In message <rr1t3idv3j10chq0hlr17jra3beoe9v6m3@4ax.com>, at 13:06:50 on
Tue, 18 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:18:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer
>>>>>>>>compared with a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in
>>>>>>>>the United States?' and all that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>>>> time).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone.
>>>>>>Though I've got more faith in the french managing it than the
>>>>>>uk border force. On either side of the channel the uk border
>>>>>>force seems to take 5 times longer to do a passport than the french.
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>>>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK
>>>>>officialdom.
>>>>
>>>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are
>>>>going to try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If
>>>>they're in the vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more
>>>>likely a dingy somewhere along the dozens of miles of virtually
>>>>deserted coastline.
>>>
>>> Very true!
>>
>>Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate the
>>impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d have to
>>have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and that’s
>>clearly not going to happen.
>
>The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the
>traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
>So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the
>chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
>That's clearly not the current position.

And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.

If they have close family in the UK that they wish to join, then there
ought to be provided a better way for them to make that case to the Home
Office before arriving on the beaches. Just like there is for legal
migrants between other pairs of countries worldwide.

I have a friend who recently emigrated to the USA to join their family
who had emigrated there maybe twenty years ago. It took about two years
and lots of money, to get that all properly arranged.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <rr1t3idv3j10chq0hlr17jra3beoe9v6m3@4ax.com>, at 13:06:50 on
> Tue, 18 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:18:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer
>>>>>>>>> compared with a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in
>>>>>>>>> the United States?' and all that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>>>>> time).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone.
>>>>>>> Though I've got more faith in the french managing it than the
>>>>>>> uk border force. On either side of the channel the uk border
>>>>>>> force seems to take 5 times longer to do a passport than the french.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>>>>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK
>>>>>> officialdom.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are
>>>>> going to try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If
>>>>> they're in the vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more
>>>>> likely a dingy somewhere along the dozens of miles of virtually
>>>>> deserted coastline.
>>>>
>>>> Very true!
>>>
>>> Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate the
>>> impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d have to
>>> have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and that’s
>>> clearly not going to happen.
>>
>> The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the
>> traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
>> So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the
>> chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
>> That's clearly not the current position.
>
> And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
> that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
> economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
> desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
> live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.
>
I think your assertion that almost all are economic migrants is not correct

https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/latest/news/majority-of-people-on-small-boats-crossing-channel-last-year-are-refugees-new-analysis-shows/

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <rr1t3idv3j10chq0hlr17jra3beoe9v6m3@4ax.com>, at 13:06:50 on
>> Tue, 18 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:18:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer
>>>>>>>>>> compared with a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in
>>>>>>>>>> the United States?' and all that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>>>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>>>>>> time).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone.
>>>>>>>> Though I've got more faith in the french managing it than the
>>>>>>>> uk border force. On either side of the channel the uk border
>>>>>>>> force seems to take 5 times longer to do a passport than the french.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>>>>>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK
>>>>>>> officialdom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are
>>>>>> going to try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If
>>>>>> they're in the vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more
>>>>>> likely a dingy somewhere along the dozens of miles of virtually
>>>>>> deserted coastline.
>>>>>
>>>>> Very true!
>>>>
>>>> Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate the
>>>> impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d have to
>>>> have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and that’s
>>>> clearly not going to happen.
>>>
>>> The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the
>>> traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
>>> So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the
>>> chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
>>> That's clearly not the current position.
>>
>> And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
>> that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
>> economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
>> desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
>> live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.
>>
> I think your assertion that almost all are economic migrants is not correct
>
> https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/latest/news/majority-of-people-on-small-boats-crossing-channel-last-year-are-refugees-new-analysis-shows/
>

I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
Those will be the economic migrants.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <rr1t3idv3j10chq0hlr17jra3beoe9v6m3@4ax.com>, at 13:06:50 on
>>> Tue, 18 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:18:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer
>>>>>>>>>>> compared with a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in
>>>>>>>>>>> the United States?' and all that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>>>>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>>>>>>> time).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone.
>>>>>>>>> Though I've got more faith in the french managing it than the
>>>>>>>>> uk border force. On either side of the channel the uk border
>>>>>>>>> force seems to take 5 times longer to do a passport than the french.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>>>>>>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK
>>>>>>>> officialdom.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are
>>>>>>> going to try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If
>>>>>>> they're in the vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more
>>>>>>> likely a dingy somewhere along the dozens of miles of virtually
>>>>>>> deserted coastline.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Very true!
>>>>>
>>>>> Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate the
>>>>> impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d have to
>>>>> have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and that’s
>>>>> clearly not going to happen.
>>>>
>>>> The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the
>>>> traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
>>>> So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the
>>>> chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
>>>> That's clearly not the current position.
>>>
>>> And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
>>> that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
>>> economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
>>> desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
>>> live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.
>>>
>> I think your assertion that almost all are economic migrants is not correct
>>
>> https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/latest/news/majority-of-people-on-small-boats-crossing-channel-last-year-are-refugees-new-analysis-shows/
>>
>
> I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
> detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
> Those will be the economic migrants.
>
>

Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
those wars inflamed by the west.

On 18.04.23 15:11, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <rr1t3idv3j10chq0hlr17jra3beoe9v6m3@4ax.com>, at 13:06:50 on
> Tue, 18 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:18:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer
>>>>>>>>> compared  with  a US citizen.  'Sir, what is your business in
>>>>>>>>> the United States?' and all  that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go
>>>>>>>> through the
>>>>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>>>>> time).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone.
>>>>>>> Though I've got    more faith in the french managing it than the
>>>>>>> uk border force. On either side    of the channel the uk border
>>>>>>> force seems to take 5 times longer to do a  passport than the
>>>>>>> french.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK
>>>>>> officialdom.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are
>>>>> going to  try and enter the country via car with a fake passport.
>>>>> If they're in the  vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more
>>>>> likely a dingy somewhere along  the dozens of miles of virtually
>>>>> deserted coastline.
>>>>
>>>> Very true!
>>>
>>> Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate
>>> the
>>> impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d
>>> have to
>>> have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and
>>> that’s
>>> clearly not going to happen.
>>
>> The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the
>> traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
>> So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the
>> chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
>> That's clearly not the current position.
>
> And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
> that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
> economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
> desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
> live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.

The problem is none of the countries en-route want them either, and each
country does its best to make life for them difficult, in the hope of
deterring them from setting out, but with the side effect that it
encourages those who do arrive to try to move on to the next place.

> If they have close family in the UK that they wish to join, then there
> ought to be provided a better way for them to make that case to the Home
> Office before arriving on the beaches. Just like there is for legal
> migrants between other pairs of countries worldwide.

The problem is in an attempt to reduce migration, both the cost and
difficulty of attempting the legal route of immigration have been set
very high. From the perspective of a prospective migrant, the illegal
route is more likely to succeed and not significantly more expensive
than the legal route, so the motivation to chose the legal rather than
illegal route is low.

> I have a friend who recently emigrated to the USA to join their family
> who had emigrated there maybe twenty years ago. It took about two years
> and lots of money, to get that all properly arranged.

Where the price, time and hassle of the legal route is so high, I can
see why people think the illegal one is an attractive alternative.

Robin

On 18/04/2023 18:30, Bob wrote:
> The problem is none of the countries en-route want them either, and each
> country does its best to make life for them difficult, in the hope of
> deterring them from setting out, but with the side effect that it
> encourages those who do arrive to try to move on to the next place.

Unlikely now but if Scotland got partition then we could have put them
over Hadrian's Wall similar to the way the French persuade them to come
to the UK.

Though I always thought we should have built an interment camp in
Northern Ireland, close to the border with Southern Ireland.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 18/04/2023 18:30, Bob wrote:
>> The problem is none of the countries en-route want them either, and each
>> country does its best to make life for them difficult, in the hope of
>> deterring them from setting out, but with the side effect that it
>> encourages those who do arrive to try to move on to the next place.
>
>
>
> Unlikely now but if Scotland got partition then we could have put them
> over Hadrian's Wall similar to the way the French persuade them to come
> to the UK.

Scotland will welcome them, to replace its own declining population.

>
> Though I always thought we should have built an interment camp in
> Northern Ireland, close to the border with Southern Ireland.

They are not interned. And Northern Ireland is nowhere near southern
Ireland.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 16:27:55 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
>> that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
>> economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
>> desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
>> live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.
>>
>I think your assertion that almost all are economic migrants is not correct
>
>https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/latest/news/majority-of-people-on-small-boats
>-crossing-channel-last-year-are-refugees-new-analysis-shows/

Says a highly partisan organisation with an axe to grind based on asking them
"Are you a refugee?".

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:07:50 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
>> detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
>> Those will be the economic migrants.
>>
>>
>
>Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
>being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
>those wars inflamed by the west.

France isn't a war torn country, they could claim asylum there. Or Italy or
Greece or the probably half dozen other EU countries they came through first.
People truly fleeing from terror stop in the first safe country unless
invited elsewhere , eg most ukrainian refugees are in poland.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:07:50 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <rr1t3idv3j10chq0hlr17jra3beoe9v6m3@4ax.com>, at 13:06:50 on
>>>> Tue, 18 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 16:18:11 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17/04/2023 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:51:54 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 16 Apr 2023 16:48:43 +0100
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo
>>>>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer
>>>>>>>>>>>> compared with a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the United States?' and all that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>>>>>>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first
>>>>>>>>>>> time).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Good luck to them organising all that at Dover and Folkstone.
>>>>>>>>>> Though I've got more faith in the french managing it than the
>>>>>>>>>> uk border force. On either side of the channel the uk border
>>>>>>>>>> force seems to take 5 times longer to do a passport than the french.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Exactly. Before we get all anti French, all the delays I’ve experienced
>>>>>>>>> post Brexit on the Dover Calais route have been down to the UK
>>>>>>>>> officialdom.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And the irony is its virtually pointless anyway. Few illegals are
>>>>>>>> going to try and enter the country via car with a fake passport. If
>>>>>>>> they're in the vehicle at all they'll be in the boot but more
>>>>>>>> likely a dingy somewhere along the dozens of miles of virtually
>>>>>>>> deserted coastline.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very true!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Driving along the Pas de Calais roads by the coast you can appreciate the
>>>>>> impossibility of the task of preventing small boat crossings. You’d have to
>>>>>> have something along the lines of the old Inner German border, and that’s
>>>>>> clearly not going to happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> The strategy seems to be to try to break the business models for the
>>>>> traffickers, rather than stopping individual boats.
>>>>> So the message has to get back to their would-be clients that the
>>>>> chances of escaping into the UK are well under 50%.
>>>>> That's clearly not the current position.
>>>>
>>>> And the government is doing a very poor job explaining to public opinion
>>>> that (as I think is probably the case) almost all those people are
>>>> economic migrants, rather than refugees. In the sense that even if they
>>>> desperately wanted to leave their own country, they could just as well
>>>> live safely in France or somewhere else en-route.
>>>>
>>> I think your assertion that almost all are economic migrants is not correct
>>>
>>> https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/latest/news/majority-of-people-on-small-boats-crossing-channel-last-year-are-refugees-new-analysis-shows/
>>>
>>
>> I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
>> detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
>> Those will be the economic migrants.
>>
>>
>
>Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
>being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
>those wars inflamed by the west.

Yes, but I think the argument isn't that they're not refugees, but that they aren't under threat in France. They have
already got a long way away from their war-torn country, and have passed through several safe countries before getting
to the French beach. Also, those boat rides across the Channel aren't provided free by a charity — the traffickers
charge the passengers about £2000-£3000 each. So they aren't penniless refugees.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/24/kingpins-in-channel-smuggling-operations-living-freely-in-the-uk-say-migrants

On 19 Apr 2023 at 11:19:45 AM EEST, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:07:50 -0000 (UTC)
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
>>> detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
>>> Those will be the economic migrants.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
>> being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
>> those wars inflamed by the west.
>
> France isn't a war torn country, they could claim asylum there. Or Italy or
> Greece or the probably half dozen other EU countries they came through first.
> People truly fleeing from terror stop in the first safe country unless
> invited elsewhere , eg most ukrainian refugees are in poland.

Most western-Ukrainian refugees are in Poland because they can speak the
language. A great many east-Ukrainian refugees are elsewhere, because they
can't.

"Being able to speak the language" is indeed a significant pull factor for the
UK.

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 14:12:22 -0000 (UTC)
Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 19 Apr 2023 at 11:19:45 AM EEST, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:07:50 -0000 (UTC)
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
>>>> detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
>>>> Those will be the economic migrants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
>>> being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
>>> those wars inflamed by the west.
>>
>> France isn't a war torn country, they could claim asylum there. Or Italy or
>> Greece or the probably half dozen other EU countries they came through first.
>
>> People truly fleeing from terror stop in the first safe country unless
>> invited elsewhere , eg most ukrainian refugees are in poland.
>
>Most western-Ukrainian refugees are in Poland because they can speak the
>language. A great many east-Ukrainian refugees are elsewhere, because they
>can't.

I don't know about the mutual intelligability of polish vs ukrainian but I'd
have thought being closer to home was a lot more important. After all, the
eastern ones arn't going to be able to speak any other language either unless
they learn it at school.

>"Being able to speak the language" is indeed a significant pull factor for the
>UK.

Given most new low skilled immigrants tend to huddle in their ghettos barely
speaking to the locals or taking any part in the local culture I doubt it
matters much at all frankly.

Of course it works both ways as we export our chavs to southern spain who live
their for years without bothering their lazy arses to learn spanish.

On 19/04/2023 17:09, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 14:12:22 -0000 (UTC)
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 19 Apr 2023 at 11:19:45 AM EEST, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:07:50 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
>>>>> detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
>>>>> Those will be the economic migrants.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
>>>> being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
>>>> those wars inflamed by the west.
>>>
>>> France isn't a war torn country, they could claim asylum there. Or Italy or
>>> Greece or the probably half dozen other EU countries they came through first.
>>
>>> People truly fleeing from terror stop in the first safe country unless
>>> invited elsewhere , eg most ukrainian refugees are in poland.
>>
>> Most western-Ukrainian refugees are in Poland because they can speak the
>> language. A great many east-Ukrainian refugees are elsewhere, because they
>> can't.
>
> I don't know about the mutual intelligability of polish vs ukrainian but I'd
> have thought being closer to home was a lot more important. After all, the
> eastern ones arn't going to be able to speak any other language either unless
> they learn it at school.

On of the problems is the other language many of them speak is Russian
which, for some reason, doesn't seem to be popular in Poland.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 23:11:27 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 18/04/2023 18:30, Bob wrote:
>> The problem is none of the countries en-route want them either, and each
>> country does its best to make life for them difficult, in the hope of
>> deterring them from setting out, but with the side effect that it
>> encourages those who do arrive to try to move on to the next place.
>
>
>
>Unlikely now but if Scotland got partition then we could have put them
>over Hadrian's Wall
>
That would mostly put them into Northern England.

>similar to the way the French persuade them to come
>to the UK.
>
>Though I always thought we should have built an interment camp in
>Northern Ireland, close to the border with Southern Ireland.

In message <u1p3no$3tal$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:09:28 on Wed, 19 Apr
2023, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:

>>Most western-Ukrainian refugees are in Poland because they can speak the
>>language. A great many east-Ukrainian refugees are elsewhere, because they
>>can't.
>
>I don't know about the mutual intelligability of polish vs ukrainian but I'd
>have thought being closer to home was a lot more important. After all, the
>eastern ones arn't going to be able to speak any other language either unless
>they learn it at school.

They learn "Eglish" by watching America TV programmes. Or more recently
because English is the main language on the Internet.
--
Roland Perry

On 18/04/2023 18:07, Tweed wrote:
> Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
> being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
> those wars inflamed by the west.

What war is happening in Albania?

On 18/04/2023 17:27, Tweed wrote:
> I think your assertion that almost all are economic migrants is not correct
>
> https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/latest/news/majority-of-people-on-small-boats-crossing-channel-last-year-are-refugees-new-analysis-shows/
>

How neutral is that organisation, always seems very political to me?

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 23:11:27 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> On 18/04/2023 18:30, Bob wrote:
>>> The problem is none of the countries en-route want them either, and each
>>> country does its best to make life for them difficult, in the hope of
>>> deterring them from setting out, but with the side effect that it
>>> encourages those who do arrive to try to move on to the next place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Unlikely now but if Scotland got partition then we could have put them
>> over Hadrian's Wall
>>
> That would mostly put them into Northern England.

Unless Northumbria secedes, of course.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 19 Apr 2023 at 10:09:23 PM EEST, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

> On 19/04/2023 17:09, <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 14:12:22 -0000 (UTC)
>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 19 Apr 2023 at 11:19:45 AM EEST, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:07:50 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
>>>>>> detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
>>>>>> Those will be the economic migrants.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
>>>>> being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
>>>>> those wars inflamed by the west.
>>>>
>>>> France isn't a war torn country, they could claim asylum there. Or Italy or
>>>> Greece or the probably half dozen other EU countries they came through first.
>>>
>>>> People truly fleeing from terror stop in the first safe country unless
>>>> invited elsewhere , eg most ukrainian refugees are in poland.
>>>
>>> Most western-Ukrainian refugees are in Poland because they can speak the
>>> language. A great many east-Ukrainian refugees are elsewhere, because they
>>> can't.
>>
>> I don't know about the mutual intelligability of polish vs ukrainian but I'd
>> have thought being closer to home was a lot more important. After all, the
>> eastern ones arn't going to be able to speak any other language either unless
>> they learn it at school.
>
> On of the problems is the other language many of them speak is Russian
> which, for some reason, doesn't seem to be popular in Poland.

Indeed. I recently visited some of my friends from Kharkiv (Russian speakers,
of course - although they started learning Ukrainian after 2014 they are far
from fluent) who are currently in Budapest; I expressed some surprise as to
why Hungary of all places, and they explained that Poland was in fact quite
unwelcoming to native Russian speakers.

(They also noted that Budapesters had been very welcoming - Budapest being, on
the whole, an oasis of anti-Orban and pro-Ukraine sentiment within Hungary.)

I also learned on that visit that the office I used to work in in Kharkiv had
been remodelled early in the war by an Iskander, which was somewhat
sobering...

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:58:00 -0000 (UTC), Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:

>On 19 Apr 2023 at 10:09:23 PM EEST, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>> On 19/04/2023 17:09, <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 14:12:22 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 19 Apr 2023 at 11:19:45 AM EEST, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:07:50 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
>>>>>>> detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
>>>>>>> Those will be the economic migrants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
>>>>>> being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
>>>>>> those wars inflamed by the west.
>>>>>
>>>>> France isn't a war torn country, they could claim asylum there. Or Italy or
>>>>> Greece or the probably half dozen other EU countries they came through first.
>>>>
>>>>> People truly fleeing from terror stop in the first safe country unless
>>>>> invited elsewhere , eg most ukrainian refugees are in poland.
>>>>
>>>> Most western-Ukrainian refugees are in Poland because they can speak the
>>>> language. A great many east-Ukrainian refugees are elsewhere, because they
>>>> can't.
>>>
>>> I don't know about the mutual intelligability of polish vs ukrainian but I'd
>>> have thought being closer to home was a lot more important. After all, the
>>> eastern ones arn't going to be able to speak any other language either unless
>>> they learn it at school.
>>
>> On of the problems is the other language many of them speak is Russian
>> which, for some reason, doesn't seem to be popular in Poland.
>
>Indeed. I recently visited some of my friends from Kharkiv (Russian speakers,
>of course - although they started learning Ukrainian after 2014 they are far
>from fluent) who are currently in Budapest; I expressed some surprise as to
>why Hungary of all places, and they explained that Poland was in fact quite
>unwelcoming to native Russian speakers.
>
>(They also noted that Budapesters had been very welcoming - Budapest being, on
>the whole, an oasis of anti-Orban and pro-Ukraine sentiment within Hungary.)

Ah, that's interesting.

>
>
>I also learned on that visit that the office I used to work in in Kharkiv had
>been remodelled early in the war by an Iskander, which was somewhat
>sobering...

Yes, indeed. Obviously a very high value military target to the Russians!

On 20 Apr 2023 at 2:50:44 PM EEST, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:58:00 -0000 (UTC), Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 19 Apr 2023 at 10:09:23 PM EEST, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On of the problems is the other language many of them speak is Russian
>>> which, for some reason, doesn't seem to be popular in Poland.
>>
>> Indeed. I recently visited some of my friends from Kharkiv (Russian speakers,
>> of course - although they started learning Ukrainian after 2014 they are far
>> from fluent) who are currently in Budapest; I expressed some surprise as to
>> why Hungary of all places, and they explained that Poland was in fact quite
>> unwelcoming to native Russian speakers.
>>
>> (They also noted that Budapesters had been very welcoming - Budapest being, on
>> the whole, an oasis of anti-Orban and pro-Ukraine sentiment within Hungary.)
>
> Ah, that's interesting.
>
>>
>>
>> I also learned on that visit that the office I used to work in in Kharkiv had
>> been remodelled early in the war by an Iskander, which was somewhat
>> sobering...
>
> Yes, indeed. Obviously a very high value military target to the Russians!

Unfortunately more a testament to the accuracy of Russian targeting, the
office being about 300m away from the main Kharkiv oblast regional
administration building.

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:20:03 -0000 (UTC), Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:

>On 20 Apr 2023 at 2:50:44 PM EEST, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:58:00 -0000 (UTC), Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 19 Apr 2023 at 10:09:23 PM EEST, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On of the problems is the other language many of them speak is Russian
>>>> which, for some reason, doesn't seem to be popular in Poland.
>>>
>>> Indeed. I recently visited some of my friends from Kharkiv (Russian speakers,
>>> of course - although they started learning Ukrainian after 2014 they are far
>>> from fluent) who are currently in Budapest; I expressed some surprise as to
>>> why Hungary of all places, and they explained that Poland was in fact quite
>>> unwelcoming to native Russian speakers.
>>>
>>> (They also noted that Budapesters had been very welcoming - Budapest being, on
>>> the whole, an oasis of anti-Orban and pro-Ukraine sentiment within Hungary.)
>>
>> Ah, that's interesting.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I also learned on that visit that the office I used to work in in Kharkiv had
>>> been remodelled early in the war by an Iskander, which was somewhat
>>> sobering...
>>
>> Yes, indeed. Obviously a very high value military target to the Russians!
>
>Unfortunately more a testament to the accuracy of Russian targeting, the
>office being about 300m away from the main Kharkiv oblast regional
>administration building.

I thought the Iskanders were supposed to be among the few relatively accurate, guided Russian missiles?

On 20 Apr 2023 at 3:59:58 PM EEST, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:20:03 -0000 (UTC), Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 20 Apr 2023 at 2:50:44 PM EEST, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:58:00 -0000 (UTC), Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 19 Apr 2023 at 10:09:23 PM EEST, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On of the problems is the other language many of them speak is Russian
>>>>> which, for some reason, doesn't seem to be popular in Poland.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed. I recently visited some of my friends from Kharkiv (Russian speakers,
>>>> of course - although they started learning Ukrainian after 2014 they are far
>>>> from fluent) who are currently in Budapest; I expressed some surprise as to
>>>> why Hungary of all places, and they explained that Poland was in fact quite
>>>> unwelcoming to native Russian speakers.
>>>>
>>>> (They also noted that Budapesters had been very welcoming - Budapest being, on
>>>> the whole, an oasis of anti-Orban and pro-Ukraine sentiment within Hungary.)
>>>
>>> Ah, that's interesting.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also learned on that visit that the office I used to work in in Kharkiv had
>>>> been remodelled early in the war by an Iskander, which was somewhat
>>>> sobering...
>>>
>>> Yes, indeed. Obviously a very high value military target to the Russians!
>>
>> Unfortunately more a testament to the accuracy of Russian targeting, the
>> office being about 300m away from the main Kharkiv oblast regional
>> administration building.
>
> I thought the Iskanders were supposed to be among the few relatively accurate,
> guided Russian missiles?

Quite possibly it went accurately to the coordinates it was given. If you
think the Russians however are remotely troubled by the accuracy of the
coordinates they enter, though, then you have a deeply misguided impression of
how they conduct war.

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 20 Apr 2023 at 3:59:58 PM EEST, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:20:03 -0000 (UTC), Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20 Apr 2023 at 2:50:44 PM EEST, "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 10:58:00 -0000 (UTC), Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 19 Apr 2023 at 10:09:23 PM EEST, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On of the problems is the other language many of them speak is Russian
>>>>>> which, for some reason, doesn't seem to be popular in Poland.
>>>>>
>>>>> Indeed. I recently visited some of my friends from Kharkiv (Russian speakers,
>>>>> of course - although they started learning Ukrainian after 2014 they are far
>>>>> from fluent) who are currently in Budapest; I expressed some surprise as to
>>>>> why Hungary of all places, and they explained that Poland was in fact quite
>>>>> unwelcoming to native Russian speakers.
>>>>>
>>>>> (They also noted that Budapesters had been very welcoming - Budapest being, on
>>>>> the whole, an oasis of anti-Orban and pro-Ukraine sentiment within Hungary.)
>>>>
>>>> Ah, that's interesting.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I also learned on that visit that the office I used to work in in Kharkiv had
>>>>> been remodelled early in the war by an Iskander, which was somewhat
>>>>> sobering...
>>>>
>>>> Yes, indeed. Obviously a very high value military target to the Russians!
>>>
>>> Unfortunately more a testament to the accuracy of Russian targeting, the
>>> office being about 300m away from the main Kharkiv oblast regional
>>> administration building.
>>
>> I thought the Iskanders were supposed to be among the few relatively accurate,
>> guided Russian missiles?
>
> Quite possibly it went accurately to the coordinates it was given. If you
> think the Russians however are remotely troubled by the accuracy of the
> coordinates they enter, though, then you have a deeply misguided impression of
> how they conduct war.
>

Oh, I'm well aware that they seem to prefer to demolish apartment blocks
and substations than military targets. It's how Czar Putin demonstrates his
great love for Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 19 Apr 2023 at 10:09:23 PM EEST, "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 19/04/2023 17:09, <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 14:12:22 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 19 Apr 2023 at 11:19:45 AM EEST, "<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>"
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:07:50 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I wonder if those stats take any account of the boat people who landed,
>>>>>>> detected or undetected, and simply disappeared into the black economy?
>>>>>>> Those will be the economic migrants.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Probably not. But the “almost all being economic migrants” line is that
>>>>>> being pushed by the right. Lots are coming from war torn countries, many of
>>>>>> those wars inflamed by the west.
>>>>>
>>>>> France isn't a war torn country, they could claim asylum there. Or Italy or
>>>>> Greece or the probably half dozen other EU countries they came through first.
>>>>
>>>>> People truly fleeing from terror stop in the first safe country unless
>>>>> invited elsewhere , eg most ukrainian refugees are in poland.
>>>>
>>>> Most western-Ukrainian refugees are in Poland because they can speak the
>>>> language. A great many east-Ukrainian refugees are elsewhere, because they
>>>> can't.
>>>
>>> I don't know about the mutual intelligability of polish vs ukrainian but I'd
>>> have thought being closer to home was a lot more important. After all, the
>>> eastern ones arn't going to be able to speak any other language either unless
>>> they learn it at school.
>>
>> On of the problems is the other language many of them speak is Russian
>> which, for some reason, doesn't seem to be popular in Poland.
>
> Indeed. I recently visited some of my friends from Kharkiv (Russian speakers,
> of course - although they started learning Ukrainian after 2014 they are far
> from fluent) who are currently in Budapest; I expressed some surprise as to
> why Hungary of all places, and they explained that Poland was in fact quite
> unwelcoming to native Russian speakers.
>
> (They also noted that Budapesters had been very welcoming - Budapest being, on
> the whole, an oasis of anti-Orban and pro-Ukraine sentiment within Hungary.)
>
>

I was in Budapest last week and noticed a number of Ukrainian flags hanging
from balconies etc.

Anna Noyd-Dryver