"John Rumm" <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote in message
news:tghj5q$24f80$2@dont-email.me...
>>> The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>>> the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>>> enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>>> that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.

We have TPLink smart switches for turning off appliances that don't need to
stay on standby, and to monitor their power usage.

The one for the microwave is on a socket about 50 cm from the microwave.
Every time the oven is turned on, I notice the TPLink's wifi light starts to
blink, showing loss of sync with the router. As soon as the microwave stops,
the wifi light comes back on properly.

David Wade wrote:

>. so for me the best thing about Wiser is that it works. If I want a
>room warmer I can twiddle the top of the valve and it boosts the heat
>for an hour. If we are away I can set an "away mode". Of course not
>being young that means I forget to enable it before returning and come
>back to a cold house....

Looking at Amazon reviews for this kit, they are overwhelmingly
positive, but some of the 1 star comments show that they can be a
real pain if it all goes haywire.

<https://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B075GRPZQ1/ref=acr_dp_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star>

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:07:22 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 22/09/2022 11:26, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
>>>> signal.
>>>
>>> The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>>> the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>>> enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>>> that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.
>>>
>>> The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
>>> with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
>>> can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.
>>>
>>
>> I've received the Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1, and whilst deciding
>> how to finalise where the hub will finish I've wired it up
>> temporarily.
>>
>>>
>>>>> Remove the link wire between pins 1 and 2 on the boiler.
>>>>> Wire the Neutral pin on the boiler to the N pin on the stat.
>>>>> Wire pin 1 on the boiler to pin L on the stat
>>>>> Wire pin 2 on the boiler to pin 3 on the stat
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that's what's imprinted on the cover of the boiler control panel.
>>>
>>> good, that is reassuring.
>>>
>>
>> My temporary setup doesn't work. I run the App which says to press
>> once the Setup button, a green light is supposed to come on but
>> nothing happens.
>>
>> It's hard to see that I can have done anything wrong but then again.
>>
>> A photo of the connections is at:
>>
>> https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjA8aE8
>
>Does that two core flex just connect from the two terminals in the
>boiler to the two terminals on the hub?
>
>If so, then I would not expect it to work at all, since the stat
>terminals on the boiler will be one 240V output, and one 240V input. The
>stat is expected to either look like a switch - joining those two
>connections when it wants heat, or it can just act like like a selective
>mains supply - supplying 240V down one wire when it wants heat (i.e.
>that 240V does not *have* to be sourced from the other terminal).
>
>Neither of those terminals would look like a proper neutral. So the hub
>would probably not have power at all.
>
>> The notes I've written on the image can be read if zoomed in.
>>
>> Any clues? Faulty unit? Any other way to test it?
>Yup, Personally I would start without even involving the boiler by
>connecting the L & N on the backplate of the hub to a flex plugged into
>the mains with a 3A fuse in the plug. That should allow the hub to power
>up, and you can get it talking to the network, and then it can talk to
>the app.
>
>However if you want to do it with the boiler connected, then you need a
>three wire connection from the boiler to the hub. Basically L & N out to
>the stat, and then call for heat back from the stat to the boiler.
>
>So looking at that boiler connection:
>
>http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:BaxiStatConnector.png
>
>The N will need to come from the second connection down on the boiler -
>you can add your wire to either side of that chockie block style
>connector into the "Neutral Blue" terminal on the left, or the "b" on
>the right.
>
>The L could come from either the fused side of the top connection - i.e.
>the "br" terminal, or from the terminal labelled "1" on the connector.
>
>Lastly you need to connection from the hub (pin 3 probably) - the call
>for heat into the boiler - the one labelled 2
>

Doh!! I had quite misread/misinterpreted both you and the
instructions. Copy/pasting into a document and a legible size plus
your guidance and the system seems to be functioning. I only say
"seems" because it's on when I say boost or increase temperature but
it remains to be seen if the schedules etc work over a few days.

I now understand all the other wires that are obviously there for the
inbuilt boiler timer. I've left them there and put the timer "always
on" and at a high temp. I presume that's ok.

Read my response to Chris Dixon's earlier post regarding locating the
hub etc. Some positive news on that front too.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 19:56:02 +0100, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk>
wrote:

>AnthonyL wrote:
>
>>I may have fallen over at the first hurdle.
>>
>>I've just received delivery of:
>>
>>https://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/drayton-wiser-thermostat-kit-1---one-channel-heat-hub/
>>
>>Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1 - One Channel Heat Hub
>>
>>I may have mentioned that the boiler is right at the back of the
>>garage extension. The lounge is at the front of the property, and the
>>internet hub is in the hall the other side of the lounge, but still a
>>little way (another room, external wall) from the boiler.
>>
>>With my smartphone I do not get wireless connectivity from the boiler
>>room to the internet hub in the hall.
>
>I wonder if you could place the hub wherever is most convenient
>for its use, hopefully where there is also good wi-fi, and run
>what may be lengthy cables from there to the actual boiler.
>

Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
would have connected to the pantry controller.

With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.

So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.

Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

AnthonyL wrote:

>Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>would have connected to the pantry controller.
>
>With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>
>So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>
>Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.

Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.

Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On 22/09/2022 16:53, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:07:22 +0100, John Rumm

>> However if you want to do it with the boiler connected, then you need a
>> three wire connection from the boiler to the hub. Basically L & N out to
>> the stat, and then call for heat back from the stat to the boiler.
>>
>> So looking at that boiler connection:
>>
>> http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:BaxiStatConnector.png
>>
>> The N will need to come from the second connection down on the boiler -
>> you can add your wire to either side of that chockie block style
>> connector into the "Neutral Blue" terminal on the left, or the "b" on
>> the right.
>>
>> The L could come from either the fused side of the top connection - i.e.
>> the "br" terminal, or from the terminal labelled "1" on the connector.
>>
>> Lastly you need to connection from the hub (pin 3 probably) - the call
>> for heat into the boiler - the one labelled 2
>>
>
> Doh!! I had quite misread/misinterpreted both you and the
> instructions. Copy/pasting into a document and a legible size plus
> your guidance and the system seems to be functioning.

Good result, well done.

> I only say
> "seems" because it's on when I say boost or increase temperature but
> it remains to be seen if the schedules etc work over a few days.

Well if it was off at some point, and then fired at another, it would
suggest it has control over it in both directions. So that is pretty
reassuring.

> I now understand all the other wires that are obviously there for the
> inbuilt boiler timer. I've left them there and put the timer "always
> on" and at a high temp. I presume that's ok.

Yup, always on is fine. If the temp is the boiler flow temp, then you
can probably have that set fairly low (50 deg say) this time of year.

> Read my response to Chris Dixon's earlier post regarding locating the
> hub etc. Some positive news on that front too.

ok will do...

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 22/09/2022 20:49, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>> extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>> boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>> always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>> behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>> Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>> would have connected to the pantry controller.
>>
>> With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>>
>> So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>> and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>>
>> Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.
>
> Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.
>
> Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.

Yup, could make an interesting wiki page if Anthony does not mind
writing a few words.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 20:57:57 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 22/09/2022 16:53, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:07:22 +0100, John Rumm
>
>
>> I now understand all the other wires that are obviously there for the
>> inbuilt boiler timer. I've left them there and put the timer "always
>> on" and at a high temp. I presume that's ok.
>
>Yup, always on is fine. If the temp is the boiler flow temp, then you
>can probably have that set fairly low (50 deg say) this time of year.
>

Oh, that's the opposite to the way my brain was working. I thought
just leave it on high and let the stat control things and never touch
it again. Having said that I've just been to look and with the dial
at around the 2/3rds the temp got to 50degC. What am I aiming to
achieve here, smoothness ie longer periods on rather than overshoots
and lots of on/off cycles?

Lounge is set for 20degC till 2230. Probably wouldn't have had the
boiler on yet (usually try to wait to the end of September) but
obviously got to try the new setup. 15deg overnight, 19deg 0630-0830,
15deg 0830-1930. These are the app's default settings. Seems as if
I'm expected to have 30mins lie in over the weekend.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when I install the app on
SWMBO's smartphone. She would never go to adjust the boiler but I bet
there'll be a lot of Boost going on. The intention is to try and save
fuel but I now wonder if that's a bit optimistic. I'll need to find
the quick anti-Boost setting (Away Mode possibly). Investigations for
another day.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:25:28 +0000, AnthonyL wrote:

> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 20:57:57 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>>On 22/09/2022 16:53, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:07:22 +0100, John Rumm
>>
>>
>>> I now understand all the other wires that are obviously there for the
>>> inbuilt boiler timer. I've left them there and put the timer "always
>>> on" and at a high temp. I presume that's ok.
>>
>>Yup, always on is fine. If the temp is the boiler flow temp, then you
>>can probably have that set fairly low (50 deg say) this time of year.
>>
>>
> Oh, that's the opposite to the way my brain was working. I thought just
> leave it on high and let the stat control things and never touch it
> again.
> Having said that I've just been to look and with the dial at around the
> 2/3rds the temp got to 50degC. What am I aiming to achieve here,
> smoothness ie longer periods on rather than overshoots and lots of
> on/off cycles?

The higher the flow temp, potentially the more loss in the pipes too. I
was always told (by our CH guy) to keep it as low as possible consistent
with enough heating and hot water. Higher in winter.

I also believe that condensing boilers are more efficient at lower flow
temps, but I'll let someone else comment on that.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 22/09/2022 22:25, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 20:57:57 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 22/09/2022 16:53, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:07:22 +0100, John Rumm
>>
>>
>>> I now understand all the other wires that are obviously there for the
>>> inbuilt boiler timer. I've left them there and put the timer "always
>>> on" and at a high temp. I presume that's ok.
>>
>> Yup, always on is fine. If the temp is the boiler flow temp, then you
>> can probably have that set fairly low (50 deg say) this time of year.
>>
>
> Oh, that's the opposite to the way my brain was working. I thought
> just leave it on high and let the stat control things and never touch
> it again.

Well that would certainly work, however there are downsides in doing it
that way.

> Having said that I've just been to look and with the dial
> at around the 2/3rds the temp got to 50degC. What am I aiming to
> achieve here, smoothness ie longer periods on rather than overshoots
> and lots of on/off cycles?

You have a boiler that can modulate (i.e. vary its output power to match
the demand), and it is also a condensing boiler. So it will achieve
higher efficiencies with lower return water temperatures (since these
dictate how cool it can get the exhaust gases and in turn how much
latent heat it can extract from them).

So longer burns at lower power will mean:

Narrower temperature swings, and fewer overshoots. So more comfortable,
and less overheating.

Less clanking and clicking noise from expanding rads and pipework.

> Lounge is set for 20degC till 2230. Probably wouldn't have had the
> boiler on yet (usually try to wait to the end of September) but
> obviously got to try the new setup. 15deg overnight, 19deg 0630-0830,
> 15deg 0830-1930. These are the app's default settings. Seems as if
> I'm expected to have 30mins lie in over the weekend.

Yup a setback temp of 15 deg is quite common. In most properties that
means that the boiler is unlikely to fire at all at night. (depends a
bit on how fast the places loses heat)

> It'll be interesting to see what happens when I install the app on
> SWMBO's smartphone. She would never go to adjust the boiler but I bet
> there'll be a lot of Boost going on. The intention is to try and save
> fuel but I now wonder if that's a bit optimistic. I'll need to find
> the quick anti-Boost setting (Away Mode possibly). Investigations for
> another day.

:-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 23:02:42 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 22/09/2022 22:25, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 20:57:57 +0100, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/09/2022 16:53, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:07:22 +0100, John Rumm
>>>
>>>
>>>> I now understand all the other wires that are obviously there for the
>>>> inbuilt boiler timer. I've left them there and put the timer "always
>>>> on" and at a high temp. I presume that's ok.
>>>
>>> Yup, always on is fine. If the temp is the boiler flow temp, then you
>>> can probably have that set fairly low (50 deg say) this time of year.
>>>
>>
>> Oh, that's the opposite to the way my brain was working. I thought
>> just leave it on high and let the stat control things and never touch
>> it again.
>
>Well that would certainly work, however there are downsides in doing it
>that way.
>
>> Having said that I've just been to look and with the dial
>> at around the 2/3rds the temp got to 50degC. What am I aiming to
>> achieve here, smoothness ie longer periods on rather than overshoots
>> and lots of on/off cycles?
>
>You have a boiler that can modulate (i.e. vary its output power to match
>the demand), and it is also a condensing boiler. So it will achieve
>higher efficiencies with lower return water temperatures (since these
>dictate how cool it can get the exhaust gases and in turn how much
>latent heat it can extract from them).
>
>So longer burns at lower power will mean:
>
>Narrower temperature swings, and fewer overshoots. So more comfortable,
>and less overheating.
>

In the olden days before I had this modern technology that is what I'd
do. Regular trips to the boiler room ~ 30 paces each way and alter
the boiler's stat. It rotates from 12 'o' clock to about 9 'o' clock.
At (a bit later than) this time of the year I'd have it on about 1 'o'
clock. I'll wind it down from its current setting of 6 'o' clock.

>Less clanking and clicking noise from expanding rads and pipework.
>

Again this is what I was doing manually, prefering in winter to have
it run at a low temperature so it ran on all night. Glad that I'd got
something right.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 22 Sep 2022 21:52:58 GMT, Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:25:28 +0000, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 20:57:57 +0100, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>>On 22/09/2022 16:53, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:07:22 +0100, John Rumm
>>>
>>>
>>>> I now understand all the other wires that are obviously there for the
>>>> inbuilt boiler timer. I've left them there and put the timer "always
>>>> on" and at a high temp. I presume that's ok.
>>>
>>>Yup, always on is fine. If the temp is the boiler flow temp, then you
>>>can probably have that set fairly low (50 deg say) this time of year.
>>>
>>>
>> Oh, that's the opposite to the way my brain was working. I thought just
>> leave it on high and let the stat control things and never touch it
>> again.
>> Having said that I've just been to look and with the dial at around the
>> 2/3rds the temp got to 50degC. What am I aiming to achieve here,
>> smoothness ie longer periods on rather than overshoots and lots of
>> on/off cycles?
>
>The higher the flow temp, potentially the more loss in the pipes too. I
>was always told (by our CH guy) to keep it as low as possible consistent
>with enough heating and hot water. Higher in winter.
>

Makes much sense thank you.
--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 23/09/2022 07:58, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 23:02:42 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 22/09/2022 22:25, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 20:57:57 +0100, John Rumm
>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 22/09/2022 16:53, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:07:22 +0100, John Rumm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I now understand all the other wires that are obviously there for the
>>>>> inbuilt boiler timer. I've left them there and put the timer "always
>>>>> on" and at a high temp. I presume that's ok.
>>>>
>>>> Yup, always on is fine. If the temp is the boiler flow temp, then you
>>>> can probably have that set fairly low (50 deg say) this time of year.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, that's the opposite to the way my brain was working. I thought
>>> just leave it on high and let the stat control things and never touch
>>> it again.
>>
>> Well that would certainly work, however there are downsides in doing it
>> that way.
>>
>>> Having said that I've just been to look and with the dial
>>> at around the 2/3rds the temp got to 50degC. What am I aiming to
>>> achieve here, smoothness ie longer periods on rather than overshoots
>>> and lots of on/off cycles?
>>
>> You have a boiler that can modulate (i.e. vary its output power to match
>> the demand), and it is also a condensing boiler. So it will achieve
>> higher efficiencies with lower return water temperatures (since these
>> dictate how cool it can get the exhaust gases and in turn how much
>> latent heat it can extract from them).
>>
>> So longer burns at lower power will mean:
>>
>> Narrower temperature swings, and fewer overshoots. So more comfortable,
>> and less overheating.
>>
>
> In the olden days before I had this modern technology that is what I'd
> do. Regular trips to the boiler room ~ 30 paces each way and alter
> the boiler's stat. It rotates from 12 'o' clock to about 9 'o' clock.
> At (a bit later than) this time of the year I'd have it on about 1 'o'
> clock. I'll wind it down from its current setting of 6 'o' clock.

With older non condensing boilers you also had to guard against running
it too low since you might reach a return temperature where the boiler
would start to condense water out of the flue gasses. Since the boiler
was not designed to deal with this (and probably had an upward firing
flame under the main heat exchanger), this would dump slightly acidic
water all over the (probably steel) heat exchanger and boiler metalwork,
causing accelerated corrosion.

Modern boilers like yours are designed to induce condensing of the gases
(and the water is collected and dumped to a drain without ruining the
boiler). Forcing the phase change from the gas state to liquid recovers
the latent heat of vaporisation that is in effect stored in the flue gas.

>> Less clanking and clicking noise from expanding rads and pipework.
>>
>
> Again this is what I was doing manually, prefering in winter to have
> it run at a low temperature so it ran on all night. Glad that I'd got
> something right.

In effect you were manually doing weather compensation...

Modern systems that have it normally have an external temperature
sensor, and use a reading from that to influence the flow temp used.

The system is usually configured with a heat loss "curve" that maps the
external temp to a flow temp. The installer will select a curve that
reflects the thermal performance of the building.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 22/09/2022 22:25, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 20:57:57 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 22/09/2022 16:53, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 13:07:22 +0100, John Rumm
>>
>>
>>> I now understand all the other wires that are obviously there for the
>>> inbuilt boiler timer. I've left them there and put the timer "always
>>> on" and at a high temp. I presume that's ok.
>>
>> Yup, always on is fine. If the temp is the boiler flow temp, then you
>> can probably have that set fairly low (50 deg say) this time of year.
>>
>
> Oh, that's the opposite to the way my brain was working. I thought
> just leave it on high and let the stat control things and never touch
> it again. Having said that I've just been to look and with the dial
> at around the 2/3rds the temp got to 50degC. What am I aiming to
> achieve here, smoothness ie longer periods on rather than overshoots
> and lots of on/off cycles?
>
> Lounge is set for 20degC till 2230. Probably wouldn't have had the
> boiler on yet (usually try to wait to the end of September) but
> obviously got to try the new setup. 15deg overnight, 19deg 0630-0830,
> 15deg 0830-1930. These are the app's default settings. Seems as if
> I'm expected to have 30mins lie in over the weekend.

Well worth tweaking these. After a few days look at the graphs that
record temps over time.

>
> It'll be interesting to see what happens when I install the app on
> SWMBO's smartphone. She would never go to adjust the boiler but I bet
> there'll be a lot of Boost going on. The intention is to try and save
> fuel but I now wonder if that's a bit optimistic. I'll need to find
> the quick anti-Boost setting (Away Mode possibly). Investigations for
> another day.
>

Why bother. She can just twist the valve or tap the thermostat for a boost..

Dave

Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> wrote:

>
> I also believe that condensing boilers are more efficient at lower flow
> temps, but I'll let someone else comment on that.

Strictly speaking, more efficient at lower return temperatures. That’s
what is needed to recover heat energy from the exhaust.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:00:29 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 22/09/2022 20:49, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>> AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>>> Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>>> extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>>> boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>>> always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>>> behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>>> Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>>> would have connected to the pantry controller.
>>>
>>> With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>>>
>>> So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>>> and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>>>
>>> Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.
>>
>> Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.
>>
>> Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.
>
>Yup, could make an interesting wiki page if Anthony does not mind
>writing a few words.
>

Just over a year later and a couple of months out of guarantee and
first issues of any consequence of arisen.

Prior to this the installation worked fine over last winter and to
date. The Wiser app on Android for the most part was trouble free and
enabled schedules to be setup for any day of the week. As we are both
retired there was no need to make any weekend alteration and so one
day's schedule was setup and then copied to the rest of the week.

A couple user defined shortcuts allow to turn off till next time event
or boost till next timed event.

I've not done a detailed year/season comparison yet and clearly just
looking at bills isn't useful. My gut says I've saved money. We have
a large south facing lounge in which the thermostat resides (out of
direct sunlight) so the heating turns off sooner than I'd like in the
study at the back of the house.

Anyway that was all up till last night when my wife knocked the
thermostat on the coffee table and it toppled over, still on the
table. Since then the whole system has been unstable. Funny
thermostat temperatures, boiler (Baxi 105HE) stopping with fault light
60degC (pump/pressure).

I've reset the boiler with the reset switch, reset the boiler and
thermostat control unit by turning off the power, removed the
batteries from the thermostat, put back and attempted a reset, all
more than once. Things seem more sensible since the last time I did
the resets (swapped the batteries around though the display shows they
are good).

If the issues continue I am minded to take the thermostat out of the
loop and wonder what is the easiest way to do that, eg do I just short
across the "call for heat" connections? If faults continue then I can
put it down to the boiler which is on my list to replace next summer
anyway. Note the boiler has its own timer module which at the moment
is set to follow timer and all timer pins are OFF (so the Call for
heat is made by the Drayton control unit).

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 27/11/2023 11:32, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:00:29 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 22/09/2022 20:49, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>> AnthonyL wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>>>> extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>>>> boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>>>> always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>>>> behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>>>> Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>>>> would have connected to the pantry controller.
>>>>
>>>> With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>>>>
>>>> So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>>>> and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>>>>
>>>> Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.
>>>
>>> Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.
>>>
>>> Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.
>>
>> Yup, could make an interesting wiki page if Anthony does not mind
>> writing a few words.
>>
>
> Just over a year later and a couple of months out of guarantee and
> first issues of any consequence of arisen.
>
> Prior to this the installation worked fine over last winter and to
> date. The Wiser app on Android for the most part was trouble free and
> enabled schedules to be setup for any day of the week. As we are both
> retired there was no need to make any weekend alteration and so one
> day's schedule was setup and then copied to the rest of the week.
>
> A couple user defined shortcuts allow to turn off till next time event
> or boost till next timed event.
>
> I've not done a detailed year/season comparison yet and clearly just
> looking at bills isn't useful. My gut says I've saved money. We have
> a large south facing lounge in which the thermostat resides (out of
> direct sunlight) so the heating turns off sooner than I'd like in the
> study at the back of the house.
>
> Anyway that was all up till last night when my wife knocked the
> thermostat on the coffee table and it toppled over, still on the
> table. Since then the whole system has been unstable. Funny
> thermostat temperatures, boiler (Baxi 105HE) stopping with fault light
> 60degC (pump/pressure).

The fault light on the boiler does not sound like something that could
be as a result of anything related to the stat. I suspect you have
unrelated fault that has shown up at the same time by coincidence.

Could it be as simple as the system pressure is low? What does it say on
the pressure gauge?

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 16:51:56 +0000, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 27/11/2023 11:32, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:00:29 +0100, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/09/2022 20:49, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>>> AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>>>>> extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>>>>> boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>>>>> always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>>>>> behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>>>>> Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>>>>> would have connected to the pantry controller.
>>>>>
>>>>> With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>>>>>
>>>>> So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>>>>> and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.
>>>>
>>>> Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.
>>>>
>>>> Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.
>>>
>>> Yup, could make an interesting wiki page if Anthony does not mind
>>> writing a few words.
>>>
>>
>> Just over a year later and a couple of months out of guarantee and
>> first issues of any consequence of arisen.
>>
>> Prior to this the installation worked fine over last winter and to
>> date. The Wiser app on Android for the most part was trouble free and
>> enabled schedules to be setup for any day of the week. As we are both
>> retired there was no need to make any weekend alteration and so one
>> day's schedule was setup and then copied to the rest of the week.
>>
>> A couple user defined shortcuts allow to turn off till next time event
>> or boost till next timed event.
>>
>> I've not done a detailed year/season comparison yet and clearly just
>> looking at bills isn't useful. My gut says I've saved money. We have
>> a large south facing lounge in which the thermostat resides (out of
>> direct sunlight) so the heating turns off sooner than I'd like in the
>> study at the back of the house.
>>
>> Anyway that was all up till last night when my wife knocked the
>> thermostat on the coffee table and it toppled over, still on the
>> table. Since then the whole system has been unstable. Funny
>> thermostat temperatures, boiler (Baxi 105HE) stopping with fault light
>> 60degC (pump/pressure).
>
>The fault light on the boiler does not sound like something that could
>be as a result of anything related to the stat. I suspect you have
>unrelated fault that has shown up at the same time by coincidence.
>
>Could it be as simple as the system pressure is low? What does it say on
>the pressure gauge?
>

I don't like "coincidences". The one day x happens y also happens
despite a year of operation (ok not much happend over summer).

The boiler kicked in as expected this morning, ran all day in
accordance with schedule then at 1845 stopped again. Simply turned
the Boiler On/off/Hot water only dial to off, then on again and boiler
fires up. Pressure ~1.5 bar on restart (pipes still warm), and some
3hrs later ~2.3 bar. I'll check fully cold pressure in the morning
and if appropriate drop it to 0.5 bar. Boiler is not making any
unusual sounds. I'm gently winding the boiler temperature up as the
desired room temp of 19.5C is not being reached. It is 2C outside.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 28/11/2023 21:09, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 16:51:56 +0000, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 27/11/2023 11:32, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:00:29 +0100, John Rumm
>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 22/09/2022 20:49, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>>>> AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>>>>>> extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>>>>>> boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>>>>>> always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>>>>>> behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>>>>>> Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>>>>>> would have connected to the pantry controller.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>>>>>> and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.
>>>>
>>>> Yup, could make an interesting wiki page if Anthony does not mind
>>>> writing a few words.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just over a year later and a couple of months out of guarantee and
>>> first issues of any consequence of arisen.
>>>
>>> Prior to this the installation worked fine over last winter and to
>>> date. The Wiser app on Android for the most part was trouble free and
>>> enabled schedules to be setup for any day of the week. As we are both
>>> retired there was no need to make any weekend alteration and so one
>>> day's schedule was setup and then copied to the rest of the week.
>>>
>>> A couple user defined shortcuts allow to turn off till next time event
>>> or boost till next timed event.
>>>
>>> I've not done a detailed year/season comparison yet and clearly just
>>> looking at bills isn't useful. My gut says I've saved money. We have
>>> a large south facing lounge in which the thermostat resides (out of
>>> direct sunlight) so the heating turns off sooner than I'd like in the
>>> study at the back of the house.
>>>
>>> Anyway that was all up till last night when my wife knocked the
>>> thermostat on the coffee table and it toppled over, still on the
>>> table. Since then the whole system has been unstable. Funny
>>> thermostat temperatures, boiler (Baxi 105HE) stopping with fault light
>>> 60degC (pump/pressure).
>>
>> The fault light on the boiler does not sound like something that could
>> be as a result of anything related to the stat. I suspect you have
>> unrelated fault that has shown up at the same time by coincidence.
>>
>> Could it be as simple as the system pressure is low? What does it say on
>> the pressure gauge?
>>
>
> I don't like "coincidences". The one day x happens y also happens
> despite a year of operation (ok not much happend over summer).

Can you posit a way in which doing something with the call for heat on
the boiler could result in a pressure / pump warning?

The don't seem like plausibly related things, hence my desire to not
attach significance to them in association.

>
> The boiler kicked in as expected this morning, ran all day in
> accordance with schedule then at 1845 stopped again. Simply turned
> the Boiler On/off/Hot water only dial to off, then on again and boiler
> fires up. Pressure ~1.5 bar on restart (pipes still warm), and some
> 3hrs later ~2.3 bar. I'll check fully cold pressure in the morning
> and if appropriate drop it to 0.5 bar. Boiler is not making any
> unusual sounds. I'm gently winding the boiler temperature up as the
> desired room temp of 19.5C is not being reached. It is 2C outside.
>
>

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 28/11/2023 21:09, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 16:51:56 +0000, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 27/11/2023 11:32, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:00:29 +0100, John Rumm
>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 22/09/2022 20:49, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>>>> AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>>>>>> extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>>>>>> boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>>>>>> always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>>>>>> behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>>>>>> Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>>>>>> would have connected to the pantry controller.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>>>>>> and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.
>>>>
>>>> Yup, could make an interesting wiki page if Anthony does not mind
>>>> writing a few words.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just over a year later and a couple of months out of guarantee and
>>> first issues of any consequence of arisen.
>>>
>>> Prior to this the installation worked fine over last winter and to
>>> date. The Wiser app on Android for the most part was trouble free and
>>> enabled schedules to be setup for any day of the week. As we are both
>>> retired there was no need to make any weekend alteration and so one
>>> day's schedule was setup and then copied to the rest of the week.
>>>
>>> A couple user defined shortcuts allow to turn off till next time event
>>> or boost till next timed event.
>>>
>>> I've not done a detailed year/season comparison yet and clearly just
>>> looking at bills isn't useful. My gut says I've saved money. We have
>>> a large south facing lounge in which the thermostat resides (out of
>>> direct sunlight) so the heating turns off sooner than I'd like in the
>>> study at the back of the house.
>>>
>>> Anyway that was all up till last night when my wife knocked the
>>> thermostat on the coffee table and it toppled over, still on the
>>> table. Since then the whole system has been unstable. Funny
>>> thermostat temperatures, boiler (Baxi 105HE) stopping with fault light
>>> 60degC (pump/pressure).
>>
>> The fault light on the boiler does not sound like something that could
>> be as a result of anything related to the stat. I suspect you have
>> unrelated fault that has shown up at the same time by coincidence.
>>
>> Could it be as simple as the system pressure is low? What does it say on
>> the pressure gauge?
>>
>
> I don't like "coincidences". The one day x happens y also happens
> despite a year of operation (ok not much happend over summer).
>
> The boiler kicked in as expected this morning, ran all day in
> accordance with schedule then at 1845 stopped again. Simply turned
> the Boiler On/off/Hot water only dial to off, then on again and boiler
> fires up. Pressure ~1.5 bar on restart (pipes still warm), and some
> 3hrs later ~2.3 bar. I'll check fully cold pressure in the morning
> and if appropriate drop it to 0.5 bar. Boiler is not making any
> unusual sounds. I'm gently winding the boiler temperature up as the
> desired room temp of 19.5C is not being reached. It is 2C outside.

1.5 bar with warm pipes and 2.3 with hottish water is quite a
difference. Most boilers cut-out above 3 bar and below 1.0/0.5 bar.

Are you sure your expansion vessel is suitably charged? If you're going
to drop the system pressure now is a time to check and perhaps recharge?

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 21:28:13 +0000, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 28/11/2023 21:09, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 16:51:56 +0000, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/11/2023 11:32, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:00:29 +0100, John Rumm
>>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 22/09/2022 20:49, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>>>>> AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>>>>>>> extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>>>>>>> boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>>>>>>> always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>>>>>>> behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>>>>>>> Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>>>>>>> would have connected to the pantry controller.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>>>>>>> and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup, could make an interesting wiki page if Anthony does not mind
>>>>> writing a few words.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just over a year later and a couple of months out of guarantee and
>>>> first issues of any consequence of arisen.
>>>>
>>>> Prior to this the installation worked fine over last winter and to
>>>> date. The Wiser app on Android for the most part was trouble free and
>>>> enabled schedules to be setup for any day of the week. As we are both
>>>> retired there was no need to make any weekend alteration and so one
>>>> day's schedule was setup and then copied to the rest of the week.
>>>>
>>>> A couple user defined shortcuts allow to turn off till next time event
>>>> or boost till next timed event.
>>>>
>>>> I've not done a detailed year/season comparison yet and clearly just
>>>> looking at bills isn't useful. My gut says I've saved money. We have
>>>> a large south facing lounge in which the thermostat resides (out of
>>>> direct sunlight) so the heating turns off sooner than I'd like in the
>>>> study at the back of the house.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway that was all up till last night when my wife knocked the
>>>> thermostat on the coffee table and it toppled over, still on the
>>>> table. Since then the whole system has been unstable. Funny
>>>> thermostat temperatures, boiler (Baxi 105HE) stopping with fault light
>>>> 60degC (pump/pressure).
>>>
>>> The fault light on the boiler does not sound like something that could
>>> be as a result of anything related to the stat. I suspect you have
>>> unrelated fault that has shown up at the same time by coincidence.
>>>
>>> Could it be as simple as the system pressure is low? What does it say on
>>> the pressure gauge?
>>>
>>
>> I don't like "coincidences". The one day x happens y also happens
>> despite a year of operation (ok not much happend over summer).
>
>Can you posit a way in which doing something with the call for heat on
>the boiler could result in a pressure / pump warning?
>
>The don't seem like plausibly related things, hence my desire to not
>attach significance to them in association.
>

Regarding the "plausibly related things" my gut tells me that if
something happens to make the boiler work harder then the boiler will
fail. I had this last winter when I took the thermostat from the
moderately warm lounge in the front (south facing/large window) to my
study in the back and the boiler was unable to get my room up to
temperature and then failed. I reset and put the thermostat back in
the lounge. On the recent occasion my wife in her "panic" to put the
dislodged thermostat back had I think it the + button a few times
upping the target temperature from 19.5deg to 23.5deg and I suspect
that had a similar issue to moving the thermostat to my study, the
boiler/boiler settings did not allow that temperature to be reached.

FWIW I gave the boiler interior (not the burner) a bit of clean,
cobwebs, spider skins, and brushed some of the crud off of the DHW
sensor. I also dropped the pressure (at cold) from 0.8 to 0.6, didn't
want to go any lower.

Whilst the boiler worked fine for a day the room was not reaching
target temperature so I turned the control up from the 4 'o' clock
position to 6 'o' clock. Here is where strange things happend. At
the 4 'o' clock position the neons (in 10deg increments starting at
30deg) get to 60deg. At the 6 'o' clock position they only went up to
40deg. Needless to say the lounge did not warm up so returned to the
4 'o' clock position.

System ran last night all right until again 8am with the fault light
flashing. Reset and back up running until not needed at 1030.

An hour later I decided to have a shower and that was a nightmare.
Ran, then hot, then off. This happened a couple of times, fault light
flashing then after a few moments back on again until after about the
3rd time it was all fine and I enjoyed a nice hot shower. I don't
usually encounter this but I think my wife has complained of it and
I'm wondering whether the difference is that she tends to have her
showers when there is no call for heat whereas I have my showers early
evening. Thermal shock? Steady state?

So this afternoon, I decided to have another go at reaching the target
temperature and turned the dial to 4.5 'o' clock. It took about
3.5hrs to get from 17.5deg to 19.5deg and then the boiler started
cycling as opposed to be continuously on as the call for heat had
dropped.

I observed a couple of cycles:

1815 � timed a cycle with target temperature reached (19.5� with
outside at 0�)
1. Approx 5�30� on, neons at 60�
2. ~ 3 mins no burner then pump off
3. Fault light flashes, 3 neons, then another 1� before cycle
restarts

I'm sure I've read that it is better for the burner to cycle than be
constantly on. Does the cycle ratio on/off seem reasonable? Last
year I had the boiler temp too low and got a lot of short
cycling/hunting.

I feel that there is a sensor fault and/or the temperature dials are
an issue. The pump gets more than hand hot which is a bit of a
concern.

I'm hoping that I can get the boiler to limp through this winter with
the intention of replacing it next summer. Trying to get a man in to
have a look but of course they are all a bit busy with people like
me!!

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 01/12/2023 19:19, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 21:28:13 +0000, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 28/11/2023 21:09, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 16:51:56 +0000, John Rumm
>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/11/2023 11:32, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:00:29 +0100, John Rumm
>>>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22/09/2022 20:49, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>>>>>> AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>>>>>>>> extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>>>>>>>> boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>>>>>>>> always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>>>>>>>> behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>>>>>>>> Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>>>>>>>> would have connected to the pantry controller.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>>>>>>>> and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup, could make an interesting wiki page if Anthony does not mind
>>>>>> writing a few words.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just over a year later and a couple of months out of guarantee and
>>>>> first issues of any consequence of arisen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Prior to this the installation worked fine over last winter and to
>>>>> date. The Wiser app on Android for the most part was trouble free and
>>>>> enabled schedules to be setup for any day of the week. As we are both
>>>>> retired there was no need to make any weekend alteration and so one
>>>>> day's schedule was setup and then copied to the rest of the week.
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple user defined shortcuts allow to turn off till next time event
>>>>> or boost till next timed event.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've not done a detailed year/season comparison yet and clearly just
>>>>> looking at bills isn't useful. My gut says I've saved money. We have
>>>>> a large south facing lounge in which the thermostat resides (out of
>>>>> direct sunlight) so the heating turns off sooner than I'd like in the
>>>>> study at the back of the house.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway that was all up till last night when my wife knocked the
>>>>> thermostat on the coffee table and it toppled over, still on the
>>>>> table. Since then the whole system has been unstable. Funny
>>>>> thermostat temperatures, boiler (Baxi 105HE) stopping with fault light
>>>>> 60degC (pump/pressure).
>>>>
>>>> The fault light on the boiler does not sound like something that could
>>>> be as a result of anything related to the stat. I suspect you have
>>>> unrelated fault that has shown up at the same time by coincidence.
>>>>
>>>> Could it be as simple as the system pressure is low? What does it say on
>>>> the pressure gauge?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't like "coincidences". The one day x happens y also happens
>>> despite a year of operation (ok not much happend over summer).
>>
>> Can you posit a way in which doing something with the call for heat on
>> the boiler could result in a pressure / pump warning?
>>
>> The don't seem like plausibly related things, hence my desire to not
>> attach significance to them in association.
>>
>
> Regarding the "plausibly related things" my gut tells me that if
> something happens to make the boiler work harder then the boiler will
> fail.

Depending what you mean by "work harder". An oversized boiler that does
lots of cycling will likely fail before one more appropriately sized for
the heating load. But decent length firings at whatever temp you have
selected are the least "wearing" use pattern.

> I had this last winter when I took the thermostat from the
> moderately warm lounge in the front (south facing/large window) to my
> study in the back and the boiler was unable to get my room up to
> temperature and then failed. I reset and put the thermostat back in
> the lounge. On the recent occasion my wife in her "panic" to put the
> dislodged thermostat back had I think it the + button a few times
> upping the target temperature from 19.5deg to 23.5deg and I suspect
> that had a similar issue to moving the thermostat to my study, the
> boiler/boiler settings did not allow that temperature to be reached.

or possibly the radiator output vs. the rate of heat loss from the room...

> FWIW I gave the boiler interior (not the burner) a bit of clean,
> cobwebs, spider skins, and brushed some of the crud off of the DHW
> sensor. I also dropped the pressure (at cold) from 0.8 to 0.6, didn't
> want to go any lower.

IME boiler pressure warnings are not complaining about higher than
expected pressure, but lower pressure. A sealed system boiler will
include an over pressure relief valve to vent water outside should the
pressure ever get too high - so it is not something most boilers would
report as a fault code. A low pressure reading however will get
reported. Generally you would set the pressure at the boiler to between
0.7 and 1 bar when cold. Depending on the total system water volume and
the size of the expansion vessel - you would see it rise as it warms -
but to usually no more than say 2.5 bar. The pressure relief valve will
normally be set to vent at 3 to 3.5bar

> Whilst the boiler worked fine for a day the room was not reaching
> target temperature so I turned the control up from the 4 'o' clock
> position to 6 'o' clock. Here is where strange things happend. At
> the 4 'o' clock position the neons (in 10deg increments starting at
> 30deg) get to 60deg. At the 6 'o' clock position they only went up to
> 40deg. Needless to say the lounge did not warm up so returned to the
> 4 'o' clock position.

What temperature are the neon indicators reporting - flow or return? If
reporting the return temp then it is entirely possible that you get
temperatures reported that don't necessarily match what you have set as
a target flow temperature, since the heating load can vary significantly
from one time to another.

>
> System ran last night all right until again 8am with the fault light
> flashing. Reset and back up running until not needed at 1030.
>
> An hour later I decided to have a shower and that was a nightmare.
> Ran, then hot, then off. This happened a couple of times, fault light
> flashing then after a few moments back on again until after about the
> 3rd time it was all fine and I enjoyed a nice hot shower. I don't
> usually encounter this but I think my wife has complained of it and
> I'm wondering whether the difference is that she tends to have her
> showers when there is no call for heat whereas I have my showers early
> evening. Thermal shock? Steady state?

Combis will normally give priority to DHW - so even if the heating was
on, drawing DHW will in effect turn off the heating for the duration.

You can get temperature fluctuation problems with some combis at low
rates of DHW demand since the boiler may not be able to keep within the
specified max DHW flow temp - even when modulated down (assuming it is a
modulating boiler) to minimum output. At that point the only option that
have is to cycle off.

> So this afternoon, I decided to have another go at reaching the target
> temperature and turned the dial to 4.5 'o' clock. It took about
> 3.5hrs to get from 17.5deg to 19.5deg and then the boiler started
> cycling as opposed to be continuously on as the call for heat had
> dropped.
>
> I observed a couple of cycles:
>
> 1815 – timed a cycle with target temperature reached (19.5° with
> outside at 0°)
> 1. Approx 5’30” on, neons at 60°
> 2. ~ 3 mins no burner then pump off
> 3. Fault light flashes, 3 neons, then another 1” before cycle
> restarts

On 02/12/2023 04:08, John Rumm wrote:

> IME boiler pressure warnings are not complaining about higher than
> expected pressure, but lower pressure. A sealed system boiler will
> include an over pressure relief valve to vent water outside should the
> pressure ever get too high - so it is not something most boilers would
> report as a fault code. A low pressure reading however will get
> reported. Generally you would set the pressure at the boiler to between
> 0.7 and 1 bar when cold.

Some manufactures seem to recommend something between 1 and 1.5 bar when
cold. As you say, there is a (over) pressure relief valve set to around
3 bar.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 02/12/2023 04:08, John Rumm wrote:

> On old fixed output boilers, the temperature "control" was basically
> just a thermostat, that would set the temperature at which the burner
> would stop firing. So if you turned it down it would (crudely) lower the
> average flow temperature by cycling the burner. Generally it is better
> to have them set fairly high since you are not going to gain any
> condensing efficiency at lower temperatures, and if it did start
> condensing then it would cause accelerated corrosion in the boiler anyway.
>
> On more modern modulating boilers the flow temp will set a desired
> output flow temp. The boiler will then run at high output until that
> flow temp is achieved, and then start to reduce output power to maintain
> it at that level. As the house warns and the return temp increases, then
> they will modulate down further. If there comes a point where the
> heating load is so low that the flow temp would exceed what you have set
> even with the boiler at its lowest output power, then it would behave
> like the older fixed output boiler and cycle on the internal stat.
>

If the boiler is oversized, which seems to be common when a like for
like boiler replacement has been undertaken without re-evaluating the
heat loss of the house, the boiler often cannot modulate down far enough
and will always short cycle. Modern boilers do tend to have lock out
periods to try and minimise the shortness of the cycle. After the flow
temperature is exceeded on the lowest boiler modulation the burner will
turn off. The boiler then locks out for x number of minutes before it
will fire up again. The pump continues to run during this lockout and
the flow temperature may drop quite a way below the set temperature
before the boiler fires up again. The boiler will always fire up at the
highest burner rate before modulating down.

If the OP has set the flow temperature too low on an oversize boiler
then he is possibly running into this lockout period. It may be better
for heating comfort and boiler opperation to set a higher flow
temperature rather than slavishly following the generic advice to have a
<60C flow on a boiler that doesn't run efficiently with a lower flow
temperature

When replacing an old boiler don't assume that the new boiler needs to
have the same heat capacity as the old boiler. The house may have been
improved with double glazing or better insulation in the intervening
years. Perhaps 10 or 20 years ago the heating "engineer" may have
performed a house heat loss calculation and just added x2 factor for the
boiler specification. With modern condensing boilers its better to match
the boiler more closely to the house heat loss or select a boiler with a
much better modulation range.

>> I feel that there is a sensor fault and/or the temperature dials are
>> an issue.
>
> Possibly - but understanding what they do and what they are trying to
> tell you would also be handy :-)

+1
An understanding is important. The temperature indicated by the dials
may be accurate but this doesn't mean that the average temperature of
the CH water leaving the boiler is the same if the boiler is short
cycling and/or going into short(ish) lockout periods.

>
>> The pump gets more than hand hot which is a bit of a
>> concern.
>
> Well it is made out of conductive metal, and has heated primary flow
> water running through it. So you would expect it to be has hot as the
> water it is pumping really - so that could easily be 60 to 80 degrees,
> and definitely not "hand safe" to touch.water

+1
Effectively the pump is just a small metal radiator with hot water
flowing through it. You wouldn't do your hand dish washing in 60C water
because it would be too hot! Typically a CH pump is specified to a
operating temperature of around 100C

--
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On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 04:08:03 +0000, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 01/12/2023 19:19, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 21:28:13 +0000, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 28/11/2023 21:09, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 16:51:56 +0000, John Rumm
>>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/11/2023 11:32, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Sep 2022 21:00:29 +0100, John Rumm
>>>>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 22/09/2022 20:49, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>>>>>>> AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Well you had my brain ticking over there. The people who had the
>>>>>>>>> extension built. two owners ago probably retained the original house
>>>>>>>>> boiler. The current boiler was put in by the last owner who was
>>>>>>>>> always cash-strapped. That made me look more closely at the box
>>>>>>>>> behind the jackets that are hung up in the pantry. An ACL Drayton.
>>>>>>>>> Go back to the boiler and there is an unconnected cable, the one that
>>>>>>>>> would have connected to the pantry controller.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> With John Rumm's help wired it all up and working.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So location is now not an issue, it is near the lounge, good wireless
>>>>>>>>> and Wi-Fi signal and of course I could use the existing backplate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Brilliant - thanks for sparking my brain to investigate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Glad you are making progress, we are always learning.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interested to hear how it all actually performs for you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yup, could make an interesting wiki page if Anthony does not mind
>>>>>>> writing a few words.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just over a year later and a couple of months out of guarantee and
>>>>>> first issues of any consequence of arisen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prior to this the installation worked fine over last winter and to
>>>>>> date. The Wiser app on Android for the most part was trouble free and
>>>>>> enabled schedules to be setup for any day of the week. As we are both
>>>>>> retired there was no need to make any weekend alteration and so one
>>>>>> day's schedule was setup and then copied to the rest of the week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A couple user defined shortcuts allow to turn off till next time event
>>>>>> or boost till next timed event.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've not done a detailed year/season comparison yet and clearly just
>>>>>> looking at bills isn't useful. My gut says I've saved money. We have
>>>>>> a large south facing lounge in which the thermostat resides (out of
>>>>>> direct sunlight) so the heating turns off sooner than I'd like in the
>>>>>> study at the back of the house.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway that was all up till last night when my wife knocked the
>>>>>> thermostat on the coffee table and it toppled over, still on the
>>>>>> table. Since then the whole system has been unstable. Funny
>>>>>> thermostat temperatures, boiler (Baxi 105HE) stopping with fault light
>>>>>> 60degC (pump/pressure).
>>>>>
>>>>> The fault light on the boiler does not sound like something that could
>>>>> be as a result of anything related to the stat. I suspect you have
>>>>> unrelated fault that has shown up at the same time by coincidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> Could it be as simple as the system pressure is low? What does it say on
>>>>> the pressure gauge?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't like "coincidences". The one day x happens y also happens
>>>> despite a year of operation (ok not much happend over summer).
>>>
>>> Can you posit a way in which doing something with the call for heat on
>>> the boiler could result in a pressure / pump warning?
>>>

I'm trying to posit a way in which it doesn't happen :)

>>> The don't seem like plausibly related things, hence my desire to not
>>> attach significance to them in association.
>>>
>>
>> Regarding the "plausibly related things" my gut tells me that if
>> something happens to make the boiler work harder then the boiler will
>> fail.
>
>Depending what you mean by "work harder". An oversized boiler that does
>lots of cycling will likely fail before one more appropriately sized for
>the heating load. But decent length firings at whatever temp you have
>selected are the least "wearing" use pattern.
>

See response below.

>> I had this last winter when I took the thermostat from the
>> moderately warm lounge in the front (south facing/large window) to my
>> study in the back and the boiler was unable to get my room up to
>> temperature and then failed. I reset and put the thermostat back in
>> the lounge. On the recent occasion my wife in her "panic" to put the
>> dislodged thermostat back had I think it the + button a few times
>> upping the target temperature from 19.5deg to 23.5deg and I suspect
>> that had a similar issue to moving the thermostat to my study, the
>> boiler/boiler settings did not allow that temperature to be reached.
>
>or possibly the radiator output vs. the rate of heat loss from the room...
>

If I get a new system in I'll have the radiator sizes and balancing
re-checked. I think my study radiator, against and outside wall in a
flat roof extension, is undersized. But the boiler, in trying to get
to an unachievable temperature, ended up with the fault light so there
was a weakness then.

>> FWIW I gave the boiler interior (not the burner) a bit of clean,
>> cobwebs, spider skins, and brushed some of the crud off of the DHW
>> sensor. I also dropped the pressure (at cold) from 0.8 to 0.6, didn't
>> want to go any lower.
>
>IME boiler pressure warnings are not complaining about higher than
>expected pressure, but lower pressure. A sealed system boiler will
>include an over pressure relief valve to vent water outside should the
>pressure ever get too high - so it is not something most boilers would
>report as a fault code. A low pressure reading however will get
>reported. Generally you would set the pressure at the boiler to between
>0.7 and 1 bar when cold. Depending on the total system water volume and
>the size of the expansion vessel - you would see it rise as it warms -
>but to usually no more than say 2.5 bar. The pressure relief valve will
>normally be set to vent at 3 to 3.5bar
>

See response below. I don't think the pressure is, or has been, out of
bounds, either cold or operating (currently at about 2bar when
running).

>> Whilst the boiler worked fine for a day the room was not reaching
>> target temperature so I turned the control up from the 4 'o' clock
>> position to 6 'o' clock. Here is where strange things happend. At
>> the 4 'o' clock position the neons (in 10deg increments starting at
>> 30deg) get to 60deg. At the 6 'o' clock position they only went up to
>> 40deg. Needless to say the lounge did not warm up so returned to the
>> 4 'o' clock position.
>
>What temperature are the neon indicators reporting - flow or return? If
>reporting the return temp then it is entirely possible that you get
>temperatures reported that don't necessarily match what you have set as
>a target flow temperature, since the heating load can vary significantly
>from one time to another.
>

Flow as best I understand it, see response below.

>>
>> System ran last night all right until again 8am with the fault light
>> flashing. Reset and back up running until not needed at 1030.
>>
>> An hour later I decided to have a shower and that was a nightmare.
>> Ran, then hot, then off. This happened a couple of times, fault light
>> flashing then after a few moments back on again until after about the
>> 3rd time it was all fine and I enjoyed a nice hot shower. I don't
>> usually encounter this but I think my wife has complained of it and
>> I'm wondering whether the difference is that she tends to have her
>> showers when there is no call for heat whereas I have my showers early
>> evening. Thermal shock? Steady state?
>
>Combis will normally give priority to DHW - so even if the heating was
>on, drawing DHW will in effect turn off the heating for the duration.
>