On 16 Apr 2023 23:36:41 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens?
>>
>> I believe they already are fingerprinted, with the prints part of the passport biometric ID.
>
>I'm not aware of that being universal - surely it'll vary from one nation to
>another?
>
>> >When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
>> >a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>> >that.
>>
>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first time).
>
>It may help, although it depends whether they trust what's written on the
>ETIAS (US CBP evidently don't with the ESTA). Or will the gates reject
>people for a human check?
>
>> >
>> >> Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the
>> >> most tedious such border crossings I did was at the internal border in
>> >> northern Chile.
>> >
>> >Where they are actually looking for rebels/smugglers/terrorists is more
>> >fun...
>>
>> Yes, normally coaches full of British tourists get little scrutiny at
>> Balkan borders.
>
>Perish the thought! My fellow travellers were mostly Bosniaks and Kosovars.
>I'm not sure the Kosovo border post (about the size of a UK filling station)
>had seen a British passport before...
>
>> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
>> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer, like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52822245438/in/photostream/lightbox/
>
>That would do nicely (although perhaps not quite seaworthy enough...)
>

I've uploaded a few more photos from that trip:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720307681289

The ship was built by Chesapeake Shipbuilding in Salisbury, Maryland on the Atlantic coast, so it must have got to the
Mississippi by sailing down that coast, round Florida and across the Gulf to New Orleans, its home port. But I don't
think it could carry passengers on the positioning trip, which was presumably scheduled in calm weather.

Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5'). Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
powered, not steam.

On 21.04.23 15:31, Recliner wrote:
> On 16 Apr 2023 23:36:41 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens?
>>>
>>> I believe they already are fingerprinted, with the prints part of the passport biometric ID.
>>
>> I'm not aware of that being universal - surely it'll vary from one nation to
>> another?
>>
>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
>>>> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>>>> that.
>>>
>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first time).
>>
>> It may help, although it depends whether they trust what's written on the
>> ETIAS (US CBP evidently don't with the ESTA). Or will the gates reject
>> people for a human check?
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the
>>>>> most tedious such border crossings I did was at the internal border in
>>>>> northern Chile.
>>>>
>>>> Where they are actually looking for rebels/smugglers/terrorists is more
>>>> fun...
>>>
>>> Yes, normally coaches full of British tourists get little scrutiny at
>>> Balkan borders.
>>
>> Perish the thought! My fellow travellers were mostly Bosniaks and Kosovars.
>> I'm not sure the Kosovo border post (about the size of a UK filling station)
>> had seen a British passport before...
>>
>>> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
>>> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer, like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>>>
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52822245438/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>
>> That would do nicely (although perhaps not quite seaworthy enough...)
>>
>
> I've uploaded a few more photos from that trip:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720307681289
>
> The ship was built by Chesapeake Shipbuilding in Salisbury, Maryland on the Atlantic coast, so it must have got to the
> Mississippi by sailing down that coast, round Florida and across the Gulf to New Orleans, its home port. But I don't
> think it could carry passengers on the positioning trip, which was presumably scheduled in calm weather.
>
> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5'). Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
> powered, not steam.

It likely made use of the Intracoastal Waterway, a system of sheltered
waters and canals that run the length of the the coast from Massachusets
to Texas, to provide a sheltered passage for less seaworthy vessels.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 21.04.23 15:31, Recliner wrote:
>> On 16 Apr 2023 23:36:41 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 15:48:26 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure the EU plans to fingerprint its citizens?
>>>>
>>>> I believe they already are fingerprinted, with the prints part of the
>>>> passport biometric ID.
>>>
>>> I'm not aware of that being universal - surely it'll vary from one nation to
>>> another?
>>>
>>>>> When entering the US on an ESTA, I think it still takes longer compared with
>>>>> a US citizen. 'Sir, what is your business in the United States?' and all
>>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that will apply with ETIAS. We will just go through the
>>>> ePassport gates like EU citizens (after the first time).
>>>
>>> It may help, although it depends whether they trust what's written on the
>>> ETIAS (US CBP evidently don't with the ESTA). Or will the gates reject
>>> people for a human check?
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, same here. Sometimes it was very quick, sometimes not. One of the
>>>>>> most tedious such border crossings I did was at the internal border in
>>>>>> northern Chile.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where they are actually looking for rebels/smugglers/terrorists is more
>>>>> fun...
>>>>
>>>> Yes, normally coaches full of British tourists get little scrutiny at
>>>> Balkan borders.
>>>
>>> Perish the thought! My fellow travellers were mostly Bosniaks and Kosovars.
>>> I'm not sure the Kosovo border post (about the size of a UK filling station)
>>> had seen a British passport before...
>>>
>>>> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have
>>>> their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
>>>> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer,
>>>> like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52822245438/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>
>>> That would do nicely (although perhaps not quite seaworthy enough...)
>>>
>>
>> I've uploaded a few more photos from that trip:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720307681289
>>
>> The ship was built by Chesapeake Shipbuilding in Salisbury, Maryland on
>> the Atlantic coast, so it must have got to the
>> Mississippi by sailing down that coast, round Florida and across the
>> Gulf to New Orleans, its home port. But I don't
>> think it could carry passengers on the positioning trip, which was
>> presumably scheduled in calm weather.
>>
>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>> powered, not steam.
>
> It likely made use of the Intracoastal Waterway, a system of sheltered
> waters and canals that run the length of the the coast from Massachusets
> to Texas, to provide a sheltered passage for less seaworthy vessels.
>

Yes, that makes sense. I think the same company also operates coastal
cruises, presumably with a different type of vessel.

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 21.04.23 15:31, Recliner wrote:
>> On 16 Apr 2023 23:36:41 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have
>>>> their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
>>>> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer,
>>>> like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52822245438/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>
>>> That would do nicely (although perhaps not quite seaworthy enough...)
>>>
>>
>> I've uploaded a few more photos from that trip:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720307681289
>>
>> The ship was built by Chesapeake Shipbuilding in Salisbury, Maryland on
>> the Atlantic coast, so it must have got to the
>> Mississippi by sailing down that coast, round Florida and across the
>> Gulf to New Orleans, its home port. But I don't
>> think it could carry passengers on the positioning trip, which was
>> presumably scheduled in calm weather.
>>
>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>> powered, not steam.
>

Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
merely being rotated by the passage of the water?

> It likely made use of the Intracoastal Waterway, a system of sheltered
> waters and canals that run the length of the the coast from Massachusets
> to Texas, to provide a sheltered passage for less seaworthy vessels.
>
>

There's an interesting and very humorously-written book by someone who took
a British narrowboat along the Intracoastal Waterway, called "Narrow Dog to
Indian River" (a follow-up to the first book in the series, Narrow Dog to
Carcassonne).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 21.04.23 15:31, Recliner wrote:
>>> On 16 Apr 2023 23:36:41 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have
>>>>> their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
>>>>> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer,
>>>>> like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52822245438/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>
>>>> That would do nicely (although perhaps not quite seaworthy enough...)
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've uploaded a few more photos from that trip:
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720307681289
>>>
>>> The ship was built by Chesapeake Shipbuilding in Salisbury, Maryland on
>>> the Atlantic coast, so it must have got to the
>>> Mississippi by sailing down that coast, round Florida and across the
>>> Gulf to New Orleans, its home port. But I don't
>>> think it could carry passengers on the positioning trip, which was
>>> presumably scheduled in calm weather.
>>>
>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>> powered, not steam.
>>
>
> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?

I think it's entirely passive, despite what Wikipedia says.

I initially expected it to have some sort of mechanical, electrical or
hydraulic drive, and looked hard for a drive shaft, gearbox, chain,
electric motor and power cables, or hydraulic motor and pipes, but could
see no sign of anything, just a simple axle running in bearings. I
subsequently realised that the paddle wheel was too flimsy to transmit any
power.

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52833763267/in/album-72177720307681289/>

[Note the missing wooden planks in the blades, and very slender metal
frame.]

I checked with the crew, who confirmed it. I also looked at the controls
in the thoroughly modern wheelhouse (which, ironically, has no wheel, just
rotating thruster control handles).

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52834513739/in/album-72177720307681289/>

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 21.04.23 15:31, Recliner wrote:
>>> On 16 Apr 2023 23:36:41 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have
>>>>> their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
>>>>> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer,
>>>>> like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52822245438/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>
>>>> That would do nicely (although perhaps not quite seaworthy enough...)
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've uploaded a few more photos from that trip:
>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720307681289
>>>
>>> The ship was built by Chesapeake Shipbuilding in Salisbury, Maryland on
>>> the Atlantic coast, so it must have got to the
>>> Mississippi by sailing down that coast, round Florida and across the
>>> Gulf to New Orleans, its home port. But I don't
>>> think it could carry passengers on the positioning trip, which was
>>> presumably scheduled in calm weather.
>>>
>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>> powered, not steam.
>>
>
> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>
>> It likely made use of the Intracoastal Waterway, a system of sheltered
>> waters and canals that run the length of the the coast from Massachusets
>> to Texas, to provide a sheltered passage for less seaworthy vessels.
>>
>>
>
> There's an interesting and very humorously-written book by someone who took
> a British narrowboat along the Intracoastal Waterway, called "Narrow Dog to
> Indian River" (a follow-up to the first book in the series, Narrow Dog to
> Carcassonne).
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

Thanks, I enjoyed the first one and did not know about the sequel.

Being fortunate enough to have a proper independent bookshop in our nearest
town I’ll get them to obtain a copy.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 21.04.23 15:31, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On 16 Apr 2023 23:36:41 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose, if it was a significantly bigger operation, they could have
>>>>>> their own luxury ferry, to be used as needed from
>>>>>> a minor port. It might even have pretended to be a paddle steamer,
>>>>>> like this modern vessel I travelled on:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52822245438/in/photostream/lightbox/
>>>>>
>>>>> That would do nicely (although perhaps not quite seaworthy enough...)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've uploaded a few more photos from that trip:
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720307681289
>>>>
>>>> The ship was built by Chesapeake Shipbuilding in Salisbury, Maryland on
>>>> the Atlantic coast, so it must have got to the
>>>> Mississippi by sailing down that coast, round Florida and across the
>>>> Gulf to New Orleans, its home port. But I don't
>>>> think it could carry passengers on the positioning trip, which was
>>>> presumably scheduled in calm weather.
>>>>
>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>
>>
>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>>
>>> It likely made use of the Intracoastal Waterway, a system of sheltered
>>> waters and canals that run the length of the the coast from Massachusets
>>> to Texas, to provide a sheltered passage for less seaworthy vessels.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> There's an interesting and very humorously-written book by someone who took
>> a British narrowboat along the Intracoastal Waterway, called "Narrow Dog to
>> Indian River" (a follow-up to the first book in the series, Narrow Dog to
>> Carcassonne).
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>>
>
> Thanks, I enjoyed the first one and did not know about the sequel.
>
> Being fortunate enough to have a proper independent bookshop in our nearest
> town I’ll get them to obtain a copy.
>

I've only recently learned that there's a third book, Narrow Dog to Wigan
Pier, but I haven't read it yet.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>> powered, not steam.
>>
>
>Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>merely being rotated by the passage of the water?

We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
it just looks pastiche naff.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>
>>
>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>
> We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
> which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
> it just looks pastiche naff.
>

Here's another example I recently travelled on:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52723608175/in/album-72177720306437129/>

The ship is genuinely steam-powered, but is propelled by twin screws. The
paddle wheels are purely decorative.

The steam engines:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52722674687/in/album-72177720306437129/>

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>
>>
>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>
> We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
> which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
> it just looks pastiche naff.

There is, or was about 15 years ago, one on the Norfolk Broads called
Southern Comfort. Its paddlewheel was largely shrouded and my photos from
then don’t show any detail except that the wake filled pretty much the full
width of the vessel.

Ah, here it is - very little detail: <https://www.southern-comfort.co.uk>

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>>
>> We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
>> which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
>> it just looks pastiche naff.
>>
>
> Here's another example I recently travelled on:
>
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52723608175/in/album-72177720306437129/>
>
> The ship is genuinely steam-powered, but is propelled by twin screws. The
> paddle wheels are purely decorative.
>
> The steam engines:
>
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52722674687/in/album-72177720306437129/>

I was surprised, though with retrospect I absolutely shouldn’t have been,
when I found that the PS Waverley doesn’t, can’t use her paddles to
manoeuvre. They’re on a single shaft, of course. I was surprised more
understandably when she left the quay at Rothesay backwards, with
apparently good steerage, before setting off forwards to continue her
cruise. I’d guess there are people here who can explain why!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>>
>> We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
>> which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
>> it just looks pastiche naff.
>>
>
> Here's another example I recently travelled on:
>
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52723608175/in/album-72177720306437129/>
>
> The ship is genuinely steam-powered, but is propelled by twin screws. The
> paddle wheels are purely decorative.
>
> The steam engines:
>
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52722674687/in/album-72177720306437129/>
>

Nice photos ,but, gentle cough ,ships and boats have funnels not chimneys.

GH

Currently resting about 20ft away from a couple of triple expansion
engines after a day cleaning the boiler room bilge so it can be inspected
on our annual visit to Cornwall.

<https://ss-shieldhall.co.uk/shieldhall-has-arrived-in-dry-dock/>

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>>>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>>>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>>>
>>> We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
>>> which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
>>> it just looks pastiche naff.
>>>
>>
>> Here's another example I recently travelled on:
>>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52723608175/in/album-72177720306437129/>
>>
>> The ship is genuinely steam-powered, but is propelled by twin screws. The
>> paddle wheels are purely decorative.
>>
>> The steam engines:
>>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52722674687/in/album-72177720306437129/>
>>
>
> Nice photos ,but, gentle cough ,ships and boats have funnels not chimneys.

Thanks, yes, now fixed. I notice they're called (smoke) stacks on the Queen
of the Mississippi:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52834513739/in/album-72177720307681289/>

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>>>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>>>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>>>
>>> We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
>>> which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
>>> it just looks pastiche naff.
>>>
>>
>> Here's another example I recently travelled on:
>>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52723608175/in/album-72177720306437129/>
>>
>> The ship is genuinely steam-powered, but is propelled by twin screws. The
>> paddle wheels are purely decorative.
>>
>> The steam engines:
>>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52722674687/in/album-72177720306437129/>
>
> I was surprised, though with retrospect I absolutely shouldn’t have been,
> when I found that the PS Waverley doesn’t, can’t use her paddles to
> manoeuvre. They’re on a single shaft, of course. I was surprised more
> understandably when she left the quay at Rothesay backwards, with
> apparently good steerage, before setting off forwards to continue her
> cruise. I’d guess there are people here who can explain why!
>

This was discussed here a few years ago, IIRC.

One shaft for both paddles is standard for paddle steamers, except for tugs
which obviously needed manoeuvrability, and had enormously wide paddles.

The standard Swiss lake paddle boats also have one shaft for both paddles,
with either a two or three cylinder steam engine (very shiny and the
centrepiece of the public area of the boat!), or a handful were converted
to diesel-electric drive in the 1960s.

The rudder is still on the centre line of the vessel, therefore it doesn't
direct the propeller wash as on other boats (anyone who's been
narrowboating will understand this effect, the steering being somewhat
ineffective unless you're applying forwards power!); the rudder on a paddle
steamer only directs passing water, so steering effectiveness depends on
the forward speed of the vessel through the water. At low speed there's
virtually no steering available. However because of the twin, linked,
paddles, they do go reliably forward and backward in a straight line
(unlike trying to reverse a narrowboat, for example).

The result of all this is that the landing stages for the Swiss boats
always protrude from the shore, sometimes quite a way. This is not just to
get enough depth; the paddlers approach the landing stages quite fast and
as straight as possible! At a handful of locations (Zürich, Luzern,
Lausanne) they moor head-on to the shore, and leave straight backwards
before turning around [1].

[1] Thun and both termini at Interlaken are along a canal from the lake, I
don't know the operating procedure at those locations.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 22/04/2023 22:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>>>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>>>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>>>
>>> We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
>>> which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
>>> it just looks pastiche naff.
>>>
>>
>> Here's another example I recently travelled on:
>>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52723608175/in/album-72177720306437129/>
>>
>> The ship is genuinely steam-powered, but is propelled by twin screws. The
>> paddle wheels are purely decorative.
>>
>> The steam engines:
>>
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52722674687/in/album-72177720306437129/>
>
> I was surprised, though with retrospect I absolutely shouldn’t have been,
> when I found that the PS Waverley doesn’t, can’t use her paddles to
> manoeuvre. They’re on a single shaft, of course. I was surprised more
> understandably when she left the quay at Rothesay backwards, with
> apparently good steerage, before setting off forwards to continue her
> cruise. I’d guess there are people here who can explain why!
>

Can't remember whether Waverley has one, but quite a few paddle steamers
had a bow rudder for manoeuvring astern, being effectively double ended.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/04/2023 22:37, Sam Wilson wrote:

>>
>> I was surprised, though with retrospect I absolutely shouldn’t have been,
>> when I found that the PS Waverley doesn’t, can’t use her paddles to
>> manoeuvre. They’re on a single shaft, of course. I was surprised more
>> understandably when she left the quay at Rothesay backwards, with
>> apparently good steerage, before setting off forwards to continue her
>> cruise. I’d guess there are people here who can explain why!

It was banned by the Board of Trade in the 19th century for what we would
call paddle steamers.
It was found it too easy for machinery failure or incorrect operation to
turn the vessel so fast that they took on a considerable list and with most
of them being quite low freeboard could take on water with an unfortunate
conclusion.

Work boats such as tugs could have the arrangement ,
The RMAS who were the organisation that moved Navy Vessels had a fleet of
Diesel Electric paddle tugs built in the 1950’s the last of which was
withdrawn in 1980 after collision damage.
>
> Can't remember whether Waverley has one, but quite a few paddle steamers
> had a bow rudder for manoeuvring astern, being effectively double ended.
>

Waverley has not got one but the Medway Queen currently under a decades
long rebuild has.

<https://www.medwayqueen.co.uk/news/medway-queen-bow-rudder>

GH

On 23/04/2023 09:30, Marland wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 22/04/2023 22:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> I was surprised, though with retrospect I absolutely shouldn’t have been,
>>> when I found that the PS Waverley doesn’t, can’t use her paddles to
>>> manoeuvre. They’re on a single shaft, of course. I was surprised more
>>> understandably when she left the quay at Rothesay backwards, with
>>> apparently good steerage, before setting off forwards to continue her
>>> cruise. I’d guess there are people here who can explain why!
>
> It was banned by the Board of Trade in the 19th century for what we would
> call paddle steamers.
> It was found it too easy for machinery failure or incorrect operation to
> turn the vessel so fast that they took on a considerable list and with most
> of them being quite low freeboard could take on water with an unfortunate
> conclusion.
>
> Work boats such as tugs could have the arrangement ,
> The RMAS who were the organisation that moved Navy Vessels had a fleet of
> Diesel Electric paddle tugs built in the 1950’s the last of which was
> withdrawn in 1980 after collision damage.
>>
>> Can't remember whether Waverley has one, but quite a few paddle steamers
>> had a bow rudder for manoeuvring astern, being effectively double ended.
>>
>
> Waverley has not got one but the Medway Queen currently under a decades
> long rebuild has.
>
> <https://www.medwayqueen.co.uk/news/medway-queen-bow-rudder>
>

Thanks, I expected you would know the answer.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 21:33:07 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>>>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>>>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>>>
>>> We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
>>> which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
>>> it just looks pastiche naff.
>>
>> There is, or was about 15 years ago, one on the Norfolk Broads called
>> Southern Comfort. Its paddlewheel was largely shrouded and my photos from
>> then don’t show any detail except that the wake filled pretty much the full
>> width of the vessel.
>>
>> Ah, here it is - very little detail: <https://www.southern-comfort.co.uk>
>
> So that sounds like it's a genuine stern-wheeler?
>

Photos in Google search results show it to have a catamaran hull and two
separate paddle wheels at the rear.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/04/2023 16:40, MB wrote:
>> On 23/04/2023 15:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Photos in Google search results show it to have a catamaran hull and two
>>> separate paddle wheels at the rear.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am fairly sure the Americans brought some of the classic Mississippi
>> paddle boats over to the UK in WWII, to use as accommodation vessels.  I
>> have a feeling there were two at Inveraray.
>>
>>
>
> Wouldn't have thought they were seaworthy enough for the North Atlantic.
> Must have travelled as deck cargo.
>

One was moored the River Itchen at Southampton sometime in the late 1980’s
- mid 1990’s though it may have been the side wheeler style rather than
rear.
Think it may have been previously in Belgium but it was a long time ago,
and whatever project it was destined for did not materialise. Was fairly
small, not all the American ones were as large as the famous ones and there
was a bit of a cull of older ones in the 1970’s as new fire regulations
were difficult to comply with being mainly a wooden superstructure.
The tourist ones like the present Natchez are modern replicas mainly in
steel.

Interestingly two survivors of the earlier era Delta Queen and Delta King
were mainly built in Glasgow up to a certain level then shipped over in
kit fashion and completed in the US.
Both of those did see service in WW2 for the US Navy as personnel carriers
but in San Francisco
bay, I wonder in view of their Scottish link the story that MB relates is a
misinterpretation of that.

Delta Queen may yet return to service after earlier exemptions from modern
regulations were with drawn as after much discussion Congress is now
amenable to allowing them again.

I have a feeling that one of the modern “replica” US paddle steamers also
uses a hull built in Scotland
possibly back in the 1970’s -80’s but as US folk don’t like to acknowledge
such things I cannot find which one.
Interestingly many of these that give the impression of being a paddler
really use more modern drives
with a dummy paddle wheel.
< https://usarivercruises.com/blog/the-truth-about-paddlewheels/>

GH

On 23/04/2023 16:40, MB wrote:
> On 23/04/2023 15:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Photos in Google search results show it to have a catamaran hull and two
>> separate paddle wheels at the rear.
>
>
>
> I am fairly sure the Americans brought some of the classic Mississippi
> paddle boats over to the UK in WWII, to use as accommodation vessels.  I
> have a feeling there were two at Inveraray.
>
>

Wouldn't have thought they were seaworthy enough for the North Atlantic.
Must have travelled as deck cargo.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 22 Apr 2023 21:33:07 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 17:39:03 -0000 (UTC)
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> Despite its many decks, it only has a shallow draft of just 2.3m (7.5').
>>>>> Despite the stern wheel, it's actually
>>>>> propelled by three retractable ZF azimuth thrusters, and it also has a
>>>>> bow thruster. And, of course, it's diesel
>>>>> powered, not steam.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is the paddle wheel powered at all, to provide some semblance of it doing
>>> some work? Or is it entirely passive, like the one on the Thames in London,
>>> merely being rotated by the passage of the water?
>>
>> We saw one on a canal in belgium last week. The paddle was entirely passive
>> which seems to be the case with all of them now. I don't know why they bother,
>> it just looks pastiche naff.
>
>There is, or was about 15 years ago, one on the Norfolk Broads called
>Southern Comfort. Its paddlewheel was largely shrouded and my photos from
>then don’t show any detail except that the wake filled pretty much the full
>width of the vessel.
>
>Ah, here it is - very little detail: <https://www.southern-comfort.co.uk>

So that sounds like it's a genuine stern-wheeler?

On 23/04/2023 15:56, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Photos in Google search results show it to have a catamaran hull and two
> separate paddle wheels at the rear.

I am fairly sure the Americans brought some of the classic Mississippi
paddle boats over to the UK in WWII, to use as accommodation vessels. I
have a feeling there were two at Inveraray.