<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the
>> private
>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it
>> since
>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>
>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>
>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>
>>
>> Currently, one
>
> Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?
>
>

NatWest at least

https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html

This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.

Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
debit card.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:49:23 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the
>>> private
>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it
>>> since
>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>
>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>
>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>>
>>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Currently, one
>>
>> Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?
>>
>>
>
>NatWest at least
>
>https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html
>
>This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
>
>Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
>debit card.

Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:49:23 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the
>>>> private
>>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it
>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>
>>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>>>
>>>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Currently, one
>>>
>>> Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> NatWest at least
>>
>> https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html
>>
>> This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
>>
>> Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
>> debit card.
>
> Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?

They’re probably thinking that the parents will control how much money goes
into the account and keep an eye on what goes out. So old fashioned.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 22/06/2022 09:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the
>> private
>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it
>> since
>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>
>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>
>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>
>>
>> Currently, one
>
> Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?
>

Don't know but I gather several do.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 22/06/2022 09:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:49:23 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the
>>>> private
>>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it
>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>
>>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>>>
>>>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Currently, one
>>>
>>> Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> NatWest at least
>>
>> https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html
>>
>> This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
>>
>> Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
>> debit card.
>
> Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?
>
>

About joining the real world.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:49:23 -0000 (UTC)
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 17:11:33 +0100
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own the
>>>>> private
>>>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to it
>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, one
>>>>
>>>> Really? Which bank issued an 11 year old with a debit card?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> NatWest at least
>>>
>>> https://www.natwest.com/current-accounts/adapt_account.html
>>>
>>> This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
>>>
>>> Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
>>> debit card.
>>
>> Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?
>
> They’re probably thinking that the parents will control how much money goes
> into the account and keep an eye on what goes out. So old fashioned.
>
> Sam
>

I don’t see what damage can be done. Such accounts won’t be allowed to go
into the red. With contactless travel the worst that can happen is payment
to TfL will bounce at the end of the day and the card will be rejected for
further travel. All other debit card transactions (well I suppose someone
will find an exception) are validated in real time for such cards.

I got my children bank accounts at the earliest possible opportunity, I
think it was 13 at the time. They got a card that worked in cash machines.
No debit card, as real time validation wasn’t really a thing back then.
They also got mobile phones at a young age and unfettered Internet access.
We’ve never found the need for parental Internet controls and never had a
problem. Both have grown up to have decent careers and stable
relationships. The moral panic of the media is overdone, particularly by
those with a vested interest. Best to teach children how to navigate the
pitfalls of life rather than to be controlling. Access to bank accounts is
part of that.

In message <t8ue5m$48l$1@dont-email.me>, at 07:51:34 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 22/06/2022 06:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t8sqjl$47l$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:11:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
>>>>>>>>>>>the private
>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services
>>>>>>>>>>to it since
>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing.
>>>>>>>>Talking of
>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for
>>>>>>>>first-time
>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>
>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an
>>>>>adult.
>>
>>>>  How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>
>>> Currently, one

>> Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist.
>
>My grand-daughter.

Presumably the former then (but we shouldn't make assumptions).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8ub9t$me2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:02:37 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t8sqjl$47l$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:11:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
>>>>>>>>>>> the private
>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to
>>>>>>>>>> it since
>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>
>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>
>>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>
>>> Currently, one
>>
>> Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
>> [adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
>> *not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
>> regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
>> interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
>> of practice with that!
>
>Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
>terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.

What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
them.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8un7p$rlg$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:26:17 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they
>>>thinking?
>>
>> They’re probably thinking that the parents will control how much money goes
>> into the account and keep an eye on what goes out. So old fashioned.
>
>I don’t see what damage can be done. Such accounts won’t be allowed to go
>into the red. With contactless travel the worst that can happen is payment
>to TfL will bounce at the end of the day and the card will be rejected for
>further travel. All other debit card transactions (well I suppose someone
>will find an exception) are validated in real time for such cards.
>
>I got my children bank accounts at the earliest possible opportunity, I
>think it was 13 at the time. They got a card that worked in cash machines.
>No debit card, as real time validation wasn’t really a thing back then.
>They also got mobile phones at a young age and unfettered Internet access.
>We’ve never found the need for parental Internet controls and never had a
>problem. Both have grown up to have decent careers and stable
>relationships. The moral panic of the media is overdone, particularly by
>those with a vested interest. Best to teach children how to navigate the
>pitfalls of life rather than to be controlling. Access to bank accounts is
>part of that.

You are clearly a well educated and caring parent. Sadly not all
children benefit from that.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8sg9h$c5q$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 13:15:29 on Tue, 21 Jun 2022,
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:

>>Unlike you, I actually travel to and from the airport by Tube, and I
>>can assure you that they're full of travellers new to London.
>
>The tube on the way in to London last week was indeed full of people
>with well worn luggage speaking languages I don't understand.

I posted the stats a couple of weeks ago, and only a quarter of people
leaving Heathrow by train do so not on the tube. However, that quarter
are still a significant number, and are prepared to pay more not to
mingle with what they perceive could be drunks, beggars and pickpockets
on the city's metro systems.

JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
specialist airport-express trains where they exist.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8so38$muq$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:40 on Tue, 21 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>> Wherever visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL
>>services will provide the more convenient, and often the faster,
>>link. All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route
>>
>
>Or indeed, use Google maps.

How short a memory. When I used Google maps recently to research a trip
from Gibraltar to Madrid, people mocked the way the result didn't accord
with their perception of the nearest railheads.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:34:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t8sg9h$c5q$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 13:15:29 on Tue, 21 Jun 2022,
>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>
>>>Unlike you, I actually travel to and from the airport by Tube, and I
>>>can assure you that they're full of travellers new to London.
>>
>>The tube on the way in to London last week was indeed full of people
>>with well worn luggage speaking languages I don't understand.
>
>I posted the stats a couple of weeks ago, and only a quarter of people
>leaving Heathrow by train do so not on the tube. However, that quarter
>are still a significant number, and are prepared to pay more not to
>mingle with what they perceive could be drunks, beggars and pickpockets
>on the city's metro systems.

Do we know how the heavy rail total broke down between HEx and TfL Rail?

>
>JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>specialist airport-express trains where they exist.

The New York Subway isn't a good way of getting to JFK.

On 22/06/2022 11:27, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t8ub9t$me2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:02:37 on Wed, 22 Jun
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
>>> [adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
>>> *not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
>>> regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
>>> interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
>>> of practice with that!
>>
>> Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing
>> number of
>> terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.
>
> What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
> support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
> them.

Retailers are far more likely to support magstripe cards if potential
customers have them, and most UK retailers deal mainly with Brits.

In message <t8sqdd$68r$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:08:13 on Tue, 21 Jun
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> Unlike you, I actually travel to and from the airport by Tube,
>>
>> Why do you say "unlike", I've travelled dozens of times. I've recounted
>> here how Piccadilly from Kings Cross is probably the best. But I'm a
>> local, this thread is mainly about foreigners in a strange country.
>>
>>> and I can assure you that they're full of travellers new
>>> to London. I bet far more such travellers use the Tube than HEx.
>>
>> I think I've cited the figures (about a week ago) and it was 20% tube,
>> 8% heavy rail. But how many of those 20% are the sort of travellers who
>> wouldn't attempt the local commuter transport, and eagerly use the
>> Airport Express rather than take a cab?
>>
>>> And the EL will soon take away most of the remaining HEx business,
>>> given its greater frequency and far better connectivity. Wherever
>>> visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL services
>>> will provide the more convenient, and often the faster, link.
>>
>> I doubt that will happen because EL is a commuter line and not an
>> Airport Express.
>
>More trains from the same platforms, with a much longer list of direct
>destinations on offer.

But still not what international passengers are looking for.

>>> All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route maps.
>>
>> Which are mind-boggling complicated for someone who has never been to
>> London before. They stagger off the plane, aren't interested in Googling
>> how to get to the centre, but have heard of the Airport Express train
>> and like they do in other strange cities, head for that.
>
>You still seem to be living in some dimly-remembered former era when you
>still travelled, when nobody knew about researching trips on the
>new-fangled internet.

Oh do give it a rest. You can't possibly believe that's true, or if you
do your perception of time is even more warped than usual. I last flew
out of Heathrow not long before lockdown, used the Piccadilly Line, and
guess what, I extensively researched my destination online and came up
pretty blank.

So as a seasoned international traveller I did what we always do, and
rather than get stuck on a local bus with drunks, pickpockets and
beggars, I took a taxi from the airport to the city centre.

While I was there I eventually penetrated the local commuter transport
system, understood its considerable foibles and ticketing
idiosyncrasies, and at the end of the trip just as an experiment took
what purported to be an airport express bus. They lied. It was just a
regular one, uncomfortable and slow and no provision for luggage.

Meanwhile, people arriving at Heathrow or Gatwick (and to a lesser
extent Stansted) will see what they recognise as a proper airport
express train, waiting on the platform, no rush to get aboard, plenty of
luggage space, grippers who are sympathetic to the needs of visitors,
and grab that with both hands.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 13:33:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t8sqdd$68r$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:08:13 on Tue, 21 Jun
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> Unlike you, I actually travel to and from the airport by Tube,
>>>
>>> Why do you say "unlike", I've travelled dozens of times. I've recounted
>>> here how Piccadilly from Kings Cross is probably the best. But I'm a
>>> local, this thread is mainly about foreigners in a strange country.
>>>
>>>> and I can assure you that they're full of travellers new
>>>> to London. I bet far more such travellers use the Tube than HEx.
>>>
>>> I think I've cited the figures (about a week ago) and it was 20% tube,
>>> 8% heavy rail. But how many of those 20% are the sort of travellers who
>>> wouldn't attempt the local commuter transport, and eagerly use the
>>> Airport Express rather than take a cab?
>>>
>>>> And the EL will soon take away most of the remaining HEx business,
>>>> given its greater frequency and far better connectivity. Wherever
>>>> visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL services
>>>> will provide the more convenient, and often the faster, link.
>>>
>>> I doubt that will happen because EL is a commuter line and not an
>>> Airport Express.
>>
>>More trains from the same platforms, with a much longer list of direct
>>destinations on offer.
>
>But still not what international passengers are looking for.
>
>>>> All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route maps.
>>>
>>> Which are mind-boggling complicated for someone who has never been to
>>> London before. They stagger off the plane, aren't interested in Googling
>>> how to get to the centre, but have heard of the Airport Express train
>>> and like they do in other strange cities, head for that.
>>
>>You still seem to be living in some dimly-remembered former era when you
>>still travelled, when nobody knew about researching trips on the
>>new-fangled internet.
>
>Oh do give it a rest. You can't possibly believe that's true, or if you
>do your perception of time is even more warped than usual. I last flew
>out of Heathrow not long before lockdown, used the Piccadilly Line, and
>guess what, I extensively researched my destination online and came up
>pretty blank.

Surely, several years before lockdown?

>
>So as a seasoned international traveller I did what we always do, and
>rather than get stuck on a local bus with drunks, pickpockets and
>beggars, I took a taxi from the airport to the city centre.
>
>While I was there I eventually penetrated the local commuter transport
>system, understood its considerable foibles and ticketing
>idiosyncrasies, and at the end of the trip just as an experiment took
>what purported to be an airport express bus. They lied. It was just a
>regular one, uncomfortable and slow and no provision for luggage.
>
>Meanwhile, people arriving at Heathrow or Gatwick (and to a lesser
>extent Stansted) will see what they recognise as a proper airport
>express train, waiting on the platform, no rush to get aboard, plenty of
>luggage space, grippers who are sympathetic to the needs of visitors,
>and grab that with both hands.

They're more likely to see a different, more modern, purple train in the same Heathrow platform, that's far more likely
to take them close to where they want to go. For example, if they arrive in T4, they'll only see EL trains. Why on earth
would they get off at T23 to wait for a train that's much less likely to go where they want to go than the one they're
already on (and which also goes to Paddington)?

In message <t8v23h$aul$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:31:45 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 22/06/2022 11:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t8ub9t$me2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:02:37 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
>>>> [adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
>>>> *not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
>>>> regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
>>>> interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
>>>> of practice with that!
>>>
>>> Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing
>>>number of terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a
>>>mag stripe.

>> What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who
>>still support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly
>>irrelevant to them.
>
>Retailers are far more likely to support magstripe cards if potential
>customers have them, and most UK retailers deal mainly with Brits.

We didn't encounter any serious retailers who couldn't cope, even if not
every staffer could cope.

In this context TfL is apparently not a "serious retailer".
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8t6np$sud$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:38:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>A huge number of Heathrow users are actually Brits and they will drift to
>the EL. HEx doesn’t really take you to a very useful part of London for an
>inbound tourist. If the HEx was truly THE solution for the boggled tourist
>they wouldn’t need all these high pressure touts at Heathrow.

The thing about HEx is that international travellers perceive is as part
of the airport experience. Inbound not quite as much as when outbound
and you could check in and deposit your luggage at Paddington, but still
part of the "airport bubble" rather than the city bubble.

Remember that HEx was only ever, and continues to be, not an alternative
for other public transport, but simply a special visitor-friendly train
people can get which is an alternative to a taxi. With admittedly
another taxi onward from Paddington.

I continue to be frustrated why this fundamental business model that's
so well documented, is so misunderstood.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 13:40:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t8t6np$sud$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:38:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>A huge number of Heathrow users are actually Brits and they will drift to
>>the EL. HEx doesn’t really take you to a very useful part of London for an
>>inbound tourist. If the HEx was truly THE solution for the boggled tourist
>>they wouldn’t need all these high pressure touts at Heathrow.
>
>The thing about HEx is that international travellers perceive is as part
>of the airport experience. Inbound not quite as much as when outbound
>and you could check in and deposit your luggage at Paddington, but still
>part of the "airport bubble" rather than the city bubble.
>
>Remember that HEx was only ever, and continues to be, not an alternative
>for other public transport, but simply a special visitor-friendly train
>people can get which is an alternative to a taxi. With admittedly
>another taxi onward from Paddington.
>
>I continue to be frustrated why this fundamental business model that's
>so well documented, is so misunderstood.

Because it simply isn't an alternative to a taxi. The taxi will take you, your companions and your luggage directly from
the terminal to the entrance of your destination. No maps to study, no long walks, no manhandling your bags on and off
trains, no train schedules to worry about. The HEx experience isn't remotely like that. It's far closer to other public
transport than it is to a taxi.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t8so38$muq$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:40 on Tue, 21 Jun
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> Wherever visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL
>>> services will provide the more convenient, and often the faster,
>>> link. All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route
>>>
>>
>> Or indeed, use Google maps.
>
> How short a memory. When I used Google maps recently to research a trip
> from Gibraltar to Madrid, people mocked the way the result didn't accord
> with their perception of the nearest railheads.

I wasn't paying too much attention to that thread but IIRC it was a very
different situation; wasn't the question "closest station to" (ie straight
line distance) and you used Google maps to tell you shortest journey time?
Which, depending on geography and timetables, may very well be different
answers.

Google maps isn't perfect; some cities have far more detailed public
transport information on that platform than others do (eg Poznań has real
time position of every tram shown on Google maps, Toruń doesn't even have
the tram stop locations shown!) - but in general I've found it pretty
reliable for travel planning.

And in London it *does* have good public transport data; and it will, very
effectively, show you the most effective route from Heathrow to your
hotel/office/meeting.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <t8v4a0$rdm$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:09:20 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t8so38$muq$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:40 on Tue, 21 Jun
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Wherever visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL
>>>> services will provide the more convenient, and often the faster,
>>>> link. All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or indeed, use Google maps.
>>
>> How short a memory. When I used Google maps recently to research a trip
>> from Gibraltar to Madrid, people mocked the way the result didn't accord
>> with their perception of the nearest railheads.
>
>I wasn't paying too much attention to that thread but IIRC it was a very
>different situation; wasn't the question "closest station to" (ie straight
>line distance) and you used Google maps to tell you shortest journey time?
>Which, depending on geography and timetables, may very well be different
>answers.

I asked it for the best public transport option, expecting perhaps that
for distances on hundreds of miles that might involve catching a train
from the nearest(sic) station.

>Google maps isn't perfect; some cities have far more detailed public
>transport information on that platform than others do (eg Pozna0 >time position of every tram shown on Google maps, Toru0 >the tram stop locations shown!) - but in general I've found it pretty
>reliable for travel planning.
>
>And in London it *does* have good public transport data; and it will, very
>effectively, show you the most effective route from Heathrow to your
>hotel/office/meeting.

But why would an international traveller visiting London for the first
time know that?

Anyway, and I haven't cheated, I tried this straw poll just now:

----

2:40 PM

Heathrow Terminal 5
Longford, Hounslow TW6 2GA
WalkWalk
About 2 min, 338 ft
2:42 PM
Heathrow Terminal 5
Train Heathrow Express London Paddington Train Station
21 min (2 stops)
Reduced service
3:03 PM
Paddington Station
WalkWalk
About 4 min
3:14 PM
Paddington
Underground Circle Circle Line via King's Cross
10 min (5 stops) · Platform 16
Significant delays
3:24 PM
King's Cross St. Pancras
Walk Walk
About 2 min
3:42 PM
King's Cross
Train Great Northern Kings Lynn
48 min (non-stop) · Platform 9
4:30 PM
Cambridge
4:30 PM

Cambridge

----

versus the next result:

2:54 PM

Heathrow Terminal 5
Longford, Hounslow TW6 2GA
2:54 PM
Heathrow Terminal 5
Underground Piccadilly Arnos Grove
1 hr 8 min (28 stops) ·
Reduced service
4:02 PM
Finsbury Park
Walk Walk
About 2 min
4:12 PM
Finsbury Park
Train Thameslink Cambridge
58 min (6 stops) · Platform 7
5:10 PM
Cambridge
5:10 PM

Cambridge

----

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t8ub9t$me2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:02:37 on Wed, 22 Jun
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t8sqjl$47l$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:11:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
>>>>>>>>>>>> the private
>>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to
>>>>>>>>>>> it since
>>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>
>>>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>>
>>>> Currently, one
>>>
>>> Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
>>> [adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
>>> *not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
>>> regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
>>> interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
>>> of practice with that!
>>
>> Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
>> terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.
>
> What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
> support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
> them.

You missed my point. My lack of mag stripe is indicative of the way things
are going. This is worldwide if you read up about it. There’s been an
explosion of small retailers taking cards via contactless. Few of these can
cope with mag stripes. The folk from the USA are going to have to get going
with the flow.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t8t6np$sud$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:38:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> A huge number of Heathrow users are actually Brits and they will drift to
>> the EL. HEx doesn’t really take you to a very useful part of London for an
>> inbound tourist. If the HEx was truly THE solution for the boggled tourist
>> they wouldn’t need all these high pressure touts at Heathrow.
>
> The thing about HEx is that international travellers perceive is as part
> of the airport experience. Inbound not quite as much as when outbound
> and you could check in and deposit your luggage at Paddington, but still
> part of the "airport bubble" rather than the city bubble.
>
> Remember that HEx was only ever, and continues to be, not an alternative
> for other public transport, but simply a special visitor-friendly train
> people can get which is an alternative to a taxi. With admittedly
> another taxi onward from Paddington.
>
> I continue to be frustrated why this fundamental business model that's
> so well documented, is so misunderstood.

The hard sell of HEx tickets at Heathrow (still happening the other week)
by touts on foot indicate that it is a business model that is having
trouble selling itself.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t8so38$muq$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:40 on Tue, 21 Jun
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Wherever visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL
>>>> services will provide the more convenient, and often the faster,
>>>> link. All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route
>>>>
>>>
>>> Or indeed, use Google maps.
>>
>> How short a memory. When I used Google maps recently to research a trip
>> from Gibraltar to Madrid, people mocked the way the result didn't accord
>> with their perception of the nearest railheads.
>
> I wasn't paying too much attention to that thread but IIRC it was a very
> different situation; wasn't the question "closest station to" (ie straight
> line distance) and you used Google maps to tell you shortest journey time?
> Which, depending on geography and timetables, may very well be different
> answers.
>
> Google maps isn't perfect; some cities have far more detailed public
> transport information on that platform than others do (eg Poznań has real
> time position of every tram shown on Google maps, Toruń doesn't even have
> the tram stop locations shown!) - but in general I've found it pretty
> reliable for travel planning.
>
> And in London it *does* have good public transport data; and it will, very
> effectively, show you the most effective route from Heathrow to your
> hotel/office/meeting.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

That was a failure by Roland to use Google Maps correctly. The point at
argument was what was the nearest railway station to Gibraltar. If you
search for a location in Gibraltar and then search for railway station in
places nearby it does indeed find the nearest stations. What Roland did was
to ask the wrong question, ie how to get to Madrid by train. There Google
gives a different answer, as a bus trip to a more distant station gives a
faster journey. User error.

According to Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>:
>> What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
>> support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
>> them.
>
>You missed my point. My lack of mag stripe is indicative of the way things
>are going. This is worldwide if you read up about it. There’s been an
>explosion of small retailers taking cards via contactless. Few of these can
>cope with mag stripes. The folk from the USA are going to have to get going
>with the flow.

Other than a few ATM-only cash cards I can't think of any US issued cards that
don't have chips, and most are also contactless. The fraud protection for US
credit cards is pretty good, the issue is more that most Americans don't travel
outside the country so who cares.

FWIW all of the places I usually shop accept contactless, including the seasonal
produce stand. They have a Square (now called Block because, you know) card
reader that conects to o a phone or iPad.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>specialist airport-express trains where they exist.

Not that I am aware of but many subway stations have long stairways
and no lifts so taking the subway with a lot of luggage is no fun.

In the US I can't think of any specialist airport-express trains. At
JFK and Newark there are stations on a regular commuter line that
connect to the airport tram. The JFK station also connects to the
subway which is convenient if you're going to Queens or Brooklyn and
often competitive with the train if you're going to places where the
E, A, or J trains go that aren't near Penn Station.

Philadelphia has a commuter rail branch. Boston, Baltimore, Washington
DC, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Seattle, and
Vancouver have stops on the local mass transit. Los Angeles is
building one.

Toronto has an airport express which is a train with luggage racks on
a branch of a commuter line. It was originally very expensive to
compete with taxis, but now the price is more in line with ordinary
train fares and it takes Presto, their version of Oyster.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly