SteveW wrote:

>In my own house, I have a thermostat and a motorised valve for each
>room, so it doesn't matter if someone puts a fire on; the sun happens to
>be shining on that side of the house; we're cooking, etc. Each room will
>get up to the temperature set for that room, at that time of day, and
>then shut off, unless it cools again. None of the other rooms are affected.

What hardware do you use? That sounds much like I would like to
achieve, but don't really want to have to run new cables around
the house.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Brian wrote:

>I suspect that, with, Smart TRVs, you could ( for example) avoid heating
>the bedrooms during the day (assuming they are unused), give them a burst
>in the evening and morning ( if that is what you like), and apply a similar
>approach in other rooms where the use is predictable.

This is what I wrote last year:

"My Bulldog TRVs are about 16 years old, all renewed when I had a
new boiler. A couple of them have been fitted with an electronic
control. I don't think anything which combines valve and detector
adjacent to the radiator itself is particularly effective.

One stopped turning off. Having put back the original
thermostatic head, it still seems to be stuck open, though the
spindle appears to move freely.

Before the TRVs were replaced, I had regular issues with them
sticking closed, but this is a new one on me.

This happened during lockdown, so I didn't want to risk diving in
and rendering the whole heating system unusable. I was surprised
how well the living room temperature was regulated simply relying
on the main stat in the hall, so I left it alone.

My partner, mostly working from home, needed to be able to
control an awkward TRV, so I moved the displaced unit to the
study, where it has worked for about 18 months, and now once
again I seem to have a valve stuck open.

Theoretically I could pay an inappropriate amount of money to
have remote sensing and control on most of the radiators, all
able to generate a call for heat.

Overall, especially if the weak point is the actual valve itself,
I think I will be financially better off leaving it alone."

Now that energy costs have rocketed, perhaps I should re-evaluate
the situation.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 00:15:10 +0100, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>>>> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
>>>> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
>>>> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
>>>> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
>>>> but untidy.
>>>
>>> It can go anywhere you like - it does not need to be on show. It will
>>> have a mains connection, and a wire to the call for heat input on the
>>> boiler.
>>>
>>
>> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
>> signal.
>
>The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.
>
>The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
>with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
>can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.
>

Indeed, noted.

>>>> In the future I might want remote access but at the moment it will be
>>>> a massive improvement on my current procedure of setting the timer
>>>> clock and temperature controls manually.
>>>
>>> Yup it will let you set the times and room temps. Note that it will not
>>> control the boiler flow temp - this would still be manual. To control
>>> boiler flow temps automatically you need weather compensation.
>>>
>>
>> Am I correct in that I can add a Hive hub at some future date?
>
>Yup. If you are planning to get one soon, it might be cheaper to get it
>with the stat as a "bundle".
>

GPWM

>>>> What can go wrong? Or am I on the right track?
>>>
>>> Sounds like you are on the right track.
>
>>> Remove the link wire between pins 1 and 2 on the boiler.
>>> Wire the Neutral pin on the boiler to the N pin on the stat.
>>> Wire pin 1 on the boiler to pin L on the stat
>>> Wire pin 2 on the boiler to pin 3 on the stat
>>>
>>
>> Yes, that's what's imprinted on the cover of the boiler control panel.
>
>good, that is reassuring.
>
>>> If using conventional 3 core flex with the normal Brown, Blue, and Earth
>>> wiring colours, you can use the earth core for the switched live from
>>> the stat (pin 3, on the stat, pin 2 on the boiler), but you should over
>>> mark it with brown insulating tape at both ends to indicate it is
>>> repurposed as a (switched) live and is not an earth connection.
>>>
>>
>> Why wouldn't I simply use the live and neutral wires?
>
>You are using the Neutral. Using the live directly would certainly work,
>although it is not the way they have suggested that you do it.
>
>It might be that there are times where it can deactivate it's live out
>to the stat on pin 1 (for example on boilers that have an integral timer).
>
>Also the live on pin 1 on the boiler will be downstream of its 2A fuse.
>Since the stat requires fusing at no more than 3A, that is an easy way
>to ensure this. (the boiler supply is probably already fused at 3A
>somewhere - but this way you avoid doubt)
>
>

My error, speed reading at my age too. Thanks.

Cheers

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 11/09/2022 15:22, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> SteveW wrote:
>
>> In my own house, I have a thermostat and a motorised valve for each
>> room, so it doesn't matter if someone puts a fire on; the sun happens to
>> be shining on that side of the house; we're cooking, etc. Each room will
>> get up to the temperature set for that room, at that time of day, and
>> then shut off, unless it cools again. None of the other rooms are affected.
>
> What hardware do you use? That sounds much like I would like to
> achieve, but don't really want to have to run new cables around
> the house.
>
> Chris

I have Drayton wiser which does this. It replaces the sensing head on a
thermostatic valve with a combined a electronic thermostat and motorised
valve. You can put one on each radiator, but you don't have too. Its all
wireless controlled so no wires. You do need an app to configure it. You
but you can disable all the "smart features" and you can buy the bits
from screwfix.

https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/

you can do the same with TADO but its more expensive

https://www.tado.com/gb-en

I think its great, as the living room rad goes off over night, and I can
have the bedroom at the temperature I want

Dave

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:

>>
>> Am I correct in that I can add a Hive hub at some future date?
>
>Yup. If you are planning to get one soon, it might be cheaper to get it
>with the stat as a "bundle".
>

No difference in price at the moment with Screwfix, of course that
might change. Worryingly now that I've seen that Hive are part of
British Gas and that they are dropping all their other products (what
an advert for product loyalty) I expect they'll put the prices up.

I'm still wrestling for instance how long it might take to save �135
(assuming self install). But we do use not far off 20,000 Kw for a
year, which for just the two of us is a lot though partly a reflection
of being in a sprawled out extended bungalow.

A further concern and this seems to be the nature of "smart" devices
is that the Hive hub is not transferable to a new owner and so I
wonder what other limitations and issues may be encountered.

I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
itself in the year*. That is purely by not having heating on, or as
high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
settings.

* Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 12/09/2022 22:05, AnthonyL wrote:

> I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
> itself in the year*. That is purely by not having heating on, or as
> high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
> settings.
>
> * Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.
>

As the Ofgen notional average is based on a 3 bed room house with 2 to 3
people you seem to be 8,000kWh above this average.

Are you overheating rooms that you little use and are you keeping doors
shut? Last year I visited a house where the utility room and (spare)
toilet were hotter than the main living room. It wasn't much difference
in their "junk" room - keeping the boxes full of crap warm.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 07:54:06 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 12/09/2022 22:05, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
>> itself in the year*. That is purely by not having heating on, or as
>> high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
>> settings.
>>
>> * Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.
>>
>
>As the Ofgen notional average is based on a 3 bed room house with 2 to 3
>people you seem to be 8,000kWh above this average.
>
>Are you overheating rooms that you little use and are you keeping doors
>shut? Last year I visited a house where the utility room and (spare)
>toilet were hotter than the main living room. It wasn't much difference
>in their "junk" room - keeping the boxes full of crap warm.
>

As well as my posts in this thread see also

Subject: Turning radiator off/down - no thermostat valve
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2022 12:10:49 GMT

There is a large hall with an "unvalved" radiator as well as there
being no room thermostat. And my wife's hands are freezing this
morning - thermometer says 21degC.

So yes this is all about being more efficient.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 21:05:28 GMT, nospam@please.invalid (AnthonyL)
wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
><see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>>On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Am I correct in that I can add a Hive hub at some future date?
>>
>>Yup. If you are planning to get one soon, it might be cheaper to get it
>>with the stat as a "bundle".
>>
>
>No difference in price at the moment with Screwfix, of course that
>might change. Worryingly now that I've seen that Hive are part of
>British Gas and that they are dropping all their other products (what
>an advert for product loyalty) I expect they'll put the prices up.
>
>I'm still wrestling for instance how long it might take to save �135
>(assuming self install). But we do use not far off 20,000 Kw for a
>year, which for just the two of us is a lot though partly a reflection
>of being in a sprawled out extended bungalow.
>
>A further concern and this seems to be the nature of "smart" devices
>is that the Hive hub is not transferable to a new owner and so I
>wonder what other limitations and issues may be encountered.
>
>I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
>itself in the year*. That is purely by not having heating on, or as
>high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
>settings.
>
>* Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.
>

I've looked a bit deeper at options and the
Drayton Wiser Wireless Heating 1-Channel Thermostat Control Kit

https://www.screwfix.com/p/drayton-wiser-wireless-heating-1-channel-thermostat-control-kit/7785v

at �118.99 seems a better purchase than the Hive.
It seems to have the same functionality as
https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-active-v3-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat/702jk#BVQAWidgetID

Have I read it correctly?

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 13/09/2022 08:16, AnthonyL wrote:

> at Ł118.99 seems a better purchase than the Hive.
> It seems to have the same functionality as
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/hive-active-v3-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat/702jk#BVQAWidgetID
>
> Have I read it correctly?
>

With most of these devices there is a lot of information on Youtube.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 13/09/2022 07:54, alan_m wrote:
> On 12/09/2022 22:05, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>> I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
>> itself in the year*.  That is purely by not having heating on, or as
>> high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
>> settings.
>>
>> * Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.
>>
>
> As the Ofgen notional average is based on a 3 bed room house with 2 to 3
> people you seem to be 8,000kWh above this average.

Does that "national average" assume the house is unoccupied for a period
each day?

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 13/09/2022 10:47, John Rumm wrote:
> On 13/09/2022 07:54, alan_m wrote:
>> On 12/09/2022 22:05, AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>>> I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
>>> itself in the year*.  That is purely by not having heating on, or as
>>> high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
>>> settings.
>>>
>>> * Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.
>>>
>>
>> As the Ofgen notional average is based on a 3 bed room house with 2 to
>> 3 people you seem to be 8,000kWh above this average.
>
> Does that "national average" assume the house is unoccupied for a period
> each day?
>

Ofgem don't "model" usage in that way. The figures they use ("Typical
Domestic Consumption Values") are based on what people use in practice:

"We calculate the typical low, medium and high TDCVs for gas and
electricity by calculating the lower quartile, median and upper quartile
of household consumption using the two most recent years of available
data, and then taking the average."

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2020/01/tdcvs_2020_decision_letter_0.pdf

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/09/2022 11:02, Robin wrote:
> On 13/09/2022 10:47, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 13/09/2022 07:54, alan_m wrote:
>>> On 12/09/2022 22:05, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>
>>>> I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
>>>> itself in the year*.  That is purely by not having heating on, or as
>>>> high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
>>>> settings.
>>>>
>>>> * Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As the Ofgen notional average is based on a 3 bed room house with 2
>>> to 3 people you seem to be 8,000kWh above this average.
>>
>> Does that "national average" assume the house is unoccupied for a
>> period each day?
>>
>
> Ofgem don't "model" usage in that way.  The figures they use ("Typical
> Domestic Consumption Values") are based on what people use in practice:
>
> "We calculate the typical low, medium and high TDCVs for gas and
> electricity by calculating the lower quartile, median and upper quartile
> of household consumption using the two most recent years of available
> data, and then taking the average."
>
> https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2020/01/tdcvs_2020_decision_letter_0.pdf

So I guess the qualified answer is "yes" in that the way they are
collecting data would tend to aggregate typical use for properties
occupied less than 24/7 into the lower or medium brackets.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 12/09/2022 22:05, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Am I correct in that I can add a Hive hub at some future date?
>>
>> Yup. If you are planning to get one soon, it might be cheaper to get it
>> with the stat as a "bundle".
>>
>
> No difference in price at the moment with Screwfix, of course that
> might change. Worryingly now that I've seen that Hive are part of
> British Gas and that they are dropping all their other products (what
> an advert for product loyalty) I expect they'll put the prices up.
>

I avoided Hive for that reason and bought Drayton Wiser.

> I'm still wrestling for instance how long it might take to save Ł135
> (assuming self install). But we do use not far off 20,000 Kw for a
> year, which for just the two of us is a lot though partly a reflection
> of being in a sprawled out extended bungalow.
>

Probably never. I just love the extra convenience of Drayton Wiser

> A further concern and this seems to be the nature of "smart" devices
> is that the Hive hub is not transferable to a new owner and so I
> wonder what other limitations and issues may be encountered.
>

Wiser is transferable. Simply reset and its back as blanks.

> I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
> itself in the year*. That is purely by not having heating on, or as
> high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
> settings.
>
> * Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.
>

I don't think I ever saved that much....

Dave

On 13/09/2022 11:51, John Rumm wrote:
> On 13/09/2022 11:02, Robin wrote:
>> On 13/09/2022 10:47, John Rumm wrote:
>>> On 13/09/2022 07:54, alan_m wrote:
>>>> On 12/09/2022 22:05, AnthonyL wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
>>>>> itself in the year*.  That is purely by not having heating on, or as
>>>>> high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
>>>>> settings.
>>>>>
>>>>> * Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As the Ofgen notional average is based on a 3 bed room house with 2
>>>> to 3 people you seem to be 8,000kWh above this average.
>>>
>>> Does that "national average" assume the house is unoccupied for a
>>> period each day?
>>>
>>
>> Ofgem don't "model" usage in that way.  The figures they use ("Typical
>> Domestic Consumption Values") are based on what people use in practice:
>>
>> "We calculate the typical low, medium and high TDCVs for gas and
>> electricity by calculating the lower quartile, median and upper
>> quartile of household consumption using the two most recent years of
>> available data, and then taking the average."
>>
>> https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2020/01/tdcvs_2020_decision_letter_0.pdf
>
>
> So I guess the qualified answer is "yes" in that the way they are
> collecting data would tend to aggregate typical use for properties
> occupied less than 24/7 into the lower or medium brackets.
>

They are certainly aggregating properties used less than 24/7 in all 3
sets of figures. But I feel "assume" implies a decision on their part.
ISTM Ofgem are just accepting the rich variety of UK households. C.f.
"...assume people only take a bath or shower once a week" :)

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 12:52:45 +0100, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid>
wrote:

>On 12/09/2022 22:05, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Am I correct in that I can add a Hive hub at some future date?
>>>
>>> Yup. If you are planning to get one soon, it might be cheaper to get it
>>> with the stat as a "bundle".
>>>
>>
>> No difference in price at the moment with Screwfix, of course that
>> might change. Worryingly now that I've seen that Hive are part of
>> British Gas and that they are dropping all their other products (what
>> an advert for product loyalty) I expect they'll put the prices up.
>>
>
>I avoided Hive for that reason and bought Drayton Wiser.
>
>> I'm still wrestling for instance how long it might take to save Ł135
>> (assuming self install). But we do use not far off 20,000 Kw for a
>> year, which for just the two of us is a lot though partly a reflection
>> of being in a sprawled out extended bungalow.
>>
>
>Probably never. I just love the extra convenience of Drayton Wiser
>
>> A further concern and this seems to be the nature of "smart" devices
>> is that the Hive hub is not transferable to a new owner and so I
>> wonder what other limitations and issues may be encountered.
>>
>
>Wiser is transferable. Simply reset and its back as blanks.
>

Excellent, that's made my mind up.

>> I suppose if it cuts back 10% (is that realistic?) it's paid for
>> itself in the year*. That is purely by not having heating on, or as
>> high as we would if I was running back and forth to alter the boiler
>> settings.
>>
>> * Based on 20,000 Kw for the year at the new rate of 15p/Kw.
>>
>
>I don't think I ever saved that much....
>

But you might not have been starting from a point of having no room
thermostat, and we are yet to hit the big price cap.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

>>>
>>
>> I don't think I ever saved that much....
>>
>
> But you might not have been starting from a point of having no room
> thermostat, and we are yet to hit the big price cap.
>
>
No but we are no longer a young couple. When the Smart Meter fitter
suggested I could save £100 a year by turning the thermostat down I said
that keeping it as it was and avoiding a divorce was probably cheaper...

.. so for me the best thing about Wiser is that it works. If I want a
room warmer I can twiddle the top of the valve and it boosts the heat
for an hour. If we are away I can set an "away mode". Of course not
being young that means I forget to enable it before returning and come
back to a cold house....

... actually I once had a co-worker who divorced a husband because after
two winters the heating did not work...

Dave

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 00:15:10 +0100, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>>>> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
>>>> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
>>>> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
>>>> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
>>>> but untidy.
>>>
>>> It can go anywhere you like - it does not need to be on show. It will
>>> have a mains connection, and a wire to the call for heat input on the
>>> boiler.
>>>
>>
>> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
>> signal.
>
>The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.
>
>

I may have fallen over at the first hurdle.

I've just received delivery of:

https://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/drayton-wiser-thermostat-kit-1---one-channel-heat-hub/

Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1 - One Channel Heat Hub

I may have mentioned that the boiler is right at the back of the
garage extension. The lounge is at the front of the property, and the
internet hub is in the hall the other side of the lounge, but still a
little way (another room, external wall) from the boiler.

With my smartphone I do not get wireless connectivity from the boiler
room to the internet hub in the hall.

If I've understood the system correctly the Drayton room thermostat
has a wireless connection using Zigbee but if WiFi won't reach then
neither will Zigbee.

It will also require WiFi from the smartphone to the hub to program.

Thus unless I can come up with a better solution I'll end up putting
the thermostat in the utility room and standing in the utility room to
program it all, not ideal.

>The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
>with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
>can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.
>

Do you mean just connect 240v across the controller terminals before
trying to connect to the boiler? I thought it would need the boiler's
connectivity to operate.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

AnthonyL wrote:

>I may have fallen over at the first hurdle.
>
>I've just received delivery of:
>
>https://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/drayton-wiser-thermostat-kit-1---one-channel-heat-hub/
>
>Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1 - One Channel Heat Hub
>
>I may have mentioned that the boiler is right at the back of the
>garage extension. The lounge is at the front of the property, and the
>internet hub is in the hall the other side of the lounge, but still a
>little way (another room, external wall) from the boiler.
>
>With my smartphone I do not get wireless connectivity from the boiler
>room to the internet hub in the hall.

I wonder if you could place the hub wherever is most convenient
for its use, hopefully where there is also good wi-fi, and run
what may be lengthy cables from there to the actual boiler.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 19:56:02 +0100, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk>
wrote:

>AnthonyL wrote:
>
>>I may have fallen over at the first hurdle.
>>
>>I've just received delivery of:
>>
>>https://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/drayton-wiser-thermostat-kit-1---one-channel-heat-hub/
>>
>>Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1 - One Channel Heat Hub
>>
>>I may have mentioned that the boiler is right at the back of the
>>garage extension. The lounge is at the front of the property, and the
>>internet hub is in the hall the other side of the lounge, but still a
>>little way (another room, external wall) from the boiler.
>>
>>With my smartphone I do not get wireless connectivity from the boiler
>>room to the internet hub in the hall.
>
>I wonder if you could place the hub wherever is most convenient
>for its use, hopefully where there is also good wi-fi, and run
>what may be lengthy cables from there to the actual boiler.
>

Good thought but when the extension to the garage was built (two
owners ago) the facilities (pipes, cables) were threaded in from the
corner of the bungalow into flat roof void before putting the ceilings
in. When we wanted to separate the shower fan from the garage light
on/off switch the electrician said it was just too much work.

An external route would be easier but unsightly and bring its own
problems.

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 21/09/2022 19:08, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 00:15:10 +0100, John Rumm
>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
>>>>> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
>>>>> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
>>>>> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
>>>>> but untidy.
>>>>
>>>> It can go anywhere you like - it does not need to be on show. It will
>>>> have a mains connection, and a wire to the call for heat input on the
>>>> boiler.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
>>> signal.
>>
>> The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>> the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>> enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>> that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.
>>
>>
>
> I may have fallen over at the first hurdle.
>
> I've just received delivery of:
>
> https://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/drayton-wiser-thermostat-kit-1---one-channel-heat-hub/
>
> Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1 - One Channel Heat Hub
>
> I may have mentioned that the boiler is right at the back of the
> garage extension. The lounge is at the front of the property, and the
> internet hub is in the hall the other side of the lounge, but still a
> little way (another room, external wall) from the boiler.
>
> With my smartphone I do not get wireless connectivity from the boiler
> room to the internet hub in the hall.
>
> If I've understood the system correctly the Drayton room thermostat
> has a wireless connection using Zigbee but if WiFi won't reach then
> neither will Zigbee.
>

They do one of these but really expensive

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Drayton-Wiser-Heating-System-Extender/dp/B07D71BPGK?th=1

> It will also require WiFi from the smartphone to the hub to program.
>

you might use this sort of think...

https://www.tp-link.com/uk/home-networking/range-extender/

> Thus unless I can come up with a better solution I'll end up putting
> the thermostat in the utility room and standing in the utility room to
> program it all, not ideal.
>
>> The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
>> with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
>> can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.
>>
>
> Do you mean just connect 240v across the controller terminals before
> trying to connect to the boiler? I thought it would need the boiler's
> connectivity to operate.

It just needs 240v. It then connects the outputs to the boiler.
The only feedback is from the system is via ZigBe from the valves and
thermostat.

>
>
>
>
Dave

On 21/09/2022 19:08, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 00:15:10 +0100, John Rumm
>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
>>>>> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
>>>>> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
>>>>> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
>>>>> but untidy.
>>>>
>>>> It can go anywhere you like - it does not need to be on show. It will
>>>> have a mains connection, and a wire to the call for heat input on the
>>>> boiler.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
>>> signal.
>>
>> The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>> the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>> enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>> that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.
>>
>>
>
> I may have fallen over at the first hurdle.
>
> I've just received delivery of:
>
> https://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/drayton-wiser-thermostat-kit-1---one-channel-heat-hub/
>
> Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1 - One Channel Heat Hub
>
> I may have mentioned that the boiler is right at the back of the
> garage extension. The lounge is at the front of the property, and the
> internet hub is in the hall the other side of the lounge, but still a
> little way (another room, external wall) from the boiler.
>
> With my smartphone I do not get wireless connectivity from the boiler
> room to the internet hub in the hall.
>
> If I've understood the system correctly the Drayton room thermostat
> has a wireless connection using Zigbee but if WiFi won't reach then
> neither will Zigbee.
>
> It will also require WiFi from the smartphone to the hub to program.
>
> Thus unless I can come up with a better solution I'll end up putting
> the thermostat in the utility room and standing in the utility room to
> program it all, not ideal.
>
>> The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
>> with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
>> can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.
>>
>
> Do you mean just connect 240v across the controller terminals before
> trying to connect to the boiler? I thought it would need the boiler's
> connectivity to operate.
>
>
>

maybe their smart plug as a range extender?????
https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk/sites/default/files/documents/6515113_a.pdf

£39 from toolstation but currently out of stock
https://www.toolstation.com/drayton-wiser-plug/p80509

>

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:

>On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:

>>
>> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
>> signal.
>
>The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.
>
>The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
>with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
>can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.
>

I've received the Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1, and whilst deciding
how to finalise where the hub will finish I've wired it up
temporarily.

>
>>> Remove the link wire between pins 1 and 2 on the boiler.
>>> Wire the Neutral pin on the boiler to the N pin on the stat.
>>> Wire pin 1 on the boiler to pin L on the stat
>>> Wire pin 2 on the boiler to pin 3 on the stat
>>>
>>
>> Yes, that's what's imprinted on the cover of the boiler control panel.
>
>good, that is reassuring.
>

My temporary setup doesn't work. I run the App which says to press
once the Setup button, a green light is supposed to come on but
nothing happens.

It's hard to see that I can have done anything wrong but then again.

A photo of the connections is at:

https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjA8aE8

The notes I've written on the image can be read if zoomed in.

Any clues? Faulty unit? Any other way to test it?

--
AnthonyL

Why ever wait to finish a job before starting the next?

On 21/09/2022 19:08, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 00:15:10 +0100, John Rumm
>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Boiler is on the back wall and within a frame hardboard cupboard. It
>>>>> would be convenient to have the receiver unit to the left mounted on
>>>>> the hardboard and so convenient to control panel. It would be about
>>>>> 8" away from the boiler. It could go to the outside of the cupboard
>>>>> but untidy.
>>>>
>>>> It can go anywhere you like - it does not need to be on show. It will
>>>> have a mains connection, and a wire to the call for heat input on the
>>>> boiler.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
>>> signal.
>>
>> The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>> the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>> enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>> that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.
>>
>>
>
> I may have fallen over at the first hurdle.
>
> I've just received delivery of:
>
> https://www.plumbnation.co.uk/site/drayton-wiser-thermostat-kit-1---one-channel-heat-hub/
>
> Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1 - One Channel Heat Hub

OK that looks a bit different from the Hive arrangement since the hub
bit that talks to a network, and the receiver bit that talks to the
boiler would appear to be in one unit rather than two. It also does not
appear to have a wired ethernet option, only wifi.

(note I have not had much chance to look at the manuals in detail)

> I may have mentioned that the boiler is right at the back of the
> garage extension. The lounge is at the front of the property, and the
> internet hub is in the hall the other side of the lounge, but still a
> little way (another room, external wall) from the boiler.
>
> With my smartphone I do not get wireless connectivity from the boiler
> room to the internet hub in the hall.
>
> If I've understood the system correctly the Drayton room thermostat
> has a wireless connection using Zigbee but if WiFi won't reach then
> neither will Zigbee.

Not always a given - zigbee has a theoretically smaller range, but is a
more robust protocol. If should do up to 20m ok.

> It will also require WiFi from the smartphone to the hub to program.

There is probably not a direct wifi connection between the hub and the
phone. Both will need to connect to your router, and that will be the
path between them.

> Thus unless I can come up with a better solution I'll end up putting
> the thermostat in the utility room and standing in the utility room to
> program it all, not ideal.

It sounds like the hub needs to connect to the boiler via the thermostat
input. In many places that already have a wall mounted stat, that will
often have a standardised back plate, that would allow the hub to be
mounted on instead of the stat.

Since you don't have a wired stat at all at the moment, you don't have
that easy option, but on the bright side, you are also not constrained
by its current location either.

>> The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
>> with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
>> can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.
>>
>
> Do you mean just connect 240v across the controller terminals before
> trying to connect to the boiler?

Yes. Power to the hub should allow it to join the wifi, and hence talk
to the phone, as well as to establish a zigbee connection to the room stat.

> I thought it would need the boiler's
> connectivity to operate.

Not really - all it is doing is sending a signal to the boiler to tell
it to fire or not - it won't actually care if the boiler is listening or
connected!

In the final setup you would probably wire the hub such that it draws
power from its connection to the boiler, as well as feeding the "call
for heat" signal back down the same cable. However for testing purposes
it only needs power - would could from a plug and a length of flex.

So if you find a place in the room where the hub can see the wifi, even
if it is the other side of the room from the boiler, then the install is
still quite easy - one three core flex from the boiler to the hub - but
all in the same room.

If you can't get wifi at all in the room, then you would have a choice
of moving the hub to a room where it can see wifi, but having a longer
cable route back to the boiler, or fixing the wifi so that it works in
the boiler room.

If it were me, I would fix the wifi so that it works perfectly in every
room in the house, since that would make the wiring easier for the hub,
but also bring other benefits for other uses.

Obviously getting decent wifi is a whole other rabbit hole to bolt down,
but we can look at that if you want to anyway, or can't find a way of
getting wifi access to the hub.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 22/09/2022 11:26, AnthonyL wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>
>> On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
>>> signal.
>>
>> The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>> the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>> enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>> that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.
>>
>> The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
>> with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
>> can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.
>>
>
> I've received the Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1, and whilst deciding
> how to finalise where the hub will finish I've wired it up
> temporarily.
>
>>
>>>> Remove the link wire between pins 1 and 2 on the boiler.
>>>> Wire the Neutral pin on the boiler to the N pin on the stat.
>>>> Wire pin 1 on the boiler to pin L on the stat
>>>> Wire pin 2 on the boiler to pin 3 on the stat
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, that's what's imprinted on the cover of the boiler control panel.
>>
>> good, that is reassuring.
>>
>
> My temporary setup doesn't work. I run the App which says to press
> once the Setup button, a green light is supposed to come on but
> nothing happens.
>
> It's hard to see that I can have done anything wrong but then again.
>
> A photo of the connections is at:
>
> https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjA8aE8

Does that two core flex just connect from the two terminals in the
boiler to the two terminals on the hub?

If so, then I would not expect it to work at all, since the stat
terminals on the boiler will be one 240V output, and one 240V input. The
stat is expected to either look like a switch - joining those two
connections when it wants heat, or it can just act like like a selective
mains supply - supplying 240V down one wire when it wants heat (i.e.
that 240V does not *have* to be sourced from the other terminal).

Neither of those terminals would look like a proper neutral. So the hub
would probably not have power at all.

> The notes I've written on the image can be read if zoomed in.
>
> Any clues? Faulty unit? Any other way to test it?
Yup, Personally I would start without even involving the boiler by
connecting the L & N on the backplate of the hub to a flex plugged into
the mains with a 3A fuse in the plug. That should allow the hub to power
up, and you can get it talking to the network, and then it can talk to
the app.

However if you want to do it with the boiler connected, then you need a
three wire connection from the boiler to the hub. Basically L & N out to
the stat, and then call for heat back from the stat to the boiler.

So looking at that boiler connection:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:BaxiStatConnector.png

The N will need to come from the second connection down on the boiler -
you can add your wire to either side of that chockie block style
connector into the "Neutral Blue" terminal on the left, or the "b" on
the right.

The L could come from either the fused side of the top connection - i.e.
the "br" terminal, or from the terminal labelled "1" on the connector.

Lastly you need to connection from the hub (pin 3 probably) - the call
for heat into the boiler - the one labelled 2

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 22/09/2022 13:07, John Rumm wrote:
> On 22/09/2022 11:26, AnthonyL wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 14:36:00 +0100, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/09/2022 10:29, AnthonyL wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought I saw a note to ensure no interference from the wireless
>>>> signal.
>>>
>>> The receiver will need to be able to establish a radio connection with
>>> the stat controller / sensor. So not sticking it inside a metal
>>> enclosure or very close to a RF noise generating source will help with
>>> that. So not right beside a microwave over for example.
>>>
>>> The obvious thing to do is wire it up to a power supply, and test it
>>> with the stat in the places you are likely to use it, and see that it
>>> can communicate, before actually screwing the receiver to a wall.
>>>
>>
>> I've received the Drayton Wiser Thermostat Kit 1, and whilst deciding
>> how to finalise where the hub will finish I've wired it up
>> temporarily.
>>
>>>
>>>>> Remove the link wire between pins 1 and 2 on the boiler.
>>>>> Wire the Neutral pin on the boiler to the N pin on the stat.
>>>>> Wire pin 1 on the boiler to pin L on the stat
>>>>> Wire pin 2 on the boiler to pin 3 on the stat
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that's what's imprinted on the cover of the boiler control panel.
>>>
>>> good, that is reassuring.
>>>
>>
>> My temporary setup doesn't work.  I run the App which says to press
>> once the Setup button, a green light is supposed to come on but
>> nothing happens.
>>
>> It's hard to see that I can have done anything wrong but then again.
>>
>> A photo of the connections is at:
>>
>> https://flic.kr/s/aHBqjA8aE8
>
> Does that two core flex just connect from the two terminals in the
> boiler to the two terminals on the hub?
>
> If so, then I would not expect it to work at all, since the stat
> terminals on the boiler will be one 240V output, and one 240V input.

If calling for heat then the switch would close and both terminals would
be at the same voltage.

> The
> stat is expected to either look like a switch - joining those two
> connections when it wants heat, or it can just act like like a selective
> mains supply - supplying 240V down one wire when it wants heat (i.e.
> that 240V does not *have* to be sourced from the other terminal).
>
> Neither of those terminals would look like a proper neutral. So the hub
> would probably not have power at all.

I would expect mains to go into Pins 1 & 2?
https://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/sites/default/files/6490238_N_A4_Web-compressed.pdf