On 14/11/2022 22:23, billy bookcase wrote:
> "Davey" <davey@example.invalid> wrote in message news:tku50q$1qmtl$1@dont-email.me...

>> I wanted to increase my credit card limit. I went into online banking,
>> followed the instructions, and signed up for credit limit increase
>> offers by e-mail. That was 6 months ago.
>
> At a guess, you pay off your credit card balance in full every month ?
>
> To the CC companies you're known as a "deadbeat" and apart from defaulters
> you're their worst type of customer as they can't gouge you for interest
> every month. Sure they still get merchant fees but they mainly cover costs
> on charge free cards; its the interest charges they're interested in.
>
> Many such customers have actually had their credit limits reduced.

I've only had one of mine reduced. Bank of Scotland (which used to be
affiliated to the MyTravel group of travel agents) reduced from £2500 to
£1000 a while ago.

I would have thought a high credit limit would encourage people to
overspend or buy a car or something that they can't pay off in one go.

--
Max Demian

On 15/11/2022 13:12, Max Demian wrote:
> On 15/11/2022 11:32, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 15/11/2022 01:39, Davey wrote:
>>> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 23:12:28 +0000
>>> Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> You're not. There are other banks. Mine doesn't stipulate a smart
>>>> phone, even though I have one.
>>>>
>>>>> It's similar to being forced to have a smart meter, and we have
>>>>> recently seen how they can be mis-used by the owning supplier.
>>>>
>>>> Please do provide examples.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/surge-smart-meters-remotely-switched-expensive-pay-as-you-go/
>>
>> Isn't that going to be cheaper for the customer than the cost of a
>> warrant and further court costs? At least the supply doesn't get cut off.
>>
>> I would hardly calling it mis-use unless you think some people should
>> get their energy for free?
>
> It is misuse if the person isn't properly told it's happening and how to
> credit the meter.

I take your point that the information may not have been put over
effectively. However, the method of debt repayment under the old way
would have been to similarly increase the tariff so an excess of funds
would pay off an old debt. You would have gone to your PayPoint paid
your money where the new tariff details and money would be transferred
onto your key so the new tariff would be transferred to your meter.

In short I don't see the difference between new and old way. Was it a
misuse then too? As I said before should customers not pay for the
energy that have used? The alternative is for the user to be cut-off,
and subject to court costs.

"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:tl02ti$22cbc$4@dont-email.me...
>>> mine doesn't have a coin slot
>>
>> You top up a card in a shop I believe same as with Oyster Cards on buses.
>
> Do all smart meters have a slot for a pre-payment card just in case they need to be
> switched?

No. When you buy credit in the shop and put it on the card, that amount is immediately
credited to your account,. And then as the meter measures the leccy you use, it phones
home and that money is immediately - in one nanosecond or less - taken from your account.

>
> Even if so, the user would presumably have to be sent the card and told how to use it.

ISTR seeing these prepayment cards being around for a while so maybe *those* meters
did have a slot or could be swiped
>
> I expect they just send a text message to a phone the user used to have or an email to
> a defunct address.

If so they're possibly in breach of some regulation or other. Not that anyone
cares of course. Which was maybe your point.

bb

On 14/11/2022 22:40, Davey wrote:

>
> A. I don't want to carry something around with me that contains lots of
> personal data. 'Phones get lost or stolen.

So don't carry it around. They do work indoors.

--
Reentrant

On 15/11/2022 08:53, Andy Burns wrote:
> Davey wrote:
>
>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/surge-smart-meters-remotely-switched-expensive-pay-as-you-go/
>>
>
> Try telling Tesco you can't afford any groceries and see if they let you
> keep taking some home anyway ...
>
>

Neighbours daughter works a couple of evening shifts in Asda
every week.

Almost every week someone tries to leave the store with a full
trolley of unpaid goods. They can't do anything until the
shoplifter actually leaves the store and then hope the
security guard can stop them. Only if the value of the goods is
more than £200 will the police do anything so in this case the
perps just bugger off and abandon the trolley.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 13:26:05 +0000
Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> > It is misuse if the person isn't properly told it's happening and
> > how to credit the meter.
>
> I take your point that the information may not have been put over
> effectively.
And that is the point, not to be muddied with other considerations.
--
Davey.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 10:32:35 +0000
alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On 15/11/2022 09:32, Davey wrote:
>
> >>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/surge-smart-meters-remotely-switched-expensive-pay-as-you-go/
> >>
> >> That's not misuse, that is doing what makes sense if the customer
> >> refused to pay what they owe.
> >
> > The issue was the failure of the companies to engage with the
> > customers according to the rules which they had agreed to.
>
> But not all customers. The various articles that I seen are
> suggesting all people transferred to pre-payment haven't been
> consulted beforehand whereas it's only a small minority of cases
> where no consultation has taken place. People objecting to being put
> on pre-payment because of debts is not the same as being switched
> over without any warning.
>

But it's the fact that some were transferred without the company going
through the correct procedure that is the point here.
--
Davey.

Davey wrote:

> Fredxx wrote:
>
>> Max Demian wrote:
>> >>> It is misuse if the person isn't properly told it's happening and
>>> how to credit the meter.
>>
>> I take your point that the information may not have been put over
>> effectively.
>
> And that is the point, not to be muddied with other considerations.

None of ofgem, uswitch, national energy action or the telegraph even guess at
how many of those 150,000 homes may have been inappropriately moved to pre-payment.

On 15/11/2022 15:16, Andy Burns wrote:
> Davey wrote:
>
>> Fredxx wrote:
>>
>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>> >>> It is misuse if the person isn't properly told it's happening and
>>>> how to credit the meter.
>>>
>>> I take your point that the information may not have been put over
>>> effectively.
>>
>> And that is the point, not to be muddied with other considerations.
>
> None of ofgem, uswitch, national energy action or the telegraph even
> guess at how many of those 150,000 homes may have been inappropriately
> moved to pre-payment.

Because the alternative would have been exactly the same except with
higher costs for the debtor.

Or do you still think certain people should get energy for free?

On 15/11/2022 15:31, Fredxx wrote:
> On 15/11/2022 15:16, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Davey wrote:
>>
>>> Fredxx wrote:
>>>
>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>> >>> It is misuse if the person isn't properly told it's happening and
>>>>> how to credit the meter.
>>>>
>>>> I take your point that the information may not have been put over
>>>> effectively.
>>>
>>> And that is the point, not to be muddied with other considerations.
>>
>> None of ofgem, uswitch, national energy action or the telegraph even
>> guess at how many of those 150,000 homes may have been inappropriately
>> moved to pre-payment.
>
> Because the alternative would have been exactly the same except with
> higher costs for the debtor.
>
> Or do you still think certain people should get energy for free?

Except that pre-payment can mean people being short of energy at times
of high demand or when their finances are temporarily low. Credit meters
allow the users to spread the cost over 12 months and even out those
problems.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 19:12:05 +1100, Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 10:47:56 +1100
> farter <tsruhf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 09:40:51 +1100, Davey <davey@example.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:22:27 +1100
>> > farter <tsruhf@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 06:30:34 +1100, Davey <davey@example.invalid>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > I wanted to increase my credit card limit. I went into online
>> >> > banking, followed the instructions, and signed up for credit
>> >> > limit increase offers by e-mail. That was 6 months ago. I
>> >> > repeated the process a couple of months ago, again nothing. So
>> >> > yesterday I went online again to try to sort this, and the
>> >> > chat-bot eventually told me that it could only be done using the
>> >> > HSBC mobile banking app. But I don't have a 'smartphone', and my
>> >> > PC would not download the 'app', not surprisingly, as it's not a
>> >> > 'phone. I eventually talked to somebody, who told me to call the
>> >> > landline after 9:30 today.
>> >> > This morning, I did so, spent 35 minutes listening to the inane
>> >> > muzak, and eventually talked to somebody with a mild Peninsular
>> >> > accent. He tried to activate the telephone credit card limit
>> >> > increase process, but apparently it doesn't happen now, all such
>> >> > applications are expected to be on the mobile app. He connected
>> >> > me to the Credit Card Dept, who answered in the form of a nice
>> >> > English voiced girl. She listened to my problem, tried to
>> >> > activate the now-defunct telephone process, and then said that
>> >> > they now officially did not do this over the 'phone, everyone is
>> >> > supposed to use the mobile 'app' . But they would do it for me!
>> >> > She took me through a whole credit application procedure, then
>> >> > finally said that she would call me with the decision, yeah or
>> >> > nay, within the next 24 hours.
>> >>
>> >> > However much you like computing, it is totally wrong to provide
>> >> > no app-less method of doing what is a perfectly normal and common
>> >> > banking procedure.
>> >>
>> >> But it does make sense for banks and other FIs to cut costs by
>> >> doing it like that
>> >> and the industry is very competitive.
>> >>
>> >> And it doesnt cost much to have one of the cheaper smartphones.
>>
>> > A. I don't want to carry something around with me that contains
>> > lots of personal data. 'Phones get lost or stolen.
>>
>> No one can get any personal data out of a phone that you don't put
>> personal data on. And the better phones don't allow your personal
>> data to be stolen from them even if they are lost or stolen.
>>
>> > B. I should not be forced to have a 'smartphone' to carry out basic
>> > banking operations which have no direct relationship to mobile
>> > telephony.
>>
>> No one is forcing you, you are free to use a bank that
>> has call centers and pay for the cost of running those.
>>
>> > It's similar to being forced to have a smart meter, and we have
>> > recently seen how they can be mis-used by the owning supplier.
>>
>> That is a lie.
>
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63554879

That's not MISUSE, that is doing what is entirely appropriate in that
situation.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 19:28:00 +1100, Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 08:20:50 +0000
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 15/11/2022 01:39, Davey wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/surge-smart-meters-remotely-switched-expensive-pay-as-you-go
>>
>> In the olden days those same people would have been put on a pay as
>> you go meter but would have taken a lot longer when the debt was
>> greater. They tend to be much more expensive because it's both the
>> cost of the electricity and paying off the unpaid debt for
>> electricity used in the past.
>>
>> You should go and find the Youtube video where a guy rants on about
>> the evils of smart meters. He has all the documentation and links for
>> every point he makes.
>> "Electricity cost twice as much after you have a smart meter fitted"
>> referring to a woman when suddenly found that on the smart meter
>> installation her previous meter was read for the first time in years
>> to find she owed thousands.
>> "Smart meters emit pulses causing cancer"
>> "They catch fire and blow up"
>> etc.
>>
>>
>
> True as that might be, and I am not denying it, it still does not excuse
> the companies from not following the rules about switching the meters
> remotely, after due consultation, etc etc. And how clearly is that
> possibility explained in the T&Cs? I bet it's not brought up in any
> conversation about the meters when they are being discussed
> before installation. "Oh, by the way, we can switch your meter to a
> Pay-As-You-Go meter if we feel you deserve it".

If you don't pay what you owe us, actually. That's not misuse.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 20:32:17 +1100, Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 19:37:57 +1100
> farter <tsruhf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 12:39:49 +1100, Davey <davey@example.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 23:12:28 +0000
>> > Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 14/11/2022 22:40, Davey wrote:
>> >> > On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:22:27 +1100
>> >> > farter <tsruhf@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 06:30:34 +1100, Davey
>> >> >> <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> I wanted to increase my credit card limit. I went into online
>> >> >>> banking, followed the instructions, and signed up for credit
>> >> >>> limit increase offers by e-mail. That was 6 months ago. I
>> >> >>> repeated the process a couple of months ago, again nothing. So
>> >> >>> yesterday I went online again to try to sort this, and the
>> >> >>> chat-bot eventually told me that it could only be done using
>> >> >>> the HSBC mobile banking app. But I don't have a 'smartphone',
>> >> >>> and my PC would not download the 'app', not surprisingly, as
>> >> >>> it's not a 'phone. I eventually talked to somebody, who told
>> >> >>> me to call the landline after 9:30 today.
>> >> >>> This morning, I did so, spent 35 minutes listening to the inane
>> >> >>> muzak, and eventually talked to somebody with a mild Peninsular
>> >> >>> accent. He tried to activate the telephone credit card limit
>> >> >>> increase process, but apparently it doesn't happen now, all
>> >> >>> such applications are expected to be on the mobile app. He
>> >> >>> connected me to the Credit Card Dept, who answered in the form
>> >> >>> of a nice English voiced girl. She listened to my problem,
>> >> >>> tried to activate the now-defunct telephone process, and then
>> >> >>> said that they now officially did not do this over the 'phone,
>> >> >>> everyone is supposed to use the mobile 'app' . But they would
>> >> >>> do it for me! She took me through a whole credit application
>> >> >>> procedure, then finally said that she would call me with the
>> >> >>> decision, yeah or nay, within the next 24 hours.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> However much you like computing, it is totally wrong to
>> >> >>> provide no app-less method of doing what is a perfectly normal
>> >> >>> and common banking procedure.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But it does make sense for banks and other FIs to cut costs by
>> >> >> doing it like that
>> >> >> and the industry is very competitive.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And it doesnt cost much to have one of the cheaper
>> >> >> smartphones.
>> >> >
>> >> > A. I don't want to carry something around with me that contains
>> >> > lots of personal data. 'Phones get lost or stolen.
>> >> > B. I should not be forced to have a 'smartphone' to carry out
>> >> > basic banking operations which have no direct relationship to
>> >> > mobile telephony.
>> >>
>> >> You're not. There are other banks. Mine doesn't stipulate a smart
>> >> phone, even though I have one.
>> >>
>> >> > It's similar to being forced to have a smart meter, and we have
>> >> > recently seen how they can be mis-used by the owning supplier.
>> >>
>> >> Please do provide examples.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/surge-smart-meters-remotely-switched-expensive-pay-as-you-go/
>>
>> That's not misuse, that is doing what makes sense if the customer
>> refused to pay what they owe.
>
> The issue was the failure of the companies to engage with the customers
> according to the rules which they had agreed to.

No evidence of them having agreed to any rules.

On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 22:55:31 +1100, Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 22:40:51 +0000
> Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> A. I don't want to carry something around with me that contains lots
>> of personal data. 'Phones get lost or stolen.

> Indeed,

Fraid not. Your personal data is safe on a lost or stolen
phone with the best smartphones.

> and the small print almost certainly says that all the data on
> the phone actually belong to Google or Apple.

Wrong with Apple.

> I have a smartphone, but
> the only personal data on it are a few phone numbers, not more than a
> dozen. It's PAYG, so I don't do Internet over the phone, only wifi. I
> don't do anything involving money on it.

More fool you. Your money is MUCH more secure when you pay
using your phone instead of using a contactless card or cash.

You don't have to worry about modified card machines that
steal your details either because with applepay no checkout
terminal ever gets anything that can be used more than once.

>> B. I should not be forced to have a 'smartphone' to carry out basic
>> banking operations which have no direct relationship to mobile
>> telephony.
>
> Certainly not. At least one bank will remain sane enough to see that
> cutting employees and other overheads can increase profits, but only if
> it actually has any customers left.

The absolute vast bulk of customers won't leave when there is no longer
a call center to call if you want to increase your credit limit.

On Wed, 16 Nov 2022 02:02:57 +1100, Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 10:32:35 +0000
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 15/11/2022 09:32, Davey wrote:
>>
>> >>>
>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/surge-smart-meters-remotely-switched-expensive-pay-as-you-go/
>> >>
>> >> That's not misuse, that is doing what makes sense if the customer
>> >> refused to pay what they owe.
>> >
>> > The issue was the failure of the companies to engage with the
>> > customers according to the rules which they had agreed to.
>>
>> But not all customers. The various articles that I seen are
>> suggesting all people transferred to pre-payment haven't been
>> consulted beforehand whereas it's only a small minority of cases
>> where no consultation has taken place. People objecting to being put
>> on pre-payment because of debts is not the same as being switched
>> over without any warning.
>>
>
> But it's the fact that some were transferred without the company going
> through the correct procedure that is the point here.

That's not misuse, that's not doing it correctly.

On 15/11/2022 17:01, SteveW wrote:
> On 15/11/2022 15:31, Fredxx wrote:
>> On 15/11/2022 15:16, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Davey wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fredxx wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>> >>> It is misuse if the person isn't properly told it's happening and
>>>>>> how to credit the meter.
>>>>>
>>>>> I take your point that the information may not have been put over
>>>>> effectively.
>>>>
>>>> And that is the point, not to be muddied with other considerations.
>>>
>>> None of ofgem, uswitch, national energy action or the telegraph even
>>> guess at how many of those 150,000 homes may have been
>>> inappropriately moved to pre-payment.
>>
>> Because the alternative would have been exactly the same except with
>> higher costs for the debtor.
>>
>> Or do you still think certain people should get energy for free?
>
> Except that pre-payment can mean people being short of energy at times
> of high demand or when their finances are temporarily low. Credit meters
> allow the users to spread the cost over 12 months and even out those
> problems.

In an ideal world I would agree with you.

But it's worth remembering that pre-payment meters are usually put in
precisely because those users weren't/aren't able "to spread the cost
over 12 months and even out those problems".

On 15/11/2022 13:44, billy bookcase wrote:
> "Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:tl02ti$22cbc$4@dont-email.me...
>>>> mine doesn't have a coin slot
>>>
>>> You top up a card in a shop I believe same as with Oyster Cards on buses.
>>
>> Do all smart meters have a slot for a pre-payment card just in case they need to be
>> switched?
>
> No. When you buy credit in the shop and put it on the card, that amount is immediately
> credited to your account,. And then as the meter measures the leccy you use, it phones
> home and that money is immediately - in one nanosecond or less - taken from your account.

But you'd have to have the card. They might have sent it to the wrong
address, or you might have been sent it before and lost it as you
wouldn't need it if you pay quarterly bills. Or wouldn't know how to use
it if you haven't been told.

>> Even if so, the user would presumably have to be sent the card and told how to use it.
>
> ISTR seeing these prepayment cards being around for a while so maybe *those* meters
> did have a slot or could be swiped

Probably for actual non-smart pre-payment meters that the user knows he has.

--
Max Demian

On 15/11/2022 20:13, farter wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 20:32:17 +1100, Davey <davey@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 19:37:57 +1100
>> farter <tsruhf@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 15 Nov 2022 12:39:49 +1100, Davey <davey@example.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 14 Nov 2022 23:12:28 +0000
>>> > Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:
>>> >> On 14/11/2022 22:40, Davey wrote:

>>> >> > It's similar to being forced to have a smart meter, and we have
>>> >> > recently seen how they can be mis-used by the owning supplier.
>>> >>
>>> >> Please do provide examples.

>>> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/surge-smart-meters-remotely-switched-expensive-pay-as-you-go/
>>>
>>> That's not misuse, that is doing what makes sense if the customer
>>> refused to pay what they owe.
>>
>> The issue was the failure of the companies to engage with the customers
>> according to the rules which they had agreed to.
>
> No evidence of them having agreed to any rules.

You don't have to agree to rules; you can have them imposed on you.
There are lots of laws I haven't "agreed to".

--
Max Demian

On 16/11/2022 11:29, Fredxx wrote:
> On 15/11/2022 17:01, SteveW wrote:
>> On 15/11/2022 15:31, Fredxx wrote:
>>> On 15/11/2022 15:16, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Davey wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fredxx wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Max Demian wrote:
>>>>>> >>> It is misuse if the person isn't properly told it's happening and
>>>>>>> how to credit the meter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I take your point that the information may not have been put over
>>>>>> effectively.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that is the point, not to be muddied with other considerations.
>>>>
>>>> None of ofgem, uswitch, national energy action or the telegraph even
>>>> guess at how many of those 150,000 homes may have been
>>>> inappropriately moved to pre-payment.
>>>
>>> Because the alternative would have been exactly the same except with
>>> higher costs for the debtor.
>>>
>>> Or do you still think certain people should get energy for free?
>>
>> Except that pre-payment can mean people being short of energy at times
>> of high demand or when their finances are temporarily low. Credit
>> meters allow the users to spread the cost over 12 months and even out
>> those problems.
>
> In an ideal world I would agree with you.
>
> But it's worth remembering that pre-payment meters are usually put in
> precisely because those users weren't/aren't able "to spread the cost
> over 12 months and even out those problems".

And pre-payment simply makes that worse, with higher per unit charges
and simply cutting you off if you have no money available that week.