On Mon 28/11/2022 14:02, Max Demian wrote:
> On 27/11/2022 19:19, Woody wrote:
>> On Sun 27/11/2022 17:25, Max Demian wrote:
>>> On 27/11/2022 16:33, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 08:47:50 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 26/11/2022 23:28, Rink wrote:
>>>>>>> 198 UK (4 transmitters)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The BBC should just tell the government that they will only
>>>>>> continue on
>>>>>> Long Wave if fully funded by government and use the money save to
>>>>>> complete DAB coverage.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Some might say they should scrap DAB and focus on BBC Sounds.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How does that work in the car?
>>>
>>> Everyone has Internet access everywhere, didn't you know? This is how
>>> people can access parking apps to pay for parking now there aren't
>>> any coin machines. Do keep up!
>>>
>>
>> SOT: I found out yesterday that you can in effect be penalised if you
>> don't pay by card, i.e. you use cash.
>>
>> Bought some long like milk from a German supermarket about ten days
>> ago, all dated for 5 Dec. Yesterday we found the fourth (of six)
>> bottles had curdled. The remaining two were also off. I went to the
>> store and because I couldn't produce a receipt (for a cash
>> transaction!) of ten days ago they were not interested unless I could
>> tell them the time and day I bought the milk. Who keeps a receipt for
>> a small cash transaction for (in theory) three weeks in case something
>> goes wrong?They didn't answer that question.)
>> On the other hand if I had paid cashless they would be able to
>> back-trace the card number I used and would resolve the issue.
> If it's already "gone off" I don't see how it matters when it was
> bought. I suppose they might claim you haven't stored it in the fridge
> since you bought it, but a receipt won't show that.
>
> I found in the summer that milk and cream often went off before the "use
> by" date: presumably it wasn't transported and stored at the correct
> temperature. Perhaps the delivery was left in the Sun before it was
> taken in.
>
That was exactly the point I made - an own-brand product clearly dated
5th Dec - but it made no difference, unless I had the receipt or knew
the time and date of purchase they were not interested. The departing
line from them was "we can't just give away milk you know."

As I said I'm off their train now. Not too bad though, Morrisons is only
just down the road their milk lasts typically 10-12 days and its a darn
site cheaper than the filtered white stuff from .........

On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
>>
>> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
>> repeater or filler.
>>
>> and its Dartford.....
>>
> How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?

From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
answer is not very well.

On Monday, 28 November 2022 at 10:33:29 UTC, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 28/11/2022 10:16, MB wrote:
> >
> > There is also the risk of prosecution if you touch the phone to change
> > station.
> If you have a rozzer sat in the car with you, I suppose there is. (I'm
> not condoling the practice BTW)
Rozzer? I thought I was the king of archaic slang! What's a young lad like you doing using such expressions?
Bill

On 28/11/2022 16:59, Woody wrote:
> On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
>>>
>>> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
>>> repeater or filler.
>>>
>>> and its Dartford.....
>>>
>> How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?
>
> From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
> answer is not very well.
I've never been able to find out how the tunnel leaky feeder systems
work in the UK.

I've heard it said some have the facility to replace all the stations
they are relaying with an emergency announcement, and also overwrite the
RDS streams with the emergency flag, for obvious reasons.

I just can't imagine it. All I can imagine in the UK are some wideband
transposers taking in everything receivable on LW, MW, and FM and
blasting them into a leaky feeder, hoping for the best. Housed in a rack
in the back of some rat invested damp plant room ?

On Mon 28/11/2022 18:25, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 28/11/2022 16:59, Woody wrote:
>> On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
>>>> repeater or filler.
>>>>
>>>> and its Dartford.....
>>>>
>>> How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?
>>
>> From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
>> answer is not very well.
> I've never been able to find out how the tunnel leaky feeder systems
> work in the UK.
>
> I've heard it said some have the facility to replace all the stations
> they are relaying with an emergency announcement, and also overwrite the
> RDS streams with the emergency flag, for obvious reasons.
>
> I just can't imagine it. All I can imagine in the UK are some wideband
> transposers taking in everything receivable on LW, MW, and FM and
> blasting them into a leaky feeder, hoping for the best. Housed in a rack
> in the back of some rat invested damp plant room ?

One of the tunnels - can't remember if it is Dartford or Blackwall or
maybe even Kingsway in Liverpool or the Tyne tunnel - has a couple of
big VHF yagis in the roof pointing down the tunnel and similar along the
tunnel. Certainly VHF/FM never drops out. Must have been a while back
though as I never had the chance to try it with DAB.

On 28/11/2022 18:25, Mark Carver wrote:
> I just can't imagine it. All I can imagine in the UK are some wideband
> transposers taking in everything receivable on LW, MW, and FM and
> blasting them into a leaky feeder, hoping for the best. Housed in a rack
> in the back of some rat invested damp plant room ?

Probably re-engineered now but didn't the system in Broadcasting House
have a seperate VHF FM transmitter for each service then all combined
together and fed around the building. Not leaky feeder but similarities
in the principle.

In article <jukco5Fg9noU1@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 28/11/2022 16:59, Woody wrote:
> > On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
> >> On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
> >>> repeater or filler.
> >>>
> >>> and its Dartford.....
> >>>
> >> How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?
> >
> > From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
> > answer is not very well.
> I've never been able to find out how the tunnel leaky feeder systems
> work in the UK.

> I've heard it said some have the facility to replace all the stations
> they are relaying with an emergency announcement, and also overwrite the
> RDS streams with the emergency flag, for obvious reasons.

> I just can't imagine it. All I can imagine in the UK are some wideband
> transposers taking in everything receivable on LW, MW, and FM and
> blasting them into a leaky feeder, hoping for the best. Housed in a rack
> in the back of some rat invested damp plant room ?

There ought to be a BBC Research Dept Report. They did the initial tests in
the Dartford Tunnel.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 28/11/2022 18:25, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 28/11/2022 16:59, Woody wrote:
>> On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
>>>> repeater or filler.
>>>>
>>>> and its Dartford.....
>>>>
>>> How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?
>>
>> From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
>> answer is not very well.
> I've never been able to find out how the tunnel leaky feeder systems
> work in the UK.
>
> I've heard it said some have the facility to replace all the stations
> they are relaying with an emergency announcement, and also overwrite the
> RDS streams with the emergency flag, for obvious reasons.
>
> I just can't imagine it. All I can imagine in the UK are some wideband
> transposers taking in everything receivable on LW, MW, and FM and
> blasting them into a leaky feeder, hoping for the best. Housed in a rack
> in the back of some rat invested damp plant room ?

According to TfL in Blackwall:

"The leaky feeder is a coaxial cable with sections of the outer
screening removed at regular intervals so that the radio signals can
“leak” from he cable.

The primary purpose of the system is to provide radio coverage in the
event of an incident in order to inform the general public via mobile
phone coverage and radio channels. The radio systems primary purpose is
to broadcast evacuation messages in the event of an emergency."

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0045-1920

And IME it results in piss poor reception for FM, especially in the
Northbound tunnel
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Mon 28/11/2022 23:46, Robin wrote:
> On 28/11/2022 18:25, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 28/11/2022 16:59, Woody wrote:
>>> On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>> On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
>>>>> repeater or filler.
>>>>>
>>>>> and its Dartford.....
>>>>>
>>>> How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?
>>>
>>> From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
>>> answer is not very well.
>> I've never been able to find out how the tunnel leaky feeder systems
>> work in the UK.
>>
>> I've heard it said some have the facility to replace all the stations
>> they are relaying with an emergency announcement, and also overwrite
>> the RDS streams with the emergency flag, for obvious reasons.
>>
>> I just can't imagine it. All I can imagine in the UK are some wideband
>> transposers taking in everything receivable on LW, MW, and FM and
>> blasting them into a leaky feeder, hoping for the best. Housed in a
>> rack in the back of some rat invested damp plant room ?
>
> According to TfL in Blackwall:
>
> "The  leaky feeder is a coaxial cable with sections of the outer
> screening removed at regular intervals so that the radio signals can
> “leak” from he cable.
>
> The primary purpose of the system is to provide radio coverage in the
> event of an incident  in order to inform the general public via mobile
> phone coverage and radio channels.  The radio systems primary purpose is
> to broadcast evacuation messages in the event of an emergency."
>
> https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0045-1920
>
> And IME it results in piss poor reception for FM, especially in the
> Northbound tunnel

The primary use of leaky feeder is for VHF and UHF two-way
communications. Some of the first tests of it were done by Pye Telecom
in the Headstone Tunnel (locally known as Monsal Head Tunnel) near
Bakewell in Derbyshire because it has a double bend in it so there
cannot be plain end-to-end coverage. [The tunnel is now part of the
Monsal Trail and the national cycle network, is free access and is well
lit.] At VHF and UHF it worked well because of signal attenuation and
the cable being many wavelengths long.
Conversely Dartford is largely straight and worst of all is only a few
wavelengths long. Hence there will be many reflections and refractions
that mutually interfere with each other and can make mobile reception
near impossible.
If they can give enhanced R4LW coverage in London but using MW, why
didn't they just put that repeater on MW (given that it was probably
done when the uptake of VHF car radios was still in its infancy)? My
guess, as ever, is that the cost was a significant problem.

In article <tm0atn$1ngst$2@dont-email.me>, SH <i.love@spam.com> wrote:
> On 27/11/2022 18:14, MB wrote:
> > On 27/11/2022 16:14, Scott wrote:
> >> Some might say they should scrap DAB and focus on BBC Sounds.
> >
> >
> > Not very helpful to peopl who want to listen to the RADIO in the car
> > etc.
> >
> >

> it is if you have a 4g router to Wifi in the car.........

....and the car. :-)

In terms of *radio* the advantage of DAB(+) is akin to that of DVB. It
makes more stations easily available at relatively low cost/bother.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 28/11/2022 10:03, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In terms of*radio* the advantage of DAB(+) is akin to that of DVB. It
> makes more stations easily available at relatively low cost/bother.

And was specifically designed to cope with mobile reception.

In article <tm2pdb$20k2q$3@dont-email.me>, Woody
<harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
> > On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
> >>
> >> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
> >> repeater or filler.
> >>
> >> and its Dartford.....
> >>
> > How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?

> From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
> answer is not very well.

I'd guess it *could* be made more efficient by loading it to make it
resonant. But no doubt the internal losses also go up. What kind of power
do they poke into them?

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <jukco5Fg9noU1@mid.individual.net>, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 28/11/2022 16:59, Woody wrote:
> > On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
> >> On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
> >>> repeater or filler.
> >>>
> >>> and its Dartford.....
> >>>
> >> How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?
> >
> > From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
> > answer is not very well.
> I've never been able to find out how the tunnel leaky feeder systems
> work in the UK.

> I've heard it said some have the facility to replace all the stations
> they are relaying with an emergency announcement, and also overwrite the
> RDS streams with the emergency flag, for obvious reasons.

> I just can't imagine it. All I can imagine in the UK are some wideband
> transposers taking in everything receivable on LW, MW, and FM and
> blasting them into a leaky feeder, hoping for the best. Housed in a rack
> in the back of some rat invested damp plant room ?

Can the 'feeder' be a balanced pair at the top and bottom of the tunnel? If
so, the vehicles will be in the waveguide/elements.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Tue 29/11/2022 09:47, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <tm2pdb$20k2q$3@dont-email.me>, Woody
> <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>> On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
>>>> repeater or filler.
>>>>
>>>> and its Dartford.....
>>>>
>>> How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?
>
>> From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
>> answer is not very well.
>
> I'd guess it *could* be made more efficient by loading it to make it
> resonant. But no doubt the internal losses also go up. What kind of power
> do they poke into them?
>

At Dartford, 4W

On 30/11/2022 10:55, Woody wrote:
> On Tue 29/11/2022 09:47, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>> In article <tm2pdb$20k2q$3@dont-email.me>, Woody
>> <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Mon 28/11/2022 16:55, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>> On 27/11/2022 19:12, Woody wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Technically I wouldn't call that a broadcast site, more like a
>>>>> repeater or filler.
>>>>>
>>>>> and its Dartford.....
>>>>>
>>>> How does a leaky feeder Tx work at LF anyway ?
>>
>>>   From what I used to know about such (and I dealt with a few!) the
>>> answer is not very well.
>>
>> I'd guess it *could* be made more efficient by loading it to make it
>> resonant. But no doubt the internal losses also go up. What kind of
>> power
>> do they poke into them?
>>
>
> At Dartford, 4W
>
>
The MF services at Dartford are quoted at 4 watts too on Ofcom Tech
Parameters, (I don't know where the 4 w figure for 198 kHz comes from ?)
However, the 4 watt MF values are EMRP, so it could be significantly
more being stuffed into the leaky feeder?

In article <tm26jv$1v8kr$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> scribeth
thus
>On 28/11/2022 10:33, Mark Carver wrote:
>> If you have a rozzer sat in the car with you, I suppose there is. (I'm
>> not condoling the practice BTW)
>
>
>Just need police driving past and say he saw you touch your phone -
>don't forget they have people in HGVs that can look down into your car.
>
>Or a certain annoying Radio 2 presenter could cycle past with his helmet
>cameras.
>
>

My phone is in my left hand pocket i can make Rx calls from the car
screen and buttons so i presume thats all legal?.

Course the legalisation isn't keeping up with the tech is it?..
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 09:43:02 -0800 (PST), wrightsaerials@aol.com
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:

> On Monday, 28 November 2022 at 10:33:29 UTC, Mark Carver wrote:

>> If you have a rozzer sat in the car with you, I suppose there is. (I'm
>> not condoling the practice BTW)
>
> Rozzer? I thought I was the king of archaic slang! What's a young lad like you doing using such expressions?

James May used it a few years ago on TG - "Cripes, it's the Albanian rozzers" and
he's about the same age as us.
(Of course there are no Albanian rozzers any more, as they're all over here (allegedly).)

On Thu, 01 Dec 2022 13:13:04 GMT, Paul Ratcliffe
<abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 09:43:02 -0800 (PST), wrightsaerials@aol.com
><wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, 28 November 2022 at 10:33:29 UTC, Mark Carver wrote:
>
>>> If you have a rozzer sat in the car with you, I suppose there is. (I'm
>>> not condoling the practice BTW)
>>
>> Rozzer? I thought I was the king of archaic slang! What's a young lad like you doing using such expressions?
>
>James May used it a few years ago on TG - "Cripes, it's the Albanian rozzers" and
>he's about the same age as us.
>(Of course there are no Albanian rozzers any more, as they're all over here (allegedly).)

Round here (Liverpool) we call them the bizzies.

Rod.

On Thu, 01 Dec 2022 14:55:04 +0000, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Thu, 01 Dec 2022 13:13:04 GMT, Paul Ratcliffe
><abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 09:43:02 -0800 (PST), wrightsaerials@aol.com
>><wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, 28 November 2022 at 10:33:29 UTC, Mark Carver wrote:
>>
>>>> If you have a rozzer sat in the car with you, I suppose there is. (I'm
>>>> not condoling the practice BTW)
>>>
>>> Rozzer? I thought I was the king of archaic slang! What's a young lad like you doing using such expressions?
>>
>>James May used it a few years ago on TG - "Cripes, it's the Albanian rozzers" and
>>he's about the same age as us.
>>(Of course there are no Albanian rozzers any more, as they're all over here (allegedly).)
>
> Round here (Liverpool) we call them the bizzies.

Who? The Albanians or the rozzers?

Anyway, about 45s in on here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OA9mA176mA

On 01/12/2022 14:55, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Dec 2022 13:13:04 GMT, Paul Ratcliffe
> <abuse@orac12.clara34.co56.uk78> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 09:43:02 -0800 (PST), wrightsaerials@aol.com
>> <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, 28 November 2022 at 10:33:29 UTC, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>> If you have a rozzer sat in the car with you, I suppose there is. (I'm
>>>> not condoling the practice BTW)
>>> Rozzer? I thought I was the king of archaic slang! What's a young lad like you doing using such expressions?
>> James May used it a few years ago on TG - "Cripes, it's the Albanian rozzers" and
>> he's about the same age as us.
>> (Of course there are no Albanian rozzers any more, as they're all over here (allegedly).)
> Round here (Liverpool) we call them the bizzies.
I only discovered that after watching an episode of Brookside.

On Thursday, 1 December 2022 at 18:27:49 UTC, Mark Carver wrote:

> > Round here (Liverpool) we call them the bizzies.
> I only discovered that after watching an episode of Brookside.
And you were only watching it because it was the first day of Channel Four and you wanted to see what the reception was like, since it was transmitted at an unfeasibly high frequency in your area.
Bill

On 01/12/2022 14:55, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> Round here (Liverpool) we call them the bizzies.

I remember when I was college in North Wales we called them the 'bules'
as in 'constabule'. I suspect it came from a radio programme, possibly
the Goons.

On 02/12/2022 04:16, wrightsaerials@aol.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 1 December 2022 at 18:27:49 UTC, Mark Carver wrote:
>
>>> Round here (Liverpool) we call them the bizzies.
>> I only discovered that after watching an episode of Brookside.
> And you were only watching it because it was the first day of Channel Four and you wanted to see what the reception was like, since it was transmitted at an unfeasibly high frequency in your area.
Ha, well indeed it was, though on C4's opening day I was away living as
a student in Plymouth, where reception depended upon the level of a gas
holder that was between my digs and Caradon Hill [1]. The Plympton relay
didn't carry C4 from day one, in fact I seem to recall it was only
equipped about a week after I'd finished. Now, if I was more paranoid......

[1] BBC 1 on Ch 22 was the worst affected, it would completely vanish
some days. C4 on Ch 32 was the actually least affected

"Woody" <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:tipf5f$3d4g$1@dont-email.me...
> On Wed 19/10/2022 18:37, MB wrote:

>> Have you ever heard the VHF network running on RBS up the country!

If they switched to mono (ie. no stereo pilot tone or subcarrier) I
would expect the audio output to be adequate even at more distant
transmitters, but RDS data sent via RBS would likely be unreliable.

> Oh yes, and its tested at least once every year, usually around this
> time of year IMSMC.

They do? Any dates?
Which TX is used as the source and how is this fed during RBS?

"Scott" <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message news:a637ohhs3dt82c4mt5681p8bh3apaik4qc@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 08:47:50 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>On 26/11/2022 23:28, Rink wrote:
>>> 198 UK (4 transmitters)
>>
>>
>>The BBC should just tell the government that they will only continue on
>>Long Wave if fully funded by government and use the money save to
>>complete DAB coverage.
>>
> Some might say they should scrap DAB and focus on BBC Sounds.

If they're going to keep it they should at least ditch all the junk
stations (small audience, same old music content replayed for years as if
on autopilot) and enforce a minimum bitrate for the remaining, more
popular services.
At present the quality of most DAB stations is a national embarassment imho.