A long version of the installation is in my recent thread
" Turning radiator off/down - no thermostat valve"

Simply, Baxi 105 HE Combi installed at the end of a utility room
extension.

11 radiators in a bungalow, all but two have TRVs.

Intending to just about fully turn off the radiator in the hall which
has no TRV and is mainly heating empty space.

Not practical to wire thermostat to boiler so wireless needed.

If going this far would probably want to control by day/hr easily but
do not need zoning as TRV's should handle this.

I have a BT hub/router with ethernet outlets but it is not convenient
to run ethernet cabling any distance though it is on a small cabinet
which can hold a couple of devices.

At the moment I am looking at:

1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).

As door is opened the rad is to the right and the sink unit to the
left. Thermostat to go behind the door and to the left of sink unit

Boiler is ~20m and a couple of walls away from bathroom.

2) Getting
https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container

Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
but untidy.

In the future I might want remote access but at the moment it will be
a massive improvement on my current procedure of setting the timer
clock and temperature controls manually.

What can go wrong? Or am I on the right track?

PS Instructions as to where to fit the controller are on the boiler
control panel and the 240v input/output which are currently
interconnected will go through the controller.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:

> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).

Why?

You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
watching TV etc.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Also I think in today's world you need to make sure both devices can use the
5gig band, as interference on the lower one is very likely.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jo1iffFlnikU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>
> Why?
>
> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
> watching TV etc.
>
>
> --
> mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk
>
>

AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
> A long version of the installation is in my recent thread
> " Turning radiator off/down - no thermostat valve"
>
> Simply, Baxi 105 HE Combi installed at the end of a utility room
> extension.
>
> 11 radiators in a bungalow, all but two have TRVs.
>
> Intending to just about fully turn off the radiator in the hall which
> has no TRV and is mainly heating empty space.
>
> Not practical to wire thermostat to boiler so wireless needed.
>
> If going this far would probably want to control by day/hr easily but
> do not need zoning as TRV's should handle this.
>
> I have a BT hub/router with ethernet outlets but it is not convenient
> to run ethernet cabling any distance though it is on a small cabinet
> which can hold a couple of devices.
>
> At the moment I am looking at:
>
> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>
> As door is opened the rad is to the right and the sink unit to the
> left. Thermostat to go behind the door and to the left of sink unit
>
> Boiler is ~20m and a couple of walls away from bathroom.
>
> 2) Getting
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>
> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
> but untidy.
>
> In the future I might want remote access but at the moment it will be
> a massive improvement on my current procedure of setting the timer
> clock and temperature controls manually.
>
>
> What can go wrong? Or am I on the right track?
>
> PS Instructions as to where to fit the controller are on the boiler
> control panel and the 240v input/output which are currently
> interconnected will go through the controller.
>
>

I’d recommend the Hive system. It isn’t the cheapest but it is established,
the user interface is very good. I find the remote access excellent.

If your existing controller uses an MK14 back plate ( the plate the
controller clips to), installation is very easy - you may not need any
wiring changes.

We already had normal TRVs so I didn’t change to hive ones - especially as
we don’t use some rooms and just set them low.

I used the data from the Hive app to adjust the on/off times for the
heating. I was surprised how early in the evening I could set the heating
to turn of yet maintain the room temp, although the house is well
insulated.

On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>
>Why?
>
>You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>watching TV etc.
>
>

The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container

states:

"The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
that�s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
permanently on."

The bathroom is the only such space.

Is that guidance wrong?

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 10/09/2022 09:10, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>> watching TV etc.
>>
>>
>
> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>
> states:
>
>
> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
> permanently on."
>
> The bathroom is the only such space.
>
> Is that guidance wrong?
>
>

On a new system you would select the optimum place for the thermostat
(possibly you main living room) and not fit a TVR in that room. The
bathroom may not have had a TVR as a safety mechanism - somewhere for
the pump to push the water when all the TVRs in the system shut off.

Just because your bathroom is currently the only room without a TVR it
doesn't mean that it is the best place for the room thermostat. I doubt
if anyone reading this has the room thermostat in their bathroom - for
good reason.

The advice is correct in that the room heat should not be controlled by
both the room thermostat and a TVR BUT you are possibly drawing the
wrong conclusion about locating the room thermostat. Fit the thermostat,
say, in your main living room and replace the the TRV with a normal
lockshield valve. Rather than removing the TVR you could just unscrew
the TVR head which leaves the valve fully open (just make sure that the
valve controlling pin that you can see when the head is removed is free
to move and not stuck - it will be stiff so just lay the flat of a
spanner or body of a pair of pliers on the pin and press down fairly
hard and release. The pin should remain in the fully up position)).

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CWYKUAb-Acg

The valve with the head removed may not look cosmetically good but it
will do the same job, in this instance, as a replacement lockshield
valve. If you have a decorators cap for the TVR you could drill a small
hole in the top of so it doesn't depress the pin and then use this
modified cap to give a good cosmetic appearance.

See
https://youtu.be/_d5-OzlOah0?t=153

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 10:07:36 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 10/09/2022 09:10, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>>> watching TV etc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
>> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>>
>> states:
>>
>>
>> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
>> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
>> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
>> permanently on."
>>
>> The bathroom is the only such space.
>>
>> Is that guidance wrong?
>>
>>
>
>On a new system you would select the optimum place for the thermostat
>(possibly you main living room) and not fit a TVR in that room. The
>bathroom may not have had a TVR as a safety mechanism - somewhere for
>the pump to push the water when all the TVRs in the system shut off.
>
>
>Just because your bathroom is currently the only room without a TVR it
>doesn't mean that it is the best place for the room thermostat. I doubt
>if anyone reading this has the room thermostat in their bathroom - for
>good reason.
>
>The advice is correct in that the room heat should not be controlled by
>both the room thermostat and a TVR BUT you are possibly drawing the
>wrong conclusion about locating the room thermostat. Fit the thermostat,
>say, in your main living room and replace the the TRV with a normal
>lockshield valve. Rather than removing the TVR you could just unscrew
>the TVR head which leaves the valve fully open (just make sure that the
>valve controlling pin that you can see when the head is removed is free
>to move and not stuck - it will be stiff so just lay the flat of a
>spanner or body of a pair of pliers on the pin and press down fairly
>hard and release. The pin should remain in the fully up position)).
>
>https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CWYKUAb-Acg
>
>The valve with the head removed may not look cosmetically good but it
>will do the same job, in this instance, as a replacement lockshield
>valve. If you have a decorators cap for the TVR you could drill a small
>hole in the top of so it doesn't depress the pin and then use this
>modified cap to give a good cosmetic appearance.
>
>See
>https://youtu.be/_d5-OzlOah0?t=153
>

The main living room, which is a large "L" shaped lounge + dining, has
3 radiators.

But are you in effect saying that the thermostat is acting as the TRV,
ie effectively replacing it? That makes sense I guess.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 10/09/2022 09:10, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>> watching TV etc.
>>
>>
>
> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>
> states:
>
>
> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
> permanently on."
>
> The bathroom is the only such space.
>
> Is that guidance wrong?
>
>
No, its rules for fools, and guidance for wise men.

The point is not to have to call for heat in a room in which someone has
shut the radiator off.

Just consider what will happen in a room with a radiator thermostat set
for 15°C and the radio stat is set to 19°C.

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 12:43:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 10/09/2022 09:10, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>>> watching TV etc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
>> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>>
>> states:
>>
>>
>> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
>> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
>> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
>> permanently on."
>>
>> The bathroom is the only such space.
>>
>> Is that guidance wrong?
>>
>>
>No, its rules for fools, and guidance for wise men.
>
>The point is not to have to call for heat in a room in which someone has
>shut the radiator off.
>
>Just consider what will happen in a room with a radiator thermostat set
>for 15°C and the radio stat is set to 19°C.
>

Ah - the lounge is the room that will always have rad stats on max :)

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 10/09/2022 13:31, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 12:43:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 10/09/2022 09:10, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>>>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>>>> watching TV etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
>>> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>>>
>>> states:
>>>
>>>
>>> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
>>> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
>>> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
>>> permanently on."
>>>
>>> The bathroom is the only such space.
>>>
>>> Is that guidance wrong?
>>>
>>>
>> No, its rules for fools, and guidance for wise men.
>>
>> The point is not to have to call for heat in a room in which someone has
>> shut the radiator off.
>>
>> Just consider what will happen in a room with a radiator thermostat set
>> for 15°C and the radio stat is set to 19°C.
>>
>
> Ah - the lounge is the room that will always have rad stats on max :)
>
That will work.

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

On 10/09/2022 14:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/09/2022 13:31, AnthonyL wrote:

>>
>> Ah - the lounge is the room that will always have rad stats on max :)
>>
> That will work.
>
Might not:-;

I once attended a call out where the customer placed the wireless stat
on the radiator......

But yes it should work. If the TRVs are fully open then the stat should
do it's job.

AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>> watching TV etc.
>>
>>
>
> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>
> states:
>
>
> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
> permanently on."
>
> The bathroom is the only such space.
>
> Is that guidance wrong?
>
>

Sounds right to me.

We have the thermostat in the hall, the rads there don’t have TRVs.

Originally, the thermostat was in the sitting room and we didn’t have TRVs
or Hive.

Having a thermostat in a hall is quite common.

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 15:01:07 +0100, ARW
<adamwadsworth@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>On 10/09/2022 14:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 10/09/2022 13:31, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Ah - the lounge is the room that will always have rad stats on max :)
>>>
>> That will work.
>>
>Might not:-;
>
>I once attended a call out where the customer placed the wireless stat
>on the radiator......
>

I'm a bit new to all this new fangled stuff but ....

>But yes it should work. If the TRVs are fully open then the stat should
>do it's job.

I think I'm get it.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 14:20:38 -0000 (UTC), Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:

>AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>>> watching TV etc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
>> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>>
>> states:
>>
>>
>> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
>> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
>> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
>> permanently on."
>>
>> The bathroom is the only such space.
>>
>> Is that guidance wrong?
>>
>>
>
>Sounds right to me.
>
>We have the thermostat in the hall, the rads there don’t have TRVs.
>
>Originally, the thermostat was in the sitting room and we didn’t have TRVs
>or Hive.
>
>Having a thermostat in a hall is quite common.
>

That would have been the natural choice for me except I've now decided
that heating the hall, which is a full room size, is an extravagance
with costs going up the way they are. This whole exercise started
(see other thread) with my conclusion that the hall radiator, which
has no valves, needs to be switched off.

The main downside is the change in temperature traversing from front
of house (living quarters) to back of house (sleeping quarters and
study).

Just need to be disciplined in keeping doors shut.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 14:20:38 -0000 (UTC), Brian <noinv@lid.org> wrote:
>
>> AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>>>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>>>> watching TV etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
>>> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>>>
>>> states:
>>>
>>>
>>> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
>>> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
>>> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
>>> permanently on."
>>>
>>> The bathroom is the only such space.
>>>
>>> Is that guidance wrong?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sounds right to me.
>>
>> We have the thermostat in the hall, the rads there don’t have TRVs.
>>
>> Originally, the thermostat was in the sitting room and we didn’t have TRVs
>> or Hive.
>>
>> Having a thermostat in a hall is quite common.
>>
>
> That would have been the natural choice for me except I've now decided
> that heating the hall, which is a full room size, is an extravagance
> with costs going up the way they are. This whole exercise started
> (see other thread) with my conclusion that the hall radiator, which
> has no valves, needs to be switched off.
>
> The main downside is the change in temperature traversing from front
> of house (living quarters) to back of house (sleeping quarters and
> study).
>
> Just need to be disciplined in keeping doors shut.
>
>

I suspect that, with, Smart TRVs, you could ( for example) avoid heating
the bedrooms during the day (assuming they are unused), give them a burst
in the evening and morning ( if that is what you like), and apply a similar
approach in other rooms where the use is predictable. The problem is where
to put the thermostat - it shouldn’t be in a room with TRVs ideally. I
don’t think it is a hard and fast rule - you may be able to make it work by
‘clever’ programming of the TRVs.

On 10/09/2022 17:29, AnthonyL wrote:

>
> That would have been the natural choice for me except I've now decided
> that heating the hall, which is a full room size, is an extravagance
> with costs going up the way they are.

The advantage of having a wireless thermostat is that you can move the
transmitter around and you can experiment with it in the hall or in your
living room.

Where people place the thermostat may depend on how many people in the
house and how many rooms being used a lot of time for living. If there
are only one or two of you and normally spend most of your leisure time
in one room then that is possibly the ideal location. In my house one
room is heated to an elevated temperature (20 to 22C) and the rest of
the house controlled by TVRs and kept to maybe 16 to 18C (bedrooms a bit
cooler)

This whole exercise started
> (see other thread) with my conclusion that the hall radiator, which
> has no valves, needs to be switched off.

Pedant mode: it will have two values but probably require a spanner to
close them one of them to the off position.

>
> The main downside is the change in temperature traversing from front
> of house (living quarters) to back of house (sleeping quarters and
> study).
>
> Just need to be disciplined in keeping doors shut.

Yes, this is probably the way to cut costs. Definitely close doors to
rooms that you don't use much. Close the door in the room where you need
keep in most heat.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 10/09/2022 10:07, alan_m wrote:
> On 10/09/2022 09:10, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>
>>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>>> watching TV etc.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
>> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>>
>> states:
>>
>>
>> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
>> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
>> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
>> permanently on."
>>
>> The bathroom is the only such space.
>>
>> Is that guidance wrong?
>>
>>
>
> On a new system you would select the optimum place for the thermostat
> (possibly you main living room) and not fit a TVR in that room. The
> bathroom may not have had a TVR as a safety mechanism - somewhere for
> the pump to push the water when all the TVRs in the system shut off.
>
>
> Just because your bathroom is currently the only room without a TVR it
> doesn't mean that it is the best place for the room thermostat.  I doubt
> if anyone reading this has the room thermostat in their bathroom - for
> good reason.
>
> The advice is correct in that the room heat should not be controlled by
> both the room thermostat and a TVR BUT you are possibly drawing the
> wrong conclusion about locating the room thermostat. Fit the thermostat,
> say, in your main living room and replace the the TRV with a normal
> lockshield valve.

I'd not put the thermostat in the living room - normally it'd go in the
hall, so that it can control the temperature without interference, say
from people turning a fire on.

In my own house, I have a thermostat and a motorised valve for each
room, so it doesn't matter if someone puts a fire on; the sun happens to
be shining on that side of the house; we're cooking, etc. Each room will
get up to the temperature set for that room, at that time of day, and
then shut off, unless it cools again. None of the other rooms are affected.

On 10/09/2022 12:02, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2022 10:07:36 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/09/2022 09:10, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Fri, 9 Sep 2022 20:28:47 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> You need the thermostat to make where you occupy most most comfortable.
>>>> Personally I have my thermostat in the room used every evening for
>>>> watching TV etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The manual for the device I'd linked to (ref
>>> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>>>
>>> states:
>>>
>>>
>>> "The thermostat should not be installed in the same room as a radiator
>>> that’s controlled by a thermostatic radiator valve (TRV). Installing
>>> the two in the same room may result in the central heating being
>>> permanently on."
>>>
>>> The bathroom is the only such space.
>>>
>>> Is that guidance wrong?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> On a new system you would select the optimum place for the thermostat
>> (possibly you main living room) and not fit a TVR in that room. The
>> bathroom may not have had a TVR as a safety mechanism - somewhere for
>> the pump to push the water when all the TVRs in the system shut off.
>>
>>
>> Just because your bathroom is currently the only room without a TVR it
>> doesn't mean that it is the best place for the room thermostat. I doubt
>> if anyone reading this has the room thermostat in their bathroom - for
>> good reason.
>>
>> The advice is correct in that the room heat should not be controlled by
>> both the room thermostat and a TVR BUT you are possibly drawing the
>> wrong conclusion about locating the room thermostat. Fit the thermostat,
>> say, in your main living room and replace the the TRV with a normal
>> lockshield valve. Rather than removing the TVR you could just unscrew
>> the TVR head which leaves the valve fully open (just make sure that the
>> valve controlling pin that you can see when the head is removed is free
>> to move and not stuck - it will be stiff so just lay the flat of a
>> spanner or body of a pair of pliers on the pin and press down fairly
>> hard and release. The pin should remain in the fully up position)).
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CWYKUAb-Acg
>>
>> The valve with the head removed may not look cosmetically good but it
>> will do the same job, in this instance, as a replacement lockshield
>> valve. If you have a decorators cap for the TVR you could drill a small
>> hole in the top of so it doesn't depress the pin and then use this
>> modified cap to give a good cosmetic appearance.
>>
>> See
>> https://youtu.be/_d5-OzlOah0?t=153
>>
>
> The main living room, which is a large "L" shaped lounge + dining, has
> 3 radiators.

So in that case you would set all three TRVs to max temp, or remove
their heads.

> But are you in effect saying that the thermostat is acting as the TRV,
> ie effectively replacing it? That makes sense I guess.

It replaces it, in the sense that when the room reaches your preferred
temp it will turn off the heat. The difference is that it will do it for
all of the heating, and not just that room.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
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\=================================================================/

On 10/09/2022 19:02, alan_m wrote:
> On 10/09/2022 17:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>>
>> That would have been the natural choice for me except I've now decided
>> that heating the hall, which is a full room size, is an extravagance
>> with costs going up the way they are.
>
> The advantage of having a wireless thermostat is that you can move the
> transmitter around and you can experiment with it in the hall or in your
> living room.
>
> Where people place the thermostat may depend on how many people in the
> house and how many rooms being used a lot of time for living. If there
> are only one or two of you and normally spend most of your leisure time
> in one room then that is possibly the ideal location.  In my house one
> room is heated to an elevated temperature (20 to 22C) and the rest of
> the house controlled by TVRs and kept to maybe 16 to 18C (bedrooms a bit
> cooler)
>
>  This whole exercise started
>> (see other thread) with my conclusion that the hall radiator, which
>> has no valves, needs to be switched off.
>
> Pedant mode: it will have two values but probably require a spanner to
> close them one of them to the off position.
>
>
>>
>> The main downside is the change in temperature traversing from front
>> of house (living quarters) to back of house (sleeping quarters and
>> study).
>>
>> Just need to be disciplined in keeping doors shut.
>
> Yes, this is probably the way to cut costs. Definitely close doors to
> rooms that you don't use much. Close the door in the room where you need
> keep in most heat.

Yup if you have a room that is not used, turn down its TRV and shut the
door on it. It will stay cooler / cold compared to the rest of the house.

--
Cheers,

John.

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\=================================================================/

AnthonyL <nospam@please.invalid> wrote:
> A long version of the installation is in my recent thread
> " Turning radiator off/down - no thermostat valve"
>
> Simply, Baxi 105 HE Combi installed at the end of a utility room
> extension.
>
> 11 radiators in a bungalow, all but two have TRVs.
>
> Intending to just about fully turn off the radiator in the hall which
> has no TRV and is mainly heating empty space.
>
> Not practical to wire thermostat to boiler so wireless needed.
>
> If going this far would probably want to control by day/hr easily but
> do not need zoning as TRV's should handle this.
>
> I have a BT hub/router with ethernet outlets but it is not convenient
> to run ethernet cabling any distance though it is on a small cabinet
> which can hold a couple of devices.
>
> At the moment I am looking at:
>
> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>
> As door is opened the rad is to the right and the sink unit to the
> left. Thermostat to go behind the door and to the left of sink unit
>
> Boiler is ~20m and a couple of walls away from bathroom.
>
> 2) Getting
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>
> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
> but untidy.
>
> In the future I might want remote access but at the moment it will be
> a massive improvement on my current procedure of setting the timer
> clock and temperature controls manually.
>
>
> What can go wrong? Or am I on the right track?
>
> PS Instructions as to where to fit the controller are on the boiler
> control panel and the 240v input/output which are currently
> interconnected will go through the controller.
>
>

I have the Hive system and have the Hive thermostats on all radiators
except the bathroom which is the official bypass for the CH system. Despite
the advice not to install the thermostat in a room with a TRV the
thermostat is in the lounge which has a single TRV controlled radiator, I
have found no issues with the setup. The smart TRVs are not like normal
TRVs in that they can operate heat on demand. So if the lounge TRV demands
heat it overrides any setting on the main thermostat, likewise if the TRV
senses the temperature is adequate it will shut off the radiator immaterial
of the main thermostat settings. The beauty of the smart TRVs is you can
literally heat as many rooms as required or simply one room.

There are other smart systems that do a similar thing, I am quite pleased
with the Hive system.

Richard

On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
> A long version of the installation is in my recent thread
> " Turning radiator off/down - no thermostat valve"
>
> Simply, Baxi 105 HE Combi installed at the end of a utility room
> extension.
>
> 11 radiators in a bungalow, all but two have TRVs.
>
> Intending to just about fully turn off the radiator in the hall which
> has no TRV and is mainly heating empty space.
>
> Not practical to wire thermostat to boiler so wireless needed.
>
> If going this far would probably want to control by day/hr easily but

Most stats will be programmable some some extent - allowing different at
least the choice of a normal and a "set back" temperature to be invoked
for different time slots. Some may allow different temps for each time
slot.

> do not need zoning as TRV's should handle this.

TRVs can do some of what zoning achieves, but they can't usually select
different heating times for different zones.

(for example I have an upstairs zone and a downstairs one (bedrooms and
living space if you prefer). In the morning the bedrooms get heated
before the downstairs, but the downstairs, will carry on being heated
after the bedrooms are no longer heated).

> I have a BT hub/router with ethernet outlets but it is not convenient
> to run ethernet cabling any distance though it is on a small cabinet
> which can hold a couple of devices.

If you are using the hive hub (that is the bit that makes the stat
"internet connected" - and enables the "smart" facilities, then that is
usually hard wired to the router. However it can be right next to it. It
is not wired to anything else, and uses zigbee wireless protocols to
talk to the hive stat (and the stat uses the same to talk to the receiver).

Note you don't need the hub at all if you don't want the smart
capabilities (like being able to control the heating from your phone, or
integrate with voice assistants to tell them to turn the heating up or
down vocally. Without the hub it will just behave as a bog standard
wireless stat.

> At the moment I am looking at:
>
> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).

Almost certainly not the best place for it. (Unless you spend all your
time in there!)

(discussed elsewhere in this thread)

> As door is opened the rad is to the right and the sink unit to the
> left. Thermostat to go behind the door and to the left of sink unit
>
> Boiler is ~20m and a couple of walls away from bathroom.
>
> 2) Getting
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>

That looks like the version without the hub. So no smart integration,
but also no internet connection required.

> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
> but untidy.

It can go anywhere you like - it does not need to be on show. It will
have a mains connection, and a wire to the call for heat input on the
boiler.

> In the future I might want remote access but at the moment it will be
> a massive improvement on my current procedure of setting the timer
> clock and temperature controls manually.

Yup it will let you set the times and room temps. Note that it will not
control the boiler flow temp - this would still be manual. To control
boiler flow temps automatically you need weather compensation.

For most users, setting a flow temp to "low ish" (where low ish will
depend on the size of the rads, the level of insulation etc) will be
adequate for most of the year. You may want to tweak it up a bit during
very cold spells if you find the heating can't get the house up to
temperature, or if it takes too long.

> What can go wrong? Or am I on the right track?

Sounds like you are on the right track.

> PS Instructions as to where to fit the controller are on the boiler
> control panel and the 240v input/output which are currently
> interconnected will go through the controller.

Looking at page 31 in the boiler manual:

https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/-/media/websites/baxiuk/files/discontinued-products/combi-boilers/baxi-combi/baxi_combi_105_installation_and_service_manual.pdf?la=en&hash=2D0AD0223DC5AADA00F9C57AAC53F69A025066DA

It shows pins 1 and 2 linked by a wire loop. 1 is basically a mains 230V
supply, and 2 is the "call for heat" input to the boiler. The boiler is
supplied with a wire link that joins these 2 pins, making the boiler see
a permanent "call for heat".

and page 10, "single channel wiring" in the receiver manual :

http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_1286226.pdf

So you could wire the receiver with just one length of three core flex
to connect it to the boiler - it would not need a separate mains
connection since it can draw its power from the boiler.

Remove the link wire between pins 1 and 2 on the boiler.
Wire the Neutral pin on the boiler to the N pin on the stat.
Wire pin 1 on the boiler to pin L on the stat
Wire pin 2 on the boiler to pin 3 on the stat

The boiler is then supplying a live and neutral connection to the stat,
and the stat is feeding back a switched live connection to the boilers
call for heat.

If using conventional 3 core flex with the normal Brown, Blue, and Earth
wiring colours, you can use the earth core for the switched live from
the stat (pin 3, on the stat, pin 2 on the boiler), but you should over
mark it with brown insulating tape at both ends to indicate it is
repurposed as a (switched) live and is not an earth connection.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 10/09/2022 19:02, alan_m wrote:
> On 10/09/2022 17:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>>
>> That would have been the natural choice for me except I've now decided
>> that heating the hall, which is a full room size, is an extravagance
>> with costs going up the way they are.
>
> The advantage of having a wireless thermostat is that you can move the
> transmitter around and you can experiment with it in the hall or in your
> living room.

> Where people place the thermostat may depend on how many people in the
> house and how many rooms being used a lot of time for living. If there
> are only one or two of you and normally spend most of your leisure time
> in one room then that is possibly the ideal location.  In my house one
> room is heated to an elevated temperature (20 to 22C) and the rest of
> the house controlled by TVRs and kept to maybe 16 to 18C (bedrooms a bit
> cooler)

And with a bit of discipline you can also move the thermostat around
whenever you want to change which room you is hotter. E.g. we usually
have ours in the living area downstairs but move it to upstairs to the
bedroom if someone is unwell. The discipline needed is, of course, to
fit/turn down the TRVs in the living area and up the TRVs in the bedroom.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 00:15:10 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 09/09/2022 19:47, AnthonyL wrote:
>> A long version of the installation is in my recent thread
>> " Turning radiator off/down - no thermostat valve"
>>
>> Simply, Baxi 105 HE Combi installed at the end of a utility room
>> extension.
>>
>> 11 radiators in a bungalow, all but two have TRVs.
>>
>> Intending to just about fully turn off the radiator in the hall which
>> has no TRV and is mainly heating empty space.
>>
>> Not practical to wire thermostat to boiler so wireless needed.
>>
>> If going this far would probably want to control by day/hr easily but
>
>Most stats will be programmable some some extent - allowing different at
>least the choice of a normal and a "set back" temperature to be invoked
>for different time slots. Some may allow different temps for each time
>slot.
>
>> do not need zoning as TRV's should handle this.
>
>TRVs can do some of what zoning achieves, but they can't usually select
>different heating times for different zones.
>
>(for example I have an upstairs zone and a downstairs one (bedrooms and
>living space if you prefer). In the morning the bedrooms get heated
>before the downstairs, but the downstairs, will carry on being heated
>after the bedrooms are no longer heated).
>
>> I have a BT hub/router with ethernet outlets but it is not convenient
>> to run ethernet cabling any distance though it is on a small cabinet
>> which can hold a couple of devices.
>
>If you are using the hive hub (that is the bit that makes the stat
>"internet connected" - and enables the "smart" facilities, then that is
>usually hard wired to the router. However it can be right next to it. It
>is not wired to anything else, and uses zigbee wireless protocols to
>talk to the hive stat (and the stat uses the same to talk to the receiver).
>
>Note you don't need the hub at all if you don't want the smart
>capabilities (like being able to control the heating from your phone, or
>integrate with voice assistants to tell them to turn the heating up or
>down vocally. Without the hub it will just behave as a bog standard
>wireless stat.
>
>> At the moment I am looking at:
>>
>> 1) Putting the thermostat in the bathroom (radiator has no valves).
>
>Almost certainly not the best place for it. (Unless you spend all your
>time in there!)
>
>(discussed elsewhere in this thread)
>
>> As door is opened the rad is to the right and the sink unit to the
>> left. Thermostat to go behind the door and to the left of sink unit
>>
>> Boiler is ~20m and a couple of walls away from bathroom.
>>
>> 2) Getting
>> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless/681pv#product_additional_details_container
>>
>
>That looks like the version without the hub. So no smart integration,
>but also no internet connection required.
>
>> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
>> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
>> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
>> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
>> but untidy.
>
>It can go anywhere you like - it does not need to be on show. It will
>have a mains connection, and a wire to the call for heat input on the
>boiler.
>

I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
signal.

>> In the future I might want remote access but at the moment it will be
>> a massive improvement on my current procedure of setting the timer
>> clock and temperature controls manually.
>
>Yup it will let you set the times and room temps. Note that it will not
>control the boiler flow temp - this would still be manual. To control
>boiler flow temps automatically you need weather compensation.
>

Am I correct in that I can add a Hive hub at some future date?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-hub/6516r

>For most users, setting a flow temp to "low ish" (where low ish will
>depend on the size of the rads, the level of insulation etc) will be
>adequate for most of the year. You may want to tweak it up a bit during
>very cold spells if you find the heating can't get the house up to
>temperature, or if it takes too long.
>

Thanks for that tip.

>> What can go wrong? Or am I on the right track?
>
>Sounds like you are on the right track.
>
>> PS Instructions as to where to fit the controller are on the boiler
>> control panel and the 240v input/output which are currently
>> interconnected will go through the controller.
>
>Looking at page 31 in the boiler manual:
>
>https://www.baxi.co.uk/our-boilers/-/media/websites/baxiuk/files/discontinued-products/combi-boilers/baxi-combi/baxi_combi_105_installation_and_service_manual.pdf?la=en&hash=2D0AD0223DC5AADA00F9C57AAC53F69A025066DA
>
>It shows pins 1 and 2 linked by a wire loop. 1 is basically a mains 230V
>supply, and 2 is the "call for heat" input to the boiler. The boiler is
>supplied with a wire link that joins these 2 pins, making the boiler see
>a permanent "call for heat".
>
>and page 10, "single channel wiring" in the receiver manual :
>
>http://www.free-instruction-manuals.com/pdf/pa_1286226.pdf
>
>So you could wire the receiver with just one length of three core flex
>to connect it to the boiler - it would not need a separate mains
>connection since it can draw its power from the boiler.
>
>Remove the link wire between pins 1 and 2 on the boiler.
>Wire the Neutral pin on the boiler to the N pin on the stat.
>Wire pin 1 on the boiler to pin L on the stat
>Wire pin 2 on the boiler to pin 3 on the stat
>

Yes, that's what's imprinted on the cover of the boiler control panel.

>The boiler is then supplying a live and neutral connection to the stat,
>and the stat is feeding back a switched live connection to the boilers
>call for heat.
>
>If using conventional 3 core flex with the normal Brown, Blue, and Earth
>wiring colours, you can use the earth core for the switched live from
>the stat (pin 3, on the stat, pin 2 on the boiler), but you should over
>mark it with brown insulating tape at both ends to indicate it is
>repurposed as a (switched) live and is not an earth connection.
>

Why wouldn't I simply use the live and neutral wires?

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 10/09/2022 21:58, SteveW wrote:

>
> In my own house, I have a thermostat and a motorised valve for each
> room, so it doesn't matter if someone puts a fire on; the sun happens to
> be shining on that side of the house; we're cooking, etc. Each room will
> get up to the temperature set for that room, at that time of day, and
> then shut off, unless it cools again. None of the other rooms are affected.
>

Obviously you do not have a cat and all doors are required to be left
open at all times and CH zones are irrelevant:-)

On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 00:15:10 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>>> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
>>> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
>>> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
>>> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
>>> but untidy.
>>
>> It can go anywhere you like - it does not need to be on show. It will
>> have a mains connection, and a wire to the call for heat input on the
>> boiler.
>>
>
> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
> signal.

The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.

The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.

>>> In the future I might want remote access but at the moment it will be
>>> a massive improvement on my current procedure of setting the timer
>>> clock and temperature controls manually.
>>
>> Yup it will let you set the times and room temps. Note that it will not
>> control the boiler flow temp - this would still be manual. To control
>> boiler flow temps automatically you need weather compensation.
>>
>
> Am I correct in that I can add a Hive hub at some future date?

Yup. If you are planning to get one soon, it might be cheaper to get it
with the stat as a "bundle".

>>> What can go wrong? Or am I on the right track?
>>
>> Sounds like you are on the right track.

>> Remove the link wire between pins 1 and 2 on the boiler.
>> Wire the Neutral pin on the boiler to the N pin on the stat.
>> Wire pin 1 on the boiler to pin L on the stat
>> Wire pin 2 on the boiler to pin 3 on the stat
>>
>
> Yes, that's what's imprinted on the cover of the boiler control panel.

good, that is reassuring.

>> If using conventional 3 core flex with the normal Brown, Blue, and Earth
>> wiring colours, you can use the earth core for the switched live from
>> the stat (pin 3, on the stat, pin 2 on the boiler), but you should over
>> mark it with brown insulating tape at both ends to indicate it is
>> repurposed as a (switched) live and is not an earth connection.
>>
>
> Why wouldn't I simply use the live and neutral wires?

You are using the Neutral. Using the live directly would certainly work,
although it is not the way they have suggested that you do it.

It might be that there are times where it can deactivate it's live out
to the stat on pin 1 (for example on boilers that have an integral timer).

Also the live on pin 1 on the boiler will be downstream of its 2A fuse.
Since the stat requires fusing at no more than 3A, that is an easy way
to ensure this. (the boiler supply is probably already fused at 3A
somewhere - but this way you avoid doubt)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/