https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2023/apr/15/brexit-orient-express-murder-london-folkestone-leg-route-border-delays

In message <u1epc6$24jrg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:18 on Sat, 15 Apr
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2023/apr/15/brexit-orient-express-mur
>der-london-folkestone-leg-route-border-delays

A particularly poignant article because the Brexiteers' argument has
always been "We managed to cross the Channel before we joined the EU
(they really mean "EEC") and so what's the problem".
--
Roland Perry

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
> would have had to be cut, anyway.

The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
would go straight through. The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU
passports' window which would take a bit longer, but similar queues at
airports have existed for a long time. However, now >50% of travellers need
to use it, the system is overwhelmed.

What was the prior position at the ferry and tunnel terminals? I've only
crossed borders by coach in the Balkans, and there the driver takes your
passport, hands them over to the border guards, who do whatever checks while
you're sitting on the coach. Do the ferries etc have a terminal where you
walk through an 'EU border' with desks, queues, etc, or is the idea you stay
on the coach?

If you need to do the terminal desk thing with fingerprints etc, I'm not
sure how that works with car drivers since they can't really park the car at
the 'landside' of the border, go through control and then collect it
'airside'.

VSOE could operate the service using the ferry as foot passengers: deliver
pax by coach to the terminal in good time, let them do the border thing and
board the ferry by themselves. Meanwhile send over a van with the luggage.
At the other end a French coach collects them to go to Calais station. But
that doesn't work if the sailings are messed up with other border delays.

Theo

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16 Apr 2023 14:54:12 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
> >> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
> >> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
> >> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
> >> would have had to be cut, anyway.
> >
> >The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
> >border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
> >would go straight through.
>
> My guess is that the number of non-EU/UK pax on VSOE is much higher than
> 5%. When I went on Rovos Rail, most of the pax were Americans.

I meant 95% of pax at the border. Hence the border was designed to handle
NNN non-EU per hour and would have processed the NN VSOE pax swiftly.

Now there are NNNN non-EU per hour but the border facilities have not been
upsized tenfold.

> > The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU passports' window which would
> >take a bit longer, but similar queues at airports have existed for a long
> >time. However, now >50% of travellers need to use it, the system is
> >overwhelmed.
>
> How will Irish passport holders be handled at the Schengen border under
> the new system? As EU passport-holders, they have the right to cross the
> border without any need for an ETIAS, but won't they still need to have
> their fingerprints taken and go through the ePassport gates? In fact,
> once ETIAS-holding Brits have had the their images and prints taken the
> first time, will it take any longer for them to cross the border than EU
> citizens?

I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens? They are merely EU
citizens re-entering the EU. They would presumably need an authenticity
check (valid ID card, photo matches human) but no interview/passport
stamping/visa checking.

When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
that.

> Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the
> most tedious such border crossings I did was at the internal border in
> northern Chile.

Where they are actually looking for rebels/smugglers/terrorists is more
fun...
> >If you need to do the terminal desk thing with fingerprints etc, I'm not
> >sure how that works with car drivers since they can't really park the car at
> >the 'landside' of the border, go through control and then collect it
> >'airside'.
>
> Maybe the machines will be immediately adjacent to the car lane?

Perhaps, although the throughput must be quite limited that way.

> >VSOE could operate the service using the ferry as foot passengers: deliver
> >pax by coach to the terminal in good time, let them do the border thing and
> >board the ferry by themselves. Meanwhile send over a van with the luggage.
> >At the other end a French coach collects them to go to Calais station. But
> >that doesn't work if the sailings are messed up with other border delays.
>
> Maybe mixing with ordinary pax on a humble ordinary ferry is not deemed to
> be special enough for VSOE passengers? They would expect to be
> entertained in a grand, 1920s art deco private lounge.

They used to run to Folkestone Harbour. Pity it was closed, otherwise they
could have run their own paddle steamer...

Theo

On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>
>I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens? They are merely EU
>citizens re-entering the EU. They would presumably need an authenticity
>check (valid ID card, photo matches human)

That can include checking the fingerprints against those stored in the passport:
https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/policies/schengen-borders-and-visa/document-security_en

Only the UK and Ireland were exempt, and now only the latter (but for how long, now the UK has gone?).

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>wrote:
>>When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
>>a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>>that.
>
>I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>time).

Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone. Though I've got
more faith in the french managing it than the uk border force. On either side
of the channel the uk border force seems to take 5 times longer to do a
passport than the french.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:55:52 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 16/04/2023 16:48, Recliner wrote:
>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 14:54:12 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
>>>>>> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
>>>>>> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
>>>>>> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
>>>>>> would have had to be cut, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
>>>>> border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
>>>>> would go straight through.
>>>>
>>>> My guess is that the number of non-EU/UK pax on VSOE is much higher than
>>>> 5%. When I went on Rovos Rail, most of the pax were Americans.
>>>
>>> I meant 95% of pax at the border. Hence the border was designed to handle
>>> NNN non-EU per hour and would have processed the NN VSOE pax swiftly.
>>>
>>> Now there are NNNN non-EU per hour but the border facilities have not been
>>> upsized tenfold.
>>>
>>>>> The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU passports' window which would
>>>>> take a bit longer, but similar queues at airports have existed for a long
>>>>> time. However, now >50% of travellers need to use it, the system is
>>>>> overwhelmed.
>>>>
>>>> How will Irish passport holders be handled at the Schengen border under
>>>> the new system? As EU passport-holders, they have the right to cross the
>>>> border without any need for an ETIAS, but won't they still need to have
>>>> their fingerprints taken and go through the ePassport gates? In fact,
>>>> once ETIAS-holding Brits have had the their images and prints taken the
>>>> first time, will it take any longer for them to cross the border than EU
>>>> citizens?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens?
>>
>> I believe they already are fingerprinted, with the prints part of the passport biometric ID.
>>
>>> They are merely EU
>>> citizens re-entering the EU. They would presumably need an authenticity
>>> check (valid ID card, photo matches human) but no interview/passport
>>> stamping/visa checking.
>>
>> As will be the case with UK citizens too, after their first ETIAS visit.
>>
>>>
>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
>>> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>>> that.
>>
>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>> time).
>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the
>>>> most tedious such border crossings I did was at the internal border in
>>>> northern Chile.
>>>
>>> Where they are actually looking for rebels/smugglers/terrorists is more
>>> fun...
>>
>> Yes, normally coaches full of British tourists get little scrutiny at Balkan borders.
>>
>>>
>>>>> If you need to do the terminal desk thing with fingerprints etc, I'm not
>>>>> sure how that works with car drivers since they can't really park the car at
>>>>> the 'landside' of the border, go through control and then collect it
>>>>> 'airside'.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the machines will be immediately adjacent to the car lane?
>>>
>>> Perhaps, although the throughput must be quite limited that way.
>>
>> Yes, certainly less than before.
>>
>>>
>>>>> VSOE could operate the service using the ferry as foot passengers: deliver
>>>>> pax by coach to the terminal in good time, let them do the border thing and
>>>>> board the ferry by themselves. Meanwhile send over a van with the luggage.
>>>>> At the other end a French coach collects them to go to Calais station. But
>>>>> that doesn't work if the sailings are messed up with other border delays.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe mixing with ordinary pax on a humble ordinary ferry is not deemed to
>>>> be special enough for VSOE passengers? They would expect to be
>>>> entertained in a grand, 1920s art deco private lounge.
>>>
>>> They used to run to Folkestone Harbour. Pity it was closed, otherwise they
>>> could have run their own paddle steamer...
>>
>> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
>> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer, like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/49445770027/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
>It appears I don’t have permission to view this photo or video.

Ah, sorry about that. This should work:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52822245438/in/photostream/lightbox/

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
>>> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>>> that.
>>
>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>> time).
>
> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone. Though I've got
> more faith in the french managing it than the uk border force. On either side
> of the channel the uk border force seems to take 5 times longer to do a
> passport than the french.
>
>

Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK officialdom.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> >I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens?
>
> I believe they already are fingerprinted, with the prints part of the passport biometric ID.

I'm not aware of that being universal - surely it'll vary from one nation to
another?

> >When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
> >a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
> >that.
>
> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first time).

It may help, although it depends whether they trust what's written on the
ETIAS (US CBP evidently don't with the ESTA). Or will the gates reject
people for a human check?

> >
> >> Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the
> >> most tedious such border crossings I did was at the internal border in
> >> northern Chile.
> >
> >Where they are actually looking for rebels/smugglers/terrorists is more
> >fun...
>
> Yes, normally coaches full of British tourists get little scrutiny at
> Balkan borders.

Perish the thought! My fellow travellers were mostly Bosniaks and Kosovars.
I'm not sure the Kosovo border post (about the size of a UK filling station)
had seen a British passport before...

> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer, like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52822245438/in/photostream/lightbox/

That would do nicely (although perhaps not quite seaworthy enough...)

Sadly Calais Maritime is no longer rail connected, unlike the old days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBQfy5_NR-E

On that note, I discover SNCF had a film unit much like BR, with some
excellent films:

A British loco drivers busman's holiday to Paris (1947)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsd6wc0Vtmw

The Simplon-Orient Express (1956)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78peEdulA00

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens?
>>
>> I believe they already are fingerprinted, with the prints part of the
>> passport biometric ID.
>
> I'm not aware of that being universal - surely it'll vary from one nation to
> another?

Only Ireland (and previously the UK) do not. It was one of our numerous EU
exemptions.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u1epc6$24jrg$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:18 on Sat, 15 Apr
> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>> https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2023/apr/15/brexit-orient-express-mur
>> der-london-folkestone-leg-route-border-delays
>
> A particularly poignant article because the Brexiteers' argument has
> always been "We managed to cross the Channel before we joined the EU
> (they really mean "EEC") and so what's the problem".

I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
would have had to be cut, anyway.

On 16 Apr 2023 14:54:12 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
>> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
>> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
>> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
>> would have had to be cut, anyway.
>
>The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
>border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
>would go straight through.

My guess is that the number of non-EU/UK pax on VSOE is much higher than 5%. When I went on Rovos Rail, most of the pax
were Americans.

> The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU
>passports' window which would take a bit longer, but similar queues at
>airports have existed for a long time. However, now >50% of travellers need
>to use it, the system is overwhelmed.

How will Irish passport holders be handled at the Schengen border under the new system? As EU passport-holders, they
have the right to cross the border without any need for an ETIAS, but won't they still need to have their fingerprints
taken and go through the ePassport gates? In fact, once ETIAS-holding Brits have had the their images and prints taken
the first time, will it take any longer for them to cross the border than EU citizens?

>
>What was the prior position at the ferry and tunnel terminals? I've only
>crossed borders by coach in the Balkans, and there the driver takes your
>passport, hands them over to the border guards, who do whatever checks while
>you're sitting on the coach.

Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the most tedious such border crossings I did was at
the internal border in northern Chile.

> Do the ferries etc have a terminal where you
>walk through an 'EU border' with desks, queues, etc, or is the idea you stay
>on the coach?

I don't know, but it will probably change when ETIAS arrives. I think all passengers will have to go through the
ePassport gates, including EU citizens.

>
>If you need to do the terminal desk thing with fingerprints etc, I'm not
>sure how that works with car drivers since they can't really park the car at
>the 'landside' of the border, go through control and then collect it
>'airside'.

Maybe the machines will be immediately adjacent to the car lane?

>
>VSOE could operate the service using the ferry as foot passengers: deliver
>pax by coach to the terminal in good time, let them do the border thing and
>board the ferry by themselves. Meanwhile send over a van with the luggage.
>At the other end a French coach collects them to go to Calais station. But
>that doesn't work if the sailings are messed up with other border delays.

Maybe mixing with ordinary pax on a humble ordinary ferry is not deemed to be special enough for VSOE passengers? They
would expect to be entertained in a grand, 1920s art deco private lounge.

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
>> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
>> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
>> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
>> would have had to be cut, anyway.
>
> The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
> border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
> would go straight through. The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU
> passports' window which would take a bit longer, but similar queues at
> airports have existed for a long time. However, now >50% of travellers need
> to use it, the system is overwhelmed.
>
> What was the prior position at the ferry and tunnel terminals? I've only
> crossed borders by coach in the Balkans, and there the driver takes your
> passport, hands them over to the border guards, who do whatever checks while
> you're sitting on the coach. Do the ferries etc have a terminal where you
> walk through an 'EU border' with desks, queues, etc, or is the idea you stay
> on the coach?
>
> If you need to do the terminal desk thing with fingerprints etc, I'm not
> sure how that works with car drivers since they can't really park the car at
> the 'landside' of the border, go through control and then collect it
> 'airside'.
>
> VSOE could operate the service using the ferry as foot passengers: deliver
> pax by coach to the terminal in good time, let them do the border thing and
> board the ferry by themselves. Meanwhile send over a van with the luggage.
> At the other end a French coach collects them to go to Calais station. But
> that doesn't work if the sailings are messed up with other border delays.
>
> Theo
>

Surely VSOE could arrange for their own border clearance given the amount
they charge? In reality I suspect this is an excuse for shutting down a
financially poorly performing UK leg.

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 14:18:16 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
>>> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
>>> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
>>> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
>>> would have had to be cut, anyway.
>>
>> The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
>> border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
>> would go straight through. The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU
>> passports' window which would take a bit longer, but similar queues at
>> airports have existed for a long time. However, now >50% of travellers need
>> to use it, the system is overwhelmed.
>>
>> What was the prior position at the ferry and tunnel terminals? I've only
>> crossed borders by coach in the Balkans, and there the driver takes your
>> passport, hands them over to the border guards, who do whatever checks while
>> you're sitting on the coach. Do the ferries etc have a terminal where you
>> walk through an 'EU border' with desks, queues, etc, or is the idea you stay
>> on the coach?
>>
>> If you need to do the terminal desk thing with fingerprints etc, I'm not
>> sure how that works with car drivers since they can't really park the car at
>> the 'landside' of the border, go through control and then collect it
>> 'airside'.
>>
>> VSOE could operate the service using the ferry as foot passengers: deliver
>> pax by coach to the terminal in good time, let them do the border thing and
>> board the ferry by themselves. Meanwhile send over a van with the luggage.
>> At the other end a French coach collects them to go to Calais station. But
>> that doesn't work if the sailings are messed up with other border delays.
>>
>> Theo
>>
>
>Surely VSOE could arrange for their own border clearance given the amount
>they charge? In reality I suspect this is an excuse for shutting down a
>financially poorly performing UK leg.

I suspect that's correct. The extra that could be charged for the UK extension probably didn't cover the costs.

It's probably more profitable to sell luxury day trips on the UK Pullman train.

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
>> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
>> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
>> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
>> would have had to be cut, anyway.
>
> The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
> border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
> would go straight through. The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU
> passports' window which would take a bit longer, but similar queues at
> airports have existed for a long time. However, now >50% of travellers need
> to use it, the system is overwhelmed.
>
> What was the prior position at the ferry and tunnel terminals? I've only
> crossed borders by coach in the Balkans, and there the driver takes your
> passport, hands them over to the border guards, who do whatever checks while
> you're sitting on the coach. Do the ferries etc have a terminal where you
> walk through an 'EU border' with desks, queues, etc, or is the idea you stay
> on the coach?

In 2003 I crossed IT-SI-HR borders and return by coach and that was pretty
much the procedure, except that while the driver was away a couple of
youngish folk, M and F, with big guns on their hips came and wandered
around the coach looking at people.

In 2018 I crosed SI-HR by bike - SI had joined Schengen so there was no
longer a border with Italy - and that involved waving a burgundy passport
at the border staff and off we went. The return trip was by coach and the
drivers had expected that they would just be waved through but for some
reason we all had to get off, claim our luggage, and walk through the
border building, again waving our passports. It was pretty quick and
perfunctory. Since then, of course, HR has also joined Schengen so there
won’t be the same procedures again.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
><theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared
>with
>>>> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>>>> that.
>>>
>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>> time).
>>
>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone. Though I've got
>
>> more faith in the french managing it than the uk border force. On either side
>
>> of the channel the uk border force seems to take 5 times longer to do a
>> passport than the french.
>>
>>
>
>Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK officialdom.

And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are going to
try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If they're in the
vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more likely a dingy somewhere along
the dozens of miles of virtually deserted coastline.

On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared
>> with
>>>>> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>> time).
>>>
>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone. Though I've got
>>
>>> more faith in the french managing it than the uk border force. On either side
>>
>>> of the channel the uk border force seems to take 5 times longer to do a
>>> passport than the french.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK officialdom.
>
> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are going to
> try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If they're in the
> vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more likely a dingy somewhere along
> the dozens of miles of virtually deserted coastline.
>

Very true!

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared
>>> with
>>>>>> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>> time).
>>>>
>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone. Though I've got
>>>
>>>> more faith in the french managing it than the uk border force. On either side
>>>
>>>> of the channel the uk border force seems to take 5 times longer to do a
>>>> passport than the french.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK officialdom.
>>
>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are going to
>> try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If they're in the
>> vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more likely a dingy somewhere along
>> the dozens of miles of virtually deserted coastline.
>>
>
> Very true!
>
>

Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate the
impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d have to
have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and that’s
clearly not going to happen.

On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16 Apr 2023 14:54:12 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
>> >> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
>> >> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
>> >> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
>> >> would have had to be cut, anyway.
>> >
>> >The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
>> >border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
>> >would go straight through.
>>
>> My guess is that the number of non-EU/UK pax on VSOE is much higher than
>> 5%. When I went on Rovos Rail, most of the pax were Americans.
>
>I meant 95% of pax at the border. Hence the border was designed to handle
>NNN non-EU per hour and would have processed the NN VSOE pax swiftly.
>
>Now there are NNNN non-EU per hour but the border facilities have not been
>upsized tenfold.
>
>> > The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU passports' window which would
>> >take a bit longer, but similar queues at airports have existed for a long
>> >time. However, now >50% of travellers need to use it, the system is
>> >overwhelmed.
>>
>> How will Irish passport holders be handled at the Schengen border under
>> the new system? As EU passport-holders, they have the right to cross the
>> border without any need for an ETIAS, but won't they still need to have
>> their fingerprints taken and go through the ePassport gates? In fact,
>> once ETIAS-holding Brits have had the their images and prints taken the
>> first time, will it take any longer for them to cross the border than EU
>> citizens?
>
>I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens?

I believe they already are fingerprinted, with the prints part of the passport biometric ID.

> They are merely EU
>citizens re-entering the EU. They would presumably need an authenticity
>check (valid ID card, photo matches human) but no interview/passport
>stamping/visa checking.

As will be the case with UK citizens too, after their first ETIAS visit.

>
>When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
>a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>that.

I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
time).

>
>> Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the
>> most tedious such border crossings I did was at the internal border in
>> northern Chile.
>
>Where they are actually looking for rebels/smugglers/terrorists is more
>fun...

Yes, normally coaches full of British tourists get little scrutiny at Balkan borders.

>
>> >If you need to do the terminal desk thing with fingerprints etc, I'm not
>> >sure how that works with car drivers since they can't really park the car at
>> >the 'landside' of the border, go through control and then collect it
>> >'airside'.
>>
>> Maybe the machines will be immediately adjacent to the car lane?
>
>Perhaps, although the throughput must be quite limited that way.

Yes, certainly less than before.

>
>> >VSOE could operate the service using the ferry as foot passengers: deliver
>> >pax by coach to the terminal in good time, let them do the border thing and
>> >board the ferry by themselves. Meanwhile send over a van with the luggage.
>> >At the other end a French coach collects them to go to Calais station. But
>> >that doesn't work if the sailings are messed up with other border delays.
>>
>> Maybe mixing with ordinary pax on a humble ordinary ferry is not deemed to
>> be special enough for VSOE passengers? They would expect to be
>> entertained in a grand, 1920s art deco private lounge.
>
>They used to run to Folkestone Harbour. Pity it was closed, otherwise they
>could have run their own paddle steamer...

I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer, like this modern vessel I travelled on:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/49445770027/in/photostream/lightbox/

On 16/04/2023 15:48, Theo wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16 Apr 2023 14:54:12 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
>>>> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
>>>> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
>>>> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
>>>> would have had to be cut, anyway.
>>>
>>> The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
>>> border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
>>> would go straight through.
>>
>> My guess is that the number of non-EU/UK pax on VSOE is much higher than
>> 5%. When I went on Rovos Rail, most of the pax were Americans.
>
> I meant 95% of pax at the border. Hence the border was designed to handle
> NNN non-EU per hour and would have processed the NN VSOE pax swiftly.
>
> Now there are NNNN non-EU per hour but the border facilities have not been
> upsized tenfold.
>
>>> The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU passports' window which would
>>> take a bit longer, but similar queues at airports have existed for a long
>>> time. However, now >50% of travellers need to use it, the system is
>>> overwhelmed.
>>
>> How will Irish passport holders be handled at the Schengen border under
>> the new system? As EU passport-holders, they have the right to cross the
>> border without any need for an ETIAS, but won't they still need to have
>> their fingerprints taken and go through the ePassport gates? In fact,
>> once ETIAS-holding Brits have had the their images and prints taken the
>> first time, will it take any longer for them to cross the border than EU
>> citizens?
>
> I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens? They are merely EU
> citizens re-entering the EU. They would presumably need an authenticity
> check (valid ID card, photo matches human) but no interview/passport
> stamping/visa checking.
>
> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
> that.
>
>> Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the
>> most tedious such border crossings I did was at the internal border in
>> northern Chile.
>
> Where they are actually looking for rebels/smugglers/terrorists is more
> fun...
>
>>> If you need to do the terminal desk thing with fingerprints etc, I'm not
>>> sure how that works with car drivers since they can't really park the car at
>>> the 'landside' of the border, go through control and then collect it
>>> 'airside'.
>>
>> Maybe the machines will be immediately adjacent to the car lane?
>
> Perhaps, although the throughput must be quite limited that way.
>
>>> VSOE could operate the service using the ferry as foot passengers: deliver
>>> pax by coach to the terminal in good time, let them do the border thing and
>>> board the ferry by themselves. Meanwhile send over a van with the luggage.
>>> At the other end a French coach collects them to go to Calais station. But
>>> that doesn't work if the sailings are messed up with other border delays.
>>
>> Maybe mixing with ordinary pax on a humble ordinary ferry is not deemed to
>> be special enough for VSOE passengers? They would expect to be
>> entertained in a grand, 1920s art deco private lounge.
>
> They used to run to Folkestone Harbour. Pity it was closed, otherwise they
> could have run their own paddle steamer...
>

Now that would be a trip worth doing!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 16/04/2023 16:48, Recliner wrote:
> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 16 Apr 2023 14:54:12 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I wonder what proportion of the VSOE passengers from London are not EU/UK?
>>>>> For example, I think quite a few Americans, and some Aussies, enjoy the
>>>>> experience. They'd have to go through the new procedures even if we'd
>>>>> remained in the EU. So, it could be that the British Pullman feeder service
>>>>> would have had to be cut, anyway.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is not the procedures, it's the potential day-long queue at
>>>> border control. If we were in the EU, 95% (made up number) of passengers
>>>> would go straight through.
>>>
>>> My guess is that the number of non-EU/UK pax on VSOE is much higher than
>>> 5%. When I went on Rovos Rail, most of the pax were Americans.
>>
>> I meant 95% of pax at the border. Hence the border was designed to handle
>> NNN non-EU per hour and would have processed the NN VSOE pax swiftly.
>>
>> Now there are NNNN non-EU per hour but the border facilities have not been
>> upsized tenfold.
>>
>>>> The 5% would have to queue at the 'non-EU passports' window which would
>>>> take a bit longer, but similar queues at airports have existed for a long
>>>> time. However, now >50% of travellers need to use it, the system is
>>>> overwhelmed.
>>>
>>> How will Irish passport holders be handled at the Schengen border under
>>> the new system? As EU passport-holders, they have the right to cross the
>>> border without any need for an ETIAS, but won't they still need to have
>>> their fingerprints taken and go through the ePassport gates? In fact,
>>> once ETIAS-holding Brits have had the their images and prints taken the
>>> first time, will it take any longer for them to cross the border than EU
>>> citizens?
>>
>> I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens?
>
> I believe they already are fingerprinted, with the prints part of the passport biometric ID.
>
>> They are merely EU
>> citizens re-entering the EU. They would presumably need an authenticity
>> check (valid ID card, photo matches human) but no interview/passport
>> stamping/visa checking.
>
> As will be the case with UK citizens too, after their first ETIAS visit.
>
>>
>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
>> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>> that.
>
> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
> time).
>
>>
>>> Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the
>>> most tedious such border crossings I did was at the internal border in
>>> northern Chile.
>>
>> Where they are actually looking for rebels/smugglers/terrorists is more
>> fun...
>
> Yes, normally coaches full of British tourists get little scrutiny at Balkan borders.
>
>>
>>>> If you need to do the terminal desk thing with fingerprints etc, I'm not
>>>> sure how that works with car drivers since they can't really park the car at
>>>> the 'landside' of the border, go through control and then collect it
>>>> 'airside'.
>>>
>>> Maybe the machines will be immediately adjacent to the car lane?
>>
>> Perhaps, although the throughput must be quite limited that way.
>
> Yes, certainly less than before.
>
>>
>>>> VSOE could operate the service using the ferry as foot passengers: deliver
>>>> pax by coach to the terminal in good time, let them do the border thing and
>>>> board the ferry by themselves. Meanwhile send over a van with the luggage.
>>>> At the other end a French coach collects them to go to Calais station. But
>>>> that doesn't work if the sailings are messed up with other border delays.
>>>
>>> Maybe mixing with ordinary pax on a humble ordinary ferry is not deemed to
>>> be special enough for VSOE passengers? They would expect to be
>>> entertained in a grand, 1920s art deco private lounge.
>>
>> They used to run to Folkestone Harbour. Pity it was closed, otherwise they
>> could have run their own paddle steamer...
>
> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer, like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/49445770027/in/photostream/lightbox/

It appears I don’t have permission to view this photo or video.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:18:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared
>>>> with
>>>>>>> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>>>>>>> that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>>> time).
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone. Though I've got
>>>>
>>>>> more faith in the french managing it than the uk border force. On either side
>>>>
>>>>> of the channel the uk border force seems to take 5 times longer to do a
>>>>> passport than the french.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK officialdom.
>>>
>>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are going to
>>> try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If they're in the
>>> vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more likely a dingy somewhere along
>>> the dozens of miles of virtually deserted coastline.
>>>
>>
>> Very true!
>>
>>
>
>Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate the
>impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d have to
>have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and that’s
>clearly not going to happen.

The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
That's clearly not the current position.

On 18/04/2023 14:11, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <rr1t3idv3j10chq0hlr17jra3beoe9v6m3@4ax.com>, at 13:06:50 on
> Tue, 18 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:18:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer
>>>>>>>>> compared  with  a US citizen.  'Sir, what is your business in
>>>>>>>>> the United States?' and all  that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go
>>>>>>>> through the
>>>>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>>>>> time).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone.
>>>>>>> Though I've got    more faith in the french managing it than the
>>>>>>> uk border force. On either side    of the channel the uk border
>>>>>>> force seems to take 5 times longer to do a  passport than the
>>>>>>> french.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK
>>>>>> officialdom.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are
>>>>> going to  try and enter the country via car with a fake passport.
>>>>> If they're in the  vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more
>>>>> likely a dingy somewhere along  the dozens of miles of virtually
>>>>> deserted coastline.
>>>>
>>>> Very true!
>>>
>>> Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate
>>> the
>>> impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d
>>> have to
>>> have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and
>>> that’s
>>> clearly not going to happen.
>>
>> The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the
>> traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
>> So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the
>> chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
>> That's clearly not the current position.
>
> And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
> that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
> economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
> desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
> live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.
>
> If they have close family in the UK that they wish to join, then there
> ought to be provided a better way for them to make that case to the Home
> Office before arriving on the beaches. Just like there is for legal
> migrants between other pairs of countries worldwide.
>
> I have a friend who recently emigrated to the USA to join their family
> who had emigrated there maybe twenty years ago. It took about two years
> and lots of money, to get that all properly arranged.

All good arguments Roland, thanks.

--
Colin

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 14:11:25 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <rr1t3idv3j10chq0hlr17jra3beoe9v6m3@4ax.com>, at 13:06:50 on
>Tue, 18 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:18:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer
>>>>>>>>>compared with a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in
>>>>>>>>>the United States?' and all that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>>>>> time).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone.
>>>>>>>Though I've got more faith in the french managing it than the
>>>>>>>uk border force. On either side of the channel the uk border
>>>>>>>force seems to take 5 times longer to do a passport than the french.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>>>>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK
>>>>>>officialdom.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are
>>>>>going to try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If
>>>>>they're in the vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more
>>>>>likely a dingy somewhere along the dozens of miles of virtually
>>>>>deserted coastline.
>>>>
>>>> Very true!
>>>
>>>Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate the
>>>impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d have to
>>>have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and that’s
>>>clearly not going to happen.
>>
>>The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the
>>traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
>>So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the
>>chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
>>That's clearly not the current position.
>
>And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
>that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
>economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
>desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
>live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.

I think the government is trying to make that case, but perhaps not very well. It does point out that the vast majority
of the boat people are fit young men who have paid thousands to the traffickers, not penniless women and children.

>
>If they have close family in the UK that they wish to join, then there
>ought to be provided a better way for them to make that case to the Home
>Office before arriving on the beaches. Just like there is for legal
>migrants between other pairs of countries worldwide.

Yes, they do need to provide better legal ways of allowing in a limited number of genuine refugees (beyond the thousands
from Ukraine, Hong Kong, Afghanistan, etc). The fear is that the number of completely genuine potential refugees (even
those with family settled here) far exceeds our capacity to accommodate them.

>
>I have a friend who recently emigrated to the USA to join their family
>who had emigrated there maybe twenty years ago. It took about two years
>and lots of money, to get that all properly arranged.

Yes, I'm not surprised. The Americans are certainly much less welcoming to immigrants than they once were. But even
getting a Green card isn't easy (which is why Sunak hung on to his for years after returning to the UK).

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 14:11:25 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <rr1t3idv3j10chq0hlr17jra3beoe9v6m3@4ax.com>, at 13:06:50 on
>>The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the
>>traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
>>So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the
>>chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
>>That's clearly not the current position.
>
>And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
>that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
>economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
>desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
>live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.

ITYF the public are quite well aware of that. Its the liberal lefty pressure
groups and out-for-a-buck lawyers who try and pretend they're fleeing
persecution in Calais.