alan_m wrote:

> £3.37 per kilowatt hour of reduction

Even the highest spike of wholesale electricity this week has only been
£0.88/kWh, so how do they think it's worthwhile paying nearly 4x that?

On 23 Jan 2023 at 14:48:40 GMT, Andy Burns wrote:

> alan_m wrote:
>
>> £3.37 per kilowatt hour of reduction
>
> Even the highest spike of wholesale electricity this week has only been
> £0.88/kWh, so how do they think it's worthwhile paying nearly 4x that?

IIUC correctly, the initiative is costed more along the lines of encouraging a
change in behaviour to both reduce consumption, and spread it around more
evenly to help use feed-in from renewables.

--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 23/01/2023 13:45, Ian Jackson wrote:

>
> http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
> For the past few weeks, the wind has been doing a fine job. It has been
> typically 40+%, and on several occasions over 50%. A few days ago I'm
> pretty sure it actually touched 50, but that might have been at a time
> when the total demand was unusually low, at around 25GW. In contrast,
> coal, gas etc has been doing little more than 10%. But now that the
> Christmas and New Year holiday period is over, and everyone's nose is
> back at industry's grindstone, and because that large lump of high
> pressure has taken residence over much of the UK, coal etc is now over 50%.
>

In general, the colder it got the lower wind speed!

> Heaven knows how we're ever going to fuel all those electrical vehicles!

And the swap from gas to all electric central heating.

--
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On 23/01/2023 10:41, NY wrote:
>
> As a matter of interest, would having solar panels with a battery
> isolate us from the effects of frequent 1-second power cuts on the mains
> supply? Every year, in the late summer / early autumn the village has a
> rash of brief power outages which have been variously attributed to
> overhanging tree branches shorting the HT feed or to exuberant cattle
> scratching themselves on wooden poles carrying HT. Or do solar panel
> installations cut the locally-generated power the instant that the mains
> feed is interrupted, and only restore the local power when the mains
> supply resumes (maybe plus a reboot time)?

You could have a configuration that would act as a glorified UPS but it
has to include complex load switching to isolate your house from the
grid before it can fire up. The default behaviour is that when the mains
grid goes down so do all the solar power inverters.

I doubt if it can respond in a couple of seconds so you are stuck with
any short glitches.

It was local generation affecting net load shedding calculations that
threw a spanner in the works when they had that big blackout one summer
after a lightning strike took out a generator.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 23:49:22 +1100, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.uk> wrote:

> On 23/01/2023 08:38, Martin Brown wrote:
>> On 23/01/2023 00:59, David wrote:
>>> Haven't seen anything about this recently, but it was a thing late
>>> November.
>> It is a hot topic today. They will pay you not to use electricity
>> tonight provided that you have a Smart meter (I do) and the right
>> supplier (very few) which I don't. It is a half cocked policy.
>
> I've chosen to stick with my standard meter.

> I'm tempted to switch everything on between 5 and 6pm, to offset those
> who have been persuaded to switch everything off!

Figures given you are such a cunt.

On 23/01/2023 13:45, Ian Jackson wrote:
> In message <c4essh1fhba2d4tpdk7ad5g9lah18so7bi@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg
> <me@privacy.net> writes
>> On 23 Jan 2023 00:59:22 GMT, David <wibble@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Haven't seen anything about this recently, but it was a thing late
>>> November.
>>>
>>> I still don't know why Economy 7 (if this still exists) doesn't do
>>> the job
>>> already.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave R
>>
>> E7 runs from midnight to 7AM. Peak electricity consumption is late
>> afternoon - early evening, which is the time that the discount is
>> running over. But you have to be able to show that you're using less
>> electricity than you usually do, i.e. you have to be on a smart meter.
>>
>> BBC red button also announced that three coal-fired power stations
>> have been asked to warm up. So much for relying on renewables, then.
>>
>
> http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
> For the past few weeks, the wind has been doing a fine job. It has been
> typically 40+%, and on several occasions over 50%. A few days ago I'm
> pretty sure it actually touched 50, but that might have been at a time
> when the total demand was unusually low, at around 25GW. In contrast,
> coal, gas etc has been doing little more than 10%. But now that the
> Christmas and New Year holiday period is over, and everyone's nose is
> back at industry's grindstone, and because that large lump of high
> pressure has taken residence over much of the UK, coal etc is now over 50%.
>
> Heaven knows how we're ever going to fuel all those electrical vehicles!

easy! use a wankel engine running on petrol to drive a 20 kW genny to
recharge the battery.... euphumistically called a Range extender!

On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 08:38:19 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

> On 23/01/2023 00:59, David wrote:
>> Haven't seen anything about this recently, but it was a thing late
>> November.
>
> It is a hot topic today. They will pay you not to use electricity
> tonight provided that you have a Smart meter (I do) and the right
> supplier (very few) which I don't. It is a half cocked policy.
>>
>> I still don't know why Economy 7 (if this still exists) doesn't
>> do the job already.
>
> Because that won't take the edge off the 6pm peak load when everyone and
> their dog gets home from work and puts the oven on. They are also
> warming up no less than 3 coal fired power stations because after the
> extent of this cold snap we must be getting a bit low on gas by now.

Does the smart meter provide a read-out of the supply voltage? I've a
plug-in power meter socket that I use occasionally. It usually reports
the expected 239-240 V, but mid-morning one day last week, and today,
read 234-236 V. I think that persisted today through the afternoon,
but was back to a steady 240 V by 5.30. At ?7.30 though it was actually
reporting 242/243 V, which I don't remember seeing before. A couple of
hours ago it was back to 240/241, but even now it's 242/243 V again.

All, I assume, within standard system tolerances: is there any
consumer apparatus that is going to hiccup? More interesting
were this evening's over-voltages. A consequence of limited
flexibility / degrees of freedom in the system?

On Tuesday, 24 January 2023 at 00:07:46 UTC, Iain Archer wrote:

> Does the smart meter provide a read-out of the supply voltage? I've a
> plug-in power meter socket that I use occasionally. It usually reports
> the expected 239-240 V, but mid-morning one day last week, and today,
> read 234-236 V. I think that persisted today through the afternoon,
> but was back to a steady 240 V by 5.30. At ?7.30 though it was actually
> reporting 242/243 V, which I don't remember seeing before. A couple of
> hours ago it was back to 240/241, but even now it's 242/243 V again.
>
> All, I assume, within standard system tolerances:

yup

> is there any
> consumer apparatus that is going to hiccup?

no

> More interesting
> were this evening's over-voltages. A consequence of limited
> flexibility / degrees of freedom in the system?

?

On 23/01/2023 16:36, alan_m wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 13:45, Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
>> For the past few weeks, the wind has been doing a fine job. It has
>> been typically 40+%, and on several occasions over 50%. A few days ago
>> I'm pretty sure it actually touched 50, but that might have been at a
>> time when the total demand was unusually low, at around 25GW. In
>> contrast, coal, gas etc has been doing little more than 10%. But now
>> that the Christmas and New Year holiday period is over, and everyone's
>> nose is back at industry's grindstone, and because that large lump of
>> high pressure has taken residence over much of the UK, coal etc is now
>> over 50%.
>>
>
> In general, the colder it got the lower wind speed!
>
>
>> Heaven knows how we're ever going to fuel all those electrical vehicles!
>
> And the swap from gas to all electric central heating.
>
The thought of a government that has removed the basic human right of
access to reasonably priced energy from its citizens is the sort of
problem Africa faces.

Not Britain.

Until the greens got the hands on the reins...

No one is reporting it. Far more excited about TERFS.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

On 24/01/2023 00:07, Iain Archer wrote:
> Does the smart meter provide a read-out of the supply voltage? I've a
> plug-in power meter socket that I use occasionally. It usually reports
> the expected 239-240 V, but mid-morning one day last week, and today,
> read 234-236 V. I think that persisted today through the afternoon,
> but was back to a steady 240 V by 5.30. At ?7.30 though it was actually
> reporting 242/243 V, which I don't remember seeing before. A couple of
> hours ago it was back to 240/241, but even now it's 242/243 V again.
>
> All, I assume, within standard system tolerances: is there any
> consumer apparatus that is going to hiccup? More interesting
> were this evening's over-voltages. A consequence of limited
> flexibility / degrees of freedom in the system?

As far as I am aware, a small over-voltage (eg up to 260 V) is fine for
PSUs in electronic equipment. The switched-mode power supply will just
turn on for a smaller proportion of each of its high-frequency cycles,
to ensure that the output remains within much tighter tolerances.
Resistive equipment (electric fires, kettles) will run a little bit
hotter and will use more power according to V^2/R. But they will heat
the house a bit more or boil the kettle a bit quicker.

When I've checked, our mains varies between about 230 and 260 V: it's
currently 246 V. I'm not sure how it varies as a function of time -
whether it is lower at times of higher demand.

Frequency can be more of a problem since even modern mains-powered
digital clocks tend to count mains cycles rather than use a
high-frequency quartz crystal. But the frequency is constrained within
tight tolerances (+/- 1 Hz, IIRC) and is guaranteed to average out to 50
Hz over a 24-hour period.

On 23/01/2023 00:59, David wrote:
> Haven't seen anything about this recently, but it was a thing late
> November.
>

I heard someone on the radio describing a bunch of messing about that
netted her £2.07, I can't see it catching on.

On 25/01/2023 13:22, R D S wrote:
> On 23/01/2023 00:59, David wrote:
>> Haven't seen anything about this recently, but it was a thing late
>> November.
>>
>
> I heard someone on the radio describing a bunch of messing about that
> netted her £2.07, I can't see it catching on.
>

Just got the email...

Thanks for being part of our Saving Session on 19th January. Here’s a
quick look at the difference your efforts made:

You saved 0.057kWh, which earned you 104 OctoPoints – worth £0.13.

--
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On 25/01/2023 14:28, alan_m wrote:
>
> You saved 0.057kWh, which earned you 104 OctoPoints – worth £0.13.
>
The Martin Lewis brainwashed would say it's better than nothing, but
it's no reward for sitting in the dark tor hours sipping from a flask!

On 25/01/2023 14:59, R D S wrote:
> On 25/01/2023 14:28, alan_m wrote:
>>
>> You saved 0.057kWh, which earned you 104 OctoPoints – worth £0.13.
>>
> The Martin Lewis brainwashed would say it's better than nothing, but
> it's no reward for sitting in the dark tor hours sipping from a flask!
>

Some idiots may do that - this household just puts off using the washing
machine, kettle or electric oven for the published single hour for which
payment is made for savings. Although the 19th Jan payment was 19p my
average has been 60p for each hour with no real effort and without any
hardship. The TV and central heating etc. were still on.

I would agree it makes near zero difference to me financially and the
whole scheme is more of a publicity exercise. It's a pity they are not
making more of the point that they only have to do it when green energy
is turned off due to the lack of wind - and a time when the weather is
at it's coldest! But, hey, the solution is to build more windmills and
decommission all gas and coal power stations in the next few years.

--
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In article <tqrg5e$n6a6$1@dont-email.me>,
R D S <rsandr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 25/01/2023 14:28, alan_m wrote:
> >
> > You saved 0.057kWh, which earned you 104 OctoPoints — worth £0.13.
> >
> The Martin Lewis brainwashed would say it's better than nothing, but
> it's no reward for sitting in the dark tor hours sipping from a flask!

depends what's in the flask

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

R D S <rsandr@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 25/01/2023 14:28, alan_m wrote:
> >
> > You saved 0.057kWh, which earned you 104 OctoPoints – worth £0.13.
> >
> The Martin Lewis brainwashed would say it's better than nothing, but
> it's no reward for sitting in the dark tor hours sipping from a flask!

People seem to be taking it to extremes, or at least the ones the media are
talking to.

Here:
1hr ahead, bump up the thermostat by 1 degree
at the start time, reduce the thermostat by 3 degrees (heating turns off)
after the end, put the thermostat back to normal

That's it. If there was an API I could write something to do it automatically.

Made about a tenner so far, which is not massive but for basically zero
work.

.... later ...

Turns out Octopus have an API, so I wrote something to fetch the times:
https://github.com/caliston/octopus-saving-sessions

Theo

On Wed, 25 Jan 2023 15:30:23 +0000 (GMT), charles <charles@candehope.me.uk>
wrote:

>In article <tqrg5e$n6a6$1@dont-email.me>,
> R D S <rsandr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 25/01/2023 14:28, alan_m wrote:
>> >
>> > You saved 0.057kWh, which earned you 104 OctoPoints — worth £0.13.
>> >
>> The Martin Lewis brainwashed would say it's better than nothing, but
>> it's no reward for sitting in the dark tor hours sipping from a flask!
>
>depends what's in the flask

UK denizens get *paid* to go to a pub? Ok, £0.13 isn't much, but hey...

Thomas Prufer

On 25/01/2023 16:45, Theo wrote:

>
> People seem to be taking it to extremes, or at least the ones the media are
> talking to.

Yes, on the radio the other day someone claiming a payment of around £20
from the previous hour long period. How much domestic electricity do
some people normally use?

When this all stated I did post about the misinformation put out on a
BBC early morning TV show where the journalist claimed that you had to
switch off everything during the qualifying period. With reference to
the extremes the media have been mentioning people throwing the switch
in the consumer unit.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023 00:22:21 +1100, R D S <rsandr@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 23/01/2023 00:59, David wrote:
>> Haven't seen anything about this recently, but it was a thing late
>> November.
>>
>
> I heard someone on the radio describing a bunch of messing about that
> netted her £2.07,

What matters is what other get netted.

> I can't see it catching on.

On 25/01/2023 17:54, alan_m wrote:
> When this all stated I did post about the misinformation put out on a
> BBC early morning TV show where the journalist claimed that you had to
> switch off everything during the qualifying period.
Yeah, I was talking to a guy the other day who turned everything off
including his radio!

On 26/01/2023 12:11, R D S wrote:
> On 25/01/2023 17:54, alan_m wrote:

>> When this all stated I did post about the misinformation put out on a
>> BBC early morning TV show where the journalist claimed that you had to
>> switch off everything during the qualifying period.

> Yeah, I was talking to a guy the other day who turned everything off
> including his radio!

There are people using candles instead of electric light. Must be a lot
dearer.
--
Max Demian

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On 26/01/2023 12:11, R D S wrote:
>> On 25/01/2023 17:54, alan_m wrote:
>
>>> When this all stated I did post about the misinformation put out on a
>>> BBC early morning TV show where the journalist claimed that you had to
>>> switch off everything during the qualifying period.
>
>> Yeah, I was talking to a guy the other day who turned everything off
>> including his radio!
>
> There are people using candles instead of electric light. Must be a lot
> dearer.

Whatever happened to good old-fashioned iPads? ;-)

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 26/01/2023 17:07, Max Demian wrote:
> On 26/01/2023 12:11, R D S wrote:
>> On 25/01/2023 17:54, alan_m wrote:
>
>>> When this all stated I did post about the misinformation put out on a
>>> BBC early morning TV show where the journalist claimed that you had
>>> to switch off everything during the qualifying period.
>
>> Yeah, I was talking to a guy the other day who turned everything off
>> including his radio!
>
> There are people using candles instead of electric light. Must be a lot
> dearer.

So much power/money saving bull shit advice around! Even the one fits
all advice of reducing your boiler flow temperature to 60C may not
achieve a cost saving if your radiators are not oversized but your
boiler is.

--
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In article <k3g83jFf95eU2@mid.individual.net>,
alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 26/01/2023 17:07, Max Demian wrote:
> > On 26/01/2023 12:11, R D S wrote:
> >> On 25/01/2023 17:54, alan_m wrote:
> >
> >>> When this all stated I did post about the misinformation put out on a
> >>> BBC early morning TV show where the journalist claimed that you had
> >>> to switch off everything during the qualifying period.
> >
> >> Yeah, I was talking to a guy the other day who turned everything off
> >> including his radio!
> >
> > There are people using candles instead of electric light. Must be a lot
> > dearer.

> So much power/money saving bull shit advice around! Even the one fits
> all advice of reducing your boiler flow temperature to 60C may not
> achieve a cost saving if your radiators are not oversized but your
> boiler is.

and, of course, the idea that you only heat your home to 60°F prevents
Working from Home, since a Workplace needs to be heated to 65° as a minimum.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 26/01/2023 21:22, charles wrote:

> and, of course, the idea that you only heat your home to 60°F prevents
> Working from Home, since a Workplace needs to be heated to 65° as a minimum.
>

It may be that a "factory" needs to be heated to a certain temperature
but a work place does not.

--
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