On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 11:47:12 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 23/06/2022 08:34, Ken wrote:
>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 13:09:20 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>
>Six items of railway interest in the immediate vicinity.
>
>Peak Rail at Matlock
>Crich Tramway a short bus ride from Ambergate station (or a steep walk from
>Whatstandwell!)
>Steeple Grange railway, 18" gauge using battery locos, on the outskirts of
>Cromford
>On the other side of Cromford, High Peak Junction where that line met the
>canal, has a few railway exhibits and the incline
>Ecclesbourne Valley Railway from Duffield to Wirksworth
>Midland Railway Centre at Butterley also isn't far away, with standard and
>narrow-gauge running lines, and a myriad of other things to look at too!
>
>

Thank you for this list: I'll bear it in mind next time. I really must
visit what's left of the Cromford and High Peak. It's a very
interesting area as is shown by Don Coffey's cab view video of a
freight train running from Hindlow to Crewe
(https://youtu.be/cEPXMmjtvPs).

When I set out on a rover I have a list of lines to visit and things
to see. But I find that as my plans change within the confines of a
week the off-Network Rail things get squeezed out. So, despite being
prominent in my plans, I never did visit the Manchester Museum of
Science and Industry or Piece Hall in Halifax. I managed the planned
Skegness and Buxton lines, and the whole Merseyrail network but not
Stockport - Stalybridge, Goole - Knottingley, Ambergate to Matlock,
Clitheroe to Hellifield or the Swansea District Line.

I did do some things that were unplanned: the Seaton Tramway, the
Hythe Pier Railway and a day on board Waverley. I love time aboard
her.

>Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <t91jru$hjj$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:47:10 on Thu, 23 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t8vp8r$sbc$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:07:07 on Wed, 22 Jun
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>> However, I can't OTTOMH recall anywhere else where there actually is a
>>> choice between rip-off Airport Express and non-ripoff normal transit.
>>
>> Rip-off is subjective when compared to local taxi fares (often the most
>> popular means by which travellers get from the airport to their ultimate
>> destination).
>
>That would depend on the distance, the fare and the available alternatives,
>surely? You can't have a blanket statement "taxi is often the most popular
>means of transport to airports".

I'm just looking at the national statistics for how people get to
airports. In that context "popular" means 'most used' not 'least
resented by the pax concerned'.

And to avoid going down a popular(sic) rathole, I don't think the stats
distinguish between hackneys and private-hire.

>> But anyway, how about Oslo?
>
>That one did enter my head. A little research shows that although the fare
>is almost twice the normal train, and the journey only a few minutes
>quicker, the service is twice as frequent (the opposite situation to HEx
>vs. EL).
>
>The Flytoget also has this interesting clause, which I think would be
>justified in swinging people's travel decisions:
><https://flytoget.no/en/travel-information/travel-guarantee/> "If the
>Airport Express Train arrives at Oslo Airport more than 30 minutes later
>than scheduled and if, as a consequence, you miss your flight, we will
>cover the additional cost of booking onto the next available flight.".

OK so that's one to add to my example from Brisbane. I wonder why HAL is
so shy about offering something similar for Heathrow Express?

>> There's also one for Seoul, although apparently people preferred the
>>cheaper all-stops service. I took an Airport Express coach both ways,
>>which had the advantage of directly servicing my hotel, rather than
>>having to struggle to/from the nearest relevant train station.
>
>The express and stopper are given equal prominence on the website
><http://event.arex.or.kr/main.do>; also the express costs around 1/3rd the
>price of HEx for a journey 3x the duration! That's still around twice the
>price of the stopper, though.
>
>However, the express only runs once every 40 minutes! If you just miss one
>you're definitely better off taking the stopper.

Is that today's timetable and schedule? There's quite a back-story.

>> Then there's the Narita Express, but when I was last in Tokyo a group of
>> us shared a taxi inbound (and even shared it was eye-wateringly
>> expensive) and on the way back again used an express bus which picked me
>> up outside my hotel.
>
>Narita has the added confusion of two competing companies with at least
>three different stopping patterns! The JR 'Narita Express' takes longer
>than the Keisei 'Skyaccess' semi-fast!
>
>For around £15 per person one way it's not eye-watering,

It was the taxi which was eye-watering, about $200 shared between four
of us.

>and with equal frequency to the slower trains, but a significantly
>better journey time, I wouldn't call that one a rip-off.
>
>> There are any other airport services where a non-stop train is provided
>> as an alternative to the local commuter services. Perhaps Stansted
>> Express is the nearest equivalent in the UK, although I might agree it's
>> not *that* much of an express, but does have separate branding to
>> attract the airport trade.
>
>I think we've covered the majority of them
><https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_Express_Train_(disambiguation)>
>[1].
>
>Many places, of course, serve their airport with just normal train services
>without the branding or drama.
>
>Zürich and Geneva airports have normal stations with no, or minimal,
>additional fare. Lyon Saint-Exupéry and Paris Charles De Gaulle are served
>by normal TGV trains.

Do these 'normal TGV' trains have the same fares (and walk-up
availability) as the local commuter services?

The only time I pre-booked a TGV from CDG to my destination, the flight
was delayed and I had to re-book via central Paris (commuter rail to get
there). The queue at the re-booking desk at TGV was about half an hour
long.

>Manchester airport has a mixture of stopper and non-stop trains with no
>extra fare. So does Luton.

Famously, Luton had tickets to London sold on-board by airlines, and at
the station special signage pointing out these were not accepted on the
much faster (but less frequent) MML trains.

>[1] The Hong Kong one is interesting; it shares metro lines, but runs
>limited stop, pick up/set down only as appropriate (ie intermediate
>stations to/from airport only, you can't use it from the intermediate
>stations to the city); the metro line it shares with doesn't serve the
>airport. The trains have a baggage car and you can check in luggage at the
>city terminal.

Sounds like a useful facility, qualifying for my "airport bubble".
--
Roland Perry

In message <t92328$1rg2$2@gal.iecc.com>, at 16:06:32 on Thu, 23 Jun
2022, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>In message <t8vdug$24i$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 15:53:52 on Wed, 22 Jun 2022,
>>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>
>>>Philadelphia has a commuter rail branch. Boston, Baltimore, Washington
>>>DC, Atlanta,
>>
>>Of course the intersection of passengers who can afford International
>>travel, and are prepared to ever set foot on the MARTA is effectively a
>>null set. I used to (because I had previously been familiar with the
>>MARTA when it was only city centre, but everyone I spoke to thought I
>>was insane.
>
>In Atlanta there is definitely a presumption that white people don't
>use the subway.

Or the buses, and Atlanta is also notable that the fares basket only
covers 1/3 of the cost of running the system. The remainder from grants
and a 1% extra sales tax in certain white suburbs (whose residents put
up with it because without the MARTA their cleaners and gardeners and
other minimum wage staff would not be able to get to work).

>I did and lived to tell the tale. It was fast and cheap.

Indeed. But my white suburban friends still thought I was insane.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <g369bh11qcgot89kka095serstqr8sof04@4ax.com>, at 17:48:09 on
> Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 06:20:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t8so37$muq$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:39 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
>>>>>>>>>> the private
>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to
>>>>>>>>> it since
>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>
>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>
>>> Do you have to lift them over the gatelines, or will the staff beep them
>>> through. How can the staff verify their age?
>>>
>> The same as done on e.g. buses and trains for 3, 5 or whatever-year
>> olds for decades - a quick visual assessment via the Mk.1 eyeball. If
>> in doubt ask for age and date of birth which tends to screen out a
>> fair proportion of "offenders".
>
> Why then do they issue 5-10 photocards to London residents who are
> children?

To allow them to travel unaccompanied by an adult.

For visitors, however, to save having to get one of those issued (to which
you would surely, surely, vociferously object), children in that age group
get free travel if accompanied by an adult (up to 4 kids per adult).

You have to go to the wide-access gate on the gateline, potentially seeing
the person staffing the gateline if there are more than one child per adult
and you need the gate holding open for longer.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <3i59bh9qtotmi98tt1sdgceroa2kk9c1a4@4ax.com>, at 17:40:50 on
> Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 11:24:49 +0100, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 23/06/2022 09:22, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t90380$1i89$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:57:20 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> These days with contactless it's chip+neither. It's been quite a
>>>>>>> while since I've been asked to provide either a PIN or a signature at
>>>>>>> the till other than at the pharmacy where I think it's a regulatory
>>>>>>> thing, they want a record of who's buying the drugs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something similar here in UK, IIRC.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not true, contactless transactions at retailers require an almost
>>>>> tedious number of interspersed PIN-supplied purchases to refresh their
>>>>> risk assessment that it's still *you* who has the card.
>>>>
>>>> A till operator at Sainsbury’s speculated to me that the rate of
>>>> PIN-required transactions has gone up since the £100 limit came in - she
>>>> thought it was now about 1 in 5 rather the previous 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not noticed any increase in rate personally, though as it is supposed to
>>> be random that may change.
>>>
>> There could be a different reason for the ratio changing. The card
>> readers have been changing during the last couple of years (old ones -
>> tap card on screen; new ones tap card on top of reader above the
>> screen)
>
> I've only ever seen that latter in some hospitality venues there the
> terminal is a portable one (eg proffered by bar staff). Supermarkets
> all still have the screen (on a permanently wired-in terminal), and
> green bars across the top of the screen.
>

I find different brands of terminal have the contactless pad in different
locations, some at the top, the screen, the bottom, the side…

By the way the card payment terminals at almost every supermarket checkout
will lift out of their cradle for you to use them at a more convenient
angle.

>> and the new ones seem to be a bit more fussy when reading cards. The
>> problem does not IME occur in other shops with older/different card
>> readers.
>
> The hospitality staff I encounter are usually somewhat exasperated by
> the newer terminals, and are a whisker away from saying "No you stupid
> customer, don't touch the screen like you've been doing the last 25yrs,
> you need to touch this contactless symbol on the other end of the
> portable terminal, even though you probably can't be expected to have
> noticed it from where you are standing and without your reading glasses
> on".

Every time I've been in that situation, of hunting where the contactless
pad is this time (or the card slot for occasions when I pay by
not-contactless), the mood has been the exact opposite; it turns into a
little laugh and a joke for a few seconds, oh yes they keep hiding the
pad/slot in all different places on different machines these days, haha.

I've often suspected that the attitude of retail/hospitality staff towards
the customer simply reflects back the customer's attitude towards the staff
to begin with.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <g369bh11qcgot89kka095serstqr8sof04@4ax.com>, at 17:48:09 on
> Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 06:20:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t8so37$muq$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:39 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
>>>>>>>>>> the private
>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to
>>>>>>>>> it since
>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>
>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>
>>> Do you have to lift them over the gatelines, or will the staff beep them
>>> through. How can the staff verify their age?
>>>
>> The same as done on e.g. buses and trains for 3, 5 or whatever-year
>> olds for decades - a quick visual assessment via the Mk.1 eyeball. If
>> in doubt ask for age and date of birth which tends to screen out a
>> fair proportion of "offenders".
>
> Why then do they issue 5-10 photocards to London residents who are
> children?

Because without such a card you have to ask to be let through the gate line
by the attendant, who may not be immediately available. That I imagine
becomes tiresome. Fine for a visit, a pain if you live in the area.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>
>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>> coin-only.
>
>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>> MasterCard.
>>
>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>
>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>
> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
> saying "Cash Only".

If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t91jru$hjj$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:47:10 on Thu, 23 Jun
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t8vp8r$sbc$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:07:07 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> However, I can't OTTOMH recall anywhere else where there actually is a
>>>> choice between rip-off Airport Express and non-ripoff normal transit.
>>>
>>> Rip-off is subjective when compared to local taxi fares (often the most
>>> popular means by which travellers get from the airport to their ultimate
>>> destination).
>>
>> That would depend on the distance, the fare and the available alternatives,
>> surely? You can't have a blanket statement "taxi is often the most popular
>> means of transport to airports".
>
> I'm just looking at the national statistics for how people get to
> airports. In that context "popular" means 'most used' not 'least
> resented by the pax concerned'.
>
> And to avoid going down a popular(sic) rathole, I don't think the stats
> distinguish between hackneys and private-hire.

But it will vary hugely by individual circumstance. Taxi will be most
popular for Bristol Airport at 2am for people who live within 5 miles of
the airport, undoubtedly; but I very much doubt it's the most common way
for people who live in Reading city centre to get to Heathrow
mid-afternoon.

>>> But anyway, how about Oslo?
>>
>> That one did enter my head. A little research shows that although the fare
>> is almost twice the normal train, and the journey only a few minutes
>> quicker, the service is twice as frequent (the opposite situation to HEx
>> vs. EL).
>>
>> The Flytoget also has this interesting clause, which I think would be
>> justified in swinging people's travel decisions:
>> <https://flytoget.no/en/travel-information/travel-guarantee/> "If the
>> Airport Express Train arrives at Oslo Airport more than 30 minutes later
>> than scheduled and if, as a consequence, you miss your flight, we will
>> cover the additional cost of booking onto the next available flight.".
>
> OK so that's one to add to my example from Brisbane. I wonder why HAL is
> so shy about offering something similar for Heathrow Express?
>

Perhaps they've examined the punctuality statistics vs. flight costs?

>>> There's also one for Seoul, although apparently people preferred the
>>> cheaper all-stops service. I took an Airport Express coach both ways,
>>> which had the advantage of directly servicing my hotel, rather than
>>> having to struggle to/from the nearest relevant train station.
>>
>> The express and stopper are given equal prominence on the website
>> <http://event.arex.or.kr/main.do>; also the express costs around 1/3rd the
>> price of HEx for a journey 3x the duration! That's still around twice the
>> price of the stopper, though.
>>
>> However, the express only runs once every 40 minutes! If you just miss one
>> you're definitely better off taking the stopper.
>
> Is that today's timetable and schedule? There's quite a back-story.
>

That's what it says on their website right now.

>>> Then there's the Narita Express, but when I was last in Tokyo a group of
>>> us shared a taxi inbound (and even shared it was eye-wateringly
>>> expensive) and on the way back again used an express bus which picked me
>>> up outside my hotel.
>>
>> Narita has the added confusion of two competing companies with at least
>> three different stopping patterns! The JR 'Narita Express' takes longer
>> than the Keisei 'Skyaccess' semi-fast!
>>
>> For around £15 per person one way it's not eye-watering,
>
> It was the taxi which was eye-watering, about $200 shared between four
> of us.
>

Should have got the train ;)

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>> coin-only.
>>
>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>> MasterCard.
>>>
>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>
>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>
>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>> saying "Cash Only".
>
> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>
>

I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.
Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
earnings that don’t go through the books.

On 24/06/2022 11:47, Tweed wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>
>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>
>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>
>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>
>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>
>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>
>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>>
>>
>
> I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.
> Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
> pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
> inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
> uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
> earnings that don’t go through the books.

I used to do it to get a VAT receipt which the pumps don't provide. Also
I suspect they don't deal with loyalty cards, eg Nectar.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t94084$25f$4@dont-email.me>, at 09:30:44 on Fri, 24 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>> The hospitality staff I encounter are usually somewhat exasperated by
>> the newer terminals, and are a whisker away from saying "No you stupid
>> customer, don't touch the screen like you've been doing the last 25yrs,
>> you need to touch this contactless symbol on the other end of the
>> portable terminal, even though you probably can't be expected to have
>> noticed it from where you are standing and without your reading glasses
>> on".
>
>Every time I've been in that situation, of hunting where the contactless
>pad is this time (or the card slot for occasions when I pay by
>not-contactless), the mood has been the exact opposite; it turns into a
>little laugh and a joke for a few seconds, oh yes they keep hiding the
>pad/slot in all different places on different machines these days, haha.
>
>I've often suspected that the attitude of retail/hospitality staff towards
>the customer simply reflects back the customer's attitude towards the staff
>to begin with.

Some staff just seemed programmed to have a bad attitude. One particular
thing I notice is whether or not if it's the third time I've been in
there in a week and they just look straight through you like you were a
stranger, whereas at other places go back after a year and they greet
you like an old friend.

As user of their contactless terminals, first try the screen, because if
they've acquired one with a pad somewhere else, that's a bit of a
self-inflicted injury, especially when they go on to criticise the
customer for not knowing any better.
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/06/2022 11:47, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>>
>>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>>
>>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>>
>>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>>
>>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.
>> Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
>> pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
>> inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
>> uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
>> earnings that don’t go through the books.
>
> I used to do it to get a VAT receipt which the pumps don't provide. Also
> I suspect they don't deal with loyalty cards, eg Nectar.
>

Never having the need of a VAT receipt it is something I don’t understand.
Why isn’t the standard receipt (which pay at pump devices issue unless they
have run out of paper) good enough?

Newer pay at pump machines accept loyalty cards, either by inserting them
or using a scanner.

In message <t94395$m0h$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:22:29 on Fri, 24 Jun
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>> coin-only.
>>
>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>> MasterCard.
>>>
>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>
>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>
>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>> saying "Cash Only".
>
>If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>
><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95
>?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>

On that theme, local Facebook groups report the convenience store will
no longer change a note into coins, for charity/yard-sale folks to be
able to give change. Of course, such people won't have the ability to
take cards.

I've no idea what the region's largest car-boot sales is doing, because
it's been suffering from pandemic issues. But last time I was there
perhaps three years ago [as a seller] there was no mobile coverage on
*any* network because it was in a farmer's field essentially in the
middle of almost nowhere. Not that far from Turners of Soham, who are
actually in Fordham, and have a huge container depot right next to the
railway from the container ports, but no siding.

<https://fordhamcarbootsales.co.uk/>

Buyers
Free Parking
Adults 50p
Children under 16 FREE
All payments to be made on the day in cash.
--
Roland Perry

On 24/06/2022 12:06, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/06/2022 11:47, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>>>
>>>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>>>
>>>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.
>>> Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
>>> pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
>>> inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
>>> uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
>>> earnings that don’t go through the books.
>>
>> I used to do it to get a VAT receipt which the pumps don't provide. Also
>> I suspect they don't deal with loyalty cards, eg Nectar.
>>
>
> Never having the need of a VAT receipt it is something I don’t understand.
> Why isn’t the standard receipt (which pay at pump devices issue unless they
> have run out of paper) good enough?

Because it has to have VAT relevant information including the VAT number
of the petrol station operator. Most pump machines merely produce a
Credit card receipt. Which, incidentally, is another reason for using
the manned till, currently filling the average Chelsea Tractor costs
more that the contactless limit.

>
> Newer pay at pump machines accept loyalty cards, either by inserting them
> or using a scanner.
>

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/06/2022 11:47, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>>
>>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>>
>>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>>
>>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>>
>>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.
>> Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
>> pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
>> inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
>> uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
>> earnings that don’t go through the books.
>
> I used to do it to get a VAT receipt which the pumps don't provide. Also
> I suspect they don't deal with loyalty cards, eg Nectar.
>

Tesco's ones certainly do clubcard. Isn't the receipt they issue suitable
for the purpose?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t94084$25f$4@dont-email.me>, at 09:30:44 on Fri, 24 Jun
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> The hospitality staff I encounter are usually somewhat exasperated by
>>> the newer terminals, and are a whisker away from saying "No you stupid
>>> customer, don't touch the screen like you've been doing the last 25yrs,
>>> you need to touch this contactless symbol on the other end of the
>>> portable terminal, even though you probably can't be expected to have
>>> noticed it from where you are standing and without your reading glasses
>>> on".
>>
>> Every time I've been in that situation, of hunting where the contactless
>> pad is this time (or the card slot for occasions when I pay by
>> not-contactless), the mood has been the exact opposite; it turns into a
>> little laugh and a joke for a few seconds, oh yes they keep hiding the
>> pad/slot in all different places on different machines these days, haha.
>>
>> I've often suspected that the attitude of retail/hospitality staff towards
>> the customer simply reflects back the customer's attitude towards the staff
>> to begin with.
>
> Some staff just seemed programmed to have a bad attitude. One particular
> thing I notice is whether or not if it's the third time I've been in
> there in a week and they just look straight through you like you were a
> stranger, whereas at other places go back after a year and they greet
> you like an old friend.
>

Not every person has the capacity to remember every person they meet. I
struggle with faces, so if you were a customer at a retail place I was
working (eg shop, bar) I'd probably not recognise you on your third visit
of the week, unless we'd had some deeper interaction (eg Hi Anna, I'm that
Roland Perry from Usenet). OTOH having made that deeper connection, I'll
probably remember you a year later.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/06/2022 11:47, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>>>
>>>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>>>
>>>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.
>>> Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
>>> pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
>>> inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
>>> uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
>>> earnings that don’t go through the books.
>>
>> I used to do it to get a VAT receipt which the pumps don't provide. Also
>> I suspect they don't deal with loyalty cards, eg Nectar.
>>
>
> Never having the need of a VAT receipt it is something I don’t understand.
> Why isn’t the standard receipt (which pay at pump devices issue unless they
> have run out of paper) good enough?
>
> Newer pay at pump machines accept loyalty cards, either by inserting them
> or using a scanner.
>
>

I like to have a receipt with the number of litres of fuel stated (and the
price per litre), whereas sometimes in-store all you get is the card
transaction receipt unless you ask for the VAT receipt (which has the
information I want). OTOH the receipts printed at the pump usually have the
relevant information on them, IMX.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 24/06/2022 12:38, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 24/06/2022 11:47, Tweed wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>>>
>>>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>>>
>>>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.
>>> Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
>>> pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
>>> inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
>>> uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
>>> earnings that don’t go through the books.
>>
>> I used to do it to get a VAT receipt which the pumps don't provide. Also
>> I suspect they don't deal with loyalty cards, eg Nectar.
>>
>
> Tesco's ones certainly do clubcard. Isn't the receipt they issue suitable
> for the purpose?
>

Has to say VAT receipt or invoice and give Tesco's VAT number, can't
off-hand remember what else, I deregistered from VAT around 10 years ago

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t944nq$v8v$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:22 on Fri, 24 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>
>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>
>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>
>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>
>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>
>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>
>>
>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a9
>>5?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>
>I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.

Whereas now that Covid precautions are winding down, I must experience
about once a week.

>Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
>pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
>inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
>uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
>earnings that don’t go through the books.

Technophobia. My local quite big CoOp installed three self-scan tills
about six weeks ago, and de-manned their four - but rarely more than one
manned - traditional belt-tills (leaving just the Smoking/Lottery/
Click&collect counter). And when I go in, the typical scene is ten to
fifteen people queuing at that counter, and all three self-scan tills
available.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t944ug$rq8$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:50:56 on Fri, 24 Jun
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 24/06/2022 11:47, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>>
>>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>>
>>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>>
>>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>>
>>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>>
>>>
>>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a
>>>95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>>>
>>>
>> I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay
>>with cash.
>> Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
>> pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
>> inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
>> uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
>> earnings that don’t go through the books.
>
>I used to do it to get a VAT receipt which the pumps don't provide.

Or even if they purport to provide, don't work half the time.

>Also I suspect they don't deal with loyalty cards, eg Nectar.

My Sainsbury's pumps don't do Nectar, and the Tesco pumps have only
accepted key-fob (so scanned rather than swiped) loyalty cards since
they were upgraded about 18 months ago.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t947ms$l3c$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:38:04 on Fri, 24 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t94084$25f$4@dont-email.me>, at 09:30:44 on Fri, 24 Jun
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> The hospitality staff I encounter are usually somewhat exasperated by
>>>> the newer terminals, and are a whisker away from saying "No you stupid
>>>> customer, don't touch the screen like you've been doing the last 25yrs,
>>>> you need to touch this contactless symbol on the other end of the
>>>> portable terminal, even though you probably can't be expected to have
>>>> noticed it from where you are standing and without your reading glasses
>>>> on".
>>>
>>> Every time I've been in that situation, of hunting where the contactless
>>> pad is this time (or the card slot for occasions when I pay by
>>> not-contactless), the mood has been the exact opposite; it turns into a
>>> little laugh and a joke for a few seconds, oh yes they keep hiding the
>>> pad/slot in all different places on different machines these days, haha.
>>>
>>> I've often suspected that the attitude of retail/hospitality staff towards
>>> the customer simply reflects back the customer's attitude towards the staff
>>> to begin with.
>>
>> Some staff just seemed programmed to have a bad attitude. One particular
>> thing I notice is whether or not if it's the third time I've been in
>> there in a week and they just look straight through you like you were a
>> stranger, whereas at other places go back after a year and they greet
>> you like an old friend.
>>
>
>Not every person has the capacity to remember every person they meet.

But it's a valuable asset in hospitality staff at venues which have many
"regulars". Some regulars might say it was an almost essential part of
the experience - walk through the door and, the barman greets you
glass-in hand with "Your regular?"

>I struggle with faces, so if you were a customer at a retail place I
>was working (eg shop, bar) I'd probably not recognise you on your third
>visit of the week, unless we'd had some deeper interaction (eg Hi Anna,
>I'm that Roland Perry from Usenet). OTOH having made that deeper
>connection, I'll probably remember you a year later.

Whereas although not working in hospitality, I'll remember the face
pretty much anyone I've ever had a conversation with for decades.
Putting a name to that face, even if I met you last week, is quite a
different matter!

There's a certain type of salesman/lobbyist who greets people they want
to influence as if they are a long-lost friend. I can always rebut that
by "never met you before", which tends to pull the rug from under their
business model.

I'd much prefer someone to say "we've never met, but I have this idea
I'd like to run past you".

Recognising faces as familiar is not as difficult as sometimes claimed,
I'm sure most of the public has a repertoire of ten thousand or more
TV/Movie/Sports/Pop personalities who they'd recognise, even if they'd
need prompting for the name.
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/06/2022 12:06, Tweed wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 24/06/2022 11:47, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>>>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>>>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>>>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>>>>
>>>>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a95?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.
>>>> Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
>>>> pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
>>>> inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
>>>> uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
>>>> earnings that don’t go through the books.
>>>
>>> I used to do it to get a VAT receipt which the pumps don't provide. Also
>>> I suspect they don't deal with loyalty cards, eg Nectar.
>>>
>>
>> Never having the need of a VAT receipt it is something I don’t understand.
>> Why isn’t the standard receipt (which pay at pump devices issue unless they
>> have run out of paper) good enough?
>
> Because it has to have VAT relevant information including the VAT number
> of the petrol station operator. Most pump machines merely produce a
> Credit card receipt. Which, incidentally, is another reason for using
> the manned till, currently filling the average Chelsea Tractor costs
> more that the contactless limit.
>
>>
>> Newer pay at pump machines accept loyalty cards, either by inserting them
>> or using a scanner.
>>
>
>

So why don’t they print a credit/debit card receipt that has all the
information on it? Even when I lay at a petrol station kiosk they hand me a
credit card receipt and then ask if I need a vat receipt. If I buy
something at a supermarket I get everything on the one receipt. I’ve always
found it a bit odd.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t944nq$v8v$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:22 on Fri, 24 Jun
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t92h4k$nad$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 21:06:43 on Thu, 23 Jun
>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 23/06/2022 18:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t900aj$e3u$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 22:07:31 on Wed, 22 Jun
>>>>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 22/06/2022 21:43, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
>>>>>>>>>> magstrips for a while.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Indeed. Even when US issuers were forced to start using chipped
>>>>>>>>> cards, they insisted their customers continue to use signature
>>>>>>>>> instead of PIN as the rest of the world did. Apparently they were
>>>>>>>>> concerned that as Americans apparently carry more cards than the rest
>>>>>>>>> of the world, it would be too confusing to have separate PINs for
>>>>>>>>> each card.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, Japan is still very much a cash-based society. Indeed, they still
>>>>>>>> use faxes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Germany has a reputation for not liking *credit* cards, and the
>>>>>>> Netherlands for having proprietary *debit* cards. I never cease to be
>>>>>>> amazed the way shops in Switzerland will take the equivalent of a £100
>>>>>>> note for cup of coffee without blinking. And yet so many machines are
>>>>>>> coin-only.
>>>>
>>>>>> Germany has changed. On a business trip to Munich I experimented how
>>>>>> far I could get without cash. Everywhere, including the taxi driver,
>>>>>> accepted my credit card, except for a small bakery come coffee shop.
>>>>>> Netherlands is the only place where the difference between visa and
>>>>>> MasterCard was important. A supermarket would accept visa but not
>>>>>> MasterCard.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most retailers in Sweden really don't want cash, AIUI.
>>>>>
>>>>> I actually spoke not too long ago with somebody there about that, and
>>>>> he told me that he has not carried cash in a while.
>>>>
>>>> My local garden centre, even through lock-down, wouldn't accept credit
>>>> cards for less than £10. They also have a stall at the weekly market
>>>> (mainly selling bedding plants and flowers), and have big signs up
>>>> saying "Cash Only".
>>>
>>> If WH Smith can’t change £10, cash has had its day
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c367adcc-f328-11ec-beb3-8cbcdd742a9
>>> 5?shareToken=f10ac23e3bd28522a080591f185eeb93>
>>
>> I, quite literally, can’t remember the last time I *had* to pay with cash.
>
> Whereas now that Covid precautions are winding down, I must experience
> about once a week.
>
>> Which brings me to a related matter. At petrol stations where every pump is
>> pay at pump significant numbers of folk, around half, still go to pay
>> inside and most don’t come out with kiosk additional purchases. My, perhaps
>> uncharitable, thought is this is a way of disposing of cash in hand
>> earnings that don’t go through the books.
>
> Technophobia. My local quite big CoOp installed three self-scan tills
> about six weeks ago, and de-manned their four - but rarely more than one
> manned - traditional belt-tills (leaving just the Smoking/Lottery/
> Click&collect counter). And when I go in, the typical scene is ten to
> fifteen people queuing at that counter, and all three self-scan tills
> available.

I think that’s mainly because self scan tills are so bad. The ones that
have scales are terrible as you have to wait for each purchase to settle.
Even those that don’t have these have scanners that aren’t that good at
finding the bar code. Wilko recently turned some of their staff operated
checkouts over to customer use. Their hand held bar code scanners find the
barcode with ease. They are very much easier to use.

In message <t94084$25f$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:30:44 on Fri, 24 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <g369bh11qcgot89kka095serstqr8sof04@4ax.com>, at 17:48:09 on
>> Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>> remarked:
>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 06:20:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t8so37$muq$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:39 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
>>>>>>>>>>> the private
>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to
>>>>>>>>>> it since
>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>
>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>>
>>>> Do you have to lift them over the gatelines, or will the staff beep them
>>>> through. How can the staff verify their age?
>>>>
>>> The same as done on e.g. buses and trains for 3, 5 or whatever-year
>>> olds for decades - a quick visual assessment via the Mk.1 eyeball. If
>>> in doubt ask for age and date of birth which tends to screen out a
>>> fair proportion of "offenders".
>>
>> Why then do they issue 5-10 photocards to London residents who are
>> children?
>
>To allow them to travel unaccompanied by an adult.

The visual assessment above didn't specify any interaction with an
accompanying adult.

>For visitors, however, to save having to get one of those issued (to which
>you would surely, surely, vociferously object),

Only because the procedure is probably so bureaucratic you couldn't hope
to get it done in five minutes while waiting for your luggage of come
off the belt at the airport.

>children in that age group get free travel if accompanied by an adult
>(up to 4 kids per adult).
>
>You have to go to the wide-access gate on the gateline, potentially seeing
>the person staffing the gateline if there are more than one child per adult
>and you need the gate holding open for longer.

--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 24 Jun 2022 14:26:31 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t94084$25f$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:30:44 on Fri, 24 Jun
>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <g369bh11qcgot89kka095serstqr8sof04@4ax.com>, at 17:48:09 on
>>> Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 06:20:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t8so37$muq$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:39 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
>>>>>>>>>>>> the private
>>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to
>>>>>>>>>>> it since
>>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have to lift them over the gatelines, or will the staff beep them
>>>>> through. How can the staff verify their age?
>>>>>
>>>> The same as done on e.g. buses and trains for 3, 5 or whatever-year
>>>> olds for decades - a quick visual assessment via the Mk.1 eyeball. If
>>>> in doubt ask for age and date of birth which tends to screen out a
>>>> fair proportion of "offenders".
>>>
>>> Why then do they issue 5-10 photocards to London residents who are
>>> children?
>>
>>To allow them to travel unaccompanied by an adult.
>
>The visual assessment above didn't specify any interaction with an
>accompanying adult.
>
>>For visitors, however, to save having to get one of those issued (to which
>>you would surely, surely, vociferously object),
>
>Only because the procedure is probably so bureaucratic you couldn't hope
>to get it done in five minutes while waiting for your luggage of come
>off the belt at the airport.

How would they obtain any kind of Oyster card in the baggage collection hall? You have to go through Customs and head
to the Tube station first.

And you've obviously not flown in the modern era if you think the bags arrive in five minutes...