On 2021-11-27, Richard Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:
> Bernard Peek said:

>>
>> For every problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious amd wrong.
>>
>> H.L. Mencken
>
> This doesn't preclude the possibilty of a solution that is simple,
> obvious and not necessarily wrong..

That's true. Mencken's quote is a sweeping generalisation and sweeping
genaralisations are always wrong.

My variant of Mencken's original idea expands on it a bit. I specifically
refer to intractable problems. They are generaly intractable for good
reason. If someone comes up with a simple solution it's generally a safe bet
that they don't or won't understand the whole problem.

--
Bernard Peek
bap@shrdlu.com

On 2021-11-27, Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:
> On 2021-11-27, Maus <Greymaus@mail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I read a book once about the people who were experimenting on powering
>> planes with nuclear? Most woukld be better kept in Loony Bins.
>
> There are Russian planes in use as mobile nuclear generating stations.
>
>>
>> Or the people who are hoping to power spaceships with nuclear
>> explosions?
>
> Project Orion. It's still under development. The latest version plans to
> use laser-ignited fusion pellets about the size of a grain of rice. It
> requires helium-3 that would have to be mined on the moon.
>
>>
>> There is a story that the Soviets had a plan to dig a canal to bring
>> water from North flowing rivers to restore water to the caspian?.. It
>> sounded crazy, and was crazy, the water flowing through such a can would
>> be highly radioactive.
>
> Project Plowshare was the American equivalent. How much radiation there was
> would be very dependent on the type of bomb used. Done properly the
> radiation leakage would be insignificant.

Dr. Strangelove, A couple of million at most (roughly)
>
>>
>> Well, Cheer up, there are still people crazy enough to propose that,
>> i.e, the Israelis, who want to blast a channel from Aquaba to Gaza.
>
> It's viable. The main problem with nuclear power is the fear it induces.
>
> In general fear is inversely proportional to risk.
>
> One of my favourite science books is "Living With Risk" published by the BMA
> in 1990. If more people had read it the antivaxx movement wouldn't have
> started. The world would be a much saner and happier place.
>
>a

Yeah, right! Keep drinking the coolaid.

--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!

On 27 Nov 2021 19:31:09 GMT
Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:

> and sweeping genaralisations are always wrong.

including this one.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 27 Nov 2021 19:11:25 GMT
Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:

> On 2021-11-27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> > ----
> > Due to the magnetic compression thrust technology, spacecraft could be
> > smaller and lighter. The spacecraft itself would only need to carry a
> > relatively small amount of fissionable material as fuel, and would be
> > able to reach speeds of approximately 10% of the speed of light.
>
>
> Yes. But not with enough oomph left to slow down at the other end. All of
> the interstellar plans that I've seen involve taking a lot of pictures in
> the two or three seconds that you are close enough to get a look at a
> planet.

Yeah like the starwhisp designs.

The interstellar plan for the mini-mag is more interesting -
fuelling in flight with a stream of laser pushed pellets and a magnetic
sail for deceleration. It seems possible but ridiculously expensive (about
the same as the starwhisp). On the other hand it seems to me that it's a
more useful interplanetary design - anything that can manage a decent
continuous thrust makes the solar system a *lot* smaller - it might even
put the Oort cloud in reach.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 25/11/2021 20:16, Tone wrote:
>
> Whist I in no way condone people-trafficking, the problem is the
> suffering the refugees are subject to in their own countries.
>
> The solution is to give them safe passage.

Or to do something about the initial cause. The Kurds need a proper
homeland rather than being an oppressed minority in three countries,
Afghanistan needs re-occupying and the Taliban wiped out, Syria needs
some resolution one way or the other, and Yemen needs to have Saudi
Arabia stop bombing it and the UK stopping giving arms to Saudi Arabia
to bomb Yemen with. The UN could be a force for good if the veto of the
five permanent members of the Security Council was abolished.

On 27/11/2021 20:45, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 25/11/2021 20:16, Tone wrote:
>>
>> Whist I in no way condone people-trafficking, the problem is the
>> suffering the refugees are subject to in their own countries.
>>
>> The solution is to give them safe passage.
>
> Or to do something about the initial cause. The Kurds need a proper
> homeland rather than being an oppressed minority in three countries,
> Afghanistan needs re-occupying and the Taliban wiped out, Syria needs
> some resolution one way or the other, and Yemen needs to have Saudi
> Arabia stop bombing it and the UK stopping giving arms to Saudi Arabia
> to bomb Yemen with. The UN could be a force for good if the veto of the
> five permanent members of the Security Council was abolished.
>

Giving them safe passage is a tad easier.

It might also help to solve our harvesting, NHS and care employment
shortfall if we accept them.

Tone

Tone <email@address.com> wrote in news:snu8kr$g84$1@dont-email.me:

> Giving them safe passage is a tad easier.
>
> It might also help to solve our harvesting, NHS and care employment
> shortfall if we accept them.

"Harvesting, NHS" made me think of Ishiguru's "Never let me go". I
suppose it's a solution theoretically but I'm pretty sure there are laws
against that sort of thing.

--
Peter
-----

On 2021-11-27, Tone <email@address.com> wrote:
> On 27/11/2021 20:45, Mike Fleming wrote:
>> On 25/11/2021 20:16, Tone wrote:
>>>
>>> Whist I in no way condone people-trafficking, the problem is the
>>> suffering the refugees are subject to in their own countries.
>>>
>>> The solution is to give them safe passage.
>>
>> Or to do something about the initial cause. The Kurds need a proper
>> homeland rather than being an oppressed minority in three countries,
>> Afghanistan needs re-occupying and the Taliban wiped out, Syria needs
>> some resolution one way or the other, and Yemen needs to have Saudi
>> Arabia stop bombing it and the UK stopping giving arms to Saudi Arabia
>> to bomb Yemen with. The UN could be a force for good if the veto of the
>> five permanent members of the Security Council was abolished.
>>
>
> Giving them safe passage is a tad easier.
>
> It might also help to solve our harvesting, NHS and care employment
> shortfall if we accept them.
>
> Tone

If the migrants want to harvest things from frigid fields, wipe English
arses, or drive long distance trucks. From what I read, government
artistry is more to their taste. What is happening is like the great
movement of blacks to the northern states years ago.

--
greymausg@mail.com
That's not a mousehole!

On 2021-11-27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 27 Nov 2021 19:11:25 GMT
> Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2021-11-27, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> > ----
>> > Due to the magnetic compression thrust technology, spacecraft could be
>> > smaller and lighter. The spacecraft itself would only need to carry a
>> > relatively small amount of fissionable material as fuel, and would be
>> > able to reach speeds of approximately 10% of the speed of light.
>>
>>
>> Yes. But not with enough oomph left to slow down at the other end. All of
>> the interstellar plans that I've seen involve taking a lot of pictures in
>> the two or three seconds that you are close enough to get a look at a
>> planet.
>
> Yeah like the starwhisp designs.
>
> The interstellar plan for the mini-mag is more interesting -
> fuelling in flight with a stream of laser pushed pellets and a magnetic
> sail for deceleration. It seems possible but ridiculously expensive (about
> the same as the starwhisp). On the other hand it seems to me that it's a
> more useful interplanetary design - anything that can manage a decent
> continuous thrust makes the solar system a *lot* smaller - it might even
> put the Oort cloud in reach.
>
As engineering improves we are pushing further towards the point where the
whole production cycle from mining through refining, manufacturing and
maintenance can be fully automated. At that point the cost of probes falls
to zero.

--
Bernard Peek
bap@shrdlu.com

On 2021-11-27, Mike Fleming <mike@tauzero.co.uk> wrote:
> On 25/11/2021 20:16, Tone wrote:
>>
>> Whist I in no way condone people-trafficking, the problem is the
>> suffering the refugees are subject to in their own countries.
>>
>> The solution is to give them safe passage.
>
> Or to do something about the initial cause. The Kurds need a proper
> homeland rather than being an oppressed minority in three countries,
> Afghanistan needs re-occupying and the Taliban wiped out, Syria needs
> some resolution one way or the other, and Yemen needs to have Saudi
> Arabia stop bombing it and the UK stopping giving arms to Saudi Arabia
> to bomb Yemen with. The UN could be a force for good if the veto of the
> five permanent members of the Security Council was abolished.
>
Afghanistan is still the graveyard of empires. Conquering it and defeating
the Taliban is probably not possible at any price. It's a big country with
lots of places to hide in.

The biggest cause of crime, including terrorism, is poverty. Building some
sort of productive industry in the country in the country is going to be
more effective, much cheaper but not fast. While the Americans still think
that 100 years is a long time they aren't going to have an effective foreign
policy.

As I've said before, global warming is threatening existing coffee producing
areas. Setting up coffee plantations in Afghanistan could fix multiple
problems.

--
Bernard Peek
bap@shrdlu.com

On 2021-11-27, Tone <email@address.com> wrote:
> On 27/11/2021 20:45, Mike Fleming wrote:
>> On 25/11/2021 20:16, Tone wrote:
>>>
>>> Whist I in no way condone people-trafficking, the problem is the
>>> suffering the refugees are subject to in their own countries.
>>>
>>> The solution is to give them safe passage.
>>
>> Or to do something about the initial cause. The Kurds need a proper
>> homeland rather than being an oppressed minority in three countries,
>> Afghanistan needs re-occupying and the Taliban wiped out, Syria needs
>> some resolution one way or the other, and Yemen needs to have Saudi
>> Arabia stop bombing it and the UK stopping giving arms to Saudi Arabia
>> to bomb Yemen with. The UN could be a force for good if the veto of the
>> five permanent members of the Security Council was abolished.
>>
>
> Giving them safe passage is a tad easier.
>
> It might also help to solve our harvesting, NHS and care employment
> shortfall if we accept them.

Very true. The rule of thumb is that every immigrant adds about £50k to the
UK economy over their liftetime. We need more of them.

They also send zbarl back to their families in their home countries. That
reduces poverty there and could cut the need for foreign aid. It's win/win,
except for Disgusted of Royal Tunbridge Wells.

--
Bernard Peek
bap@shrdlu.com

On 28 Nov 2021 11:21:25 GMT
Bernard Peek <bap@shrdlu.com> wrote:

> As engineering improves we are pushing further towards the point where the
> whole production cycle from mining through refining, manufacturing and
> maintenance can be fully automated. At that point the cost of probes falls
> to zero.

That is true - and I look forward to seeing that day because that
day is also the end of the scarcity economy we've had ever since Og traded
something with Ug for the first time.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

In article <slrnsq6qi9.c0j.bap@localhost.localdomain>, Bernard Peek
<bap@shrdlu.com> on Sun, 28 Nov 2021 at 11:38:49 awoke Nicholas from
his slumbers and wrote
>On 2021-11-27, Mike Fleming <mike@tauzero.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/11/2021 20:16, Tone wrote:
>>>
>>> Whist I in no way condone people-trafficking, the problem is the
>>> suffering the refugees are subject to in their own countries.
>>>
>>> The solution is to give them safe passage.
>>
>> Or to do something about the initial cause. The Kurds need a proper
>> homeland rather than being an oppressed minority in three countries,
>> Afghanistan needs re-occupying and the Taliban wiped out, Syria needs
>> some resolution one way or the other, and Yemen needs to have Saudi
>> Arabia stop bombing it and the UK stopping giving arms to Saudi Arabia
>> to bomb Yemen with. The UN could be a force for good if the veto of the
>> five permanent members of the Security Council was abolished.
>>
>Afghanistan is still the graveyard of empires. Conquering it and defeating
>the Taliban is probably not possible at any price. It's a big country with
>lots of places to hide in.
>
>The biggest cause of crime, including terrorism, is poverty. Building some
>sort of productive industry in the country in the country is going to be
>more effective, much cheaper but not fast. While the Americans still think
>that 100 years is a long time they aren't going to have an effective foreign
>policy.
>
>As I've said before, global warming is threatening existing coffee producing
>areas. Setting up coffee plantations in Afghanistan could fix multiple
>problems.
>
>
cf Kenyan Ground Nut Scheme. That went well.

Apparently the opium poppy grows well there.
--
0sterc@tcher -

"Où sont les neiges d'antan?"

Bernard Peek said:
> On 2021-11-27, Richard Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:
>> Bernard Peek said:
>>> On 2021-11-26, Nicholas D. Richards <nicholas@salmiron.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <tuydndIO9eI2cz38nZ2dnUU78UOdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, Richard
>>>> Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> on Fri, 26 Nov 2021 at 08:26:51 awoke
>>>> Nicholas from his slumbers and wrote
>>>>>Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
>>>>>> On Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:47:38 -0000
>>>>>> "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can remember back in my youth being told that by the time I grew up
>>>>>>> there would be a world Government where everyone was free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that many thought it was that or we'd all be dead in the
>>>>>> aftermath of all out nuclear war. In 1980 I would not have bet on seeing
>>>>>> 2000.
>>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps it's like civil nuclear fusion, always 20 years off ?
>>>>>
>>>> And meanwhile effective treatment of nuclear fission waste is millenia
>>>> away.
>>>
>>> That mostly depends on what you think effective means. Radioisptopes are
>>> either highly radioactive or long-lived. None of them are highly radioactive
>>> /and/ long-lived.
>>
>> Is plutonium mis-named, then ?
>
> There are several different isotopes pf plutonium. Pu-239 is the one they
> use in bombs. Half-life abput 25K years. It's very toxic though so avoid
> eating it.

Yes, that was my point.

Also, Military Applications. I'd be a lot more accepting of nuclear
power if it wasn't for the bombs.

> The highly radioactive stuff is waste containing fission-products. There are
> lots of different ones. On average the radioactivity of spent fuel-rods from
> reactors falls by half every 20 years or so.
>
>

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Bernard Peek said:
>
>
> All of
> the interstellar plans that I've seen involve taking a lot of pictures in
> the two or three seconds that you are close enough to get a look at a
> planet.

In which context, allow me to commend NASA's Astronomy Picture of the
Day, https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Mike Fleming said:
> On 25/11/2021 20:16, Tone wrote:
>>
>> Whist I in no way condone people-trafficking, the problem is the
>> suffering the refugees are subject to in their own countries.
>>
>> The solution is to give them safe passage.
>
> Or to do something about the initial cause. The Kurds need a proper
> homeland rather than being an oppressed minority in three countries,
> Afghanistan needs re-occupying and the Taliban wiped out, Syria needs
> some resolution one way or the other, and Yemen needs to have Saudi
> Arabia stop bombing it and the UK stopping giving arms to Saudi Arabia
> to bomb Yemen with. The UN could be a force for good if the veto of the
> five permanent members of the Security Council was abolished.

and as for Palestine ...

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Maus said:
> On 2021-11-27, Tone <email@address.com> wrote:
>> On 27/11/2021 20:45, Mike Fleming wrote:
>>> On 25/11/2021 20:16, Tone wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Whist I in no way condone people-trafficking, the problem is the
>>>> suffering the refugees are subject to in their own countries.
>>>>
>>>> The solution is to give them safe passage.
>>>
>>> Or to do something about the initial cause. The Kurds need a proper
>>> homeland rather than being an oppressed minority in three countries,
>>> Afghanistan needs re-occupying and the Taliban wiped out, Syria needs
>>> some resolution one way or the other, and Yemen needs to have Saudi
>>> Arabia stop bombing it and the UK stopping giving arms to Saudi Arabia
>>> to bomb Yemen with. The UN could be a force for good if the veto of the
>>> five permanent members of the Security Council was abolished.
>>>
>>
>> Giving them safe passage is a tad easier.
>>
>> It might also help to solve our harvesting, NHS and care employment
>> shortfall if we accept them.
>>
>> Tone
>
> If the migrants want to harvest things from frigid fields, wipe English
> arses, or drive long distance trucks. From what I read, government
> artistry is more to their taste. What is happening is like the great
> movement of blacks to the northern states years ago.

They thought they could gett away from oppresion and discovered they
were still getting shat on ?

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Bernard Peek said:
>
> As I've said before, global warming is threatening existing coffee producing
> areas. Setting up coffee plantations in Afghanistan could fix multiple
> problems.

If coffee sold for more than opium.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Nicholas D. Richards said:
> In article <slrnsq6qi9.c0j.bap@localhost.localdomain>, Bernard Peek
>>
>>As I've said before, global warming is threatening existing coffee producing
>>areas. Setting up coffee plantations in Afghanistan could fix multiple
>>problems.
>>
> cf Kenyan Ground Nut Scheme. That went well.

There are reports that quite a lot of men did get their nuts ground.

> Apparently the opium poppy grows well there.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Bernard Peek said:
> On 2021-11-27, Richard Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:
>> Bernard Peek said:
>
>>> For every problem there is a solution that is simple, obvious amd wrong.
>>>
>>> H.L. Mencken
>>
>> This doesn't preclude the possibilty of a solution that is simple,
>> obvious and not necessarily wrong..
>
> That's true. Mencken's quote is a sweeping generalisation and sweeping
> genaralisations are always wrong.
>
> My variant of Mencken's original idea expands on it a bit. I specifically
> refer to intractable problems. They are generaly intractable for good
> reason. If someone comes up with a simple solution it's generally a safe bet
> that they don't or won't understand the whole problem.

Apart from those we just don't notice because they're so obvious.

i'm reminded of a New Scientist article (earlymid80s) on the history of
the pushbike. That's a fairly simple obvious design, you'd think ?
(barring the gearing, possibly). The article was a history of the
strange complicated solutions they came up with before they reached the
simple&obvious-in-retrospect one.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:07:31 -0600
Richard Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:

> Also, Military Applications. I'd be a lot more accepting of nuclear
> power if it wasn't for the bombs.

I really wish more work was being done on pebble bed designs, the
problems don't seem insoluble and they can be made to run on thorium which
is rather more common than uranium 235. They also can't melt down or
produce plutonium.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:14:46 -0600
Richard Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:

> In which context, allow me to commend NASA's Astronomy Picture of the
> Day, https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/

Spectacular I didn't know we had pictures that good of any comets.
Page bookmarked - I might see about making it into a backdrop generator.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:54:32 -0600
Richard Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:

> i'm reminded of a New Scientist article (earlymid80s) on the history of
> the pushbike. That's a fairly simple obvious design, you'd think ?

Hmm Penny Farthing - I tried to ride one once and just kept falling
off.

> (barring the gearing, possibly). The article was a history of the
> strange complicated solutions they came up with before they reached the
> simple&obvious-in-retrospect one.

It makes you wonder how many Heath Robinson gadgets we use today
could be replaced by much simpler mechanisms if only someone would dream
them up.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:07:31 -0600
> Richard Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> Also, Military Applications. I'd be a lot more accepting of nuclear
>> power if it wasn't for the bombs.
>
> I really wish more work was being done on pebble bed designs, the
> problems don't seem insoluble and they can be made to run on thorium which
> is rather more common than uranium 235. They also can't melt down or
> produce plutonium.

Yes. "Nuclear" is too broad, we need that sort of detail.

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Ahem A Rivet's Shot said:
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2021 08:14:46 -0600
> Richard Robinson <richardR@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> In which context, allow me to commend NASA's Astronomy Picture of the
>> Day, https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/
>
> Spectacular I didn't know we had pictures that good of any comets.
> Page bookmarked - I might see about making it into a backdrop generator.

Yes. There's the occasional one that looks a bit like filler, but mostly
.... wow!

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html