On 4/1/22 3:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 2:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 12:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> And it had a rack & pinion, huh? :)
>>
>> Don't think so, it was a mid 60's 420G and they had recirculating ball
>> steering box.
>
> Sorry, I was thinking about the later series which had racks.
>
>> Remember Ron McGrice? It was his Jag, nice car but the steering was
>> woeful.
>
> I'd struggle to use the words "Jaguar" and "nice car" in the same
> sentence :)

It wouldn't be a struggle to use *Darren Gibbens* and *bullshit artist*
in the same sentence. See, I just did! They go together well, don't
they? A perfect match!
>
>>> To each their own, but what you've done here is highlighted the
>>> massive difference in car *setup*. Not component differences.
>>>
>>
>> True, it comes down to how the designers think that their customers
>> would want their steering to feel.
>
> It sounds like Trevor confuses steering feedback with the effort
> required to turn the steering wheel, and the two are not necessarily
> related. There are both brilliant and appallingly shithouse varieties of
> both assisted and manual steering systems.
>
>
>
>
>

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 4/01/2022 3:27 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 3:20 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> It sounds like Trevor confuses steering feedback with the effort
>> required to turn the steering wheel, and the two are not necessarily
>> related. There are both brilliant and appallingly shithouse varieties
>> of both assisted and manual steering systems.
>
> **No, Trevor is not confusing the two.

Apologies if that's not the case Trev, but what you seemed to be
suggesting in your posts was that the quality of "road feel" depended
entirely on whether power steering was involved, and very definitely is
not the case.

> The two cars I cited (the Jag and
> the Merc) were very different. The Jag managed to completely isolate the
> driver from any road feel, whereas the Merc managed to convey a
> surprisingly good road feel (almost like my Escort), despite a
> relatively light steering effort (though not as light as the Jag).

Which in itself is/was due to how they operated their power steering
systems. One has speed sensitive power steering, and one doesn't.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 3/01/2022 12:11 am, Xeno wrote:
> On 2/1/22 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>
>>
>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
>> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than
>> in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag, 
>> because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that
>> modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection
>> to the steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but
>> this gives us something to talk about)
>
> two points to note here. Point 1. Pretty much all cars now have rack
> and pinion steering and power assist. Rack and pinion is generally
> more direct than, say, recirculating ball steering boxes. 3.5-4 turns
> lock to lock was common on such *old* steering boxes. The power
> steering also makes more direct steering possible. Point 2. The *old
> cars* I grew up with and worked on in my early days in the trade
> pretty much all had cross ply or bias ply tyres of a reasonably high
> profile. The sidewise give in the sidewalls along with the very large
> slip angles produced at the tread guaranteed *lag* and general
> vagueness in the steering.

that all makes sense

>
> Almost forgot, there are no *production* cars that I am aware of that
> are *steer* by wire beyond some exotic models like the up market
> Infiniti model and, I think, some models of Tesla. But they are rare.
> The most common definition and example of *drive by wire* thus far is
> throttle control by wire. Were they referring to this rather than
> *steer by wire*? Steer by wire would be considered so rare that you
> really can't factor it into the accident stats at this point in time.
> Personally, I like my steering wheel with a *fail safe* connection to
> the road wheels.

maybe I misunderstood then. what is the definition of 'by wire' anyway?
it's usually a term associated with aircraft. I assume it means no
direct mechanical connection or linkage, but rather electronic control
via servo motors or whatever.

>>
>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>> roll over for example.
>>
> If you are used to the car, this shouldn't be an issue. That said,
> some car suspensions are mismatched to the tyres - even OEM factory
> fitted tyres. That can lead to the yaw frequency matching the
> suspension frequency. That's what happened with the A Class Benz when
> it was first released, the motoring journalists rolled one on a demo
> day. The first fix item on the agenda was to stiffen the suspension in
> roll so that it was impossible for the driver to switch from one lock
> to the other fast enough to get into phase with the side to side
> rocking of the body. Other changes included widening of the rear
> track, stiffer front anti-roll bar, smaller rolling radius tyres and
> default standard OEM fitment of ESP (stability control).
>
> The downside to those mods was a noticeably more harsh ride. Remember
> what you complained about on your MG? There was probably a very good
> reason why the ride on that car was harsh and it had to do with
> maintaining stability under the sort of movements, like the *Elk
> Test*, that the A Class came to grief with.

rather surprising that Mercedes Benz would get it wrong

>
> What people don't often realise is that handling, braking,
> performance, etc, in modern cars is *still* a mass of compromises.
> Sure, the manufacturer can make you a car that handles like a race car
> but it sure won't be a *comfortable boulevard cruiser* if they do that.
>

--
"his opinions have been crushed into insignificant dust by
the enormous weight of his lies"- Alvey on the Fraudster

On 4/01/2022 11:13 am, Xeno wrote:
> On 3/1/22 7:27 pm, Clocky wrote:
>> On 2/01/2022 3:57 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was
>>>> mentioned that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive
>>>> steering than in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had
>>>> more lag,  because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does
>>>> this mean that modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a
>>>> mechanical connection to the steering components? (and yes, I know
>>>> I could google it, but this gives us something to talk about)
>>>>
>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>
>>>
>>> p.s. Happy New Year everyone.  :)
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Happy new year to you too!
>>
> A Happy and Safe New Year to all (no restrictions).
>
> Last new year party yesterday at Grafton.
>
> We ate, we drank, we were merry, and now we shall diet.
>

LOL

--
"his opinions have been crushed into insignificant dust by
the enormous weight of his lies"- Alvey on the Fraudster

On 4/1/22 3:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 2:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 12:11 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> And it had a rack & pinion, huh? :)
>>
>> Don't think so, it was a mid 60's 420G and they had recirculating ball
>> steering box.
>
> Sorry, I was thinking about the later series which had racks.
>
>> Remember Ron McGrice? It was his Jag, nice car but the steering was
>> woeful.
>
> I'd struggle to use the words "Jaguar" and "nice car" in the same
> sentence :)

LOL, I really like their styling:-)
Oddly enough I had a phone call today asking if I had any ideas why a
mates mates E Type would suddenly stop and won't restart, as you no
doubt know its difficult to diagnose over the phone but I got them to
check a few things and I suspect the coil, it has electronic ignition so
its not points.
>
>>> To each their own, but what you've done here is highlighted the
>>> massive difference in car *setup*. Not component differences.
>>>
>>
>> True, it comes down to how the designers think that their customers
>> would want their steering to feel.
>
> It sounds like Trevor confuses steering feedback with the effort
> required to turn the steering wheel, and the two are not necessarily
> related. There are both brilliant and appallingly shithouse varieties of
> both assisted and manual steering systems.
>
Yes, the way a car feels through the steering is a combination of many
factors, even tyres can make a massive difference.
I once fitted a cheap set of tyres to the XD panelvan I owned, some time
later the car started pulling to the left under brakes, couldn't find
anything wrong with the brakes so I replaced the almost new front tyres
and the problem instantly went away.
When I bought my Benz it was fitted with cheap Chinese tyres, replaced
them with Michelin and it transformed the car.

--
Daryl

On 4/1/22 4:38 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 3:27 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 3:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> It sounds like Trevor confuses steering feedback with the effort
>>> required to turn the steering wheel, and the two are not necessarily
>>> related. There are both brilliant and appallingly shithouse varieties
>>> of both assisted and manual steering systems.
>>
>> **No, Trevor is not confusing the two.
>
> Apologies if that's not the case Trev, but what you seemed to be
> suggesting in your posts was that the quality of "road feel" depended
> entirely on whether power steering was involved, and very definitely is
> not the case.
>
>> The two cars I cited (the Jag and the Merc) were very different. The
>> Jag managed to completely isolate the driver from any road feel,
>> whereas the Merc managed to convey a surprisingly good road feel
>> (almost like my Escort), despite a relatively light steering effort
>> (though not as light as the Jag).
>
> Which in itself is/was due to how they operated their power steering
> systems. One has speed sensitive power steering, and one doesn't.
>
>
>
Could also be the steering geometry.
Not sure what model Jag Trev mentioned but the 450SEL has recirculating
ball steering box so its not as if it has a rack, MB are usually
designed for high speed on German autobarns and you wouldn't want to be
doing 200kph in a car with vague steering.
Older Jags with a few exceptions are more about a comfortable ride than
high speed.

--
Daryl

On 4/1/22 6:08 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 3/01/2022 12:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>> On 2/1/22 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was mentioned
>>> that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive steering than
>>> in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had more lag,
>>> because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this mean that
>>> modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a mechanical connection
>>> to the steering components? (and yes, I know I could google it, but
>>> this gives us something to talk about)
>>
>> two points to note here. Point 1. Pretty much all cars now have rack
>> and pinion steering and power assist. Rack and pinion is generally
>> more direct than, say, recirculating ball steering boxes. 3.5-4 turns
>> lock to lock was common on such *old* steering boxes. The power
>> steering also makes more direct steering possible. Point 2. The *old
>> cars* I grew up with and worked on in my early days in the trade
>> pretty much all had cross ply or bias ply tyres of a reasonably high
>> profile. The sidewise give in the sidewalls along with the very large
>> slip angles produced at the tread guaranteed *lag* and general
>> vagueness in the steering.
>
>
> that all makes sense
>
>
>>
>> Almost forgot, there are no *production* cars that I am aware of that
>> are *steer* by wire beyond some exotic models like the up market
>> Infiniti model and, I think, some models of Tesla. But they are rare.
>> The most common definition and example of *drive by wire* thus far is
>> throttle control by wire. Were they referring to this rather than
>> *steer by wire*? Steer by wire would be considered so rare that you
>> really can't factor it into the accident stats at this point in time.
>> Personally, I like my steering wheel with a *fail safe* connection to
>> the road wheels.
>
>
> maybe I misunderstood then. what is the definition of 'by wire' anyway?
> it's usually a term associated with aircraft. I assume it means no
> direct mechanical connection or linkage, but rather electronic control
> via servo motors or whatever.
>
Easiest way to describe it is by using the throttle by wire concept. The
norm used to be either a cable or mechanical linkage connecting the
drivers foot to the throttle body of the carb. The throttle plate
reacted in direct proportion to your foot's movement at the pedal. That
was a fairly limiting arrangement as the ECU/TCM/BCM couldn't override
your accelerator pedal movements. For instance, if the ECU wanted to
back off the throttle under, say, direction from the traction control
module, it would need to cut power by backing off fuel supply to
injectors, retarding ignition timing, etc.
If, instead of a cable or linkage connecting the driver's foot to the
throttle plate in the throttle body, the pedal box was just an
electrical (or computerised) sensor and the throttle plate connected to
an electrical (or computerised) servo motor, it is possible for, say,
the ECU to back off the throttle even when the driver is requesting full
acceleration. When would this happen? Well, a good example is where you
have the pedal to the metal and you touch the brake, the engine will
lose power. My Toy does that. Another scenario, you are demanding rapid
and full acceleration by stomping on the loud pedal. The TCM might not
like that (prevention of damage to trans or the prevention of tyre
traction loss) so it commands the ECM to intervene and *moderate* the
acceleration request so that it remains within the bounds of the
vehicle's traction ability or mechanical integrity. IOW, you, the
driver, have no direct control over the throttle plate in the throttle body.
The simplest way to look at it on a modern vehicle is that when you do
something *at the controls*, like pressing the accelerator, all you are
doing is *making a request* of the system. If and when any and all
relevant modules OK that request, it will be passed through to, in this
case, the throttle body servo where the request will be acted upon and
the throttle plate opened the required amount or even a modulated
amount. This can become very complex very quickly if you consider other
modules that may be involved in what you see as a simple request for the
car to accelerate. For instance, when you request full power, the system
may disconnect a power sapping device such as an AC compressor. It
will, if an auto trans, lock out the torque converter lockup system and
command a downshift. It may even command a modulation of the level of
assist from the power steering. And all because you pressed the
accelerator quickly.
Last year I had a go at explaining these concepts of drive by wire to my
mate. It took a while, and a lot of explanation. Same a couple of years
earlier when he had a power rack start leaking. He had it dismantled but
had no idea of how that rack worked yet he was a hydraulic specialist
albeit in the industrial field. I went through how the spool valve
worked, all the hydraulic flows, how the required amount of assist was
sensed, and much more. Once he knew that, he had the rack rebuilt in no
time.
>
>>>
>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as the
>>> reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster, unlike
>>> historically when there was a more delayed response. so for example
>>> violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision will have an
>>> immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the vehicle, like a
>>> roll over for example.
>>>
>> If you are used to the car, this shouldn't be an issue. That said,
>> some car suspensions are mismatched to the tyres - even OEM factory
>> fitted tyres. That can lead to the yaw frequency matching the
>> suspension frequency. That's what happened with the A Class Benz when
>> it was first released, the motoring journalists rolled one on a demo
>> day. The first fix item on the agenda was to stiffen the suspension in
>> roll so that it was impossible for the driver to switch from one lock
>> to the other fast enough to get into phase with the side to side
>> rocking of the body. Other changes included widening of the rear
>> track, stiffer front anti-roll bar, smaller rolling radius tyres and
>> default standard OEM fitment of ESP (stability control).
>>
>> The downside to those mods was a noticeably more harsh ride. Remember
>> what you complained about on your MG? There was probably a very good
>> reason why the ride on that car was harsh and it had to do with
>> maintaining stability under the sort of movements, like the *Elk
>> Test*, that the A Class came to grief with.
>
>
> rather surprising that Mercedes Benz would get it wrong
>
Indeed, it was surprising. The simple fact of the matter was that they
tried to make the A Class a nice smooth ride. The compromise on
handling, however, was a step too far. Spring rates, not a simple
concept to understand when you factor it into a vehicle's handling.
>
>>
>> What people don't often realise is that handling, braking,
>> performance, etc, in modern cars is *still* a mass of compromises.
>> Sure, the manufacturer can make you a car that handles like a race car
>> but it sure won't be a *comfortable boulevard cruiser* if they do that.
>>
>

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 4/01/2022 10:32 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 4/1/22 3:20 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> I'd struggle to use the words "Jaguar" and "nice car" in the same
>> sentence :)
>
> LOL, I really like their styling:-)

I like _some_.

I always loved the D type as one of the sexiest cars ever made, and the
XK120 was just pretty. But I never liked the E type. I always thought it
looked wrong. Well, I *used* to, but these days I find them less
offensive than in the past. I'm mellowing as I get older :)

> Oddly enough I had a phone call today asking if I had any ideas why a
> mates mates E Type would suddenly stop and won't restart, as you no
> doubt know its difficult to diagnose over the phone but I got them to
> check a few things and I suspect the coil, it has electronic ignition so
> its not points.

Could be anything. Does it have an electric fuel pump?

>> It sounds like Trevor confuses steering feedback with the effort
>> required to turn the steering wheel, and the two are not necessarily
>> related. There are both brilliant and appallingly shithouse varieties
>> of both assisted and manual steering systems.
>>
> Yes, the way a car feels through the steering is a combination of many
> factors, even tyres can make a massive difference.
> I once fitted a cheap set of tyres to the XD panelvan I owned, some time
> later the car started pulling to the left under brakes, couldn't find
> anything wrong with the brakes so I replaced the almost new front tyres
> and the problem instantly went away.
> When I bought my Benz it was fitted with cheap Chinese tyres, replaced
> them with Michelin and it transformed the car.

Tyres make a massive difference.

It would be interesting to take someone like Trevor and put him in an
average car with average tyres and ask him to have a fang and see what
he thinks of it. Actually, he mentioned a VP Commodore and wasn't overly
impressed by them, so stick him in one of those and get him to do a lap
around a closed circuit and get his review of the steering after he'd
finished the lap.

When he's finished, get him to go for a Tosca while you "make some
adjustments". Run the car into the garage and replace the average tyres
with a set of slicks (without telling Trev, of course) and then have him
take the car out for another lap and see what he has to say this time
around.

I'm betting he would be overwhelmingly impressed and say that the
steering was much more precise and direct and quite a dramatic
improvement over the previous setup even though the steering was exactly
the same and the only thing that was changed was the degree of
mechanical grip :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 4/1/22 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 10:32 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 3:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> I'd struggle to use the words "Jaguar" and "nice car" in the same
>>> sentence :)
>>
>> LOL, I really like their styling:-)
>
> I like _some_.
>
> I always loved the D type as one of the sexiest cars ever made, and the
> XK120 was just pretty. But I never liked the E type. I always thought it
> looked wrong. Well, I *used* to, but these days I find them less
> offensive than in the past. I'm mellowing as I get older :)
>
>> Oddly enough I had a phone call today asking if I had any ideas why a
>> mates mates E Type would suddenly stop and won't restart, as you no
>> doubt know its difficult to diagnose over the phone but I got them to
>> check a few things and I suspect the coil, it has electronic ignition
>> so its not points.
>
> Could be anything. Does it have an electric fuel pump?

Yes but I got them to test it by removing and emptying its glass fuel
bowl and then turning the key and bowl refilled.
They also tested the spark and it appears to not have any.
Did a rough coil test with a multi meter (they didn't have a test light)
across the 2 terminals whilst cranking, AFAIK the voltage should go up
to 12v then back to zero but it did nothing staying at zero so either
the coil is faulty or the trigger in the dizzy is faulty.
With the dizzy cap removed it looks like this,
https://www.scparts.co.uk/sc_en/warehouse/tuning-internal-and-external-fixtures/electronic-ignition-systems/123-ignition-systems.html
>
>>> It sounds like Trevor confuses steering feedback with the effort
>>> required to turn the steering wheel, and the two are not necessarily
>>> related. There are both brilliant and appallingly shithouse varieties
>>> of both assisted and manual steering systems.
>>>
>> Yes, the way a car feels through the steering is a combination of many
>> factors, even tyres can make a massive difference.
>> I once fitted a cheap set of tyres to the XD panelvan I owned, some
>> time later the car started pulling to the left under brakes, couldn't
>> find anything wrong with the brakes so I replaced the almost new front
>> tyres and the problem instantly went away.
>> When I bought my Benz it was fitted with cheap Chinese tyres, replaced
>> them with Michelin and it transformed the car.
>
> Tyres make a massive difference.
>
> It would be interesting to take someone like Trevor and put him in an
> average car with average tyres and ask him to have a fang and see what
> he thinks of it. Actually, he mentioned a VP Commodore and wasn't overly
> impressed by them, so stick him in one of those and get him to do a lap
> around a closed circuit and get his review of the steering after he'd
> finished the lap.
>
> When he's finished, get him to go for a Tosca while you "make some
> adjustments". Run the car into the garage and replace the average tyres
> with a set of slicks (without telling Trev, of course) and then have him
> take the car out for another lap and see what he has to say this time
> around.
>
> I'm betting he would be overwhelmingly impressed and say that the
> steering was much more precise and direct and quite a dramatic
> improvement over the previous setup even though the steering was exactly
> the same and the only thing that was changed was the degree of
> mechanical grip :)
>

LOL, slicks would make a huge difference but even they can be fickle if
they aren't at the right temp but once they are up to temp the
difference in grip and feel will be huge.

--
Daryl

On 5/01/2022 8:48 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 4/1/22 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:

>>
>> Could be anything. Does it have an electric fuel pump?
>
> Yes but I got them to test it by removing and emptying its glass fuel
> bowl and then turning the key and bowl refilled.
> They also tested the spark and it appears to not have any.
> Did a rough coil test with a multi meter (they didn't have a test light)
> across the 2 terminals whilst cranking, AFAIK the voltage should go up
> to 12v then back to zero but it did nothing staying at zero so either
> the coil is faulty or the trigger in the dizzy is faulty.
> With the dizzy cap removed it looks like this,
> https://www.scparts.co.uk/sc_en/warehouse/tuning-internal-and-external-fixtures/electronic-ignition-systems/123-ignition-systems.html

Can't really tell much from the pic, but after-market distributors with
their own inbuilt "Chinese" made ignition modules are incredibly hit and
miss as I've recently discovered. I'd try replacing the coil first as
the simplest option, but if that doesn't work it'll be the module.

If it's a multi pole reluctor type distributor (It looks like it might
be) then rather than replace the module with another one I'd fit an
external one like I did. Either a GM HEI or a Bosch 025 which you can
get from any auto elec. Wire it up like this:

> http://dtec.net.au/images/Ignition%20upgrade/High%20E5.jpg

In that diagram they're running shielded cable from the distributor and
earthing it to the module which you don't need to do, and while the
distributor's magnetic pickup wires will connect either way the engine
will only run right with them connected one way so you'll soon know if
you need to swap the connections.

You by-pass the crappy electronics in the distributor but still use the
dizzy's mechanical components to control the timing curve. Works fantastic.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 5/1/22 9:27 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 5/01/2022 8:48 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Could be anything. Does it have an electric fuel pump?
>>
>> Yes but I got them to test it by removing and emptying its glass fuel
>> bowl and then turning the key and bowl refilled.
>> They also tested the spark and it appears to not have any.
>> Did a rough coil test with a multi meter (they didn't have a test
>> light) across the 2 terminals whilst cranking, AFAIK the voltage
>> should go up to 12v then back to zero but it did nothing staying at
>> zero so either the coil is faulty or the trigger in the dizzy is faulty.
>> With the dizzy cap removed it looks like this,
>> https://www.scparts.co.uk/sc_en/warehouse/tuning-internal-and-external-fixtures/electronic-ignition-systems/123-ignition-systems.html
>
>
> Can't really tell much from the pic, but after-market distributors with
> their own inbuilt "Chinese" made ignition modules are incredibly hit and
> miss as I've recently discovered. I'd try replacing the coil first as
> the simplest option, but if that doesn't work it'll be the module.
>
> If it's a multi pole reluctor type distributor (It looks like it might
> be) then rather than replace the module with another one I'd fit an
> external one like I did. Either a GM HEI or a Bosch 025 which you can
> get from any auto elec. Wire it up like this:
>
>> http://dtec.net.au/images/Ignition%20upgrade/High%20E5.jpg
>
> In that diagram they're running shielded cable from the distributor and
> earthing it to the module which you don't need to do, and while the
> distributor's magnetic pickup wires will connect either way the engine
> will only run right with them connected one way so you'll soon know if
> you need to swap the connections.
>
> You by-pass the crappy electronics in the distributor but still use the
> dizzy's mechanical components to control the timing curve. Works fantastic.
>
>
>
>
>
Good idea, if I get the job of fixing it I will suggest that.

--
Daryl

On 4/01/2022 12:54 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 4/1/22 12:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>
>>>
>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic
>>> power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY
>>> vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so
>>> don't take it too seriously, unless someone with real knowledge can
>>> back the claim.
>>
>> Yeah, it's rubbish. As long as the pump is providing fluid pressure
>> and the system is working as it's supposed to be, they don't run out
>> of assistance.
>>
>>> UNless the electrical system fails, electric power steering never
>>> runs out of juice.
>>
>> Electric power steering systems aren't without their faults either,
>> and there's been some infamous issues with it. Most notably was the
>> one in the US about a decade ago that affected Toyota Corollas. The
>> cars had a bug whereby the electric power steering system would
>> suddenly and unexpectedly pull on full right or left lock at freeway
>> speeds which resulted in a number of people being killed in the
>> resulting accidents and Toyota recalling millions of vehicles.
>>
>> Hydraulic power steering would have a hard time ever doing that.
>
> Ah Darren, always the bullshit artist. Can't help yourself, can you?
>
> Here's a reality check for you.
>
> https://www.torquenews.com/106/nhtsa-closes-investigation-toyota-corolla-steering-systems
>
>
> No mention of people killed or injured in the case of this fault
> Darren. Please explain.
>
>

and no recall either

--
"his opinions have been crushed into insignificant dust by
the enormous weight of his lies"- Alvey on the Fraudster

On 5/1/22 2:43 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 12:54 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 12:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 4/01/2022 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>>>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>>>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic
>>>> power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY
>>>> vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so
>>>> don't take it too seriously, unless someone with real knowledge can
>>>> back the claim.
>>>
>>> Yeah, it's rubbish. As long as the pump is providing fluid pressure
>>> and the system is working as it's supposed to be, they don't run out
>>> of assistance.
>>>
>>>> UNless the electrical system fails, electric power steering never
>>>> runs out of juice.
>>>
>>> Electric power steering systems aren't without their faults either,
>>> and there's been some infamous issues with it. Most notably was the
>>> one in the US about a decade ago that affected Toyota Corollas. The
>>> cars had a bug whereby the electric power steering system would
>>> suddenly and unexpectedly pull on full right or left lock at freeway
>>> speeds which resulted in a number of people being killed in the
>>> resulting accidents and Toyota recalling millions of vehicles.
>>>
>>> Hydraulic power steering would have a hard time ever doing that.
>>
>> Ah Darren, always the bullshit artist. Can't help yourself, can you?
>>
>> Here's a reality check for you.
>>
>> https://www.torquenews.com/106/nhtsa-closes-investigation-toyota-corolla-steering-systems
>>
>>
>> No mention of people killed or injured in the case of this fault
>> Darren. Please explain.
>>
>>
>
> and no recall either
>
That's right. I forgot about that *lie* Darren tried to pass off.
Debunked his whole load of bullshit in just one link! LOL

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 4/01/2022 11:06 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 4/1/22 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>>> On 4/1/22 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On radio this morning, cars were being discussed and it was
>>>>> mentioned that modern cars have more direct/positive/responsive
>>>>> steering than in days gone by, when steering was more slack and had
>>>>> more lag, because they have ' drive by wire' steering. ?? does this
>>>>> mean that modern cars don't have a steering column? ie. a
>>>>> mechanical connection to the steering components? (and yes, I know
>>>>> I could google it, but this gives us something to talk about)
>>>>>
>>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>>>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>>>
>>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>>>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic
>>>> power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY
>>>> vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so
>>>> don't take it too
>>>
>>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may
>>> be possible.
>>
>> **OK, this is going back many years, but part of the reason why power
>> steer was not using on racing cars, was the possibility that the
>> hydraulics would run out of puff. That and the need for better road
>> feel inherent to non-assisted designs. At least that was my recollection.
>>
> Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly do.
> Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick tyres
> and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
> Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they don't
> need it.
>
The last F1 car not to have PS was the Minardi, that Mark Webber started
out in. They simply couldn't afford it.

On 6/1/22 8:38 pm, keithr0 wrote:

>> Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly do.
>> Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick
>> tyres and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
>> Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they
>> don't need it.
>>
> The last F1 car not to have PS was the Minardi, that Mark Webber started
> out in. They simply couldn't afford it.

LOL, that wouldn't surprise, they were certainly a low budget team.

--
Daryl

On 6/01/2022 8:38 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 11:06 am, Daryl wrote:

>> Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly do.
>> Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick
>> tyres and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
>> Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they
>> don't need it.
>>
> The last F1 car not to have PS was the Minardi, that Mark Webber started
> out in. They simply couldn't afford it.

Another in the long line of motor racing old wives tales :)

The Minardi you're talking about was the PS02 model that started the
2002 season with Webber as a driver, and while it didn't have power
steering at the beginning of the season it was implemented as the season
progressed.

> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/41188/1/minardi-to-benefit-from-new-steering-system

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On Fri, 7 Jan 2022 11:14:16 +1100, Noddy wrote:

> On 6/01/2022 8:38 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 11:06 am, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly do.
>>> Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick
>>> tyres and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
>>> Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they
>>> don't need it.
>>>
>> The last F1 car not to have PS was the Minardi, that Mark Webber started
>> out in. They simply couldn't afford it.
>
> Another in the long line of motor racing old wives tales :)
>
> The Minardi you're talking about was the PS02 model that started the
> 2002 season with Webber as a driver, and while it didn't have power
> steering at the beginning of the season it was implemented as the season
> progressed.
>
>> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/41188/1/minardi-to-benefit-from-new-steering-system

Interesting.

Would I be correct in stating that;

1) What the Fraudster has written in no way contradicts what keith said.
2) The piece Fraudster is quoting does not prove that Minardi actually
implemented. The pertinent phrase being, "KL Minardi Asiatech today
announces that it is to develop power-assisted steering...".

alvey
"Fair dimkum, this useless piece of unicorn riding shit couldn't
comprehend basic language if you wrote it on a cricket bat and smashed
him in the face with it."

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 4/01/2022 1:05 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 4/1/22 12:41 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may
>>>> be possible.
>>
>> More amusing cluelessness from the "teacher" who failed carburetor and
>> brake system 101. Do yourself a favour and take whatever this moron
>> claims with a grain of salt Trevor, as he has absolutely *no idea*
>> what he's talking about :)
>
> Ah Darren, I see I am still getting under your skin. Please note, I said
> *i* couldn't see the issue happening, all I did was allow for the
> possibility.

It's the scientific approach vs Derro's dumb as a munt approach that has
worked so well for him in the past... not :-)

On 5/01/2022 11:43 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 12:54 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 12:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 4/01/2022 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>>>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>>>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic
>>>> power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY
>>>> vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so
>>>> don't take it too seriously, unless someone with real knowledge can
>>>> back the claim.
>>>
>>> Yeah, it's rubbish. As long as the pump is providing fluid pressure
>>> and the system is working as it's supposed to be, they don't run out
>>> of assistance.
>>>
>>>> UNless the electrical system fails, electric power steering never
>>>> runs out of juice.
>>>
>>> Electric power steering systems aren't without their faults either,
>>> and there's been some infamous issues with it. Most notably was the
>>> one in the US about a decade ago that affected Toyota Corollas. The
>>> cars had a bug whereby the electric power steering system would
>>> suddenly and unexpectedly pull on full right or left lock at freeway
>>> speeds which resulted in a number of people being killed in the
>>> resulting accidents and Toyota recalling millions of vehicles.
>>>
>>> Hydraulic power steering would have a hard time ever doing that.
>>
>> Ah Darren, always the bullshit artist. Can't help yourself, can you?
>>
>> Here's a reality check for you.
>>
>> https://www.torquenews.com/106/nhtsa-closes-investigation-toyota-corolla-steering-systems
>>
>>
>> No mention of people killed or injured in the case of this fault
>> Darren. Please explain.
>>
>>
>
> and no recall either
>

He just piles on the lies... it never ends.

On 7/1/22 12:37 pm, Clocky wrote:
> On 5/01/2022 11:43 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 12:54 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>> On 4/1/22 12:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 4/01/2022 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so for
>>>>>> example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a collision
>>>>>> will have an immediate effect, causing a severe reaction of the
>>>>>> vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was the
>>>>> first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will be
>>>>> corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that hydraulic
>>>>> power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if used VERY
>>>>> vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's tale, so
>>>>> don't take it too seriously, unless someone with real knowledge can
>>>>> back the claim.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, it's rubbish. As long as the pump is providing fluid pressure
>>>> and the system is working as it's supposed to be, they don't run out
>>>> of assistance.
>>>>
>>>>> UNless the electrical system fails, electric power steering never
>>>>> runs out of juice.
>>>>
>>>> Electric power steering systems aren't without their faults either,
>>>> and there's been some infamous issues with it. Most notably was the
>>>> one in the US about a decade ago that affected Toyota Corollas. The
>>>> cars had a bug whereby the electric power steering system would
>>>> suddenly and unexpectedly pull on full right or left lock at freeway
>>>> speeds which resulted in a number of people being killed in the
>>>> resulting accidents and Toyota recalling millions of vehicles.
>>>>
>>>> Hydraulic power steering would have a hard time ever doing that.
>>>
>>> Ah Darren, always the bullshit artist. Can't help yourself, can you?
>>>
>>> Here's a reality check for you.
>>>
>>> https://www.torquenews.com/106/nhtsa-closes-investigation-toyota-corolla-steering-systems
>>>
>>>
>>> No mention of people killed or injured in the case of this fault
>>> Darren. Please explain.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> and no recall either
>>
>
> He just piles on the lies... it never ends.
>
Darren seems to assume everyone else has research and comprehensions
skills that are worse than his. Boy, do I have news for him. He just
proved how bad his research and comprehension skills are with his
attempt to slag Toyotas off.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 7/01/2022 8:14 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 6/01/2022 8:38 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 11:06 am, Daryl wrote:
>
>>> Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly do.
>>> Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick
>>> tyres and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
>>> Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they
>>> don't need it.
>>>
>> The last F1 car not to have PS was the Minardi, that Mark Webber
>> started out in. They simply couldn't afford it.
>
> Another in the long line of motor racing old wives tales :)
>

You had to Google it.

> The Minardi you're talking about was the PS02 model that started the
> 2002 season with Webber as a driver, and while it didn't have power
> steering at the beginning of the season it was implemented as the season
> progressed.
>
>> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/41188/1/minardi-to-benefit-from-new-steering-system
>>

How does your link prove it's an "old wives tale" exactly?

On 7/1/22 11:34 am, Clocky wrote:
> On 4/01/2022 1:05 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 4/1/22 12:41 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 4/01/2022 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it may
>>>>> be possible.
>>>
>>> More amusing cluelessness from the "teacher" who failed carburetor
>>> and brake system 101. Do yourself a favour and take whatever this
>>> moron claims with a grain of salt Trevor, as he has absolutely *no
>>> idea* what he's talking about :)
>>
>> Ah Darren, I see I am still getting under your skin. Please note, I
>> said *i* couldn't see the issue happening, all I did was allow for the
>> possibility.
>
> It's the scientific approach vs Derro's dumb as a munt approach that has
> worked so well for him in the past... not :-)

Well, shockers will lose efficiency when the vehicle is driven over the
rough stuff and the fluid overheats and becomes aerated. Thus it *might*
be possible for the power steering to do the same. That said, and as I
pointed out, *I* have never heard of it nor, for that matter, have I
ever experienced it. Darren's just trying to make points when he's dead
set onto a loser play.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 7/01/2022 10:27 am, Xeno wrote:
> On 7/1/22 12:37 pm, Clocky wrote:
>> On 5/01/2022 11:43 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>> On 4/01/2022 12:54 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>>> On 4/1/22 12:20 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 4/01/2022 6:25 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/01/2022 6:56 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was also said that modern steering is a cause of accidents, as
>>>>>>> the reaction of the vehicle to steering wheel movement is faster,
>>>>>>> unlike historically when there was a more delayed response. so
>>>>>>> for example violently moving the steering wheel to avoid a
>>>>>>> collision will have an immediate effect, causing a severe
>>>>>>> reaction of the vehicle, like a roll over for example.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **OH, a couple more things. Honda was not the first with electric
>>>>>> power steering. However, the NSX was very well resolved. The first
>>>>>> electric power steering system was patented in 1903. Suzuki was
>>>>>> the first modern manufacturer to use electric power steering in 1988.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Apart from cost and the ability to integrate with safety systems,
>>>>>> electric power steering has one other advantage. I'm sure I will
>>>>>> be corrected on this, but I recall reading somewhere that
>>>>>> hydraulic power steering systems can 'run out' of assistance, if
>>>>>> used VERY vigorously and for long periods. Could be an old wive's
>>>>>> tale, so don't take it too seriously, unless someone with real
>>>>>> knowledge can back the claim.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, it's rubbish. As long as the pump is providing fluid pressure
>>>>> and the system is working as it's supposed to be, they don't run
>>>>> out of assistance.
>>>>>
>>>>>> UNless the electrical system fails, electric power steering never
>>>>>> runs out of juice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Electric power steering systems aren't without their faults either,
>>>>> and there's been some infamous issues with it. Most notably was the
>>>>> one in the US about a decade ago that affected Toyota Corollas. The
>>>>> cars had a bug whereby the electric power steering system would
>>>>> suddenly and unexpectedly pull on full right or left lock at
>>>>> freeway speeds which resulted in a number of people being killed in
>>>>> the resulting accidents and Toyota recalling millions of vehicles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hydraulic power steering would have a hard time ever doing that.
>>>>
>>>> Ah Darren, always the bullshit artist. Can't help yourself, can you?
>>>>
>>>> Here's a reality check for you.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.torquenews.com/106/nhtsa-closes-investigation-toyota-corolla-steering-systems
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No mention of people killed or injured in the case of this fault
>>>> Darren. Please explain.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> and no recall either
>>>
>>
>> He just piles on the lies... it never ends.
>>
> Darren seems to assume everyone else has research and comprehensions
> skills that are worse than his. Boy, do I have news for him. He just
> proved how bad his research and comprehension skills are with his
> attempt to slag Toyotas off.
>
>

He's only slagging off Toyota because I/we own one. It would matter what
we owned he would find reason to slag it off... if not make or model it
would be size or luxury level, price or something else.

On 7/01/2022 10:34 am, Xeno wrote:
> On 7/1/22 11:34 am, Clocky wrote:
>> On 4/01/2022 1:05 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>> On 4/1/22 12:41 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 4/01/2022 11:16 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 4/01/2022 11:11 am, Xeno wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Never heard of that cause of *running out of assistance* but it
>>>>>> may be possible.
>>>>
>>>> More amusing cluelessness from the "teacher" who failed carburetor
>>>> and brake system 101. Do yourself a favour and take whatever this
>>>> moron claims with a grain of salt Trevor, as he has absolutely *no
>>>> idea* what he's talking about :)
>>>
>>> Ah Darren, I see I am still getting under your skin. Please note, I
>>> said *i* couldn't see the issue happening, all I did was allow for
>>> the possibility.
>>
>> It's the scientific approach vs Derro's dumb as a munt approach that
>> has worked so well for him in the past... not :-)
>
> Well, shockers will lose efficiency when the vehicle is driven over the
> rough stuff and the fluid overheats and becomes aerated. Thus it *might*
> be possible for the power steering to do the same. That said, and as I
> pointed out, *I* have never heard of it nor, for that matter, have I
> ever experienced it. Darren's just trying to make points when he's dead
> set onto a loser play.
>

Empty points. He's just trying to create a strawman so he can have
another long winded vein bulging rant about someone he claims doesn't
give a shit about.

On 7/1/22 1:33 pm, Clocky wrote:
> On 7/01/2022 8:14 am, Noddy wrote:
>> On 6/01/2022 8:38 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 4/01/2022 11:06 am, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>> Except that many race cars do have PS, F1 and V8 Supercars certainly
>>>> do.
>>>> Imagine trying to steer those cars with the very wide sticky slick
>>>> tyres and high down force without PS, it would be near impossible.
>>>> Very light race cars such as Lotus 7's don't have PS because they
>>>> don't need it.
>>>>
>>> The last F1 car not to have PS was the Minardi, that Mark Webber
>>> started out in. They simply couldn't afford it.
>>
>> Another in the long line of motor racing old wives tales :)
>>
>
> You had to Google it.
>
>> The Minardi you're talking about was the PS02 model that started the
>> 2002 season with Webber as a driver, and while it didn't have power
>> steering at the beginning of the season it was implemented as the
>> season progressed.
>>
>>> https://www.crash.net/f1/news/41188/1/minardi-to-benefit-from-new-steering-system
>>>
>
> How does your link prove it's an "old wives tale" exactly?
>
>
Darren's link, and it's a solitary one, doesn't mention if the
development actually led to PS being fitted. Talk is cheap, as Darren
should well know.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)