https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-travelcard-62040/

As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
despite contactless being available.

Ah well “that’s progress!”

Lew

"Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>
>
> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-travelcard-62040/
>
>
> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
> despite contactless being available.
>
> Ah well “that’s progress!”

Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
(tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?

In message <u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:22 on Wed, 19 Apr
2023, Lew1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>
>
>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-tr
>avelcard-62040/
>
>As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>despite contactless being available.
>
>Ah well “that’s progress!”

As the article says:

"Scrapping the Day Travelcards is expected to generate approximately
£40 million of additional revenue per year ... largely at the
expense of the people who visit London."

They'll be scrapping Oyster daily capping next, I suppose, because again
a Londoner would tend to be using (if they do at all) TfL's services
almost every day of the week.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u1oc21$5ir$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:25:50 on Wed, 19 Apr
2023, NY <me@privacy.invalid> remarked:
>"Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-
>email.me...
>>
>>
>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-
>>day-travelcard-62040/
>>
>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>> despite contactless being available.
>>
>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>
>Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers
>unlimited journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping
>of the paper ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a
>credit/debit card (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the
>paper ticket?

In the article:

"the main impact is likely to be on people who buy a {outboundary -
rp} Travelcard in addition to their National Rail ticket, as they
would have to pay for their journey to a London station and then use
PAYG contactless payments, or buy paper tickets to travel on TfL
services."

Noting also that you can get a Railcard discount on the outboundary
travelcard, but you can't on TfL contactless payments.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:34:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:22 on Wed, 19 Apr
>2023, Lew1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>
>>
>>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-tr
>>avelcard-62040/
>>
>>As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>despite contactless being available.
>>
>>Ah well “that’s progress!”
>
>As the article says:
>
> "Scrapping the Day Travelcards is expected to generate approximately
> £40 million of additional revenue per year ... largely at the
> expense of the people who visit London."
>
>They'll be scrapping Oyster daily capping next, I suppose, because again
>a Londoner would tend to be using (if they do at all) TfL's services
>almost every day of the week.

What about Oyster itself? As far as I can see, most passengers are
using contactless payment instead. Has the Oyster card (as we say in
Glasgow) 'had its chips'?

NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>
>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-travelcard-62040/
>>
>>
>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>> despite contactless being available.
>>
>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>
> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?

Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
off using PayG.

For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
London):

Pay as you go cap: £8.10
Travelcard (Valid for Zones 1-4): £15.20

For Z1-4
Pay as you go cap: £11.70
Travelcard: £15.20

And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the PayG fares
might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors with UK
contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off using
them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.

So a bit of a non-story, really.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:34:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:22 on Wed, 19 Apr
>> 2023, Lew1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-tr
>>> avelcard-62040/
>>>
>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>
>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>
>> As the article says:
>>
>> "Scrapping the Day Travelcards is expected to generate approximately
>> £40 million of additional revenue per year ... largely at the
>> expense of the people who visit London."
>>
>> They'll be scrapping Oyster daily capping next, I suppose, because again
>> a Londoner would tend to be using (if they do at all) TfL's services
>> almost every day of the week.
>
> What about Oyster itself? As far as I can see, most passengers are
> using contactless payment instead. Has the Oyster card (as we say in
> Glasgow) 'had its chips'?
>

No, it still has some valid uses (eg, Railcard discounts, children, Freedom
passes, etc). So it will continue, but all processing will move to the back
office once that's possible.

In message <u1oilb$14jn$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:03 on Wed, 19 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-
>>>travelcard-62040/
>>>
>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>
>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>
>> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
>> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
>> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
>> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?
>
>Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>off using PayG.
>
>For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
>London):
>
>Pay as you go cap: £8.10
>Travelcard (Valid for Zones 1-4): £15.20
>
>For Z1-4
>Pay as you go cap: £11.70
>Travelcard: £15.20
>
>And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the PayG fares
>might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors with UK
>contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off using
>them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.
>
>So a bit of a non-story, really.

The story is that most of the victims here are people buying outboundary
Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a Railcard discount. It
depends a lot where you are starting from whether the National Rail fare
+ daily cap is more or less than Outboundary Travelcard.
--
Roland Perry

In message <u1oilc$14jn$6@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:04 on Wed, 19 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:34:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:22 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>> 2023, Lew1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-tr
>>>> avelcard-62040/
>>>>
>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>
>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>
>>> As the article says:
>>>
>>> "Scrapping the Day Travelcards is expected to generate approximately
>>> £40 million of additional revenue per year ... largely at the
>>> expense of the people who visit London."
>>>
>>> They'll be scrapping Oyster daily capping next, I suppose, because again
>>> a Londoner would tend to be using (if they do at all) TfL's services
>>> almost every day of the week.
>>
>> What about Oyster itself? As far as I can see, most passengers are
>> using contactless payment instead. Has the Oyster card (as we say in
>> Glasgow) 'had its chips'?
>>
>
>No, it still has some valid uses (eg, Railcard discounts, children,

And of course, some or all of those benefits might rot way over time
too.

>Freedom passes, etc). So it will continue, but all processing will move
>to the back office once that's possible.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <u1oilc$14jn$6@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:04 on Wed, 19 Apr
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:34:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:22 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>>> 2023, Lew1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-tr
>>>>> avelcard-62040/
>>>>>
>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>
>>>> As the article says:
>>>>
>>>> "Scrapping the Day Travelcards is expected to generate approximately
>>>> £40 million of additional revenue per year ... largely at the
>>>> expense of the people who visit London."
>>>>
>>>> They'll be scrapping Oyster daily capping next, I suppose, because again
>>>> a Londoner would tend to be using (if they do at all) TfL's services
>>>> almost every day of the week.
>>>
>>> What about Oyster itself? As far as I can see, most passengers are
>>> using contactless payment instead. Has the Oyster card (as we say in
>>> Glasgow) 'had its chips'?
>>>
>>
>> No, it still has some valid uses (eg, Railcard discounts, children,
>
> And of course, some or all of those benefits might rot way over time
> too.

There's no reason to believe that, but it's highly likely that contactless
will get Railcard discounts as part of the DfT-funded extension project.
But, even then, there will still be use cases that require some form of
Oyster to continue.

In message <u1okfi$1d1k$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:06 on Wed, 19 Apr
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <u1oilc$14jn$6@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:04 on Wed, 19 Apr
>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:34:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:22 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Lew1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-tr
>>>>>> avelcard-62040/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most
>>>>>>inconvenient
>>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>>
>>>>> As the article says:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Scrapping the Day Travelcards is expected to generate approximately
>>>>> £40 million of additional revenue per year ... largely at the
>>>>> expense of the people who visit London."
>>>>>
>>>>> They'll be scrapping Oyster daily capping next, I suppose, because again
>>>>> a Londoner would tend to be using (if they do at all) TfL's services
>>>>> almost every day of the week.
>>>>
>>>> What about Oyster itself? As far as I can see, most passengers are
>>>> using contactless payment instead. Has the Oyster card (as we say in
>>>> Glasgow) 'had its chips'?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No, it still has some valid uses (eg, Railcard discounts, children,
>>
>> And of course, some or all of those benefits might rot way over time
>> too.
>
>There's no reason to believe that, but it's highly likely that contactless
>will get Railcard discounts as part of the DfT-funded extension project.

In both cases that runs counter to the theme of the story which is "we
are broke and promised the Treasury we'd raise more revenue".

>But, even then, there will still be use cases that require some form of
>Oyster to continue.

--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:42:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <u1oilb$14jn$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:03 on Wed, 19 Apr
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-
>>>>travelcard-62040/
>>>>
>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>
>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>
>>> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
>>> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
>>> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
>>> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?
>>
>>Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>>cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>off using PayG.
>>
>>For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
>>London):
>>
>>Pay as you go cap: £8.10
>>Travelcard (Valid for Zones 1-4): £15.20
>>
>>For Z1-4
>>Pay as you go cap: £11.70
>>Travelcard: £15.20
>>
>>And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the PayG fares
>>might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors with UK
>>contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off using
>>them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.
>>
>>So a bit of a non-story, really.
>
>The story is that most of the victims here are people buying outboundary
>Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a Railcard discount. It
>depends a lot where you are starting from whether the National Rail fare
>+ daily cap is more or less than Outboundary Travelcard.

Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?

On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 13:42:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <u1okfi$1d1k$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:06 on Wed, 19 Apr
>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <u1oilc$14jn$6@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:04 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:34:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:22 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>>>>> 2023, Lew1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-tr
>>>>>>> avelcard-62040/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most
>>>>>>>inconvenient
>>>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As the article says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Scrapping the Day Travelcards is expected to generate approximately
>>>>>> £40 million of additional revenue per year ... largely at the
>>>>>> expense of the people who visit London."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They'll be scrapping Oyster daily capping next, I suppose, because again
>>>>>> a Londoner would tend to be using (if they do at all) TfL's services
>>>>>> almost every day of the week.
>>>>>
>>>>> What about Oyster itself? As far as I can see, most passengers are
>>>>> using contactless payment instead. Has the Oyster card (as we say in
>>>>> Glasgow) 'had its chips'?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, it still has some valid uses (eg, Railcard discounts, children,
>>>
>>> And of course, some or all of those benefits might rot way over time
>>> too.
>>
>>There's no reason to believe that, but it's highly likely that contactless
>>will get Railcard discounts as part of the DfT-funded extension project.
>
>In both cases that runs counter to the theme of the story which is "we
>are broke and promised the Treasury we'd raise more revenue".

The Travelcard revenue is shared with the TOC, so perhaps TfL only gets a small part of it, whereas it keeps all the
Oyster/PayG revenues. So, ironically, TfL may be raising the extra revenue at the expense of the DfT!

According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
>Noting also that you can get a Railcard discount on the outboundary
>travelcard, but you can't on TfL contactless payments.

Apparently there's a fix planned for that, so you can tie a railcard
to your contactless card.

The comments on the article point out a different, rather narrow
problem. You can use a Two Together railcard to get two discounted
travelcards, but there will still be no way to put that railcard on
contactless or, I suppose, on Oyster.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

In message <u1q480$p56$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 01:24:16 on Thu, 20 Apr 2023,
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:

>>Noting also that you can get a Railcard discount on the outboundary
>>travelcard, but you can't on TfL contactless payments.
>
>Apparently there's a fix planned for that, so you can tie a railcard
>to your contactless card.

It's been "planned" for several years, but they never do it. Difficult
to know if this is mere idleness, a wish not to lose the revenue, some
actual technical issue, or something out of the can-of-worms.

For example, it rather assumes people use the same contactless card all
the time, or can one associate multiple cards with one TfL account, and
that *account* has the discount associated with it.

Due to the pandemic, I didn't renew my Senior railcard until I had a
prospect of using it, so that needs linking to my Oyster when I'm next
in London [providing an online pathway to do it is apparently "too
difficult"].

>The comments on the article point out a different, rather narrow
>problem. You can use a Two Together railcard to get two discounted
>travelcards, but there will still be no way to put that railcard on
>contactless or, I suppose, on Oyster.

Isn't there also something about the free-companion tickets for the
disabled?
--
Roland Perry

In message <cvqv3ip4v4e6i3n6srm6b549bdgfg7djs1@4ax.com>, at 14:26:44 on
Wed, 19 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:42:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <u1oilb$14jn$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:03 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-
>>>>>travelcard-62040/
>>>>>
>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>
>>>> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
>>>> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
>>>> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
>>>> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?
>>>
>>>Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>>>cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>>off using PayG.
>>>
>>>For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
>>>London):
>>>
>>>Pay as you go cap: £8.10
>>>Travelcard (Valid for Zones 1-4): £15.20
>>>
>>>For Z1-4
>>>Pay as you go cap: £11.70
>>>Travelcard: £15.20
>>>
>>>And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the PayG fares
>>>might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors with UK
>>>contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off using
>>>them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.
>>>
>>>So a bit of a non-story, really.
>>
>>The story is that most of the victims here are people buying outboundary
>>Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a Railcard discount. It
>>depends a lot where you are starting from whether the National Rail fare
>>+ daily cap is more or less than Outboundary Travelcard.
>
>Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?

This from December 2021:

Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:

Anytime Off-peak

Reading £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00 £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
Cambridge £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40 £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
Brighton* £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10 £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30

*Thameslink only.

And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.

Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)

Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
--
Roland Perry

In message <o0rv3id11mqenmkf4b7onfqve94lqo01es@4ax.com>, at 14:31:21 on
Wed, 19 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 13:42:47 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <u1okfi$1d1k$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:49:06 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <u1oilc$14jn$6@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:04 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:34:13 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:30:22 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>>>>>> 2023, Lew1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-tr
>>>>>>>> avelcard-62040/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most
>>>>>>>>inconvenient
>>>>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As the article says:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Scrapping the Day Travelcards is expected to generate approximately
>>>>>>> £40 million of additional revenue per year ... largely at the
>>>>>>> expense of the people who visit London."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They'll be scrapping Oyster daily capping next, I suppose, because again
>>>>>>> a Londoner would tend to be using (if they do at all) TfL's services
>>>>>>> almost every day of the week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about Oyster itself? As far as I can see, most passengers are
>>>>>> using contactless payment instead. Has the Oyster card (as we say in
>>>>>> Glasgow) 'had its chips'?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it still has some valid uses (eg, Railcard discounts, children,
>>>>
>>>> And of course, some or all of those benefits might rot way over time
>>>> too.
>>>
>>>There's no reason to believe that, but it's highly likely that contactless
>>>will get Railcard discounts as part of the DfT-funded extension project.
>>
>>In both cases that runs counter to the theme of the story which is "we
>>are broke and promised the Treasury we'd raise more revenue".
>
>The Travelcard revenue is shared with the TOC, so perhaps TfL only gets
>a small part of it, whereas it keeps all the Oyster/PayG revenues. So,
>ironically, TfL may be raising the extra revenue at the expense of the
>DfT!

The TOC will get 9% sales commission too, regardless of how they split
the Orcats-ish revenue between TfL and National Rail TOCs.

Meanwhile, I presume they've looked at the possibility that scrapping
Outboundary Travelcards will put some people off travelling at all - not
just the extra cost but throwing in the towel in the face of the extra
hassle of being forced into this split-ticketing regime, including quite
likely the general learning curve of becoming a CCC user.
--
Roland Perry

On 20.04.23 07:44, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <cvqv3ip4v4e6i3n6srm6b549bdgfg7djs1@4ax.com>, at 14:26:44 on
> Wed, 19 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:42:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <u1oilb$14jn$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:03 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-
>>>>>> travelcard-62040/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
>>>>> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
>>>>> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
>>>>> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?
>>>>
>>>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>>>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>>> off using PayG.
>>>>
>>>> For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
>>>> London):
>>>>
>>>> Pay as you go cap: £8.10
>>>> Travelcard (Valid for Zones 1-4): £15.20
>>>>
>>>> For Z1-4
>>>> Pay as you go cap: £11.70
>>>> Travelcard: £15.20
>>>>
>>>> And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the PayG fares
>>>> might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors with UK
>>>> contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off using
>>>> them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.
>>>>
>>>> So a bit of a non-story, really.
>>>
>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying outboundary
>>> Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a Railcard discount. It
>>> depends a lot where you are starting from whether the National Rail fare
>>> + daily cap is more or less than Outboundary Travelcard.
>>
>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?
>
> This from December 2021:
>
> Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>
> Anytime Off-peak
>
> Reading £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00 £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
> Cambridge £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40 £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
> Brighton* £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10 £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>
> *Thameslink only.
>
> And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.
>
> Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)
>
> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.

And Finsbury Park or Kentish Town are cheaper still, and as the
daily/weekly cap is based on Z1/2 not Z1 only, by buying a ticket all
the way to London Terminals, you are leaving money on the table. Surely
those stations should be a priority over SPILL for this kind of
split-ticketting.

The issue of switching from PAYG to beyond-London paper tickets is a
much broader problem, and one that affects a large number of stations
all around the London area. I recently made a diversion on a trip
through London that ended in Gravesend, and diverted via the Elizabeth
line. I was somewhat surprised that there are no validators on the
footbridges between the Elizabeth line and North Kent line platforms at
Abby Wood, to terminate the Oyster journey required a trip to the
gateline (though there are signs up saying they will rectify this in the
coming months). There are lots of stations where the two ticketing
systems interface with poor provision for starting/ending Oyster
journeys when continuing by rail on a paper ticket.

Robin

In message <u1qohs$gc5g$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:10:52 on Thu, 20 Apr
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 20.04.23 07:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <cvqv3ip4v4e6i3n6srm6b549bdgfg7djs1@4ax.com>, at 14:26:44 on
>> Wed, 19 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:42:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <u1oilb$14jn$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:03 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-
>>>>>>> travelcard-62040/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most
>>>>>>>inconvenient
>>>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
>>>>>> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
>>>>>> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
>>>>>> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?
>>>>>
>>>>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are
>>>>>significantly
>>>>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>>>> off using PayG.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
>>>>> London):
>>>>>
>>>>> Pay as you go cap: £8.10
>>>>> Travelcard (Valid for Zones 1-4): £15.20
>>>>>
>>>>> For Z1-4
>>>>> Pay as you go cap: £11.70
>>>>> Travelcard: £15.20
>>>>>
>>>>> And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the PayG fares
>>>>> might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors with UK
>>>>> contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off using
>>>>> them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.
>>>>>
>>>>> So a bit of a non-story, really.
>>>>
>>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying outboundary
>>>> Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a Railcard discount. It
>>>> depends a lot where you are starting from whether the National Rail fare
>>>> + daily cap is more or less than Outboundary Travelcard.
>>>
>>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?
>> This from December 2021:
>> Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>> Anytime Off-peak
>> Reading £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00 £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
>> Cambridge £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40 £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
>> Brighton* £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10 £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>> *Thameslink only.
>> And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
>> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.
>> Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
>> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
>> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)
>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward
>>TfL
>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>
>And Finsbury Park or Kentish Town are cheaper still, and as the
>daily/weekly cap is based on Z1/2 not Z1 only, by buying a ticket all
>the way to London Terminals, you are leaving money on the table. Surely
>those stations should be a priority over SPILL for this kind of
>split-ticketting.

Only if your train stops there, of course. And you are happy to get off,
go find somewhere to "touch in", then get on the next train.

>The issue of switching from PAYG to beyond-London paper tickets is a
>much broader problem, and one that affects a large number of stations
>all around the London area.

I first did that years ago at Croydon, had to exit the barriers, and
then re-enter, en-route to Gatwick (which iirc is now "in the zones").

>I recently made a diversion on a trip through London that ended in
>Gravesend, and diverted via the Elizabeth line. I was somewhat
>surprised that there are no validators on the footbridges between the
>Elizabeth line and North Kent line platforms at Abby Wood, to terminate
>the Oyster journey required a trip to the gateline (though there are
>signs up saying they will rectify this in the coming months). There are
>lots of stations where the two ticketing systems interface with poor
>provision for starting/ending Oyster journeys when continuing by rail
>on a paper ticket.
>
>Robin

--
Roland Perry

On 20.04.23 11:07, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <u1qohs$gc5g$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:10:52 on Thu, 20 Apr
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 20.04.23 07:44, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <cvqv3ip4v4e6i3n6srm6b549bdgfg7djs1@4ax.com>, at 14:26:44 on
>>> Wed, 19 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:42:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <u1oilb$14jn$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:03 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-
>>>>>>>> travelcard-62040/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most
>>>>>>>> inconvenient
>>>>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper
>>>>>>>> travel
>>>>>>>> card  with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest
>>>>>>>> option-
>>>>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers
>>>>>>> unlimited
>>>>>>> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of
>>>>>>> the paper
>>>>>>> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a
>>>>>>> credit/debit card
>>>>>>> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are
>>>>>> significantly
>>>>>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be
>>>>>> better
>>>>>> off using PayG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
>>>>>> London):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pay as you go cap:     £8.10
>>>>>> Travelcard     (Valid for Zones 1-4):  £15.20
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For Z1-4
>>>>>> Pay as you go cap:     £11.70
>>>>>> Travelcard:    £15.20
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the
>>>>>> PayG fares
>>>>>> might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors
>>>>>> with UK
>>>>>> contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So a bit of a non-story, really.
>>>>>
>>>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying
>>>>> outboundary
>>>>> Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a Railcard discount. It
>>>>> depends a lot where you are starting from whether the National Rail
>>>>> fare
>>>>> + daily cap is more or less than Outboundary Travelcard.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?
>>>  This from December 2021:
>>>      Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>>>                      Anytime              Off-peak
>>>      Reading     £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00   £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
>>>     Cambridge   £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40   £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
>>>     Brighton*   £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10   £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>>>      *Thameslink only.
>>>  And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
>>> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.
>>>  Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
>>> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
>>> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)
>>>  Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>>
>> And Finsbury Park or Kentish Town are cheaper still, and as the
>> daily/weekly cap is based on Z1/2 not Z1 only, by buying a ticket all
>> the way to London Terminals, you are leaving money on the table.
>> Surely those stations should be a priority over SPILL for this kind of
>> split-ticketting.
>
> Only if your train stops there, of course.

Which is all of them (on the MML side, all trains stop at West
Hampstead, which is also Z2, though some skip Kentish Town).

> And you are happy to get off, go find somewhere to "touch in", then get
> on the next train.

Isn't that exactly what you've been suggesting should happen at SPILL?
Even with the split of routes, the daytime frequency on either route is
sub-10 minute interval, so even if you do miss getting back on the train
you got off, it's a trivial delay.

>> The issue of switching from PAYG to beyond-London paper tickets is a
>> much broader problem, and one that affects a large number of stations
>> all around the London area.
>
> I first did that years ago at Croydon, had to exit the barriers, and
> then re-enter, en-route to Gatwick (which iirc is now "in the zones").

Indeed. The sations where it actually makes sense to switch between
paper and oyster tickets ought to be made a priority over a staion like
SPILL where there isn't really a use case for doing so.

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <cvqv3ip4v4e6i3n6srm6b549bdgfg7djs1@4ax.com>, at 14:26:44 on
> Wed, 19 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:42:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <u1oilb$14jn$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:03 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-
>>>>>> travelcard-62040/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
>>>>> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
>>>>> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
>>>>> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?
>>>>
>>>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>>>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>>> off using PayG.
>>>>
>>>> For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
>>>> London):
>>>>
>>>> Pay as you go cap: £8.10
>>>> Travelcard (Valid for Zones 1-4): £15.20
>>>>
>>>> For Z1-4
>>>> Pay as you go cap: £11.70
>>>> Travelcard: £15.20
>>>>
>>>> And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the PayG fares
>>>> might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors with UK
>>>> contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off using
>>>> them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.
>>>>
>>>> So a bit of a non-story, really.
>>>
>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying outboundary
>>> Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a Railcard discount. It
>>> depends a lot where you are starting from whether the National Rail fare
>>> + daily cap is more or less than Outboundary Travelcard.
>>
>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?
>
> This from December 2021:
>
> Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>
> Anytime Off-peak
>
> Reading £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00 £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
> Cambridge £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40 £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
> Brighton* £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10 £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>
> *Thameslink only.
>
> And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.
>
> Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)
>
> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.

I just looked at Gerards Cross to Marylebone. The off-peak return is £18,
or £22 with an off-peak day Travelcard.

A slightly more complicated example is Ashtead to London. If the off-peak
journey is restricted to Southern, it's £9.80, or £12.60 to any London
terminal. With Travelcard, it's £15.20.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <cvqv3ip4v4e6i3n6srm6b549bdgfg7djs1@4ax.com>, at 14:26:44 on
>> Wed, 19 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:42:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <u1oilb$14jn$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:03 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-
>>>>>>> travelcard-62040/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
>>>>>> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
>>>>>> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
>>>>>> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?
>>>>>
>>>>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>>>>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>>>> off using PayG.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
>>>>> London):
>>>>>
>>>>> Pay as you go cap: £8.10
>>>>> Travelcard (Valid for Zones 1-4): £15.20
>>>>>
>>>>> For Z1-4
>>>>> Pay as you go cap: £11.70
>>>>> Travelcard: £15.20
>>>>>
>>>>> And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the PayG fares
>>>>> might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors with UK
>>>>> contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off using
>>>>> them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.
>>>>>
>>>>> So a bit of a non-story, really.
>>>>
>>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying outboundary
>>>> Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a Railcard discount. It
>>>> depends a lot where you are starting from whether the National Rail fare
>>>> + daily cap is more or less than Outboundary Travelcard.
>>>
>>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?
>>
>> This from December 2021:
>>
>> Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>>
>> Anytime Off-peak
>>
>> Reading £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00 £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
>> Cambridge £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40 £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
>> Brighton* £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10 £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>>
>> *Thameslink only.
>>
>> And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
>> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.
>>
>> Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
>> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
>> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)
>>
>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>
> I just looked at Gerards Cross to Marylebone. The off-peak return is £18,
> or £22 with an off-peak day Travelcard.
>
> A slightly more complicated example is Ashtead to London. If the off-peak
> journey is restricted to Southern, it's £9.80, or £12.60 to any London
> terminal. With Travelcard, it's £15.20.
>

What I forgot to add is that TfL probably sees less than half of that
increment for the Travelcard, so it will certainly gain if passengers use
PayG instead.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> The TOC will get 9% sales commission too, regardless of how they split
> the Orcats-ish revenue between TfL and National Rail TOCs.

I think it's 5% these days.

> Meanwhile, I presume they've looked at the possibility that scrapping
> Outboundary Travelcards will put some people off travelling at all - not
> just the extra cost but throwing in the towel in the face of the extra
> hassle of being forced into this split-ticketing regime, including quite
> likely the general learning curve of becoming a CCC user.

I suspect a large number of such tickets are used purely for a pair of
journeys in zone 1, and users on some flows may overpay for the full Z1-6
travelcard purely for convenience. Such users may end up paying less with
CCC, although it remains to be seen whether TfL gets less revenue as a
result.

Theo

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 09:51:28 -0000 (UTC), Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <cvqv3ip4v4e6i3n6srm6b549bdgfg7djs1@4ax.com>, at 14:26:44 on
>> Wed, 19 Apr 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 12:42:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <u1oilb$14jn$5@dont-email.me>, at 11:18:03 on Wed, 19 Apr
>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> "Lew1" <email@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:u1o1pu$3ujm3$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/tfl-looking-at-scrapping-the-day-
>>>>>>> travelcard-62040/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As it says in the article, scrapping the ticket would be most inconvenient
>>>>>>> for visitors to London. For me, living in Hertfordshire, a paper travel
>>>>>>> card with the network railcard discount is still the cheapest option-
>>>>>>> despite contactless being available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ah well “that’s progress!”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is this scrapping of the *concept* of a single fare that covers unlimited
>>>>>> journeys within a geographical boundary, or is it scrapping of the paper
>>>>>> ticket that proves you've paid the fare, so you use a credit/debit card
>>>>>> (tapped or inserted) at each station in lieu of the paper ticket?
>>>>>
>>>>> Daily caps would still apply with Oyster/contactless, and are significantly
>>>>> cheaper than paper travelcards. So, arguably, most people would be better
>>>>> off using PayG.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, if a visitor wants unlimited travel in Z1-2 (ie, central
>>>>> London):
>>>>>
>>>>> Pay as you go cap: £8.10
>>>>> Travelcard (Valid for Zones 1-4): £15.20
>>>>>
>>>>> For Z1-4
>>>>> Pay as you go cap: £11.70
>>>>> Travelcard: £15.20
>>>>>
>>>>> And, of course, actual usage may be less than expected, so the PayG fares
>>>>> might actually be much lower than the cap. So almost all visitors with UK
>>>>> contactless cards or smartphones would already be much better off using
>>>>> them rather than buying a paper Travelcard.
>>>>>
>>>>> So a bit of a non-story, really.
>>>>
>>>> The story is that most of the victims here are people buying outboundary
>>>> Travelcards as a supplement, especially with a Railcard discount. It
>>>> depends a lot where you are starting from whether the National Rail fare
>>>> + daily cap is more or less than Outboundary Travelcard.
>>>
>>> Yes, agreed. Do you have some example calculations?
>>
>> This from December 2021:
>>
>> Straw poll of outboundary Travelcard (Z1-6) supplement:
>>
>> Anytime Off-peak
>>
>> Reading £57.20-£50.20 = £7.00 £26.70-£21.90 = £4.80
>> Cambridge £55.00-£45.60 = £9.40 £36.40-£27.60 = £8.80
>> Brighton* £53.70-£45.60 = £8.10 £26.00-£19.70 = £6.30
>>
>> *Thameslink only.
>>
>> And without wishing to open old wounds, if I buy an outboundary
>> Travelcard and arrive in London via SPILL, I can just carry on my way.
>>
>> Whereas if all I'm allowed is a return to "London Thameslink" plus
>> contactless, I have to seek out a validator when I get off the
>> Thameslink train (eg at Farringdon)
>>
>> Although the fare to "London Terminals" is cheaper, and the onward TfL
>> fares no more expensive, but there aren't any validators downstairs at
>> SPILL, dear Liza, dear Liza.
>
>I just looked at Gerards Cross to Marylebone. The off-peak return is £18,
>or £22 with an off-peak day Travelcard.

Looking at this in more detail:

Offpeak
GER-MYB return £18
GER-WRU (Z6 boundary) return: £7.80
GER+Travelcard Z1-6: £22

So, the Z1-6 travelcard is an increment of £14.20 (how much of that would TfL see?). Buying the Travelcard on its own
would cost £15.20, or the daily Z1-6 cap would be £14.90. Of course, most London visitors probably stay within Z1-2,
where the cap is £8.10.

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 06:24:02 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <u1q480$p56$1@gal.iecc.com>, at 01:24:16 on Thu, 20 Apr 2023,
>John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> remarked:
>>According to Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>:
>
>>>Noting also that you can get a Railcard discount on the outboundary
>>>travelcard, but you can't on TfL contactless payments.
>>
>>Apparently there's a fix planned for that, so you can tie a railcard
>>to your contactless card.
>
>It's been "planned" for several years, but they never do it. Difficult
>to know if this is mere idleness, a wish not to lose the revenue, some
>actual technical issue, or something out of the can-of-worms.

It's finally happening as part of the PayG extension. My guess is that TfL deferred it, as it had nothing to gain from
it.