https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium

From

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-2022-23.pdf

On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>
> From
>
> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-2022-23.pdf

Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies! Trans
Pennine will presumably get older now they are withdrawing the new-ish
Nova 3 sets.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>
>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>
>> From
>>
>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-2022-23.pdf
>
> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!

Yes, I think the 345s were the first Aventras to enter service.

> Trans
> Pennine will presumably get older now they are withdrawing the new-ish
> Nova 3 sets.

Yes, and it's possible those modern Mk 5A carriages could transfer to
Chiltern, to replace the elderly Mk 3s. Apart from being much newer, the
use of DTs rather than DVTs would allow more passenger carrying vehicles in
MYB's limited platform lengths.

Plenty of stock is available, allowing Chiltern to increase its fleet if
needed, or time to do any required refurbishment of the other stock.
However, the experimental hybrid conversion of the 168s has been abandoned,
so they probably won't be retractioned before replacement.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>
>>> From
>>>
>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-2022-23.pdf
>>
>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>
> Yes, I think the 345s were the first Aventras to enter service.
>
>> Trans
>> Pennine will presumably get older now they are withdrawing the new-ish
>> Nova 3 sets.
>
> Yes, and it's possible those modern Mk 5A carriages could transfer to
> Chiltern, to replace the elderly Mk 3s. Apart from being much newer, the
> use of DTs rather than DVTs would allow more passenger carrying vehicles in
> MYB's limited platform lengths.
>

Moor Street is more restricted than Marylebone. I reckon you could find one
more coach at Moor Street, but there's space for another three at
Marylebone.

> Plenty of stock is available, allowing Chiltern to increase its fleet if
> needed, or time to do any required refurbishment of the other stock.
> However, the experimental hybrid conversion of the 168s has been abandoned,
> so they probably won't be retractioned before replacement.
>

What "plenty of other [suitable] diesel stock" is available?

I wouldn't consider 159/153/156 suitable for CR; 158 possibly I suppose
when freed up from TfW; 170s all seem to be committed to new homes;
flammable 175s keep being suggested?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>
>>>> From
>>>>
>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-2022-23.pdf
>>>
>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>
>> Yes, I think the 345s were the first Aventras to enter service.
>>
>>> Trans
>>> Pennine will presumably get older now they are withdrawing the new-ish
>>> Nova 3 sets.
>>
>> Yes, and it's possible those modern Mk 5A carriages could transfer to
>> Chiltern, to replace the elderly Mk 3s. Apart from being much newer, the
>> use of DTs rather than DVTs would allow more passenger carrying vehicles in
>> MYB's limited platform lengths.
>>
>
> Moor Street is more restricted than Marylebone. I reckon you could find one
> more coach at Moor Street, but there's space for another three at
> Marylebone.

Not when they double up the trains in the platforms.

>
>> Plenty of stock is available, allowing Chiltern to increase its fleet if
>> needed, or time to do any required refurbishment of the other stock.
>> However, the experimental hybrid conversion of the 168s has been abandoned,
>> so they probably won't be retractioned before replacement.
>>
>
> What "plenty of other [suitable] diesel stock" is available?

I was obviously referring to the Mk 5A carriages hauled by class 68s.
Chiltern could probably use more LHCS rakes on the Oxford and Brum routes.
TPE uses them in 5-car rakes, but Chiltern could probably use 6 or even
7-car rakes, including the DT.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-2022-23.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>>
>>> Yes, I think the 345s were the first Aventras to enter service.
>>>
>>>> Trans
>>>> Pennine will presumably get older now they are withdrawing the new-ish
>>>> Nova 3 sets.
>>>
>>> Yes, and it's possible those modern Mk 5A carriages could transfer to
>>> Chiltern, to replace the elderly Mk 3s. Apart from being much newer, the
>>> use of DTs rather than DVTs would allow more passenger carrying vehicles in
>>> MYB's limited platform lengths.
>>>
>>
>> Moor Street is more restricted than Marylebone. I reckon you could find one
>> more coach at Moor Street, but there's space for another three at
>> Marylebone.
>
> Not when they double up the trains in the platforms.
>
>>
>>> Plenty of stock is available, allowing Chiltern to increase its fleet if
>>> needed, or time to do any required refurbishment of the other stock.
>>> However, the experimental hybrid conversion of the 168s has been abandoned,
>>> so they probably won't be retractioned before replacement.
>>>
>>
>> What "plenty of other [suitable] diesel stock" is available?
>
> I was obviously referring to the Mk 5A carriages hauled by class 68s.
> Chiltern could probably use more LHCS rakes on the Oxford and Brum routes.
> TPE uses them in 5-car rakes, but Chiltern could probably use 6 or even
> 7-car rakes, including the DT.
>
>

"Plenty" to replace Chiltern's existing LHCS and perhaps a handful of
others sets, but that's only a fraction of their fleet; the 30+ year old
165s and 25 year old 168s contribute the majority of the age of their
fleet.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-2022-23.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I think the 345s were the first Aventras to enter service.
>>>>
>>>>> Trans
>>>>> Pennine will presumably get older now they are withdrawing the new-ish
>>>>> Nova 3 sets.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, and it's possible those modern Mk 5A carriages could transfer to
>>>> Chiltern, to replace the elderly Mk 3s. Apart from being much newer, the
>>>> use of DTs rather than DVTs would allow more passenger carrying vehicles in
>>>> MYB's limited platform lengths.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Moor Street is more restricted than Marylebone. I reckon you could find one
>>> more coach at Moor Street, but there's space for another three at
>>> Marylebone.
>>
>> Not when they double up the trains in the platforms.
>>
>>>
>>>> Plenty of stock is available, allowing Chiltern to increase its fleet if
>>>> needed, or time to do any required refurbishment of the other stock.
>>>> However, the experimental hybrid conversion of the 168s has been abandoned,
>>>> so they probably won't be retractioned before replacement.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What "plenty of other [suitable] diesel stock" is available?
>>
>> I was obviously referring to the Mk 5A carriages hauled by class 68s.
>> Chiltern could probably use more LHCS rakes on the Oxford and Brum routes.
>> TPE uses them in 5-car rakes, but Chiltern could probably use 6 or even
>> 7-car rakes, including the DT.
>>
>>
>
> "Plenty" to replace Chiltern's existing LHCS and perhaps a handful of
> others sets, but that's only a fraction of their fleet; the 30+ year old
> 165s and 25 year old 168s contribute the majority of the age of their
> fleet.

Yes. But what I meant was that there were more than enough TPE Mk 5A sets
to replace all the Mk 3 sets, plus a reasonable LHCS capacity increase (in
both rake numbers and length), plus a few more to cover for the DMU fleet
during a potential refurbishment/life extension programme.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes. But what I meant was that there were more than enough TPE Mk 5A sets
> to replace all the Mk 3 sets, plus a reasonable LHCS capacity increase (in
> both rake numbers and length), plus a few more to cover for the DMU fleet
> during a potential refurbishment/life extension programme.

I wonder whether they would want to replace the Mk3s, though. I think they
own the Mk3 fleet, whereas the Mk5s will have to be leased. Depends how
maintenance costs on the elderly Mk3s compare with whatever deal they can
strike with the Mk5's leaseco.

I think the 16x are leased, so maybe Mk5s would have comparable costs when
swapped in for them, I don't know. Or purely as a fleet expansion.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes. But what I meant was that there were more than enough TPE Mk 5A sets
>> to replace all the Mk 3 sets, plus a reasonable LHCS capacity increase (in
>> both rake numbers and length), plus a few more to cover for the DMU fleet
>> during a potential refurbishment/life extension programme.
>
> I wonder whether they would want to replace the Mk3s, though. I think they
> own the Mk3 fleet, whereas the Mk5s will have to be leased. Depends how
> maintenance costs on the elderly Mk3s compare with whatever deal they can
> strike with the Mk5's leaseco.
>
> I think the 16x are leased, so maybe Mk5s would have comparable costs when
> swapped in for them, I don't know. Or purely as a fleet expansion.
>
>

I've seen suggestions that the Mk3s are coming up to needing an overhaul
sometime soon (when I travelled a few weeks ago they were certainly
beginning to look a bit scruffy).

Also isn't high running costs compared to DMUs one of the reasons cited for
TOCs cutting back on loco/HST use (including Chiltern, who use only three
of their six sets, AFAICT).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 20 Oct 2023 11:35:16 +0100 (BST), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes. But what I meant was that there were more than enough TPE Mk 5A sets
>> to replace all the Mk 3 sets, plus a reasonable LHCS capacity increase (in
>> both rake numbers and length), plus a few more to cover for the DMU fleet
>> during a potential refurbishment/life extension programme.
>
>I wonder whether they would want to replace the Mk3s, though. I think they
>own the Mk3 fleet, whereas the Mk5s will have to be leased. Depends how
>maintenance costs on the elderly Mk3s compare with whatever deal they can
>strike with the Mk5's leaseco.

It may depend on when the Mk 3s next need refurbishing or heavy maintenance.

Also, are all the Mk 3s owned, or only a few. And, who exactly owns them? I think it's DB, which then leases them to
Chiltern. It won't be the franchise itself, so whoever owns them will be leasing them to the TOC.

With DB selling off Arriva, I wonder if the carriages will end up owned by Arriva (I Squared), DB Cargo or DB itself?

If Beacon can't find any other users for the Mk 5As, it might offer Chiltern a deal it can't refuse. It already provides
the class 68 locos.

I suppose, in the end, the DfT gets to decide, and post-Stonehaven crash-worthiness concerns about the elderly Mk 3s
might swing it.

>
>I think the 16x are leased, so maybe Mk5s would have comparable costs when
>swapped in for them, I don't know. Or purely as a fleet expansion.

It's normally reckoned that the break-even between DMUs and LCHS is 5-cars. So, if the Mk 5As run in, say, 6-car or
7-car rakes, they should work out cheaper than 168s. They could take over most of the longer routes that need longer
trains (ie, Oxford and Brum), freeing up 168s for shorter routes. I don't know how long the 165s will keep running
(they're over 30 years old, and may need retractioning to keep in service).

In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>> From
>>
>>https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>2022-23.pdf
>
>Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!

Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in the
depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen for
years.

>Trans Pennine will presumably get older now they are withdrawing the
>new-ish Nova 3 sets.

--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 11:23:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>> From
>>>
>>>https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>2022-23.pdf
>>
>>Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>
>Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in the
>depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen for
>years.

Huh? They were running in service more than six years ago.

On 21.10.23 12:23, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>  From
>>>
>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>
>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>
> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in the
> depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen for
> years.

The class 345s operated Shenfield-Liverpool St from 2017 and
Paddington-Reading from 2019, they have certainly not been sitting idle.

Robin

In message <uh0htt$1osnu$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:36 on Sat, 21 Oct
2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>On 21.10.23 12:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>  From
>>>>
>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>
>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!

>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in
>>the depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen
>>for years.
>
>The class 345s operated Shenfield-Liverpool St from 2017 and
>Paddington-Reading from 2019, they have certainly not

all

>been sitting idle.

But a lot of them were.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sfb7ji15rti44qr7etbumvg87nv1hg6na4@4ax.com>, at 11:55:51 on
Sat, 21 Oct 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 11:23:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:

>>>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>> From
>>>>
>>>>https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>2022-23.pdf
>>>
>>>Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>
>>Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in the
>>depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen for
>>years.
>
>Huh? They were running in service more than six years ago.

Some might have been, but the majority were waiting for the core and the
Heathrow/Ebbsfleet spurs to be commissioned. July 2020 and May 2022
respectively.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uh0htt$1osnu$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:36 on Sat, 21 Oct
> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 21.10.23 12:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>  From
>>>>>
>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>
>>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in
>>> the depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen
>>> for years.
>>
>> The class 345s operated Shenfield-Liverpool St from 2017 and
>> Paddington-Reading from 2019, they have certainly not
>
> all
>
>> been sitting idle.
>
> But a lot of them were.

You think they were all delivered as 9-car units on day one?

And do you really think a lot of units actually sat idle for several years?

They were actually put into service more speedily than most other Aventra
fleets.

On 21.10.23 17:47, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sfb7ji15rti44qr7etbumvg87nv1hg6na4@4ax.com>, at 11:55:51 on
> Sat, 21 Oct 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 11:23:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>
>>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>  From
>>>>>
>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>>
>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>>
>>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in the
>>> depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen for
>>> years.
>>
>> Huh?  They were running in service more than six years ago.
>
> Some might have been, but the majority were waiting for the core and the
> Heathrow/Ebbsfleet spurs to be commissioned. July 2020 and May 2022
> respectively.

They'll struggle to get to Ebbsfleet as they have neither 3rd rail
electrical equipment nor TVM-430 signalling equipment.

Robin

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 16:19:22 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uh0htt$1osnu$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:36 on Sat, 21 Oct
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 21.10.23 12:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>>  From
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>
>>>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in
>>>> the depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen
>>>> for years.
>>>
>>> The class 345s operated Shenfield-Liverpool St from 2017 and
>>> Paddington-Reading from 2019, they have certainly not
>>
>> all
>>
>>> been sitting idle.
>>
>> But a lot of them were.
>
>You think they were all delivered as 9-car units on day one?
>
>And do you really think a lot of units actually sat idle for several years?
>
>They were actually put into service more speedily than most other Aventra
>fleets.
>
There were plenty of them parked in various places around Willesden
for months.

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 16:47:31 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <sfb7ji15rti44qr7etbumvg87nv1hg6na4@4ax.com>, at 11:55:51 on
>Sat, 21 Oct 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 11:23:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>>2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>
>>>>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>> From
>>>>>
>>>>>https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>>2022-23.pdf
>>>>
>>>>Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>>
>>>Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in the
>>>depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen for
>>>years.
>>
>>Huh? They were running in service more than six years ago.
>
>Some might have been, but the majority were waiting for the core and the
>Heathrow/Ebbsfleet spurs to be commissioned. July 2020 and May 2022
>respectively.

You obviously know much more about the Elizabeth Line than I do. Please could you provide some information about the
secret Ebbsfleet spur which apparently opened last year, which I thought was just an item on a wish list.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 16:19:22 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uh0htt$1osnu$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:36 on Sat, 21 Oct
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 21.10.23 12:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>>>  From
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>>
>>>>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in
>>>>> the depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen
>>>>> for years.
>>>>
>>>> The class 345s operated Shenfield-Liverpool St from 2017 and
>>>> Paddington-Reading from 2019, they have certainly not
>>>
>>> all
>>>
>>>> been sitting idle.
>>>
>>> But a lot of them were.
>>
>> You think they were all delivered as 9-car units on day one?
>>
>> And do you really think a lot of units actually sat idle for several years?
>>
>> They were actually put into service more speedily than most other Aventra
>> fleets.
>>
> There were plenty of them parked in various places around Willesden
> for months.
>

I wonder how many class 701s have been parked in various places around
England for more than a few months? And how many 720s were parked for over
a year before entering service?

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 18:58:35 +0200
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 21.10.23 17:47, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sfb7ji15rti44qr7etbumvg87nv1hg6na4@4ax.com>, at 11:55:51 on
>> Sat, 21 Oct 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 11:23:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>
>>>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>>  From
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>>>
>>>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in the
>>>> depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen for
>>>> years.
>>>
>>> Huh?  They were running in service more than six years ago.
>>
>> Some might have been, but the majority were waiting for the core and the
>> Heathrow/Ebbsfleet spurs to be commissioned. July 2020 and May 2022
>> respectively.
>
>They'll struggle to get to Ebbsfleet as they have neither 3rd rail
>electrical equipment nor TVM-430 signalling equipment.

If the EL doesn't eventually go further than Abbey Wood I wonder if they'll
retrofit (some of) the fleet with 3rd rail or extend the overhead? I imagine
the former would be a lot cheaper and less hassle but perhaps OTOH a 25KV link
across london would be useful.

In message <uh0tm9$1rgc8$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:19:22 on Sat, 21 Oct
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uh0htt$1osnu$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:36 on Sat, 21 Oct
>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 21.10.23 12:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>>  From
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>
>>>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in
>>>> the depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen
>>>> for years.
>>>
>>> The class 345s operated Shenfield-Liverpool St from 2017 and
>>> Paddington-Reading from 2019, they have certainly not
>>
>> all
>>
>>> been sitting idle.
>>
>> But a lot of them were.
>
>You think they were all delivered as 9-car units on day one?

No.

>And do you really think a lot of units actually sat idle for several years?

Yes.

>They were actually put into service more speedily than most other Aventra
>fleets.

"You should see the other guy" is never a very convincing epitaph.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uh0tm9$1rgc8$5@dont-email.me>, at 16:19:22 on Sat, 21 Oct
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uh0htt$1osnu$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:36 on Sat, 21 Oct
>>> 2023, Bob <bob@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 21.10.23 12:23, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>>>  From
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>>
>>>>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in
>>>>> the depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen
>>>>> for years.
>>>>
>>>> The class 345s operated Shenfield-Liverpool St from 2017 and
>>>> Paddington-Reading from 2019, they have certainly not
>>>
>>> all
>>>
>>>> been sitting idle.
>>>
>>> But a lot of them were.
>>
>> You think they were all delivered as 9-car units on day one?
>
> No.
>
>> And do you really think a lot of units actually sat idle for several years?
>
> Yes.
>
>> They were actually put into service more speedily than most other Aventra
>> fleets.
>
> "You should see the other guy" is never a very convincing epitaph.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to give us your analysis of the multi-year
delays getting the 720s into service on GA? Why did they take so much
longer than the first Aventra fleet?

On 22.10.23 09:35, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 18:58:35 +0200
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 21.10.23 17:47, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sfb7ji15rti44qr7etbumvg87nv1hg6na4@4ax.com>, at 11:55:51 on
>>> Sat, 21 Oct 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 11:23:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>>>  From
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>>>>
>>>>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in the
>>>>> depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen for
>>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>> Huh?  They were running in service more than six years ago.
>>>
>>> Some might have been, but the majority were waiting for the core and the
>>> Heathrow/Ebbsfleet spurs to be commissioned. July 2020 and May 2022
>>> respectively.
>>
>> They'll struggle to get to Ebbsfleet as they have neither 3rd rail
>> electrical equipment nor TVM-430 signalling equipment.
>
> If the EL doesn't eventually go further than Abbey Wood I wonder if they'll
> retrofit (some of) the fleet with 3rd rail or extend the overhead? I imagine
> the former would be a lot cheaper and less hassle but perhaps OTOH a 25KV link
> across london would be useful.

The challenge with running beyond Abbey Wood is capacity particularly
around Dartford. The three suburban routes, one of which is also used by
Thameslink, all funnel into three tracks into Datrford station, as well
as the Crayford-Slade Green looping services crossing on two flat
junctions at the triangle west of Dartford. Realistically, to extend the
Elizabeth line east from Abbey Wood would likely mean new tracks at
least as far as Dartford, in which case having dedicated 25 kV lines for
the EL service, fully segregated from the old lines, would probably be
the choice.

Robin

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 07:35:04 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 18:58:35 +0200
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>On 21.10.23 17:47, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <sfb7ji15rti44qr7etbumvg87nv1hg6na4@4ax.com>, at 11:55:51 on
>>> Sat, 21 Oct 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 11:23:57 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ugr24p$a3q5$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:58:33 on Thu, 19 Oct
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 19/10/2023 11:49, Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>  https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8yheg6XAAA-_LG?format=jpg&name=medium
>>>>>>>  From
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/g3xjpk2p/infrastructure-and-assets-
>>>>>>> 2022-23.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elizabeth line stock already over 6 years old, how time flies!
>>>>>
>>>>> Bear in mind the tunnels were very late, and so the trains sat in the
>>>>> depots for years, and the drivers they'd hired sat in the canteen for
>>>>> years.
>>>>
>>>> Huh?  They were running in service more than six years ago.
>>>
>>> Some might have been, but the majority were waiting for the core and the
>>> Heathrow/Ebbsfleet spurs to be commissioned. July 2020 and May 2022
>>> respectively.
>>
>>They'll struggle to get to Ebbsfleet as they have neither 3rd rail
>>electrical equipment nor TVM-430 signalling equipment.
>
>If the EL doesn't eventually go further than Abbey Wood I wonder if they'll
>retrofit (some of) the fleet with 3rd rail or extend the overhead? I imagine
>the former would be a lot cheaper and less hassle but perhaps OTOH a 25KV link
>across london would be useful.

I don't think there's any appetite or budget for extending the EL beyond Abbey Wood. What much more likely to happen in
that area is a DLR extension from Beckton to Thamesmead, and possibly to Abbey Wood.

Where an EL extension would make more sense is in the west, where the Paddington reversers could be extended to the
Chiltern Line or WCML. They could take over services to Aylesbury or stoppers on the WCML. But, while there's some logic
in that, it's highly unlikely that there will be any budget for it.