On 22/06/2022 13:31, Certes wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 11:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t8ub9t$me2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:02:37 on Wed, 22 Jun
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most
>>>> recent
>>>> [adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
>>>> *not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
>>>> regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
>>>> interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
>>>> of practice with that!
>>>
>>> Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing
>>> number of
>>> terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.
>>
>> What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
>> support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant
>> to them.
>
> Retailers are far more likely to support magstripe cards if potential
> customers have them, and most UK retailers deal mainly with Brits.

Magstripes are on their way out, AIUI.

I imagine that retailers will continue to have equipment that supports
them for the foreseeable future in order to accommodate any stragglers
or people from elsewhere, where cards have as yet not abandoned magstrips.

In message <t8vanb$qpp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:51 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t8so38$muq$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:40 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> Wherever visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL
>>>>> services will provide the more convenient, and often the faster,
>>>>> link. All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or indeed, use Google maps.
>>>
>>> How short a memory. When I used Google maps recently to research a trip
>>> from Gibraltar to Madrid, people mocked the way the result didn't accord
>>> with their perception of the nearest railheads.
>>
>> I wasn't paying too much attention to that thread but IIRC it was a very
>> different situation; wasn't the question "closest station to" (ie straight
>> line distance) and you used Google maps to tell you shortest journey time?
>> Which, depending on geography and timetables, may very well be different
>> answers.
>>
>> Google maps isn't perfect; some cities have far more detailed public
>> transport information on that platform than others do (eg Pozna0 >> time position of every tram shown on Google maps, Toru0 >> the tram stop locations shown!) - but in general I've found it pretty
>> reliable for travel planning.
>>
>> And in London it *does* have good public transport data; and it will, very
>> effectively, show you the most effective route from Heathrow to your
>> hotel/office/meeting.
>
>That was a failure by Roland to use Google Maps correctly.

I'm not perfect, but nor is the typical jet-lagged international
traveller who has just landed at Heathrow.

--
Roland Perry

On 22/06/2022 13:21, Recliner wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:34:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <t8sg9h$c5q$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 13:15:29 on Tue, 21 Jun 2022,
>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Unlike you, I actually travel to and from the airport by Tube, and I
>>>> can assure you that they're full of travellers new to London.
>>>
>>> The tube on the way in to London last week was indeed full of people
>>> with well worn luggage speaking languages I don't understand.
>>
>> I posted the stats a couple of weeks ago, and only a quarter of people
>> leaving Heathrow by train do so not on the tube. However, that quarter
>> are still a significant number, and are prepared to pay more not to
>> mingle with what they perceive could be drunks, beggars and pickpockets
>> on the city's metro systems.
>
> Do we know how the heavy rail total broke down between HEx and TfL Rail?
>
>>
>> JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>> sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>> specialist airport-express trains where they exist.
>
> The New York Subway isn't a good way of getting to JFK.

Beg to differ.

Take the A train out to Howard Beach-JFK Airport, transfer there to the
AirTrain, which will take you to your desired terminal.

You can also take the Long Island Rail Road to Jamaica, from where you
can also pick up the AirTrain to the airport.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:05:26 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?
>
>
>They’re probably thinking that the parents will control how much money goes
>into the account and keep an eye on what goes out. So old fashioned.

Yeah, right, just like they keep an eye on their kids phone usage. Which
they'll probably have downloaded the natwest app too.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:24:01 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 22/06/2022 09:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
>>>
>>> Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
>>> debit card.
>>
>> Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?
>
>>
>>
>
>About joining the real world.

Oh right. Presumably you think 11 years should be able to view porn too then?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t8vanb$qpp$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:51 on Wed, 22 Jun
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t8so38$muq$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:40 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> Wherever visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL
>>>>>> services will provide the more convenient, and often the faster,
>>>>>> link. All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Or indeed, use Google maps.
>>>>
>>>> How short a memory. When I used Google maps recently to research a trip
>>>> from Gibraltar to Madrid, people mocked the way the result didn't accord
>>>> with their perception of the nearest railheads.
>>>
>>> I wasn't paying too much attention to that thread but IIRC it was a very
>>> different situation; wasn't the question "closest station to" (ie straight
>>> line distance) and you used Google maps to tell you shortest journey time?
>>> Which, depending on geography and timetables, may very well be different
>>> answers.
>>>
>>> Google maps isn't perfect; some cities have far more detailed public
>>> transport information on that platform than others do (eg Pozna0 >>
>>> time position of every tram shown on Google maps, Toru0 >> the tram
>>> stop locations shown!) - but in general I've found it pretty
>>> reliable for travel planning.
>>>
>>> And in London it *does* have good public transport data; and it will, very
>>> effectively, show you the most effective route from Heathrow to your
>>> hotel/office/meeting.
>>
>> That was a failure by Roland to use Google Maps correctly.
>
> I'm not perfect, but nor is the typical jet-lagged international
> traveller who has just landed at Heathrow.
>

I suspect many will be armed with Citymapper these days.

On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:26:17 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>They also got mobile phones at a young age and unfettered Internet access.

Did you win the Responsible Parent of the Year award too?

>We’ve never found the need for parental Internet controls and never had a
>problem. Both have grown up to have decent careers and stable

If they're that old then when they were young porn and peados weren't such
a problem online for children.

>those with a vested interest. Best to teach children how to navigate the
>pitfalls of life rather than to be controlling. Access to bank accounts is

There's a time and place.

On 22/06/2022 17:08, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 13:21, Recliner wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:34:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t8sg9h$c5q$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 13:15:29 on Tue, 21 Jun 2022,
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> Unlike you, I actually travel to and from the airport by Tube, and I
>>>>> can assure you that they're full of travellers new to London.
>>>>
>>>> The tube on the way in to London last week was indeed full of people
>>>> with well worn luggage speaking languages I don't understand.
>>>
>>> I posted the stats a couple of weeks ago, and only a quarter of people
>>> leaving Heathrow by train do so not on the tube. However, that quarter
>>> are still a significant number, and are prepared to pay more not to
>>> mingle with what they perceive could be drunks, beggars and pickpockets
>>> on the city's metro systems.
>>
>> Do we know how the heavy rail total broke down between HEx and TfL Rail?
>>
>>>
>>> JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>>> sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>>> specialist airport-express trains where they exist.
>>
>> The New York Subway isn't a good way of getting to JFK.
>
> Beg to differ.
>
> Take the A train out to Howard Beach-JFK Airport, transfer there to the
> AirTrain, which will take you to your desired terminal.
>
> You can also take the Long Island Rail Road to Jamaica, from where you
> can also pick up the AirTrain to the airport.

The East Side Connnection, which will see LIRR trains run to Grand
Central Terminal, is also due to open later this year. This will also
facilitate getting to JFK from Manhattan's East Side.

On 22/06/2022 16:53, John Levine wrote:
> According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>> JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>> sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>> specialist airport-express trains where they exist.
>
> Not that I am aware of but many subway stations have long stairways
> and no lifts so taking the subway with a lot of luggage is no fun.
>
> In the US I can't think of any specialist airport-express trains. At
> JFK and Newark there are stations on a regular commuter line that
> connect to the airport tram. The JFK station also connects to the
> subway which is convenient if you're going to Queens or Brooklyn and
> often competitive with the train if you're going to places where the
> E, A, or J trains go that aren't near Penn Station.
>
> Philadelphia has a commuter rail branch. Boston, Baltimore, Washington
> DC, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Seattle, and
> Vancouver have stops on the local mass transit. Los Angeles is
> building one.
>
> Toronto has an airport express which is a train with luggage racks on
> a branch of a commuter line. It was originally very expensive to
> compete with taxis, but now the price is more in line with ordinary
> train fares and it takes Presto, their version of Oyster.
>

Don't forget the JFK Express; It ran from midtown-Manhattan to Howard
Beach-JFK Airport, bypassing many stations. It was also a premium
service at $5 -- 400% more expensive than the standard fare of $1 at
that time.

The problem was that there was at the time no fast connection to the
airport from the station, forcing passengers to lug their heavy luggage
onto a bus and pay a separate fare. I'm guessing that, along with the
low passenger volumes, and the difficulty of last-mile connection to the
airport was one of the reasons that it ended.

I wonder if NYCT would consider reinstating that service in some form,
considering the improved ease and speed of transfer. I'm all but certain
that the airport end is completely step-free, and they could use that as
a factor in determining their premium.

On 22/06/2022 15:47, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t8ub9t$me2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:02:37 on Wed, 22 Jun
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t8sqjl$47l$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:11:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and own
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the private
>>>>>>>>>>>>> station, until recently they ran all services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running services to
>>>>>>>>>>>> it since
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to Wikipedia].
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing. Talking of
>>>>>>>>>> which, are there any Oyster vending machines at Heathrow for first-time
>>>>>>>>>> arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by an adult.
>>>>
>>>>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, one
>>>>
>>>> Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
>>>> [adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
>>>> *not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
>>>> regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
>>>> interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
>>>> of practice with that!
>>>
>>> Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
>>> terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.
>>
>> What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
>> support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
>> them.
>
> You missed my point. My lack of mag stripe is indicative of the way things
> are going. This is worldwide if you read up about it. There’s been an
> explosion of small retailers taking cards via contactless. Few of these can
> cope with mag stripes. The folk from the USA are going to have to get going
> with the flow.
>

Considering that they were way behind in converting mobile telephony to
GSM, well after Europe got it, instead of sticking with CDMA;
considering that New York City Transit has only in the last two years
introduced a smartcard and allowed passengers to pay with contactless on
the subway, it would not surprise me if the 'Merkins stick with
magstrips for a while.

New York City Transit still sells and uses magstrips anyway.

I mean, the Pyongyang Metro used smartcards well before the New York
City Subway.

According to hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk>:
>Don't forget the JFK Express; It ran from midtown-Manhattan to Howard
>Beach-JFK Airport, bypassing many stations. It was also a premium
>service at $5 -- 400% more expensive than the standard fare of $1 at
>that time.
>
>The problem was that there was at the time no fast connection to the
>airport from the station, forcing passengers to lug their heavy luggage
>onto a bus and pay a separate fare. I'm guessing that, along with the
>low passenger volumes, and the difficulty of last-mile connection to the
>airport was one of the reasons that it ended.

I took it. It was an ordinary train with an attendant or two. The bus
from Howard Beach to the terminals was slow but free. Meh.

>I wonder if NYCT would consider reinstating that service in some form,
>considering the improved ease and speed of transfer. I'm all but certain
>that the airport end is completely step-free, and they could use that as
>a factor in determining their premium.

East Side Access is supposed to start running trains between Grand
Central Terminal and Jamaica in December. I don't see much advantage
of an additional semi-express A train.

The other possibility is to connect the Airtrain to the LIRR or subway
to provide a single seat ride to midtown. That was the original plan
in the 1960s. The Airtrain's track and loading gauge are similar to
the subway's so with dual-mode propulsion it wouldn't be technically
hard to do.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

According to hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk>:
>> Retailers are far more likely to support magstripe cards if potential
>> customers have them, and most UK retailers deal mainly with Brits.
>
>Magstripes are on their way out, AIUI.

Mastercard says that US issued cards will stop having stripes in 2027
and they'll all be gone by 2029. I expect that in practice it will be
sooner, due to the fraud issue. It is trivial to clone a magstripe,
difficult to impossible to clone a chip or contactless.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

In message <t8vdug$24i$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 15:53:52 on Wed, 22 Jun 2022,
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>>sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>>specialist airport-express trains where they exist.
>
>Not that I am aware of but many subway stations have long stairways
>and no lifts so taking the subway with a lot of luggage is no fun.
>
>In the US I can't think of any specialist airport-express trains.

I thought they were going to do one at DFW, but I don't follow its
progress much.

>At JFK and Newark there are stations on a regular commuter line that
>connect to the airport tram. The JFK station also connects to the
>subway which is convenient if you're going to Queens or Brooklyn and
>often competitive with the train if you're going to places where the E,
>A, or J trains go that aren't near Penn Station.

I had to do a transfer between Newark and JFK, and while reasonably
familiar with the foibles of USA railways, like your recent trip to UK
"I had a plane to catch". So I got the Airport-Express coach between the
two. I probably quite reasonably expected it to be far cheaper than a
cab.

>Philadelphia has a commuter rail branch. Boston, Baltimore, Washington
>DC, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Seattle, and
>Vancouver have stops on the local mass transit. Los Angeles is
>building one.
>
>Toronto has an airport express which is a train with luggage racks on
>a branch of a commuter line. It was originally very expensive to
>compete with taxis, but now the price is more in line with ordinary
>train fares and it takes Presto, their version of Oyster.

As it happens I think I might have a Presto app on my phone, not because
I wanted to go there, but just because I could.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8vep1$hif$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:08:00 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>On 22/06/2022 13:21, Recliner wrote:
>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:34:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t8sg9h$c5q$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 13:15:29 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>2022,
>>> John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> Unlike you, I actually travel to and from the airport by Tube, and I
>>>>> can assure you that they're full of travellers new to London.
>>>>
>>>> The tube on the way in to London last week was indeed full of people
>>>> with well worn luggage speaking languages I don't understand.
>>>
>>> I posted the stats a couple of weeks ago, and only a quarter of people
>>> leaving Heathrow by train do so not on the tube. However, that quarter
>>> are still a significant number, and are prepared to pay more not to
>>> mingle with what they perceive could be drunks, beggars and pickpockets
>>> on the city's metro systems.

>> Do we know how the heavy rail total broke down between HEx and TfL
>>Rail?

No, but I can't see many foreign visitors being clued-up enough to pick
the latter, lacking as it does the appropriate branding.

>>> JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>>> sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>>> specialist airport-express trains where they exist.

>> The New York Subway isn't a good way of getting to JFK.
>
>Beg to differ.
>
>Take the A train out to Howard Beach-JFK Airport, transfer there to the
>AirTrain, which will take you to your desired terminal.
>
>You can also take the Long Island Rail Road to Jamaica, from where you
>can also pick up the AirTrain to the airport.

Oh dear, has Recliner's Internet research skills (which apparently all
travellers are bound to have) failed him?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8va2l$e4b$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:47:49 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t8ub9t$me2$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:02:37 on Wed, 22 Jun
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t8sqjl$47l$5@dont-email.me>, at 17:11:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 21/06/2022 16:34, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:28:39 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t8rtdo$oin$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:53:28 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heathrow is rather different, of course; they built and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the private station, until recently they ran all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>services to it;
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry, pardon? The Piccadilly Line has been running
>>>>>>>>>>>> it since 3pm on 16 December 1977 [according to
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We're talking about the HEx/HConn/EL
>>>>>>>>>>> station/platforms/lines/services/staff, not LU.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are we? Last time I looked Oyster was primarily a LU thing.
>>>>>>>>>>Talking of which, are there any Oyster vending machines at
>>>>>>>>>>Heathrow for first-time arrivals to get one?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but they're not really needed, as contactless is easier.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's hugely non-transparent (aka a blank cheque), and children don't
>>>>>>>> tend to have one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If they're age 10 or younger they travel free if accompanied by
>>>>>>>an adult.
>>>>
>>>>>> How many 11 year olds do you know who have a debit card?
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently, one
>>>>
>>>> Are they British residents, or perhaps visiting tourist. The most recent
>>>> [adult] tourist I helped round London has a card, but it's deliberately
>>>> *not* contactless, because where they live there isn't such strong
>>>> regulatory protection when cards are lost/stolen. Buying things was
>>>> interesting, requiring a swipe and sign - many retailers are a bit out
>>>> of practice with that!
>>>
>>> Mag stripe swiping is on its way out and I suspect an increasing number of
>>> terminals won’t cope. My latest bank card came without a mag stripe.
>>
>> What foreign tourists with magstripe cards need is retailers who still
>> support it. Whether Brits have magstripe cards is utterly irrelevant to
>> them.
>
>You missed my point. My lack of mag stripe is indicative of the way things
>are going. This is worldwide if you read up about it. There’s been an
>explosion of small retailers taking cards via contactless. Few of these can
>cope with mag stripes. The folk from the USA are going to have to get going
>with the flow.

They won't on their main account, because of the domestic risks. So
maybe another use-case for prepaid contactless debit cards.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8vaaa$iqn$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:51:55 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t8t6np$sud$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:38:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> A huge number of Heathrow users are actually Brits and they will drift to
>>> the EL. HEx doesn’t really take you to a very useful part of London for an
>>> inbound tourist. If the HEx was truly THE solution for the boggled tourist
>>> they wouldn’t need all these high pressure touts at Heathrow.
>>
>> The thing about HEx is that international travellers perceive is as part
>> of the airport experience. Inbound not quite as much as when outbound
>> and you could check in and deposit your luggage at Paddington, but still
>> part of the "airport bubble" rather than the city bubble.
>>
>> Remember that HEx was only ever, and continues to be, not an alternative
>> for other public transport, but simply a special visitor-friendly train
>> people can get which is an alternative to a taxi. With admittedly
>> another taxi onward from Paddington.
>>
>> I continue to be frustrated why this fundamental business model that's
>> so well documented, is so misunderstood.
>
>The hard sell of HEx tickets at Heathrow (still happening the other week)
>by touts on foot indicate that it is a business model that is having
>trouble selling itself.

Maybe they need to spend more money advertising via in-flight magazines,
but if the agents you prejudicially characterise as "touts" are making
sufficient sales, they perhaps TfL should deploy their own to try to
persuade the jetlagged international travellers to mix (as they would
assume it to be the case) with drunks, pickpockets and beggars on their
trains.
--
Roland Perry

On 22/06/2022 16:53, John Levine wrote:
> According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>> JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>> sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>> specialist airport-express trains where they exist.
>
> Not that I am aware of but many subway stations have long stairways
> and no lifts so taking the subway with a lot of luggage is no fun.
>
> In the US I can't think of any specialist airport-express trains. At
> JFK and Newark there are stations on a regular commuter line that
> connect to the airport tram. The JFK station also connects to the
> subway which is convenient if you're going to Queens or Brooklyn and
> often competitive with the train if you're going to places where the
> E, A, or J trains go that aren't near Penn Station.
>
> Philadelphia has a commuter rail branch. Boston, Baltimore, Washington
> DC, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Seattle, and
> Vancouver have stops on the local mass transit. Los Angeles is
> building one.

Is the DC one open now?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 22/06/2022 17:09, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2022 10:24:01 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/06/2022 09:56, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> This account is available to 11-17 year olds who are UK residents.
>>>>
>>>> Buy things in shops or online, and withdraw cash with your contactless
>>>> debit card.
>>>
>>> Beggars belief. Over 16 sure, but pre-teens? What the hell are they thinking?
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> About joining the real world.
>
> Oh right. Presumably you think 11 years should be able to view porn too then?
>

Not come across a debit card you can view porn, or anything else on. In
case you've never seen one, it is a rectangular bit of plastic with an
embedded processor chip. No audio or video facilities.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 22/06/2022 18:23, John Levine wrote:
> According to hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk>:
>> Don't forget the JFK Express; It ran from midtown-Manhattan to Howard
>> Beach-JFK Airport, bypassing many stations. It was also a premium
>> service at $5 -- 400% more expensive than the standard fare of $1 at
>> that time.
>>
>> The problem was that there was at the time no fast connection to the
>> airport from the station, forcing passengers to lug their heavy luggage
>> onto a bus and pay a separate fare. I'm guessing that, along with the
>> low passenger volumes, and the difficulty of last-mile connection to the
>> airport was one of the reasons that it ended.
>
> I took it. It was an ordinary train with an attendant or two. The bus
> from Howard Beach to the terminals was slow but free. Meh.
>
>> I wonder if NYCT would consider reinstating that service in some form,
>> considering the improved ease and speed of transfer. I'm all but certain
>> that the airport end is completely step-free, and they could use that as
>> a factor in determining their premium.
>
> East Side Access is supposed to start running trains between Grand
> Central Terminal and Jamaica in December. I don't see much advantage
> of an additional semi-express A train.
>
> The other possibility is to connect the Airtrain to the LIRR or subway
> to provide a single seat ride to midtown. That was the original plan
> in the 1960s.

AirTrain's structure is budgeted to bear the weight of a New York City
Subway Train, I guess B2/1 division, and I believe that this is an
option for sometime in the future.

The Airtrain's track and loading gauge are similar to
> the subway's so with dual-mode propulsion it wouldn't be technically
> hard to do.

What do you mean by dual-mode? Are you saying that AirTrain rolling
stock could prospectively continue to run with its linear induction
motors, in the event that the structure eventually connects with the
subway?

On 22/06/2022 18:38, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 16:53, John Levine wrote:
>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>> JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>>> sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>>> specialist airport-express trains where they exist.
>>
>> Not that I am aware of but many subway stations have long stairways
>> and no lifts so taking the subway with a lot of luggage is no fun.
>>
>> In the US I can't think of any specialist airport-express trains. At
>> JFK and Newark there are stations on a regular commuter line that
>> connect to the airport tram. The JFK station also connects to the
>> subway which is convenient if you're going to Queens or Brooklyn and
>> often competitive with the train if you're going to places where the
>> E, A, or J trains go that aren't near Penn Station.
>>
>> Philadelphia has a commuter rail branch. Boston, Baltimore, Washington
>> DC, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Seattle, and
>> Vancouver have stops on the local mass transit. Los Angeles is
>> building one.
>
> Is the DC one open now?
>

Yes.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t8sqdd$68r$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:08:13 on Tue, 21 Jun
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> Unlike you, I actually travel to and from the airport by Tube,
>>>
>>> Why do you say "unlike", I've travelled dozens of times. I've recounted
>>> here how Piccadilly from Kings Cross is probably the best. But I'm a
>>> local, this thread is mainly about foreigners in a strange country.
>>>
>>>> and I can assure you that they're full of travellers new
>>>> to London. I bet far more such travellers use the Tube than HEx.
>>>
>>> I think I've cited the figures (about a week ago) and it was 20% tube,
>>> 8% heavy rail. But how many of those 20% are the sort of travellers who
>>> wouldn't attempt the local commuter transport, and eagerly use the
>>> Airport Express rather than take a cab?
>>>
>>>> And the EL will soon take away most of the remaining HEx business,
>>>> given its greater frequency and far better connectivity. Wherever
>>>> visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL services
>>>> will provide the more convenient, and often the faster, link.
>>>
>>> I doubt that will happen because EL is a commuter line and not an
>>> Airport Express.
>>
>> More trains from the same platforms, with a much longer list of direct
>> destinations on offer.
>
> But still not what international passengers are looking for.
>
>>>> All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route maps.
>>>
>>> Which are mind-boggling complicated for someone who has never been to
>>> London before. They stagger off the plane, aren't interested in Googling
>>> how to get to the centre, but have heard of the Airport Express train
>>> and like they do in other strange cities, head for that.
>>
>> You still seem to be living in some dimly-remembered former era when you
>> still travelled, when nobody knew about researching trips on the
>> new-fangled internet.
>
> Oh do give it a rest. You can't possibly believe that's true, or if you
> do your perception of time is even more warped than usual. I last flew
> out of Heathrow not long before lockdown, used the Piccadilly Line, and
> guess what, I extensively researched my destination online and came up
> pretty blank.
>
> So as a seasoned international traveller I did what we always do, and
> rather than get stuck on a local bus with drunks, pickpockets and
> beggars, I took a taxi from the airport to the city centre.
>
> While I was there I eventually penetrated the local commuter transport
> system, understood its considerable foibles and ticketing
> idiosyncrasies, and at the end of the trip just as an experiment took
> what purported to be an airport express bus. They lied. It was just a
> regular one, uncomfortable and slow and no provision for luggage.
>
> Meanwhile, people arriving at Heathrow or Gatwick (and to a lesser
> extent Stansted) will see what they recognise as a proper airport
> express train, waiting on the platform, no rush to get aboard, plenty of
> luggage space, grippers who are sympathetic to the needs of visitors,
> and grab that with both hands.

Your experience of Airport Express trains clearly differs from mine.

My first experience of such was in 2007 (I was somewhat of a latecomer to
international travel though have made up for that since) in Vienna. Being
inexperienced at such travel I hadn't really looked ahead at ways to travel
from the station, though I think I'd heard of City Airport Train (CAT).
Walk out of the terminal, big CAT station entrance opposite, ticket
machines which only offer a choice of single or return, €20
IIRC. Loco-hauled 4-car double deck running every 30 minutes which took us
to what gave the impression of being an abandoned station in the middle of
a building site. Purchase 1-week tourist ticket for public transport, get
U-Bahn to hotel.

Only later did I realise that the S-Bahn also runs every 30 minutes, takes
the same amount of time, runs to a more convenient station in the city and
cost only about €3. Since then I've (a) been better a research (b) been
very wary of 'Airport Express' trains when there's an alternative.

However, I can't OTTOMH recall anywhere else where there actually is a
choice between rip-off Airport Express and non-ripoff normal transit. And
the vast majority of my trips since have used railed public transport
to/from the airport at the destination (except destinations where that's
not available, obviously).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t8t6np$sud$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:38:33 on Tue, 21 Jun
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> A huge number of Heathrow users are actually Brits and they will drift to
>> the EL. HEx doesn’t really take you to a very useful part of London for an
>> inbound tourist. If the HEx was truly THE solution for the boggled tourist
>> they wouldn’t need all these high pressure touts at Heathrow.
>
> The thing about HEx is that international travellers perceive is as part
> of the airport experience. Inbound not quite as much as when outbound
> and you could check in and deposit your luggage at Paddington, but still
> part of the "airport bubble" rather than the city bubble.
>
> Remember that HEx was only ever, and continues to be, not an alternative
> for other public transport, but simply a special visitor-friendly train
> people can get which is an alternative to a taxi. With admittedly
> another taxi onward from Paddington.
>
> I continue to be frustrated why this fundamental business model that's
> so well documented, is so misunderstood.

I think the big problem now is that it leaves you still well outside the
city centre, requiring onward travel; and if that onward travel is by
public transport, the very same mode is available right there at the
airport. I think even habitual users will soon enough start to link the EL
train they catch from Paddington to [X], to the EL train they saw at the
airport with [X] in its calling pattern.

Yes there will still be some who don't, and insist on catching HEx; but if
patronage drops below a certain level, surely it ceases to be viable?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t8v4a0$rdm$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:09:20 on Wed, 22 Jun
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t8so38$muq$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:28:40 on Tue, 21 Jun
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> Wherever visitors to London want to go, one or other of the two TfL
>>>>> services will provide the more convenient, and often the faster,
>>>>> link. All the would-be passengers have to do is to look at the route
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Or indeed, use Google maps.
>>>
>>> How short a memory. When I used Google maps recently to research a trip
>>> from Gibraltar to Madrid, people mocked the way the result didn't accord
>>> with their perception of the nearest railheads.
>>
>> I wasn't paying too much attention to that thread but IIRC it was a very
>> different situation; wasn't the question "closest station to" (ie straight
>> line distance) and you used Google maps to tell you shortest journey time?
>> Which, depending on geography and timetables, may very well be different
>> answers.
>
> I asked it for the best public transport option, expecting perhaps that
> for distances on hundreds of miles that might involve catching a train
> from the nearest(sic) station.
>

And it provided you with that answer (best public transport option for the
journey).

But, for example, if you ask it for a public transport journey from
Abersoch to Manchester, it won't send you to Pwllheli station, despite that
being the nearest.

>> Google maps isn't perfect; some cities have far more detailed public
>> transport information on that platform than others do (eg Pozna0 >time
>> position of every tram shown on Google maps, Toru0 >the tram stop
>> locations shown!) - but in general I've found it pretty
>> reliable for travel planning.
>>
>> And in London it *does* have good public transport data; and it will, very
>> effectively, show you the most effective route from Heathrow to your
>> hotel/office/meeting.
>
> But why would an international traveller visiting London for the first
> time know that?
>

By giving it a try and seeing what it said?

If the website of your destination airport says "lots of tube and rail
connections" and Google maps says "look at all these tube and rail journey
options", it's fair to conclude that it's a reliable source there; if
Google maps says "what train?" then it clearly isn't, and you need a
different source of information. As I found when trying to find a tram in
Torun…

Anna Noyd-Dryver

According to hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk>:
>>> Philadelphia has a commuter rail branch. Boston, Baltimore, Washington
>>> DC, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Seattle, and
>>> Vancouver have stops on the local mass transit. Los Angeles is
>>> building one.
>>
>> Is the DC one open now?
>
>Yes.

The station at National airport, the small airport near the city, opened in 1977.

The station at Dulles airport, the long-haul airport out in the
country with the dramatic, beautiful, and nonfunctinal terminal
building, was finished several years ago but had construction flaws
that they are still fixing. So you have to take a bus to the end of
the open section of the line and change there. It is supposed to open
later this year.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On 22/06/2022 19:50, hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> On 22/06/2022 18:38, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 22/06/2022 16:53, John Levine wrote:
>>> According to Roland Perry  <roland@perry.co.uk>:
>>>> JOOI, does the New York subway system have a ban on large luggage (I'm
>>>> sure I read that somewhere), which is another reason to by default take
>>>> specialist airport-express trains where they exist.
>>>
>>> Not that I am aware of but many subway stations have long stairways
>>> and no lifts so taking the subway with a lot of luggage is no fun.
>>>
>>> In the US I can't think of any specialist airport-express trains. At
>>> JFK and Newark there are stations on a regular commuter line that
>>> connect to the airport tram. The JFK station also connects to the
>>> subway which is convenient if you're going to Queens or Brooklyn and
>>> often competitive with the train if you're going to places where the
>>> E, A, or J trains go that aren't near Penn Station.
>>>
>>> Philadelphia has a commuter rail branch. Boston, Baltimore, Washington
>>> DC, Atlanta, Cleveland, Chicago, Dallas, San Francisco, Seattle, and
>>> Vancouver have stops on the local mass transit. Los Angeles is
>>> building one.
>>
>> Is the DC one open now?
>>
>
> Yes.

They were still building it when I was there last, juat realised that's
nearly 10 years ago!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.