On 24/01/2022 19:23, siwilson wrote:
>
> I mentioned I was working on this before but didn't post a screenshot.
> Took me a while to set it up and it was quite the learning curve, but it
> kept me occupied for a while. Also expensive because it led me to go out
> and buy a new fridge/freezer, and a fancy new induction hob.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/qXvBNMcCi8YrKAza6

I must've missed your initial mention. Which system are you using for that?

--
Eddie eddie@deguello.org

On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 17:16:45 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson
<olsonm@tiny.invalid> wrote:

>>> PS I had a similar experience after tracking the power consumption
>>> of my old fridge using a Kill-A-Watt device. I'll probably recoup
>>> the cost of the new fridge in electricity savings in 50 years or so.

>> 'Fridge payback was easy to calculate and was ~3 years. Can't remember
>> the term but the compressor in the new one has some kind or proportional
>> control which will no doubt fail after 2 years 11 months.

>Inverter? We bought an LG on the strength of good experiences with our
>LG dishwasher and LG clothes washer. I think the compressor is also a
>"linear" design instead of a rotary vane type.
>
>It's pretty quiet but probably not as quiet as some old school fridges,
>that are virtually silent.

I bought an old american-style (2 door) fridge second hand when I
moved here for a 100 quid. It's pretty good but a) probably costs a
lot to run (I don't dare check) and b) is bloody noisy.
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 10:46:34 +0000, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>I bought an old american-style (2 door) fridge second hand when I
>moved here for a 100 quid. It's pretty good but a) probably costs a
>lot to run (I don't dare check) and b) is bloody noisy.

Best Fridge I ever had was the one in our Engelberg apartment. An old,
1980s I think, green GE thing. Traditional layout fridge-freezer, but
very wide and deep, so actually a lot of space. Efficiency would have
been something like G--, I'm sure, but id did a great job.

Was slightly disappointed when Jonas and Lotta bought the place,
fridge included, then remodelled the kitchen after a few months but
didn't let us know until later otherwise I'd have taken the fridge off
them to use it free-standing here.

Very retro now, and frankly life's too short to worry about efficiency
- I'm sure that keeping an old one going for another few years would
esily offset the money and carbon costs of manufacturing, delivering
and installing a new one.

(or vice-versa, YKWIM).

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 10:46:34 +0000, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jan 2022 17:16:45 -0000 (UTC), Mark Olson
><olsonm@tiny.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>> PS I had a similar experience after tracking the power consumption
>>>> of my old fridge using a Kill-A-Watt device. I'll probably recoup
>>>> the cost of the new fridge in electricity savings in 50 years or so.
>
>>> 'Fridge payback was easy to calculate and was ~3 years. Can't remember
>>> the term but the compressor in the new one has some kind or proportional
>>> control which will no doubt fail after 2 years 11 months.
>
>>Inverter? We bought an LG on the strength of good experiences with our
>>LG dishwasher and LG clothes washer. I think the compressor is also a
>>"linear" design instead of a rotary vane type.
>>
>>It's pretty quiet but probably not as quiet as some old school fridges,
>>that are virtually silent.
>
>I bought an old american-style (2 door) fridge second hand when I
>moved here for a 100 quid. It's pretty good but a) probably costs a
>lot to run (I don't dare check) and b) is bloody noisy.

Never did a proper analysis, but when we were away from the Scottish
house, leaving only the fridge/freezer running, the electricity
consumption was about 30% of the norm.

Here we have a new dual door American style unit (Samsung) and I can't
see any significant consumption from either that or the chest freezer.

--

Pete
Garage vacancy now filled, N+1 incremented accordingly
F800R

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:50:18 +0100, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:

>frankly life's too short to worry about efficiency
>- I'm sure that keeping an old one going for another few years would
>esily offset the money and carbon costs of manufacturing, delivering
>and installing a new one.

This has been my working assumption. However, Simon Wilson said up
there that he'd done the calcs and a new fridge paid for itself in 3
years.

Let's say he spend 500 quid. That means it used £166 a year *less*
electricity that his old one. Which strikes me as not quite
believable.

Simon - can you give us the numbers, please?
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 26/01/2022 16:07, Champ wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:50:18 +0100, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:
>
>> frankly life's too short to worry about efficiency
>> - I'm sure that keeping an old one going for another few years would
>> esily offset the money and carbon costs of manufacturing, delivering
>> and installing a new one.
>
> This has been my working assumption. However, Simon Wilson said up
> there that he'd done the calcs and a new fridge paid for itself in 3
> years.
>
> Let's say he spend 500 quid. That means it used £166 a year *less*
> electricity that his old one. Which strikes me as not quite
> believable.
>
> Simon - can you give us the numbers, please?

£500? For a fridge? Are you mad[e of money]?

On 26/01/2022 16:07, Champ wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:50:18 +0100, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:
>
>> frankly life's too short to worry about efficiency
>> - I'm sure that keeping an old one going for another few years would
>> esily offset the money and carbon costs of manufacturing, delivering
>> and installing a new one.
>
> This has been my working assumption. However, Simon Wilson said up
> there that he'd done the calcs and a new fridge paid for itself in 3
> years.
>
> Let's say he spend 500 quid. That means it used £166 a year *less*
> electricity that his old one. Which strikes me as not quite
> believable.
>
> Simon - can you give us the numbers, please?

Hmm. I can't remember the exact calc.

From: https://photos.app.goo.gl/UCpiUmmECwvv7SzG8 you can quite clearly
see when we installed the new one. (Ain't data great?)

Old fridge ~ 10kWh every 3 days, or 1216 kwh/year ~ 304 quid
New fridge ~ 10kWh every 24 days or 152 kwh/year ~ 38 quid

Cost of new fridge was about 700 quid, and electricity is going up quite
steeply so it might be even less than 3 years.

--
/Simon

On 26/01/2022 08:54, Eddie wrote:
> On 24/01/2022 19:23, siwilson wrote:
>>
>> I mentioned I was working on this before but didn't post a screenshot.
>> Took me a while to set it up and it was quite the learning curve, but
>> it kept me occupied for a while. Also expensive because it led me to
>> go out and buy a new fridge/freezer, and a fancy new induction hob.
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/qXvBNMcCi8YrKAza6
>
> I must've missed your initial mention. Which system are you using for that?
>

It's a bunch of energy monitoring sonoff type plugs and relays, flashed
with Tasmota. (jfgi, Tasmota is really impressive). <cracks fingers,
opens buzzword dictionary> They send messages over WiFi/mqtt to an RPi 4
that's running telegraf/innfluxDB/grafana all in docker containers. I
made the dashboard myself, took a fair bit of fettling. It still has a
few bugs.

--
/Simon

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 17:56:19 +0000, Mike Fleming <mike@tauzero.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 26/01/2022 16:07, Champ wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:50:18 +0100, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:
>>
>>> frankly life's too short to worry about efficiency
>>> - I'm sure that keeping an old one going for another few years would
>>> esily offset the money and carbon costs of manufacturing, delivering
>>> and installing a new one.
>>
>> This has been my working assumption. However, Simon Wilson said up
>> there that he'd done the calcs and a new fridge paid for itself in 3
>> years.
>>
>> Let's say he spend 500 quid. That means it used £166 a year *less*
>> electricity that his old one. Which strikes me as not quite
>> believable.
>>
>> Simon - can you give us the numbers, please?
>
>£500? For a fridge? Are you mad[e of money]?

Jeesuz. I pay almost that much for the little[1] Ikea ones I've put in
our studio apartments. A proper one with built-in ice and cold water
dispenser is going to be at least twice that, probably more like three
times.

[1] Not _that_ little, TBF, but built-in under worktop is what I mean.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 26/01/2022 18:27, siwilson wrote:
> On 26/01/2022 16:07, Champ wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:50:18 +0100, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:
>>
>>> frankly life's too short to worry about efficiency
>>> - I'm sure that keeping an old one going for another few years would
>>> esily offset the money and carbon costs of manufacturing, delivering
>>> and installing a new one.
>>
>> This has been my working assumption.  However, Simon Wilson said up
>> there that he'd done the calcs and a new fridge paid for itself in 3
>> years.
>>
>> Let's say he spend 500 quid.  That means it used £166 a year *less*
>> electricity that his old one.  Which strikes me as not quite
>> believable.
>>
>> Simon - can you give us the numbers, please?
>
> Hmm. I can't remember the exact calc.
>
> From: https://photos.app.goo.gl/UCpiUmmECwvv7SzG8 you can quite clearly
> see when we installed the new one. (Ain't data great?)
>
>
> Old fridge ~ 10kWh every 3 days, or 1216 kwh/year ~ 304 quid
> New fridge ~ 10kWh every 24 days or 152 kwh/year  ~ 38 quid
>
> Cost of new fridge was about 700 quid, and electricity is going up quite
> steeply so it might be even less than 3 years.
>

That is actually quite interesting, and startling.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

Ace wrote:

> > £500? For a fridge? Are you mad[e of money]?
>
> Jeesuz. I pay almost that much for the little[1] Ikea ones I've put in
> our studio apartments. A proper one with built-in ice and cold water
> dispenser is going to be at least twice that, probably more like three
> times.

Exactly, I bought a Beko (not a high end make) six years ago and that
was over a grand.

Which, incidentally, is becoming quite noisey. Better start saving
up...

--
Simon

On Wednesday, 26 January 2022 at 22:13:04 UTC, sweller wrote:

> Exactly, I bought a Beko (not a high end make) six years ago and that
> was over a grand.
>
> Which, incidentally, is becoming quite noisey. Better start saving
> up...

I've quite liked the Samsung ones but the most recent I bought was
LG. About four years ago.

Both Samsungs lasted close to ten years each, one got damaged
and the other stopped defrosting for a second time and since it
was tatty I couldn't be bothered to repair it.

Mike Fleming <mike@tauzero.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26/01/2022 16:07, Champ wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 12:50:18 +0100, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:
>>
>>> frankly life's too short to worry about efficiency
>>> - I'm sure that keeping an old one going for another few years would
>>> esily offset the money and carbon costs of manufacturing, delivering
>>> and installing a new one.
>>
>> This has been my working assumption. However, Simon Wilson said up
>> there that he'd done the calcs and a new fridge paid for itself in 3
>> years.
>>
>> Let's say he spend 500 quid. That means it used £166 a year *less*
>> electricity that his old one. Which strikes me as not quite
>> believable.
>>
>> Simon - can you give us the numbers, please?
>
> £500? For a fridge? Are you mad[e of money]?

I think the budget LG one we bought, with french doors, but no water/ice
dispenser on the front (it does have a built in icemaker which I've not
hooked up) was right about $1k.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, Vespa Ciao

On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 18:27:12 +0000, siwilson
<siwilson@nodamnspam.hotmail.com> wrote:

>> However, Simon Wilson said up
>> there that he'd done the calcs and a new fridge paid for itself in 3
>> years.
>>
>> Let's say he spend 500 quid. That means it used £166 a year *less*
>> electricity that his old one. Which strikes me as not quite
>> believable.
>>
>> Simon - can you give us the numbers, please?

>From: https://photos.app.goo.gl/UCpiUmmECwvv7SzG8 you can quite clearly
>see when we installed the new one. (Ain't data great?)
>
>
>Old fridge ~ 10kWh every 3 days, or 1216 kwh/year ~ 304 quid
>New fridge ~ 10kWh every 24 days or 152 kwh/year ~ 38 quid

Wow! WOW! That is a *huge* difference in consumption!!!
<glum> I might have to put the meter on my current old noisy
monstrosity

--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 26/01/2022 18:35, siwilson wrote:
> On 26/01/2022 08:54, Eddie wrote:
>> On 24/01/2022 19:23, siwilson wrote:
>>>
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/qXvBNMcCi8YrKAza6
>>
>> I must've missed your initial mention. Which system are you using for
>> that?
>
> It's a bunch of energy monitoring sonoff type plugs and relays, flashed
> with Tasmota. (jfgi, Tasmota is really impressive). <cracks fingers,
> opens buzzword dictionary> They send messages over WiFi/mqtt to an RPi 4
> that's running telegraf/innfluxDB/grafana all in docker containers. I
> made the dashboard myself, took a fair bit of fettling. It still has a
> few bugs.

Neat. I'll add it to my big list of things that I won't have time to do
until I retire. *sob*

--
Eddie eddie@deguello.org

On 27/01/2022 12:21, Champ wrote:

>
> Wow! WOW! That is a *huge* difference in consumption!!!
> <glum> I might have to put the meter on my current old noisy
> monstrosity
>
>

Yep, it surprised me too, which was why it the first item to be
replaced. It was an old Hotpoint fridge/freezer.

The hob, although the new one is a *much* nicer induction one [1], has
turned out not to have (noticably) saved anything at all.

[1] old one was ceramic type.

--
/Simon

siwilson wrote:
> The hob, although the new one is a *much* nicer induction one [1], has
> turned out not to have (noticably) saved anything at all.

I can't imagine why it would. If most energy is lost as heat, and a device's primary purpose is to be a heater, there's not much to gain. Most electric heaters, regardless of the mechanism, are considered 100% efficient.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 07:53:20 -0800 (PST), ogden <eldaifo@gmail.com>
wrote:

>siwilson wrote:
>> The hob, although the new one is a *much* nicer induction one [1], has
>> turned out not to have (noticably) saved anything at all.
>
>I can't imagine why it would. If most energy is lost as heat, and a device's primary purpose is to be a heater, there's not much to gain. Most electric heaters, regardless of the mechanism, are considered 100% efficient.

The benefit of induction is that energy is applied to the utensil, not
the cooking surface, with only a relatively small amount conducted
back to the hob surface. Should be marginally more efficient in
overall terms.

--

Pete
Garage vacancy now filled, N+1 incremented accordingly
F800R

Pete wrote:
> ogden <eld...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >siwilson wrote:
> >> The hob, although the new one is a *much* nicer induction one [1], has
> >> turned out not to have (noticably) saved anything at all.
> >
> >I can't imagine why it would. If most energy is lost as heat, and a
> >device's primary purpose is to be a heater, there's not much to gain.
> >Most electric heaters, regardless of the mechanism, are considered
> >100% efficient.
>
> The benefit of induction is that energy is applied to the utensil, not
> the cooking surface, with only a relatively small amount conducted
> back to the hob surface. Should be marginally more efficient in
> overall terms.

Marginally.

On 27/01/2022 17:50, ogden wrote:
> Pete wrote:
>> ogden <eld...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> siwilson wrote:
>>>> The hob, although the new one is a *much* nicer induction one [1], has
>>>> turned out not to have (noticably) saved anything at all.
>>>
>>> I can't imagine why it would. If most energy is lost as heat, and a
>>> device's primary purpose is to be a heater, there's not much to gain.
>>> Most electric heaters, regardless of the mechanism, are considered
>>> 100% efficient.
>>
>> The benefit of induction is that energy is applied to the utensil, not
>> the cooking surface, with only a relatively small amount conducted
>> back to the hob surface. Should be marginally more efficient in
>> overall terms.
>
> Marginally.

Perhaps. What I like about them is the 'rapid response' cf. more
conventional electric rings or hotplates.Not quite as good as gas -
'the heat that obeys you'. I only have a portable hob for 'camping'. It
won't be redundant even now we have a MH/CV that has 3 gas rings and an
oven. Induction hob on an extension lead where we have MHU to do Keith
Floyd impressions alfresco. Not in to BBQs and another gas bottle and
burner would be very much heavier.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
1937 Sunbeam Model 14 250 Sports
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:08:58 +0000, Pete Fisher
<peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/01/2022 17:50, ogden wrote:
>> Pete wrote:
>>> ogden <eld...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> siwilson wrote:
>>>>> The hob, although the new one is a *much* nicer induction one [1], has
>>>>> turned out not to have (noticably) saved anything at all.
>>>>
>>>> I can't imagine why it would. If most energy is lost as heat, and a
>>>> device's primary purpose is to be a heater, there's not much to gain.
>>>> Most electric heaters, regardless of the mechanism, are considered
>>>> 100% efficient.
>>>
>>> The benefit of induction is that energy is applied to the utensil, not
>>> the cooking surface, with only a relatively small amount conducted
>>> back to the hob surface. Should be marginally more efficient in
>>> overall terms.
>>
>> Marginally.
>
>Perhaps. What I like about them is the 'rapid response' cf. more
>conventional electric rings or hotplates.Not quite as good as gas -
>'the heat that obeys you'. I only have a portable hob for 'camping'. It
>won't be redundant even now we have a MH/CV that has 3 gas rings and an
>oven. Induction hob on an extension lead where we have MHU to do Keith
>Floyd impressions alfresco. Not in to BBQs and another gas bottle and
>burner would be very much heavier.

I'd like analog control - the digital buttons always seem to just miss
the point of a slow simmer, so I'm constantly moving up and down one
step. Gas has that advantage.

--

Pete
Garage vacancy now filled, N+1 incremented accordingly
F800R

On 27/01/2022 19:03, Pete wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:08:58 +0000, Pete Fisher
> <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 27/01/2022 17:50, ogden wrote:
>>> Pete wrote:
>>>> ogden <eld...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> siwilson wrote:
>>>>>> The hob, although the new one is a *much* nicer induction one [1], has
>>>>>> turned out not to have (noticably) saved anything at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't imagine why it would. If most energy is lost as heat, and a
>>>>> device's primary purpose is to be a heater, there's not much to gain.
>>>>> Most electric heaters, regardless of the mechanism, are considered
>>>>> 100% efficient.
>>>>
>>>> The benefit of induction is that energy is applied to the utensil, not
>>>> the cooking surface, with only a relatively small amount conducted
>>>> back to the hob surface. Should be marginally more efficient in
>>>> overall terms.
>>>
>>> Marginally.
>>
>> Perhaps. What I like about them is the 'rapid response' cf. more
>> conventional electric rings or hotplates.Not quite as good as gas -
>> 'the heat that obeys you'. I only have a portable hob for 'camping'. It
>> won't be redundant even now we have a MH/CV that has 3 gas rings and an
>> oven. Induction hob on an extension lead where we have MHU to do Keith
>> Floyd impressions alfresco. Not in to BBQs and another gas bottle and
>> burner would be very much heavier.
>
> I'd like analog control - the digital buttons always seem to just miss
> the point of a slow simmer, so I'm constantly moving up and down one
> step. Gas has that advantage.
>

Oh sure. Ours has power or temperature settings but I agree getting a
reliable slow simmer is tricky. Pan size and thickness can help, but I
don't go in for a lot of simmering when cooking outside. A flat bottomed
wok is very much a compromise, but OK for quickly knocking something up.
Pan frying a very fresh fillet of trout doesn't need a great deal of
heat finesse.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375, Moto Morini 2C/350
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
1937 Sunbeam Model 14 250 Sports
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 27/01/2022 19:03, Pete wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 18:08:58 +0000, Pete Fisher
> <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>

>
> I'd like analog control - the digital buttons always seem to just miss
> the point of a slow simmer, so I'm constantly moving up and down one
> step. Gas has that advantage.
>

Agreed. You can get induction stoves with knobs.

On Thu, 27 Jan 2022 14:21:14 +0000, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:

>> It's a bunch of energy monitoring sonoff type plugs and relays, flashed
>> with Tasmota. (jfgi, Tasmota is really impressive). <cracks fingers,
>> opens buzzword dictionary> They send messages over WiFi/mqtt to an RPi 4
>> that's running telegraf/innfluxDB/grafana all in docker containers. I
>> made the dashboard myself, took a fair bit of fettling. It still has a
>> few bugs.

>Neat. I'll add it to my big list of things that I won't have time to do
>until I retire. *sob*

<a retiree writes> It doesn't get much better....
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 26/01/2022 18:35, siwilson wrote:
> On 26/01/2022 08:54, Eddie wrote:
>> On 24/01/2022 19:23, siwilson wrote:
>>>
>>> I mentioned I was working on this before but didn't post a
>>> screenshot. Took me a while to set it up and it was quite the
>>> learning curve, but it kept me occupied for a while. Also expensive
>>> because it led me to go out and buy a new fridge/freezer, and a fancy
>>> new induction hob.
>>>
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/qXvBNMcCi8YrKAza6
>>
>> I must've missed your initial mention. Which system are you using for
>> that?
>>
>
> It's a bunch of energy monitoring sonoff type plugs and relays,

When you say "type", I presume you mean a cheaper make/brand? Because
looking at prices there is a balance between buying them and how much
you may end up saving.

The chepest sonof I am seeing is a tad under £10, and being a cheapskate
I'd just end up moving it around between devices.

What would be really neat, not that I can find one, would be an
extension lead so multple devices[1] can be measured by that.

[1] We never have enough sockets at all he major pinch points (TV/stero,
Server/PCs)

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/