definitely has been mentioned as a place to split
>
><https://twitter.com/suicide_boi/status/1527309201713684480>
>
><https://twitter.com/zeibura/status/1529793966174089217>
>
><https://twitter.com/respros/status/1529722381635309568>
>
><https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/confusing-crossrail-tickets-mean-passengers-can-save-10-getting/>

It probably depends on the destinations. I was checking Shenfield to Reading, where Slough wasn't nearly as good as West
Drayton. But, even Reading to Canary Wharf, West Drayton is still a better splitting station than Slough.

In message <t6psht$8g5$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:53:49 on Fri, 27 May
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-05-27 05:23:11 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t6obv1$t3g$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:04:33 on Thu, 26 May
>>2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2022-05-26 09:46:33 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <t6ndqf$1jaf$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:30:07 on Thu, 26
>>>>May 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 17:32:04 +0100
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t6lf2m$iks$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:39:18 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 25 May 2022 11:50:55 +0100
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t6kt5l$cp$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:33:41 on Wed, 25 May
>>>>>>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>> Whats the protocol if someone gets on at a tube station using
>>>>>>>>>an Oyster, changes to the elizabeth line then goes to an out
>>>>>>>>>of zone station such as Reading? Where are you supposed to
>>>>>>>>>get the extension ticket from or you do pay
>>>>>>>>> at your destination?
>>
>>>>>>>> Same as if you got on a Thameslink train at a station within
>>>>>>>>the Oyster zones, then attempted to exit at somewhere outside,
>>>>>>>>like Peterborough or Brighton.
>>
>>>>>>> Thameslink isn't part of TfL
>>
>>>>>> What's that got to do with it? Both lines have a fairly
>>>>>>substantial central portion where Oyster is accepted.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's worked for a long time for Thameslink (and former incumbents
>>>>>>like FCC).
>>
>>>>> Thameslink stations have ticket machines that sell tickets to
>>>>>places outside of London. TfL stations IME don't. If I go to my
>>>>>local tube station and want to travel to Reading via Liz Line how
>>>>>am I supposed to buy a ticket to get there?
>>
>>>> Are you saying that the ticket machines at (say) Barbican will not
>>>>sell you a £28.50 single to Reading [see TfL fare-finder site],
>>>>but *will* sell you a £14.40 single to Luton Airport Parkway?
>>> It is of course absurd that they can't.

>> I'm still waiting for a plausible reason why the Barbican machines
>>would sell a ticket for a trip that's almost entirely Thameslink, but
>>not sell one that's tube+EL.
>>
>>> The ticket machine at the bus stop across the street from me here in
>>>CH will sell me any ticket between any two places in all fo CH, or
>>>to certain international destinations nearby, or a number of other
>>>options like day passes, weekly seasons, combined public transport
>>>and ski lift passes etc.

>> CH has long been a more enthusiastic public transport operator than
>>the UK, and hence the cheap fares. However, I remember when those
>>bus-stop machines only took coins, so it hasn't always been rosy.
>
>Cheap fares? 'aving a laugh.

Subsidised by about three times as much as UK fares.

>>> That's not from the ticket machine in the nearby station, that's the
>>>ticket machine at a bus stop. It's been like that for the better part
>>>of a decade (and from railway station ticket machines for longer than
>>>that). And before you launch into different TOCs, TfL and the like,
>>>this includes more than a dozen Verkhersverbünde, half a dozen
>>>standard gauge main line railways and countless narrow gauge
>>>mountain railways, urban tramways, ship operators, local bus
>>>companies, cable car operators etc.
>> Aren't most of those state operated? Getting a bus ticket machine
>>for one privatised operator in Kent to sell you a ticket for a
>>different operator like Nottingham Tram, would require considerable
>>amounts of extra joined-up-ness.

>> And despite the richness of modes in .CH, the total network is much
>>smaller than the British one.
>
>In terms of track miles, it's a factor of 3, so a bit smaller, but not
>massively smaller.

How many cities the size of Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool,
Tyneside, Glasgow, Sheffield etc, with all their associated onward legs
by bus/tram, does CH have?

[I'm leaving out London, because I still think whole-CH public transport
is about that scale]
--
Roland Perry

In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>
>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>
>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>
>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>
>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>
>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>
>Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz entrances
>are two minutes walk apart.

Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
like). I can't see "Barbican" on the Liz Line maps.

But let's not beat this one to death, because the topic is through
ticketing from tube stations to Liz Line. How are you doing with St
Pauls to Reading? And would a ticket machine there sell a through
ticket?
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 27 May 2022 14:33:54 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t6q5gi$17d$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:42 on Fri, 27 May
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t6p44n$4mq$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:57:11 on Thu, 26 May
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t6nkmd$g1j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:25 on Thu, 26 May
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no Liz station co-located with the Subsurface station at
>>>>>>> Barbican.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They're nearby.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They're both the same station on the Liz.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you mean walk all the way through the Barbican site to Moorgate,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, use the Liz Barbican entrance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Google maps says it's an 11 minute walk.
>>>>
>>>> No, it says it's a two minute walk between the two entrances.
>>>
>>> The entrance to Barbican Tube station in Aldersgate St is not two
>>> minutes walk from *any* other station entrance. It's actually closer to
>>> Farringdon (7min) than Moorgate.
>>
>>Why do you keep mentioning Moorgate? The Barbican Circle and Liz entrances
>>are two minutes walk apart.
>
>Because that's where a Liz Line station is (Liverpool St West, if you
>like).

No, the nearest one is the Liz Barbican station entrance. Why keep referring to other, more distant stations? You might
as well tell us how many minutes walk it would be to Whitechapel — it's just as irrelevant.

> I can't see "Barbican" on the Liz Line maps.

Yet again, you're struggling with the concept of double-ended stations. Just because you've failed to find it on your
map doesn't mean it's not there.

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52097225392/in/album-72177720299244348/>

It's called Faringdon East Crossrail Station/Farringdon Elizabeth Line on Google Maps, and the address is 23 Long Lane,
Barbican, London EC1A 9HL. Hope that helps you with your expert pronouncements.

>
>But let's not beat this one to death, because the topic is through
>ticketing from tube stations to Liz Line. How are you doing with St
>Pauls to Reading? And would a ticket machine there sell a through
>ticket?

I don't know. As I've said in another post, I don't know what range of paper tickets LU TVMs sell.

On Fri, 27 May 2022 13:23:49 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <t6qb61$164$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 11:03:29 on Fri, 27 May
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>
>>>>Oh I dunno, extend Oyster to all the stations it serves? If they can
>persuade
>>>>NR to allow them to run 200m trains to Reading allowing Oyster should be a
>>>>walk in the park.
>>>
>>>Oyster is an old system which can only just cope with the number of
>>>zones it has at the moment. Adding more isn't possible.
>>
>>Says who?
>
>Anyone familiar with the card's architecture. It only has a 4-bit field
>for the number of zones.

I wonder if that still holds true for the 2nd version of the card they
issued. If so its a rather daft design decision. Still, they only seem to
have run out because of the perverse decision to allocate zones beyond 6 to
particular lines rather than to a radius distance from the centre.

>As for proposed Zone 15 (Iver to Reading) I suspect it's a commercial
>decision not to make such a large distance a single zone. Fares to all

See above.