On 2/21/2023 12:36 AM, Animal wrote:
> On Saturday, 18 February 2023 at 06:49:49 UTC, Paul wrote:
>> On 2/17/2023 3:47 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 07:33:31 +1100, Joe <j...@jretrading.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Given that renewables are at their
>>>> least useful in the coldest weather, at least in my country.
>>>
>>> Thats a lie with wind power.
>> Wind comes with no guarantees.
>>
>> https://www.greenbiz.com/article/global-stilling-climate-change-slowing-down-wind
>>
>> This is why you build a "basket" of energy sources.
>>
>> Paul
>
> and end up with a basket case power system. Renewables are intermittent, if you rely on them to any significant extent you will get electricity intermittently. No, it is not practical to store much of it.
>

There is an energy basket

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_Kingdom

and some nuanced interpretation as well.

Paul

Paul

On 2/20/2023 1:14 PM, Joe wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2023 16:40:47 +0000 (GMT)
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:17:15 +1100
>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 04:20:35 +1100, Joe <joe@jretrading.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Indeed. It was never about climate change, it is all about
>>>>> control. This particular aspect is about preventing the
>>>>> peasants travelling around freely, like in the middle ages.
>>>>> Electric cars that only the rich can afford combine with
>>>>> government-operated cars to eliminate mobility.
>>>>
>>>> Mindless conspiracy theory.
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://subscriber.politicopro.com/eenews/f/eenews/?id=00000185-e562-de44-a7bf-ed7751a00000
>>>
>>> California, USA, home of the nuts, but it's only the nutty stuff
>>> that ends up as law.
>>
>> "This report finds that the United States can achieve
>> zero-emissions transportation while limiting the
>> amount of lithium mining necessary by reducing the car
>> dependence of the transportation system, decreasing the
>> size of EV batteries, and maximizing lithium recycling.
>> Reordering the US transportation system through policy
>> and spending shifts to prioritize public and active transit
>> while reducing car dependency can also ensure transit
>> equity, protect ecosystems, respect Indigenous rights, and
>> meet the demands of global justice."
>>
>> Given that it's basically impossible to live in the USA without a
>> car, can you explain why making it possible to live without one (by
>> choice) is a bad thing?
>>
>
> It is already possible, by living in high-density housing in cities.
> Astoundingly, not everyone wants to do this.
>
> The tenor of the report is not so much about making it possible to live
> without a car, but of making it *necessary*. Reductions in the already
> poor range of EVs by shrinking the battery size, and reductions in
> ownership, are not expected to be achievable voluntarily.
>

The future isn't all Lithium.

"The highway where trucks work like electric trains" [pantographs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3P_S7pL7Yg

When I was a kid, our public transit was done that way.
And I cannot recollect a "single point of failure" incident,
where the entire thing was disabled at once. It always
seemed to have power. Yes, the poles come off occasionally,
at intersections where two directions cross. Driver skill,
makes a difference to that.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/5a/19/5b5a1902586f56f1672d61f878f2155f.jpg

Whereas the public transit we just built here, keeps breaking
and has to be replaced for periods of time by diesel buses.

The only thing that was bad about that trolley system, is the scheduling
(when the vehicles ran, when they made connections) was done by
humans, and no computers jiggled the schedule to make it all work.
Our public transit here, significant amounts of computer time are
spent trying to make everything work. Typically, a bus arrives
at a stop, three minutes before the connection is made, and sometimes
the two buses are "tip to tail", you jump off one bus and onto another.
I did that on my last trip to the hospital (annual checkup). The bus
is cheaper than the parking. The bus stop is closer to the hospital
than the parking too (it is a ten minute walk from parking to
hospital entrance).

Paul

On 20/02/2023 22:12, Theo wrote:
> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>> On 20 Feb 2023 at 21:46:43 GMT, "alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/02/2023 08:21, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>
>>>> Irrelevant to that lie that wind is the least usful in the coldest weather.
>>>
>>> In the UK this winter the coldest weather has resulted in wind
>>> generation falling and on some days generating close to zero.
>>
>> Woss this bollocks that Woddles is spewing?
>>
>> Blocking high pressure over Northern Europe in winter -> cold & frosty, lasts
>> several days, typically, and not a breath of wind anywhere. Often cloudy or
>> foggy meaning zero from solar, too. Anyfink else?
>
> The dunkelflaute is a problem specific to a few areas like northern Europe
> in winter and Japan in summer - they probably don't have them down under.
>
> Theo
Low wind is always associated with the centre of anti-cyclone, or bands
between cyclones. In temperate zones. Typically these are continent
spanning affairs.
Desert climates are from memory nearly always windy.

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

On 21/02/2023 08:22, Paul wrote:
> On 2/20/2023 1:14 PM, Joe wrote:
>> On 20 Feb 2023 16:40:47 +0000 (GMT) Theo
>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:17:15 +1100 "Rod Speed"
>>>> <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 04:20:35 +1100, Joe <joe@jretrading.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Indeed. It was never about climate change, it is all about
>>>>>> control. This particular aspect is about preventing the
>>>>>> peasants travelling around freely, like in the middle
>>>>>> ages. Electric cars that only the rich can afford combine
>>>>>> with government-operated cars to eliminate mobility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mindless conspiracy theory.
>>>>
>>>> https://subscriber.politicopro.com/eenews/f/eenews/?id=00000185-e562-de44-a7bf-ed7751a00000
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
California, USA, home of the nuts, but it's only the nutty stuff
>>>> that ends up as law.
>>>
>>> "This report finds that the United States can achieve
>>> zero-emissions transportation while limiting the amount of
>>> lithium mining necessary by reducing the car dependence of the
>>> transportation system, decreasing the size of EV batteries, and
>>> maximizing lithium recycling. Reordering the US transportation
>>> system through policy and spending shifts to prioritize public
>>> and active transit while reducing car dependency can also ensure
>>> transit equity, protect ecosystems, respect Indigenous rights,
>>> and meet the demands of global justice."
>>>
>>> Given that it's basically impossible to live in the USA without
>>> a car, can you explain why making it possible to live without one
>>> (by choice) is a bad thing?
>>>
>>
>> It is already possible, by living in high-density housing in
>> cities. Astoundingly, not everyone wants to do this.
>>
>> The tenor of the report is not so much about making it possible to
>> live without a car, but of making it *necessary*. Reductions in the
>> already poor range of EVs by shrinking the battery size, and
>> reductions in ownership, are not expected to be achievable
>> voluntarily.
>>
>
> The future isn't all Lithium.
>
> "The highway where trucks work like electric trains" [pantographs]
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3P_S7pL7Yg
>
If I were to design a public transportation system that would run off
electricity, the first thing I would do is shove in nuclear power
everywhere that was big enough to take it. So ships definitely would be
directly reactor powered.

When you look at railways, the thing that springs up at you is that they
are fucking useless for time critical journeys and they don't have
global reach.

The obvious thing to do, therefore, is to use them mostly for freight.
If -as used to be the case with coal - local stations become power
centres, not coal yards, but electricity substations of some capacity,
the obvious efficient use of lithiun is driverless cars and vans
charging at the railway station acting as local feeders.

In this future the whole railway network is computerised, not under
central control, but locally organised via the equivalent of routers.
The mechanical analogue of an internet router would be a self powered
railway truck big enough to take one container that has a unique
destination ID, and as it approached a potential router change,
automatic control would buffer it in a siding, until there was capacity
on the new route and then send it on its way to the next 'router'.

All the algorithms for this including traffic prioritisation already
exist in Intenet land.

At the furthest point towards the final destination, the container is
unloaded automatically, as it contain standard sized parcels, and
parcels loaded on to route optimised electric delivery tricks,m which
then gently cruise the almost empty roads to the final destination, and
pick up any parcels destined for forwarding.

That takes long distance road haulage off the roads altogether.
As far as passengers are concerned, if they dont mind an uncertain
journey time there is no reason why containers of *people* could not be
transported the same way. With the last hop being a sort of unscheduled
'on demand' bus service.

But in the main people simply spend more time working from home anyway.
There should be no need for centralised offices at all.

And indeed no need for a huge amount of socialist inspired make-work either.
Being unemployed on state benefits at home will become the norm, not the
exception.

With changes to the tax laws rendering zero hours contracts no penalty
in terms of taxed earnings.

What people have to realise, is that if we are to take the demise of
fossil fuels seriously because - irrespective of any climate change
bullshit - there is only so much readily accessible fossil fuel left,
and it aint getting any cheaper, the inevitable consequence of that is
the end of the self drive private vehicle, which I will mourn greatly.

And a complete restructuring of how we move ourselves and goods around.

I.e. if the cost of having an office and paying staff the extra costs to
work shorter hours by commuting simply exceeds the somewhat lower work
output but massively reduced costs of people working at home, say
'goodnight, vienna' to the office block.

People will live in and relate to their local communities the way they
used to. Etc.

When you look at how good Internet actually is, the case for 'living
where the work is' looks massively weakened. Even mechanical tasks need
not have local people controlling the machines.

Imagine a road repair machine with a remote virtual reality link to a
supervisor and driver that is unattended and capable of being controlled
by an expert operators anywhere in - well the world.

That's the good future,

The bad future is the ArtStudents dream where the population has
collapsed and the world is back to under ten million people all growing
organic food and hunting organic animals with bows and arrows and dying
mainly in childbirth or from raging bacterial infections, and living in
grass or wood or stone huts.

--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."

In message <tt26cl$13ulc$1@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> writes

massive snip!
> When you look at how good Internet actually is, the case for 'living
>where the work is' looks massively weakened. Even mechanical tasks need
>not have local people controlling the machines.
>
>Imagine a road repair machine with a remote virtual reality link to a
>supervisor and driver that is unattended and capable of being
>controlled by an expert operators anywhere in - well the world.
>
>That's the good future,
>
>The bad future is the ArtStudents dream where the population has
>collapsed and the world is back to under ten million people all growing
>organic food and hunting organic animals with bows and arrows and dying
>mainly in childbirth or from raging bacterial infections, and living in
>grass or wood or stone huts.

I won't be alive to worry but I find our increasing reliance on services
provided by commercial entities together with inbuilt vulnerabilities
such as sub-sea cables of some concern.

A bit of string would fix the horse harness but I don't see the average
future dweller being able to do much other than consume in exchange for
some *make work* activity.
>

--
Tim Lamb

On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 19:22:40 +1100, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 2/20/2023 1:14 PM, Joe wrote:
>> On 20 Feb 2023 16:40:47 +0000 (GMT)
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:17:15 +1100
>>>> "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 04:20:35 +1100, Joe <joe@jretrading.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed. It was never about climate change, it is all about
>>>>>> control. This particular aspect is about preventing the
>>>>>> peasants travelling around freely, like in the middle ages.
>>>>>> Electric cars that only the rich can afford combine with
>>>>>> government-operated cars to eliminate mobility.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mindless conspiracy theory.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://subscriber.politicopro.com/eenews/f/eenews/?id=00000185-e562-de44-a7bf-ed7751a00000
>>>>
>>>> California, USA, home of the nuts, but it's only the nutty stuff
>>>> that ends up as law.
>>>
>>> "This report finds that the United States can achieve
>>> zero-emissions transportation while limiting the
>>> amount of lithium mining necessary by reducing the car
>>> dependence of the transportation system, decreasing the
>>> size of EV batteries, and maximizing lithium recycling.
>>> Reordering the US transportation system through policy
>>> and spending shifts to prioritize public and active transit
>>> while reducing car dependency can also ensure transit
>>> equity, protect ecosystems, respect Indigenous rights, and
>>> meet the demands of global justice."
>>>
>>> Given that it's basically impossible to live in the USA without a
>>> car, can you explain why making it possible to live without one (by
>>> choice) is a bad thing?
>>>
>> It is already possible, by living in high-density housing in cities.
>> Astoundingly, not everyone wants to do this.
>> The tenor of the report is not so much about making it possible to live
>> without a car, but of making it *necessary*. Reductions in the already
>> poor range of EVs by shrinking the battery size, and reductions in
>> ownership, are not expected to be achievable voluntarily.
>>
>
> The future isn't all Lithium.
>
> "The highway where trucks work like electric trains" [pantographs]
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3P_S7pL7Yg
>
> When I was a kid, our public transit was done that way.
> And I cannot recollect a "single point of failure" incident,
> where the entire thing was disabled at once. It always
> seemed to have power. Yes, the poles come off occasionally,
> at intersections where two directions cross. Driver skill,
> makes a difference to that.
>
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/5a/19/5b5a1902586f56f1672d61f878f2155f.jpg
>
> Whereas the public transit we just built here, keeps breaking
> and has to be replaced for periods of time by diesel buses.
>
> The only thing that was bad about that trolley system, is the scheduling
> (when the vehicles ran, when they made connections) was done by
> humans, and no computers jiggled the schedule to make it all work.
> Our public transit here, significant amounts of computer time are
> spent trying to make everything work. Typically, a bus arrives
> at a stop, three minutes before the connection is made, and sometimes
> the two buses are "tip to tail", you jump off one bus and onto another.
> I did that on my last trip to the hospital (annual checkup). The bus
> is cheaper than the parking. The bus stop is closer to the hospital
> than the parking too (it is a ten minute walk from parking to
> hospital entrance).

Can't see that ever being viable for trucks.

On 21 Feb 2023 at 05:49:36 GMT, "Animal" <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:

> Public tansport is painfully inefficient, ...

True.

> this is why it has to be constantly government funded as well as paying for
> tickets.

There's no such thing as "government funding". It's actually "taxpayer
funding", but the true source is disguised so we can all pretend that such
funding reduces the cost.

--
27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross Berlin Wall.

"A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist regime is coercion, not equality."

Dan Hannan

On 21 Feb 2023 at 08:22:40 GMT, "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> When I was a kid, our public transit was done that way.
> And I cannot recollect a "single point of failure" incident,
> where the entire thing was disabled at once. It always
> seemed to have power. Yes, the poles come off occasionally,
> at intersections where two directions cross. Driver skill,
> makes a difference to that.
>
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/5a/19/5b5a1902586f56f1672d61f878f2155f.jpg

Trolley buses. I dunno why we don't still have them, much more flexible and
cheaper than trams.

--
"If you're not able to ask questions and deal with the answers without feeling that someone has called your intelligence or competence into question, don't ask questions on Usenet where the answers won't be carefully tailored to avoid tripping your hair-trigger insecurities."

D M Procida, UCSM

On 21/02/2023 18:01, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2023 at 08:22:40 GMT, "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> When I was a kid, our public transit was done that way.
>> And I cannot recollect a "single point of failure" incident,
>> where the entire thing was disabled at once. It always
>> seemed to have power. Yes, the poles come off occasionally,
>> at intersections where two directions cross. Driver skill,
>> makes a difference to that.
>>
>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/5a/19/5b5a1902586f56f1672d61f878f2155f.jpg
>
> Trolley buses. I dunno why we don't still have them, much more flexible and
> cheaper than trams.

Yes. And they can carry a battery sized to carry them a short distance,
off the wires, allowing them to go around roadworks, accidents or even
just short sections where overhead wires might be a problem.

On Tue, 21 Feb 2023 20:44:20 +1100, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 20/02/2023 22:12, Theo wrote:
>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>> On 20 Feb 2023 at 21:46:43 GMT, "alan_m" <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 18/02/2023 08:21, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Irrelevant to that lie that wind is the least usful in the coldest
>>>>> weather.
>>>>
>>>> In the UK this winter the coldest weather has resulted in wind
>>>> generation falling and on some days generating close to zero.
>>>
>>> Woss this bollocks that Woddles is spewing?
>>>
>>> Blocking high pressure over Northern Europe in winter -> cold &
>>> frosty, lasts
>>> several days, typically, and not a breath of wind anywhere. Often
>>> cloudy or
>>> foggy meaning zero from solar, too. Anyfink else?
>> The dunkelflaute is a problem specific to a few areas like northern
>> Europe
>> in winter and Japan in summer - they probably don't have them down
>> under.
>> Theo
> Low wind is always associated with the centre of anti-cyclone, or bands
> between cyclones. In temperate zones. Typically these are continent
> spanning affairs.

> Desert climates are from memory nearly always windy.

That's just plain wrong.

On 2/21/2023 2:23 PM, SteveW wrote:
> On 21/02/2023 18:01, Tim Streater wrote:
>> On 21 Feb 2023 at 08:22:40 GMT, "Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> When I was a kid, our public transit was done that way.
>>> And I cannot recollect a "single point of failure" incident,
>>> where the entire thing was disabled at once. It always
>>> seemed to have power. Yes, the poles come off occasionally,
>>> at intersections where two directions cross. Driver skill,
>>> makes a difference to that.
>>>
>>> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5b/5a/19/5b5a1902586f56f1672d61f878f2155f.jpg
>>
>> Trolley buses. I dunno why we don't still have them, much more flexible and
>> cheaper than trams.
>
> Yes. And they can carry a battery sized to carry them a short distance, off the wires, allowing them to go around roadworks, accidents or even just short sections where overhead wires might be a problem.
>

There wasn't too much to that particular design.

That design didn't have a standby traction battery.

Another thing it was poor at, was interior heating.
The drivers position and the front windshield were
heated, but the passenger area, you could scrape
winter frost off the windows. You would scrape a hole
in the frost, so you could see out.

Because the terminal building was heated, the trolley
might heat up above 0C in winter while being cleaned.
The floors had gaps, and if staff ran a mop and pail
along the floor, the water would just "randomly run away".
There was no pretense to a controlled drainage pattern
and a gutter system or anything.

The floor was as flat as a pancake, and it looked like
the bus was delivered to the customer, with no seats inside.
And then chrome plated metalwork for seating and straps
for standing, that sort of thing, were bolted in as a
separate step.

They did not care to spend a lot to build those :-)
There is no reason those designs would cost a half million.
They didn't come with CarPlay and touchscreens.

Paul

On 21 Feb 2023 at 17:59:12, Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2023 at 05:49:36 GMT, "Animal" <tabbypurr@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Public tansport is painfully inefficient, ...
>
> True.
>
>> this is why it has to be constantly government funded as well as paying for
>> tickets.
>
> There's no such thing as "government funding". It's actually "taxpayer
> funding", but the true source is disguised so we can all pretend that such
> funding reduces the cost.
>
> --
> 27/6/1975 - Herbert Kiebler shot and killed trying to cross Berlin Wall.
>
> "A reminder that the defining characteristic of a socialist regime is coercion, not equality."
>
> Dan Hannan

Daniel Hannan in 2016 : "Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening
our place in the Single Market."

I have had a number of calls this week, indeed two today who replace the
phone when confronted by the call screener. I rang it back just now. Its
some crowd calling itself Energy saving Hub. Obviously English. They ignore
what you tell them and are pushing to get people to let them give yoyos a
free loft insulation inspection.
They infer they are government funded, but avoid any direct questions. They
use the old news that Fibreglass can be an irritant, like who does not know
that?. When you tell them it was done under a government scheme they then
say if its more than 18 months ago it could still be out of date.
In the end I just could not stop her blithering in my ear so put the phone
down.

Its probably some fly by night mob trying to get a foot in the door.
They got no info from me and in my view if they cannot be bothered to use
the call screener their bottom line is profit or scamming.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

On 22/02/2023 09:19, Brian Gaff wrote:
> I have had a number of calls this week, indeed two today who replace the
> phone when confronted by the call screener. I rang it back just now. Its
> some crowd calling itself Energy saving Hub. Obviously English. They ignore
> what you tell them and are pushing to get people to let them give yoyos a
> free loft insulation inspection.
> They infer they are government funded, but avoid any direct questions. They
> use the old news that Fibreglass can be an irritant, like who does not know
> that?. When you tell them it was done under a government scheme they then
> say if its more than 18 months ago it could still be out of date.
> In the end I just could not stop her blithering in my ear so put the phone
> down.
>
> Its probably some fly by night mob trying to get a foot in the door.
> They got no info from me and in my view if they cannot be bothered to use
> the call screener their bottom line is profit or scamming.

I got a spate of calls some time back from a well spoken voice, claiming
to be "my local energy advisor". Claiming "local" was odd since it was
from a Dorset dialling code each time.

Conversations were somewhat disjointed. I got the impression it actually
a very well done voice menu bot in the end - at least at the start of
the call. Since if you spoke while it spoke, it paused, but then carried
on, not seeming to have registered what you said etc.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 21/02/2023 15:08, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <tt26cl$13ulc$1@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>
> massive snip!
>> When you look at how good Internet actually is, the case for 'living
>> where the work is' looks massively weakened. Even mechanical tasks
>> need not have local people controlling the machines.
>>
>> Imagine a road repair machine with a remote virtual reality link to a
>> supervisor and driver that is unattended and capable of being
>> controlled by an expert operators anywhere in - well the world.
>>
>> That's the good future,
>>
>> The bad future is the ArtStudents dream where the population has
>> collapsed and the world is back to under ten million people all
>> growing organic food and hunting organic animals with bows and arrows
>> and dying mainly in childbirth or from raging bacterial infections,
>> and living in grass or wood or stone huts.
>
> I won't be alive to worry but I find our increasing reliance on services
> provided by commercial entities together with inbuilt vulnerabilities
> such as sub-sea cables of some concern.
>
I just watched - or listened to - a fairly hard hitting analysis of why
globalisation is about to come crashing down, and how Russia China and
German economies and most of Europe are about to go down the toilet.

Strangely he never mentioned Brexit, or Climate Change. It was a perfect
storm of resource shortages and geography and demographics.

> A bit of string would fix the horse harness but I don't see the average
> future dweller being able to do much other than consume  in exchange for
> some *make work* activity.

I think two or three options exist for the future.
A limited population serviced entirely by robots living a life of
relative luxury and ease. Powered by nuclear power.

A large population under a totalitarian style government fed on
processes insect and soybean, living a life of equally shared misery
apart from the Party, who still have all the luxuries. And a Glorious
Leader who is the next best thing to God.

Total destruction of technological civilisation and a sort of mediaeval
theocracy of Gaia, with peasants toiling the fields, knights living in
the castles, and nothing but manual or animal or 'renewable' wind to
provide any power at all, and a population under 1 billion world wide.

>>
>

--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

On 22 Feb 2023 at 12:07:19 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> I think two or three options exist for the future.
> A limited population serviced entirely by robots living a life of
> relative luxury and ease. Powered by nuclear power.
>
> A large population under a totalitarian style government fed on
> processes insect and soybean, living a life of equally shared misery
> apart from the Party, who still have all the luxuries. And a Glorious
> Leader who is the next best thing to God.

As predicted by George Orwell in 1984. We have:

Eastasia - that's China
Eurasia - which is what Russia is fast becoming
Oceania - everyone else

--
"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689

In message <tt4u69$1gd2n$3@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
<see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>On 22/02/2023 09:19, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> I have had a number of calls this week, indeed two today who replace the
>> phone when confronted by the call screener. I rang it back just now. Its
>> some crowd calling itself Energy saving Hub. Obviously English. They ignore
>> what you tell them and are pushing to get people to let them give yoyos a
>> free loft insulation inspection.
>> They infer they are government funded, but avoid any direct questions. They
>> use the old news that Fibreglass can be an irritant, like who does not know
>> that?. When you tell them it was done under a government scheme they then
>> say if its more than 18 months ago it could still be out of date.
>> In the end I just could not stop her blithering in my ear so put the phone
>> down.
>> Its probably some fly by night mob trying to get a foot in the
>>door.
>> They got no info from me and in my view if they cannot be bothered to use
>> the call screener their bottom line is profit or scamming.
>
>I got a spate of calls some time back from a well spoken voice,
>claiming to be "my local energy advisor". Claiming "local" was odd
>since it was from a Dorset dialling code each time.
>
>Conversations were somewhat disjointed. I got the impression it
>actually a very well done voice menu bot in the end - at least at the
>start of the call. Since if you spoke while it spoke, it paused, but
>then carried on, not seeming to have registered what you said etc.
>

Sounds like the outfit that had a phase of phoning me up a while back
(probably pre-pandemic). They started with a Bournemouth/Poole number,
then changed to using a number on the same exchange as me.

They claimed that they were my local energy advisor and had to inspect
my government funded loft insulation. I pointed out that I didn't have
any government funded loft insulation, but they still insisted that they
had to inspect it:

Me - "So you have to inspect some insulation that doesn't exist ?"
Them - "Yes"

At which point I hung up.

I was also starting to wonder if it was some form of voice bot rather
than something resembling a human being. I haven't heard from them
since.

Adrian
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In message <tt50hn$1gj9f$4@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>On 21/02/2023 15:08, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <tt26cl$13ulc$1@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
>><tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>> massive snip!
>>> When you look at how good Internet actually is, the case for 'living
>>>where the work is' looks massively weakened. Even mechanical tasks
>>>need not have local people controlling the machines.
>>>
>>> Imagine a road repair machine with a remote virtual reality link to
>>>a supervisor and driver that is unattended and capable of being
>>>controlled by an expert operators anywhere in - well the world.
>>>
>>> That's the good future,
>>>
>>> The bad future is the ArtStudents dream where the population has
>>>collapsed and the world is back to under ten million people all
>>>growing organic food and hunting organic animals with bows and arrows
>>>and dying mainly in childbirth or from raging bacterial infections,
>>>and living in grass or wood or stone huts.
>> I won't be alive to worry but I find our increasing reliance on
>>services provided by commercial entities together with inbuilt
>>vulnerabilities such as sub-sea cables of some concern.
>>
>I just watched - or listened to - a fairly hard hitting analysis of why
>globalisation is about to come crashing down, and how Russia China and
>German economies and most of Europe are about to go down the toilet.
>
>Strangely he never mentioned Brexit, or Climate Change. It was a
>perfect storm of resource shortages and geography and demographics.
I doubt Brexit is relevant in the *world* sense.
>
>> A bit of string would fix the horse harness but I don't see the
>>average future dweller being able to do much other than consume  in
>>exchange for some *make work* activity.
>
>I think two or three options exist for the future.
>A limited population serviced entirely by robots living a life of
>relative luxury and ease. Powered by nuclear power.

Did he suggest how the de-population might be incentivised?
>
>A large population under a totalitarian style government fed on
>processes insect and soybean, living a life of equally shared misery
>apart from the Party, who still have all the luxuries. And a Glorious
>Leader who is the next best thing to God.

Oh! 1984 Aren't we already on the way by inviting Big Brother into our
lives and homes?
>
>Total destruction of technological civilisation and a sort of mediaeval
>theocracy of Gaia, with peasants toiling the fields, knights living in
>the castles, and nothing but manual or animal or 'renewable' wind to
>provide any power at all, and a population under 1 billion world wide.

A peasant should be able to produce a saleable surplus. If you restrict
his ability to benefit, you are heading for a revolt.

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> On 22 Feb 2023 at 12:07:19 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> A large population under a totalitarian style government fed on
>> processes insect and soybean, living a life of equally shared misery
>> apart from the Party, who still have all the luxuries. And a Glorious
>> Leader who is the next best thing to God.

> As predicted by George Orwell in 1984. We have:

> Eastasia - that's China
> Eurasia - which is what Russia is fast becoming
> Oceania - everyone else

National Anthem of Oceania:

<https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W-LQahV5pV8>

By one of those astonishing coincidences, Tony Blair <spit> was on the
radio this morning extolling the virtues of a digital Identity Card, on the
grounds that it will make age verification on the internet so much easier.
He didn’t say what else it might be mandatory for, or where any mission
creep might take it, neither did he speak of the WWII ID card, which
initially had four reasons for its existence but by the time the peasants
revolted had amassed thirty-nine.

--
Spike

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:19:26 -0000
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have had a number of calls this week, indeed two today who replace
> the phone when confronted by the call screener. I rang it back just
> now.

Usually worth asking Google if it knows about the number. There are
several automated sites that collect scam reports. If it's genuine, of
course, it should lead to the business which called you...

--
Joe

Why did you ring a cold caller back?

Tim

Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have had a number of calls this week, indeed two today who replace the
> phone when confronted by the call screener. I rang it back just now. Its
> some crowd calling itself Energy saving Hub. Obviously English. They ignore
> what you tell them and are pushing to get people to let them give yoyos a
> free loft insulation inspection.
> They infer they are government funded, but avoid any direct questions. They
> use the old news that Fibreglass can be an irritant, like who does not know
> that?. When you tell them it was done under a government scheme they then
> say if its more than 18 months ago it could still be out of date.
> In the end I just could not stop her blithering in my ear so put the phone
> down.
>
> Its probably some fly by night mob trying to get a foot in the door.
> They got no info from me and in my view if they cannot be bothered to use
> the call screener their bottom line is profit or scamming.
> Brian
>

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In article <k5mnsoFd49gU1@mid.individual.net>, Spike
<Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:
> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> > On 22 Feb 2023 at 12:07:19 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
> > <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> >> A large population under a totalitarian style government fed on
> >> processes insect and soybean, living a life of equally shared misery
> >> apart from the Party, who still have all the luxuries. And a Glorious
> >> Leader who is the next best thing to God.

> > As predicted by George Orwell in 1984. We have:

> > Eastasia - that's China Eurasia - which is what Russia is fast
> > becoming Oceania - everyone else

> National Anthem of Oceania:

> <https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W-LQahV5pV8>

> By one of those astonishing coincidences, Tony Blair <spit> was on the
> radio this morning extolling the virtues of a digital Identity Card, on
> the grounds that it will make age verification on the internet so much
> easier. He didn‘t say what else it might be mandatory for, or where any
> mission creep might take it, neither did he speak of the WWII ID card,
> which initially had four reasons for its existence but by the time the
> peasants revolted had amassed thirty-nine.

I still have my WWII ID card. Pretty useless- no photo.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 22/02/2023 14:54, Joe wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 09:19:26 -0000
> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have had a number of calls this week, indeed two today who replace
>> the phone when confronted by the call screener. I rang it back just
>> now.
>
> Usually worth asking Google if it knows about the number. There are
> several automated sites that collect scam reports. If it's genuine, of
> course, it should lead to the business which called you...
>
Yeah. In one case it was a genuine scammer. My bank I think trying to
sell me something.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

On 22/02/2023 13:47, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <tt50hn$1gj9f$4@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>> On 21/02/2023 15:08, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> In message <tt26cl$13ulc$1@dont-email.me>, The Natural Philosopher
>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes
>>>  massive snip!
>>>> When you look at how good Internet actually is, the case for 'living
>>>> where the work is' looks massively weakened. Even mechanical tasks
>>>> need not have local people controlling the machines.
>>>>
>>>> Imagine a road repair machine with a remote virtual reality link to
>>>> a  supervisor and driver that is unattended and capable of being
>>>> controlled by an expert operators anywhere in - well the world.
>>>>
>>>> That's the good future,
>>>>
>>>> The bad future is the ArtStudents dream where the population has
>>>> collapsed and the world is back to under ten million people all
>>>> growing organic food and hunting organic animals with bows and
>>>> arrows and dying mainly in childbirth or from raging bacterial
>>>> infections, and living in grass or wood or stone huts.
>>>  I won't be alive to worry but I find our increasing reliance on
>>> services  provided by commercial entities together with inbuilt
>>> vulnerabilities  such as sub-sea cables of some concern.
>>>
>> I just watched - or listened to - a fairly hard hitting analysis of
>> why globalisation is about to come crashing down, and how Russia China
>> and German economies and most of Europe are about to go down the toilet.
>>
>> Strangely he never mentioned Brexit, or Climate Change. It was a
>> perfect storm of resource shortages and geography and demographics.
> I doubt Brexit is relevant in the *world* sense.
>>
>>> A bit of string would fix the horse harness but I don't see the
>>> average  future dweller being able to do much other than consume  in
>>> exchange for  some *make work* activity.
>>
>> I think two or three options exist for the future.
>> A limited population serviced entirely by robots living a life of
>> relative luxury and ease. Powered by nuclear power.
>
> Did he suggest how the de-population might be incentivised?

I think, not HE thought
De populations is a fact in almost every advanced economy.
No one wants any nasty expensive stinkin kids.

If you won a peasant farm they are a labour resource that cost nothing
If you won a luxury Montecito mansion they are mere expensive fashion
accessories
>>
>> A large population under a totalitarian style government fed on
>> processes insect and soybean, living a life of equally shared misery
>> apart from the Party, who still have all the luxuries. And a Glorious
>> Leader who is the next best thing to God.
>
> Oh! 1984 Aren't we already on the way by inviting Big Brother into our
> lives and homes?
Yes.

>>
>> Total destruction of technological civilisation and a sort of
>> mediaeval theocracy of Gaia, with peasants toiling the fields, knights
>> living in the castles, and nothing but manual or animal or 'renewable'
>> wind to provide any power at all, and a population under 1 billion
>> world wide.
>
> A peasant should be able to produce a saleable surplus. If you restrict
> his ability to benefit, you are heading for a revolt.
Actually, without slavery (de facto or de jure) and metal working its
hard for a peasant to even feed his family.

If you look at the data, the rise in population of the UK is absolutely
all about firstly the rise in technology (and I include fertilisers in
that), and then the rise ins steam power. Windmills just don't cut the
moos turd.

>

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> In article <k5mnsoFd49gU1@mid.individual.net>, Spike
> <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:
>> Tim Streater <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>> On 22 Feb 2023 at 12:07:19 GMT, "The Natural Philosopher"
>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>> A large population under a totalitarian style government fed on
>>>> processes insect and soybean, living a life of equally shared misery
>>>> apart from the Party, who still have all the luxuries. And a Glorious
>>>> Leader who is the next best thing to God.
>
>>> As predicted by George Orwell in 1984. We have:
>
>>> Eastasia - that's China Eurasia - which is what Russia is fast
>>> becoming Oceania - everyone else
>
>> National Anthem of Oceania:
>
>> <https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W-LQahV5pV8>
>
>> By one of those astonishing coincidences, Tony Blair <spit> was on the
>> radio this morning extolling the virtues of a digital Identity Card, on
>> the grounds that it will make age verification on the internet so much
>> easier. He didn‘t say what else it might be mandatory for, or where any
>> mission creep might take it, neither did he speak of the WWII ID card,
>> which initially had four reasons for its existence but by the time the
>> peasants revolted had amassed thirty-nine.

> I still have my WWII ID card. Pretty useless- no photo.

I know what my Registration Number was, but I don’t have the card to go
with it.

--
Spike